UA Barbarian - Thoughts and Feedback

[Dr.Samurai]

The UA thread is mostly centered on changes to the warlock and wizard, so I thought a thread for people that like barbarians might be in order.

My first impressions are that this isn't going to make anyone that doesn't already want to play a barbarian play a barbarian. For those of us that like playing barbarians, I'm not sure. There are some advantages here, but I don't know if it's worth the changes to or loss of some features.

Rage - So this has been changed to last until your next turn and you have to actively keep it going by either attacking or forcing a saving throw, or using your bonus action. This is similar to how it's worded now though the addition of the bonus action to extend it is welcomed. Love that forcing a saving throw extends the Rage, and also that the rage bonus damage applies to any attack made with Strength, not just melee attacks. I would have liked to see Rage uses increase, and the damage scale up more quickly. And taking damage extend the Rage as well.

Unarmored Defense - I don't think anyone was expecting a chance to this. I would have loved to see it operate based off Strength to make the unarmored trope more viable without rolling for stats, but it is what it is. No big deal.

Weapon Mastery - Some pretty big utility here. I'm not sure how to rate this because it's sort of two systems in one (weapon system+class use). It's a buff obviously, as my previous barbarian would be TWF with a d10 and a d8, and my current barbarian will be forcing a Con save with each hit to knock the enemy prone. My issue I think is, as good as some of these might be (Topple, Cleave, and Push are great), something about the implementation seems off to me. I'm not crazy about it. Seems like... really cheap, I guess, or unimaginative. Not sure. Still have to think on it. I do like the idea of cleaving into enemies with a Greataxe though.

Reckless Attack - This needs to change to include all attacks you make until the start of your next turn. It doesn't make sense that your reckless fighting impacts your attacks on your turn, and all attacks against you for the round, but not your off-turn attacks.

Primal Knowledge - I really like that they're trying to give the barbarian some love outside of combat. I'm not sure this is the right way to do it. With no increase in Rage uses per day, it's a big ask to require a use of Rage to make use of these benefits. If the DM doesn't track time, then it can maybe be useful. But our DM does track time, and 10 minutes goes by very quickly. The PHB says it might take ten minutes to check a room for anything interesting or valuable. Using your Rage to Stealth, or roll Perception can wind up with 1 less Rage for combat, easily. And sicne most of your combat abilities key off of Rage, you're actually losing a lot to make these skill checks as Strength checks.

In each of my games, there's someone to handle dex checks, wisdom checks, charisma checks, etc. I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth, I want to be good at some of these skills, it fits the archetype. But I don't NEED to use a Rage to cover these skills, because someone else can generally do it. Stealth is the exception, as it depends on whether you use Group checks or not. Still, Prof+2 is not terrible for Stealth.

One of the big reasons I like the barbarian is because of how passive most of its abilities are. I just have to Rage when I go into combat, and from then on it's about what to do with my Action. Adding this other use case for Rage adds more thinking and decision-making that I'm not really interested in doing.

I think the barbarian should just have Advantage on Strength checks all the time as a passive ability. This will help with out of combat uses, as well as swimming, climbing, and jumping (when needed). The barbarian should just be better at this than other characters and shouldn't have to use a valuable Rage just for advantage on Strength checks. With regards to the other checks, maybe either adding your Strength mod to the checks (similar to Fey Wanderer's ability) or add your Rage Damage to the check (without needing to Rage). You can separate the bonus damage from Rage, and track it as a Primal Bonus. When raging add it to damage, when making a Perception, Intimidation, Survival, Acrobatics, or Stealth check, add it to the check. It's not as strong as Primal Knowledge is now, but it's always on.

Level 5 - Here you still get Extra Attack and Fast Movement. However, the barbarian has lost 2 awesome features and had one bump all the way to level 7. If we look at the Fighter, at this level the fighter gets Extra Attack + a whole other feat. So I think we can put something else here. I think Instinctive Pounce would work here. Since Tasha's, I have enjoyed Instinctive Pounce immensely and I think it really fits the flavor of the class. +10 Speed is nice, definitely not crapping on that, but it's not worth an entire feat, so we can afford to put something else here.

Feral Instinct - I'm not crazy about Danger Sense getting moved all the way up here, but combined with Primal Knowledge (and Weapon Mastery at level 1) would make the barbarian way more frontloaded than it already is. However, I really hate losing Immunity to Surprise. Again, I consider this pretty iconic for the barbarian. He may not be a technical fighter, but he's always ready for action and it's very difficult to get the drop on him. Not sure why this had to go, and I think it should be added back in. Current Feral Instinct with Instinctive Pounce is a great combination of abilities and thematic for the barb.

Indomitable Might - Moving it up earlier in the class is a great idea. I almost feel like this is something the barbarians should have even sooner. But always on Advantage at levels 1 or 2 can work until you get this at 9. This might keep me in barbarian for another level instead of mulitclassing out at 8.

Brutal Critical - Well, there goes all of those anemic "critical" hits whenever I roll a 1 or 2 for my extra die. This is a buff. But it's also boring and lame. At this level you're contending with 6th level spells and the fighter's extra attack, and the paladin's always on radiant damage, etc. Barbarian needs something else. Increase the crit range, grant an attack (as part of same action) when you crit, debuff the enemy (all attacks have advantage or deal double damage until start of enemy's turn) etc. Do something interesting and flavorful. I like that this is more consistent crit damage but it's not enough at these levels.

Persistent/Relentless Rage are fine. Persistent seems kind of redundant given the new Rage mechanics so I feel we can fit more in.

Rage Resurgence can come online earlier I think.

Primal Champion did not need a nerf, at all. Needs to be stronger. Again, Fighter gets another attack. +2 Str/Con is not enough. Get creative.

There still seems to me to be a lot of space to add useful features here. Mighty Impel is a great feature they should nab from the UA subclass and tack on to the new barbarian. Something like the Standing Leap feature that some monsters have would be nice for some John Carter of Mars/Hulk leaps and improved mobility.

My current level 5 barbarian would lose Danger Sense, but gain Primal Knowledge and Topple. I'd likely never use Primal Knowledge, but Topple would be very powerful (though we are fighting demons with high strength and constitution, but still). My previous barbarian would lose Instinctive Pounce and Immunity to Surprise but would gain Primal Knowledge and +1 damage from Flex. We rolled for stats in that game, so coupled with not wanting to use my Rages out of combat, I probably wouldn't use Primal Knowledge.

So for me this is sort of meh, but I can see what they're going for. But I feel like it still needs tweaking. Though I'm probably in the minority for players that like passive abilities or are willing to use Rage for stuff other than combat.

Berserker

Frenzy - Not a fan at all. Of course I love that they removed Exhaustion as a penalty. But replacing the bonus action attack with 1/turn bonus damage is again boring and lazy. Martials need help, and while the bonus action attack can obviously lend to damage (this is always going to be it's primary use), allowing the Berserker to take any action but still attack as a bonus action provided it with great flexibility and versatility, especially when it comes to mobility. This bonus damage is a very poor replacement. I would keep it as a bonus action, but let it trigger with the bonus action to Rage, so there isn't a delay. The current UA barbarian can extend Rage with a bonus action. The berserker can attack as a bonus action, so gets to keep up the pressure if they want to do something else with their action. If it's too strong at level 3, remove the ability score mod, then add it at level 6.

Mindless Rage - Good change.

Retaliation - I'm very conflicted here. First, I like that you get it at level 10 now. I think it needs to work within Reach, not just 5ft. And it should benefit from Reckless Attack (change Reckless Attack!). Apart from that I'm fine, but for the fact I think Intimidating Presence at level 14 is too late.

Intimidating Presence - First let me say I do not mind the original Intimidating Presence. Yes, being based on Charisma limits who you can succeed in intimidating, but it's a myth to say it's useless or will never work. Second, I really like using it out of combat, because it's a great way for the barbarian to engage in a social encounter without being the party face. But having an Intimidating Presence and Frightening someone (just by sitting behind the bard all relaxed peeling an apple with your dagger), you are imposing Disadvantage on the enemy's Deception (for lying to the party), Insight (for catching the party's lies), and Perception checks (to catch the party's Stealth or Sleight of Hand). It's a really fun and neat ability that is very thematic to the big strong silent type that just unnerves people by being around. The barbarian isn't making a Persuasion check, but the guy talking to the bard is having trouble lying because his teeth are chattering from fright. In combat, this ability gets a lot of flack for requiring an Action to keep up, but after the first save there is no other save. When combined with Frenzy, you can still attack while keeping the enemy from advancing (or if backed up to a wall, from moving at all). It's a powerful debuff that they have trouble shaking if they fail their first save.

This new ability hits more targets, which is awesome, and is Strength based. But it allows a save each turn, and having only 1 use a day means you're probably not going to use it out of combat. So, I'm not a fan of this change, though I recognize it has much more utility in combat.

Thoughts?

[Theodoxus]

I still think making Rage a short rest recharge, and not increasing uses would be the best option. But then, I'm also on the side that thinks having no short rest resources on a class is bad design.

I heartily agree about Reckless Attack, to the point that I changed it to 'until your next turn' a long time ago, and had to re-read my PHB to see that it's actually a handwritten margin note, and not the rule.

Frenzy is another one that I just removed the whole exhaustion schtick. So, I'd probably re-port my version of Frenzy back into the D&DOne version if this UA ability makes the cut to production.

I'm very curious about how they're modding the other subclasses - not just for barbi, but all of them. Getting only one point on the grid makes it impossible to triangulate where they're trending with the changes.

[Amechra]

Ignoring the Berserker (mostly because I've never played one), I rather like all the changes. I agree that they haven't gone hard enough with some of them (Barbarians still need some love at higher levels, and Reckless Attack needs to last until the beginning of your next turn)... but broadly speaking the changes are good. Your attack-boosting class features now applying to thrown weapons was much needed.

I also think that Primal Knowledge is one of those features that's hard to evaluate outside of a given table, since it's such a "back pocket" ability (you don't need it all the time, but you're really happy to have it when you need it). There are going to be less-combat-focused days where having the ability to burn a use of Rage to hyper-boost your Stealth checks so you can accompany the Rogue when scouting is going to come in clutch. Advantage + Indomitable Might is actually a really strong boost, and being able to apply it to skills other Athletics is nice. I do wonder why they went with those skills, though — at first I thought the idea was that you could boost all of your Barbarian skills, but then I checked and only three of the five skills are on the Barbarian list. I wonder if we're going to see subclasses that let Primal Knowledge apply to other skills — Totem Barbarians might be able to use Primal Knowledge with Animal Handling, for example.

I agree that the Primal Champion nerf is lame, but at least we get the cap-breaking Strength a little earlier? I dunno.

Some other things on my wishlist for the Barbarian:



Some more features that help you feel super-humanly strong. Stuff like:

Powerful Build or some equivalent at some point. My personal houserules let Barbarians add their Strength and Constitution together for the purposes of carry capacity, but I'd take anything that lets me carry a ton of stuff.
Something that boosts the range of thrown weapons. If Barbarians are going to be relying on thrown weapons for range, I'd like to see them reach shortbow ranges at the very least.
At some point, remove the size limit on grapples and shoves. Let me chokeslam a dragon, dang it!


At some point, extend Rage so that it lasts a full hour. That would very much help the "not enough uses" problem without needing to actually give them more uses.

More uses would be fine too. I wouldn't complain.


A boost to Brutal Critical — I like the idea of Frightening creatures when you crit, because people just watched you smack someone so dang hard.

An alternative would be to have the Barbarian drop people with non-crits at [Barbarian Level] HP instead of 0 HP. If a 12th level Barbarian hits you and reduces your HP to 10, you're actually at 0 HP. Crits just treat that "virtual damage" like actual damage.

[Kane0]

I view this incarnation as a sidegrade really. Stuff has been polished, but the Barbarian is still pretty much doing the same stuff and it all revolves around Rage.

Rage being able to be manually extended helps prevent wastage, but I really think it should be a short rest resource anyways. The Rage Damage should just be converted into a Rage Bonus that applies to weapon damage, Str checks/saves, then later with primal knowledge (rename to furious focus or something) to certain barbarian skills. Hell, even make it damage reduction instead of the blanket resistance to save design space for other class features, combat AND noncombat.

Weapon masteries are a good start, but need work. There is a huge gap between the better and worse ones, and I don't see why you'd limit the martials to only learning a few of them.

I've sort of lost interest mulling over the minutiae, at least right now. There's some QoL there, some polish there, some unfortunate delays and losses, in the grand scope it doesn't really move the needle. The Barbarian wasn't dominating combat before, it won't be now, and combat is all it does!


https://youtu.be/l3eP4Oq6McQ

[Hurrashane]

With the addition of forcing a save maintains rage Barbarian is now perfectly set up to have a casting subclass. Subclass just needs a feature that let's them cast while raging, and spells of course.

[Psyren]

I think Primal Knowledge, Indomitable Might, and the level 1 feat give the new version plenty of out-of-combat utility honestly. I also think PAM is still too much of a no-brainer for the class, especially for Berserkers who should be using big axes/mauls/swords.

[ZRN]

I view this incarnation as a sidegrade really. Stuff has been polished, but the Barbarian is still pretty much doing the same stuff and it all revolves around Rage.
[/SPOILER]

"Sidegrade" seems harsh. They definitely gained some stuff (weapon mastery, primal knowledge, continuing rage with a bonus action) and I don't feel like they lost much of anything (danger sense moved later?) Not as big an upgrade as some other classes but I can't imagine picking the 5e barbarian over this one if I had the choice.

[Dr.Samurai]

I heartily agree about Reckless Attack, to the point that I changed it to 'until your next turn' a long time ago, and had to re-read my PHB to see that it's actually a handwritten margin note, and not the rule.
A great change.

Frenzy is another one that I just removed the whole exhaustion schtick. So, I'd probably re-port my version of Frenzy back into the D&DOne version if this UA ability makes the cut to production.
I think if you remove the Exhaustion mechanic from the current 5.0 Berserker, it's an amazing subclass.

Ignoring the Berserker (mostly because I've never played one), I rather like all the changes. I agree that they haven't gone hard enough with some of them (Barbarians still need some love at higher levels, and Reckless Attack needs to last until the beginning of your next turn)... but broadly speaking the changes are good. Your attack-boosting class features now applying to thrown weapons was much needed.
I agree the change to let it work with Thrown weapons, coupled with the change to Thrown weapons so you can draw+attack is a much needed QoL improvement.

I also think that Primal Knowledge is one of those features that's hard to evaluate outside of a given table, since it's such a "back pocket" ability (you don't need it all the time, but you're really happy to have it when you need it). There are going to be less-combat-focused days where having the ability to burn a use of Rage to hyper-boost your Stealth checks so you can accompany the Rogue when scouting is going to come in clutch. Advantage + Indomitable Might is actually a really strong boost, and being able to apply it to skills other Athletics is nice.
I generally agree. But my group also generally tries to cover skills broadly across the party.

My DM also uses a time tracker wheel to cover 10 minute increments. It helps him keep track of time, and it also has a random encounter part that he is able to highlight for himself after he rolls so that if we spend enough time and hit that increment, he knows there's a random encounter. Point being that 10 minutes gets used up quickly. We don't have these sort of nebulous spans of infini-time where a player is like "is my feature still up?" and the DM is like "uh, sure, yeah, you still have some time left on that feature". As an example, in our current Against the Giants game, forcing open a Huge sized door takes 10 minutes. Not necessarily the act of pushing it specifically, but setting up the attempt, making the attempt, and recovering to try it again. I like this approach because it means we can't just spam attempts until we succeed, unless we're okay with taking the time to do so, so it makes us look for other ways. It also adds to the realism for me. But in games like this, I don't know if I'd spend a use of Primal Knowledge.

So I do think it's as you say; how much you can get out of this will vary by table.

I do wonder why they went with those skills, though — at first I thought the idea was that you could boost all of your Barbarian skills, but then I checked and only three of the five skills are on the Barbarian list. I wonder if we're going to see subclasses that let Primal Knowledge apply to other skills — Totem Barbarians might be able to use Primal Knowledge with Animal Handling, for example.
I do think that part of the barbarian's schtick of being the guardian for their tribe, etc. as per the PHB does suggest they might be good at things like Perception and Survival, and maybe even Stealth. But due to the way ability scores are treated, and skill DCs, this doesn't always translate to in-game play. So I am okay with the skills they chose. It's certainly part of my idea when I play a barbarian that they should be helpful with some of these

I agree that the Primal Champion nerf is lame, but at least we get the cap-breaking Strength a little earlier? I dunno.
Yeah but it just seems like such a minimal buff for a capstone.

Fighter is getting an extra attack at level 11. Barbarian gets +11 damage on a crit.

Fighter is getting an extra attack at level 18. Barbarian is getting +2 Str/Con.

And you might be tempted to say the barbarian is more resilient, but the new fighter at these levels has Second Wind 4/day. And Indomitable+Unconquerable. That's about +100 hit points in the day and practically auto-saving 5 saving throws.

I think they can give more in this feature.


Some other things on my wishlist for the Barbarian:

Some more features that help you feel super-humanly strong. Stuff like:

Powerful Build or some equivalent at some point. My personal houserules let Barbarians add their Strength and Constitution together for the purposes of carry capacity, but I'd take anything that lets me carry a ton of stuff.
Something that boosts the range of thrown weapons. If Barbarians are going to be relying on thrown weapons for range, I'd like to see them reach shortbow ranges at the very least.
At some point, remove the size limit on grapples and shoves. Let me chokeslam a dragon, dang it!


I like these. I think Powerful Build would be great, but I'm sure people will grumble that it is redundant with racial features. But the barbarian needs features that make it feel physically strong. Adding to your ideas:

1. Powerful Build
2. Boosted thrown weapons
3. No size limit on opposed checks
4. Advantage on Strength checks
5. Standing Leap
6. Something to negate Forced Movement, or lessen it?
7. I like the idea that the barbarian can hold their breath for 1 hour per Con mod instead of 1 minute, thoughts?
8. Force a potential Shove or Prone when using Reckless Attack?
9. Something to add more damage

An alternative would be to have the Barbarian drop people with non-crits at [Barbarian Level] HP instead of 0 HP. If a 12th level Barbarian hits you and reduces your HP to 10, you're actually at 0 HP. Crits just treat that "virtual damage" like actual damage.
This is an interesting idea, and an alternative to a damage boost. Not sure how often it will come up, anyone else have thoughts on this?

I view this incarnation as a sidegrade really. Stuff has been polished, but the Barbarian is still pretty much doing the same stuff and it all revolves around Rage.
I think "sidegrade" is a good way of putting it. Some people will think this is good and want to play it. For me, I'd prefer the other features. Maybe if I was level 17 and get a Rage whenever I roll Initiative, I'd use Primal Knowledge. But I'd still be out Instinctive Pounce and half of Feral Instinct.

Rage being able to be manually extended helps prevent wastage, but I really think it should be a short rest resource anyways.
Actually... this is also a mixed bag. Right now, if a monster hits you with an attack and Stuns you, you keep your Rage. Or if a monster paralyzes you and their minion runs up and crits you, you keep your rage.

With UA barbarian, you automatically lose your rage the moment you're stunned or paralyzed or otherwise incapacitated.

Damage extending your rage is thematic; I can see a paralyzed barbarian raging at the magic or poison and trying to shake it off with gritted teeth. But with UA barbarian, your rage just ends. Seems wimpy.

The Rage Damage should just be converted into a Rage Bonus that applies to weapon damage, Str checks/saves, then later with primal knowledge (rename to furious focus or something) to certain barbarian skills.
Agree with this as well.

Weapon masteries are a good start, but need work. There is a huge gap between the better and worse ones, and I don't see why you'd limit the martials to only learning a few of them.

Yeah I'm still not sure where I am on these. I feel like it's a mistake to tie them to specific weapons.


https://youtu.be/l3eP4Oq6McQ

Hmmm... well I'm much more a fan of the concept of the barbarian class than he seems to be lol. But I agree with a lot of the sentiment in the video. I don't think it should be absorbed into a fighter subclass though, unless they literally cram all the features into the subclass levels.

With the addition of forcing a save maintains rage Barbarian is now perfectly set up to have a casting subclass. Subclass just needs a feature that let's them cast while raging, and spells of course.
Yeah. I think it should read "if you attack or deal damage or force a saving throw", something like that. Because Storm Herald can force a saving throw as a bonus action, or deal damage as a bonus action (without an attack). Both of these should work to extend rage in my opinion.

"Sidegrade" seems harsh. They definitely gained some stuff (weapon mastery, primal knowledge, continuing rage with a bonus action) and I don't feel like they lost much of anything (danger sense moved later?) Not as big an upgrade as some other classes but I can't imagine picking the 5e barbarian over this one if I had the choice.
Well, Danger Sense got moved to five levels later, and they lost immunity to surprise, and Instinctive Pounce (for those that were using it).

Rage can be extended as a bonus action, but now if you're Stunned or Paralyzed you're automatically dropped out of Rage. That weakness, coupled with no additional rages per day, makes Primal Knowledge a question in my mind.

Weapon Mastery is a buff for sure. But depending on the weapon, I'm not sure it's worth it. Like... I used a +1 Longsword of Warning we found throughout a lot of our previous campaign. I don't think I'd trade any of the features the barbarian lost to roll a d10 instead of a d8.

[Theodoxus]

This is an interesting idea, and an alternative to a damage boost. Not sure how often it will come up, anyone else have thoughts on this?

I'd be fine with it. Another option I could see is building up a pool of damage that you have resisted, and unleashing it on an attack (maybe requiring Reckless?) So, if you're raging and something hits you for 10 damage, you take 5, and the remaining is added to your Rage Pool. Then, on your next turn, if you hit, it deals that extra 5 points. Get hit for 50 over a round? Deal +25 on your next turn. Conceptually, it's a little less resisting the damage and instead redirecting it - but mechanically it's identical.


Actually... this is also a mixed bag. Right now, if a monster hits you with an attack and Stuns you, you keep your Rage. Or if a monster paralyzes you and their minion runs up and crits you, you keep your rage.

I think both taking damage, and allowing a BA to extend is ideal. To be clear, keep all the ways the 2014 Barbi maintains Rage, and add the BA extension on top.


Yeah I'm still not sure where I am on these. I feel like it's a mistake to tie them to specific weapons.

Agreed. I think unbinding them from weapons and granting them instead as an ability, akin to fighting styles, would work better mechanically. Very few of them wouldn't work well on a broad group of weapon types. Even ones that specify a singular weapon attribute like Flex for Versatile, could have a secondary rider added like "allows a non-versatile weapon to use a different damage type" allowing a longsword to deal bludgeoning (flatblading) or piercing (poking). Nick might allow for both light and finesse weapons, etc.


Hmmm... well I'm much more a fan of the concept of the barbarian class than he seems to be lol. But I agree with a lot of the sentiment in the video. I don't think it should be absorbed into a fighter subclass though, unless they literally cram all the features into the subclass levels.

I haven't watched the video, but in my own homebrew that shrinks classes to Expert, Mage, and Warrior - I'm granting 1st level Warriors a Fighting Archetype based on Power Source, so if you pick Primal, you get access to either Rage or Naturalist (basically giving baseline Ranger abilities); Divine grants Paladin Divine Senses and Lay on Hands; Arcane grants Eldritch Knight capabilities, but if you want increased casting (from 1/3 to 1/2) for any of them, then you'd need to go Gestalt instead, grabbing Warrior and Mage half classes.


Weapon Mastery is a buff for sure. But depending on the weapon, I'm not sure it's worth it. Like... I used a +1 Longsword of Warning we found throughout a lot of our previous campaign. I don't think I'd trade any of the features the barbarian lost to roll a d10 instead of a d8.

Yeah, that's why I'm a fan of universality for mastery. If you could use cleave or graze with that longsword, would it make a difference?

[sambojin]

I'd probably decouple Primal Knowledge from Rage and just make it pb/ day uses (lasts 10mins). Gives it plenty of uses, while leaving Rage for combat and actual feats of superhuman strength.

Sorta an easy fix that one.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'd be fine with it. Another option I could see is building up a pool of damage that you have resisted, and unleashing it on an attack (maybe requiring Reckless?) So, if you're raging and something hits you for 10 damage, you take 5, and the remaining is added to your Rage Pool. Then, on your next turn, if you hit, it deals that extra 5 points. Get hit for 50 over a round? Deal +25 on your next turn. Conceptually, it's a little less resisting the damage and instead redirecting it - but mechanically it's identical.
This is also interesting. I would see it as the more punishment you take, the more fervor you fight with.

But this is also a weird incentive for the DM, because not only are you tough to take down, but now the more damage they throw at you, the more damage you deal in return. Not sure if that's the right approach, but I like the idea.

I think both taking damage, and allowing a BA to extend is ideal. To be clear, keep all the ways the 2014 Barbi maintains Rage, and add the BA extension on top.
Agreed.

Agreed. I think unbinding them from weapons and granting them instead as an ability, akin to fighting styles, would work better mechanically. Very few of them wouldn't work well on a broad group of weapon types. Even ones that specify a singular weapon attribute like Flex for Versatile, could have a secondary rider added like "allows a non-versatile weapon to use a different damage type" allowing a longsword to deal bludgeoning (flatblading) or piercing (poking). Nick might allow for both light and finesse weapons, etc.
Yeah, the current design is very... minimal and seems like half-baked. Given that they were telling us the Fighting Style was the warrior trait, do we think that Weapon Mastery was suddenly swapped in? If so, why?

I haven't watched the video, but in my own homebrew that shrinks classes to Expert, Mage, and Warrior - I'm granting 1st level Warriors a Fighting Archetype based on Power Source, so if you pick Primal, you get access to either Rage or Naturalist (basically giving baseline Ranger abilities); Divine grants Paladin Divine Senses and Lay on Hands; Arcane grants Eldritch Knight capabilities, but if you want increased casting (from 1/3 to 1/2) for any of them, then you'd need to go Gestalt instead, grabbing Warrior and Mage half classes.
Well, that's a whole different approach. I see the sense in that, and I think there's merit to taking that approach. But if we were to have the classes as they are right now, for me you can do a lot with the barbarian that it would be tough for me to see it reduced to a subclass. Part of that is that I find the fighter class very boring.

Yeah, that's why I'm a fan of universality for mastery. If you could use cleave or graze with that longsword, would it make a difference?
It would make a difference in my opinion of mastery. I'm not sure it'd be enough to lose those features, but I'd have to think about the games and what the experience would have been like.


Since I remembered Fighting Style, anyone else feel like the barbarian should get one? It's a style of fighter, as opposed to "mastery", so I don't know why the barbarian wouldn't get it. They clearly have fighting styles.

[Jerrykhor]

Overall they are buffed but man, as stated many posters above, Barbarians always feel like wasted potential in D&D. There are so many things they could have added to make Barbarians feel like the powerhouses they should be. At higher tiers of play, the OneD&D Barbarian still feels like a (very strong) angry child in the middle of an adults fight, especially when there are lots of magic. Here's a stun for you, child. Now go sit down in that corner.

I always feel like Barbarians should have features that encourage them to jump, like jumping attacks, and give them better jumping distance. Also, features that encourage them to move and attack (like many beasts have the pounce/charge ability), would feel great.

Also, are you even a Barbarian without some kind of ground smash? Hitting the ground really hard is a standard brute move.

I also particularly like the ability to wield Two-handed weapons in one hand. Nothing screams strong like brandishing two big weapons like they are made of foam.

Another idea is to give them stronger Rage bonuses when their HP drops below half. Would give them a 'cornered animal' feel.

One thing to note is that the new Barbs can only have 24/22 Str/Con at lv20, instead of 24/24, while everyone else can reach 22 in their main stat. Feels like their niche is being diminished somewhat. But then again if it were up to me, i'd give Barbarians a +2 to Str or Con (and the max) at lv11, 15 and 20, to reach a potential max of 26 str/con.

[Theodoxus]

Re: Fighting Styles, I suspect the original lack of them is because you'd realistically end up with 2 (GWF and TWF) and possibly Protection, though that really feels 'not Barbarian', though it does fit the Hollywood expectation (13th Warrior, anyone?). I know Barbi was one of the first classes WotC felt 'baked', so it's very possible they just thought that two good FS options was too small to justify and didn't bother to readdress it later (as evidenced in a lot of the Barbarian abilities that still feel doughy).

With the expansion of FS from Tasha's, I could see adding them to Barbarian, but it would be a fairly drastic update, and I don't recall a massive backlash about how horrible Barbi was, unlike, say, Ranger.

But for D&DOne? Yeah, I think a FS option at 1st level would be grand. Let the 1/2 casters stick to 2nd level FS, while the "true" warriors: Fighters and Barbarians get it at 1st.

[Hytheter]

Another idea is to give them stronger Rage bonuses when their HP drops below half. Would give them a 'cornered animal' feel.

This will probably be controversial but sometimes I feel like Rage should be something that triggers under certain conditions (like, for example, being dropped to half) rather than a button you can press a finite number of times. Not in a vacuum, of course; you'd have to rebalance parts of the class accordingly. But I think it would be cool. More cinematic and potentially more mechanically interesting.

Alternately you could have trigger conditions in addition to the limited number of uses.

[Hurrashane]

This will probably be controversial but sometimes I feel like Rage should be something that triggers under certain conditions (like, for example, being dropped to half) rather than a button you can press a finite number of times. Not in a vacuum, of course; you'd have to rebalance parts of the class accordingly. But I think it would be cool. More cinematic and potentially more mechanically interesting.

Alternately you could have trigger conditions in addition to the limited number of uses.

I mean, nothing is stopping you from setting those limits on yourself. I once had a barbarian that went into a battle trance that activated as soon as he took a hit (he still raged on his turn but I waited until he took damage before I did). But I don't think having the classes main ability locked behind things that may not come up is a good design. Like, imagine playing a wizard who couldn't cast spells until certain conditions were met, that'd suck.

[Oramac]

Overall, I like the UA Barbarian. There's things I'd change, but even as written I'd be happy to play it.

Rage: I like the idea of making it a short rest feature, and adding back in the "continues on taking damage" wording. I also like the idea of decoupling the rage damage bonus into a "Fury Bonus" or something, but I'm not married to it.

Unarmored Defense: Again, I'd prefer it keyed off of Str/Con instead of Dex/Con, but I can live with it.

Weapon Mastery: These are neat, and definitely a needed buff for martials. I'm just not convinced they're going to be more than a set-it-and-forget-it thing. I don't really see them adding any unique gameplay. But, better to have it, at least.

Primal Knowledge: I like this; rather, I like how this interacts with other features. Rage gives advantage on strength checks, so you get advantage on all of these skills. On top of that, Indomitable Might keys on strength checks, which these all now become. So assuming you have a 20 strength (why wouldn't you?), you can Take 20 on any Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth, or Survival check, which is pretty damn cool.

That said, I do agree with others here that this could use a bit more of a boost for out-of-combat utility. Changing Rage to a short rest without reducing available uses would go a long way to helping that.

Reckless Attack: I'll be honest, I had to re-read the 2014 PHB to realize that it's not supposed to work on all attacks. It definitely should be all attacks, no question.

5th Level: I'd like to see something else here, but I'm not too fussed about it. Meh.

Feral Instinct: I'd add the "cannot be surprised" language back in. Otherwise, this is fine.

Indomitable Might: It was good before Primal Knowledge; it's amazing with it.

Brutal Critical: I'd like to see this earlier. Perhaps even at 5th level. But I can handle it here. Again, I agree that it's a bit boring and could use some additional spice. But it's not bad, per se.

Persistent Rage: This is not awesome. It removes an arbitrary limit that won't really matter most of the time. This is about the only feature that I'd just completely remove and do something else.

Relentless Rage: This I like. Refreshing on a short rest might even be too powerful, but I'm not complaining.

Rage Resurgence: Change Rage to a short rest, and this is no longer needed. Honestly, I think they're keeping rage on a long rest because they can't think of anything more creative to give barbarians. Maybe WOTC should come read this thread!!

Primal Champion: No reason whatsoever to nerf this. It definitely should remain +4/+4.

Epic Boons: Dumb.

...

Frenzy: I like this, and would be happy to use it as written. That said, I agree that it is kinda boring and uninspired. And it should probably keep the BA attack, too.

Mindless Rage: Excellent buff.

Retaliation: Should be within reach, not 5 feet. Otherwise, this is good.

Intimidating Presence: Eh. It's ok. At that level, most of the people you want to scare are immune to Frightened. And 1/LR is not enough. It's usable, but I think it needs a buff.

[Amechra]

I mean, "rage when a trigger happens, like being below an HP threshold" would just be Berserker Strength (http://web.archive.org/web/20200116104012/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=3) from 3.5. Which wasn't great, but that's mostly because damage was so high in 3.5 and the bar was set so dang low.

Looking over what Barbarians got (or could get) in 3.5, I think I should revise my wishlist:



Some kind of boost to mental saving throws while raging — I miss getting a boost to Will saves while raging, instead of, you know, becoming more vulnerable to being Charmed or Frightened while raging¹. Heck, if I'm remembering correctly, with the right feats you could have a Barbarian who was effectively immune to Will saves while raging, which was pretty sweet.
Some equivalent to the Mad Foam Rager feat, which had a cool and unique effect — once per turn while raging, you could delay something that affects you by a round. You get mind controlled? You get a round of freedom before you go under. You get hit by a stupidly strong crit that one-shots you? You don't have to worry about the damage until next round. Someone teleports you away? You get a chance to punch them before you disappear.
Some alternate options for raging — Barbarians always got a solid Strength boost while raging, but there were alternate class features that traded away the other benefits of Rage (the Constitution bonus, the Will save bonus, and the penalty to AC). You had Ferocity, which gave a bonus to Dexterity (and a penalty to ranged attacks) and could be entered more quickly (so you could get the Dex boost to initiative), and Whirling Frenzy, which gave you a bonus to AC/reflex saves and a bonus attack instead.


¹ You're exactly as likely to fail your save, and failing your save hurts worse than it would otherwise, since they tend to almost immediately end Rage. This is something that's going to be less of an issue in OneD&D, but still.

[Rukelnikov]

Overall its an up to date patch, not a big change, except for Primal Knowledge.

I think its on okay idea, but I don't like the implementation, while I like the image of someone raging in order to intimidate someone or make a display of acrobatics, those are both proactive things, survival can be proactive or reactive, and perception is usually reactive, and is in those cases where I don't feel it makes much sense. A feature like that I think would be better always on, its similar in theme to Danger Sense and Feral Instinct, so thematically it fits. And raging to be more stealthy is just something I find hard to reconcile.

[Moxxmix]

Not sure why you can't still take Instinctive Pounce? It's an optional feature, where you need permission from your GM to get it, and Tasha's isn't going away.

Extending Rage through saving throws sounds like they wanted to make sure that it played nice with the new grapple system. Hopefully more features can make use of it in subclasses.

Extending Rage via a bonus action is a really nice feature, though I'm concerned with how it interacts with a few bonus action features from subclasses, such as Eagle Totem's ability to use Dash as a bonus action. If you need to pour on the speed, you can't use the subclass feature specifically intended for that without losing Rage.

I like what they did with Primal Knowledge, though I'd personally rename it Primal Instinct. (They may keep it as Primal Knowledge just so that it explicitly overwrites the optional Primal Knowledge feature granted by Tasha's.) It seems to be conceived as a way to tap into the Primal power source (like druids and rangers do for their magic), keying off of Strength as the "casting" stat.

Feral Instinct: Not having to see the source in order to gain advantage on Dex saves makes me feel it's kind of a decent trade-off to get Danger Sense at a later level. However losing the "can't be surprised" aspect makes me feel that Feral Instinct probably could have been a lower level. Maybe compromise and put the revised version at 5th level?

Indomitable Might coming online at level 9 is great. It actually feels useful at that level, rather than a complete joke.

Persistent Rage is useful in that it removes any conflicts with other uses of your bonus action, such as mentioned above. You also can't lose it when stunned or paralyzed.

I agree that Primal Champion is really underwhelming now, particularly if you started from a standard array and have to pour all your feats into stat ASI's in order to cap out both Str and Con. And obviously in comparison to the boosts every other class now gets at level 20, to raise their primary stat to 22.

Plus, with the changes to make all non-starting feats half-feats now, with +1 to some stat, and how it's been shown that fighter can reach 20 Str purely with feats instead of needing to use a normal ASI, the barbarian is usually going to want to go with a similar approach. The preferred setup is probably going to be starting with a 17 Str now (assuming standard array, 15 base plus 2 from background), then a +1 Str feat at 4, then an ASI at 8 to reach 20.

Regardless, that leaves Con down in the 14-16 range (you could start at 15 and then get a +1 Con feat at level 12, perhaps).

Anyway, that's a lot of fiddling in order to benefit from a feature that's now barely a speed bump. I can understand if they wanted to keep the max stat at ~25 (20 Str + Primal Champion + Epic Boon feature + Epic Boon stat), but as a capstone it needs a fair bit more oomph.

It doesn't have to be more +stat. Maybe a groundshaker ability? The "hit and shatter the ground all around you" (damage+knockdown) effect? That feels like a decent option to show off with as a capstone. Anyway, something like that.

Frenzy: Getting rid of the exhaustion mechanic is great, and was necessary. Tying it to Reckless Attack is a cool idea. It absolutely fits the intent of the ability. Getting rid of the bonus action attack in order to free up the bonus action slot is questionable.

You don't need to use the bonus action to sustain Rage if you're attacking, and obviously if you make a bonus action attack you're attacking, so there's no actual gain there. And while there are other subclasses that might make use of the bonus action for other things, that's obviously not a factor for the Berserker subclass itself. That only leaves the conflict with feats like Polearm Master, and dual wielding with anything other than a scimitar in the off hand.

Not being able to use the Polearm Master feat isn't really a problem. The real conflict is most likely dual wielding. If you use anything other than the new scimitar, you need the bonus action slot free in order to make the offhand attack. And if you're dual wielding, the Frenzy damage will always be better than an extra attack. (Compared to using a two-handed weapon, where the bonus weapon attack will likely be better.)

So essentially this is freeing up the play space to allow your dual-axe-wielding mad berserker barbarian. And you can use Polearm Master as a bonus. Is it a decent trade? I'd probably lean more yes than no. Maybe a tiny nerf in damage for some builds, but making more character builds reasonable rather than a fight against the system seems worth it.

Intimidating Presence: I like the changes. You can choose your targets, so if you still want to intimidate just one person in a room, that's possible. It has a massive 60' radius range while you're raging, with no limit on the number of targets. Targets make standard saves against it, rather than being immune for 24 hours if they make just one save, which means you can re-apply it if you really want to. Making the DC based on Str instead of Cha means it's pretty likely to actually stick, rather than make you look like an idiot most of the time.

And, like Primal Knowledge, it seems to be keying off of the idea of drawing on Primal power to fuel its effect.


As for wanting more damage effects from things like Brutal Critical: I've run some numbers on a level 13 barbarian, and I can get about 55 DPR when using Reckless Attack (though I forgot to factor in Retaliation), which is similar to the 54 Treantmonk got with his level 13 fighter. However the fighter goes up to near 70 DPR with advantage. On the other hand, if you get to make a Retaliation attack every round, it would push the barbarian up to around 70 DPR as well.

So, it feels relatively balanced between the two, and I'm not sure there's much need for extra damage bonuses.

[Gignere]

Feral Instinct: Not having to see the source in order to gain advantage on Dex saves makes me feel it's kind of a decent trade-off to get Danger Sense at a later level. However losing the "can't be surprised" aspect makes me feel that Feral Instinct probably could have been a lower level. Maybe compromise and put the revised version at 5th level?

I think the reason they removed the can’t be surprised is because in 1D&D all surprise does is give you advantage to the initiative checks. You don’t lose a full turn any longer. At least that’s what I’m assuming from their revised hidden and invisible conditions granting a surprise condition and all that condition does is grant you advantage to initiative check. Basically surprise is now a buff only and not a debuff where you can’t act so no reason to have a class feature to remove it.

[Amechra]

Overall its an up to date patch, not a big change, except for Primal Knowledge.

I think its on okay idea, but I don't like the implementation, while I like the image of someone raging in order to intimidate someone or make a display of acrobatics, those are both proactive things, survival can be proactive or reactive, and perception is usually reactive, and is in those cases where I don't feel it makes much sense. A feature like that I think would be better always on, its similar in theme to Danger Sense and Feral Instinct, so thematically it fits. And raging to be more stealthy is just something I find hard to reconcile.

The issue here is that the Dev team is changing the flavor of the Barbarian ("semi-feral, uncivilized warrior" → "person with a connection to the primal ferocity of the universe") and Rage itself ("You get VERY ANGRY when fighting" → "a state of feral enlightenment")... but they didn't rename anything, and most of the day-to-day stuff the class does is still "big strong warrior who hits things, who has a buff that makes them BIG and TOUGH that they can use a few times per long rest". You'd think that they'd use a relatively big change in flavor like that to justify some more out-there core class features, but they didn't.

(It does make it seem more likely that we'll get a Rage Mage subclass in core, though...)

[Joe the Rat]

Using the old Berserker with the new exhaustion (-1 on d20s per level, 10 to death) is actually fairly playable. I still lean to rage superceding exhaustion penalties.
But the new berserker, that straight up runs easier. I do like New Frenzy's rage damage as dice trick. I would be more inclined to lean into the rage damage as a pool or reference, which lets other paths play with this feature for non-dmage related functions. Like that Primordial Strength thing. I like adding rage [points] as a bonus to all of these skills, rather than making it al strength. The only downside is then you don't also get advantage on the rolls. hrm.

The one thing I would pull back in for barbs is extend rage on damage taken. Yes, it's not actively staying angry, but if people hitting you doesn't keep your ire up, I don't know what's going on.

On the other hand, the attack/force save/bonus action model works really well with using Rage as a battle focus mechanic, once again proving the best way to make a classic Samurai is to be a Barbarian.

[Rukelnikov]

The issue here is that the Dev team is changing the flavor of the Barbarian ("semi-feral, uncivilized warrior" → "person with a connection to the primal ferocity of the universe") and Rage itself ("You get VERY ANGRY when fighting" → "a state of feral enlightenment")... but they didn't rename anything, and most of the day-to-day stuff the class does is still "big strong warrior who hits things, who has a buff that makes them BIG and TOUGH that they can use a few times per long rest". You'd think that they'd use a relatively big change in flavor like that to justify some more out-there core class features, but they didn't.

(It does make it seem more likely that we'll get a Rage Mage subclass in core, though...)

Well, for me Barbarian has always had a conection with land and spirits that say Rogues or Fighters don't have, so for me that part is perfectly fine, the thing is if Rage is not gonna be, well, going into a rage, then maybe they should change the name, and if the feral enlightment is represented by heightened senses and understanding of surroindings and such, then the bonuses granted by rage make no sense, if that's the direction they wanna go, maybe having something akin to Locks boons, where you get some choice in how your Anti-Zen State manifests, with rage being one of the options, would have been a better path to tread. Similar to how mentions worked in 3.5. One of my most played characters, I had trouble porting from 3.5 to 5e because he indeed was kinda a Dex rager, not really a barbarian but a Wild Runner, similar in concept, and the closest you get in 5e is Rage, which does little to nothing to make you a better archer.

[Woggle]

Looking over what Barbarians got (or could get) in 3.5, I think I should revise my wishlist:



Some kind of boost to mental saving throws while raging — I miss getting a boost to Will saves while raging, instead of, you know, becoming more vulnerable to being Charmed or Frightened while raging¹. Heck, if I'm remembering correctly, with the right feats you could have a Barbarian who was effectively immune to Will saves while raging, which was pretty sweet.




I've been homebrewing Rage damage adding to mental saves during rage for a while now. It's the thing I miss most about 3.5 and earlier fighter types, i.e. them having great saving throws across the board.

[Theodoxus]

I mean, nothing is stopping you from setting those limits on yourself. I once had a barbarian that went into a battle trance that activated as soon as he took a hit (he still raged on his turn but I waited until he took damage before I did). But I don't think having the classes main ability locked behind things that may not come up is a good design. Like, imagine playing a wizard who couldn't cast spells until certain conditions were met, that'd suck.

I always see these suggestions as more of a 'yes, and' than 'yes, but'. Like, keep all the 2014 ways to maintain Rage, and add the BA as well. So, for this, why not grant a free Rage when bloodied (and at the same time, can we bring back Bloodied as a condition, it's a great mechanic in general). If I were being super generous, I'd make Rage basically state something along the lines of (paraphrasing, so not the finished idea):

"You can initiate a Rage as a Bonus Action on your turn, which lasts for 10 minutes, or if you don't maintain it using (all the methods listed here)
If you are not currently Raging and sustain the Bloodied condition (or are below half hit points if we're absconding with Bloodied), you immediate enter Rage, which does not count against your daily uses.
If you are currently Raging and sustain the Bloodied condition (yadayada), you immediately regain an expended use of Rage.
This can only gain the benefit of this Bloodied bonus Rage once per short rest (or Long, I'm not sure which is more balanced/useful)."

[Hurrashane]

I always see these suggestions as more of a 'yes, and' than 'yes, but'. Like, keep all the 2014 ways to maintain Rage, and add the BA as well. So, for this, why not grant a free Rage when bloodied (and at the same time, can we bring back Bloodied as a condition, it's a great mechanic in general). If I were being super generous, I'd make Rage basically state something along the lines of (paraphrasing, so not the finished idea):

"You can initiate a Rage as a Bonus Action on your turn, which lasts for 10 minutes, or if you don't maintain it using (all the methods listed here)
If you are not currently Raging and sustain the Bloodied condition (or are below half hit points if we're absconding with Bloodied), you immediate enter Rage, which does not count against your daily uses.
If you are currently Raging and sustain the Bloodied condition (yadayada), you immediately regain an expended use of Rage.
This can only gain the benefit of this Bloodied bonus Rage once per short rest (or Long, I'm not sure which is more balanced/useful)."

After reading this now I just think at a certain level barbarians should be able to enter rage as a reaction triggered by getting attacked. Flavorful and can increase their survivability

[Theodoxus]

Hulk Smash! indeed.

[Xihirli]

It took me a second to realize it, but I think something substantial was taken from Barbarians.

Monster design is moving more and more AWAY from being focused around B/P/S.
Barbarians, which in 5e saw their damage scaling sharply decline in later levels, will in 5.5 see their survivability fall off as high level enemies start swinging their maces and dealing force, or necrotic, or thunder damage.

Rage gets weaker and weaker as you level, as more and more enemies gain access to other damage types. Barbarians should be able to pick new resistances as they level.

[Kane0]

Alternatively, change damage resistance to just flatly reducing damage taken by [rage bonus]. Like their own special version of Heavy Armor Master, since they are blocked from using heavy armor it wont stack.
Race and Subclas can then layer on resistance as a nice double-up effect, same as sources of THP.

[Hurrashane]

It took me a second to realize it, but I think something substantial was taken from Barbarians.

Monster design is moving more and more AWAY from being focused around B/P/S.
Barbarians, which in 5e saw their damage scaling sharply decline in later levels, will in 5.5 see their survivability fall off as high level enemies start swinging their maces and dealing force, or necrotic, or thunder damage.

Rage gets weaker and weaker as you level, as more and more enemies gain access to other damage types. Barbarians should be able to pick new resistances as they level.

Makes various species abilities, spells, and magic items that grant resistance much more valuable, though. If that's a net gain for the system or not I can't say.

[Witty Username]

Best change, brutal critical only has one table entry instead of 3, so it isn't reminding you that it sucks or taking up space that could fit better features.

[Kane0]

True, however Brutal Critical itself still isnt amazing. I'd have taken hulk leap, ground pound, smash-force-effect, etc for a tier 3 ability. Triggering the bonus damage if you have advantage and both rolls would hit even.

[Psyren]

Brutal Critical, even improved, is still not worthwhile as the gateway to Tier 3. Treantmonk has an idea I support - i.e. letting Barbarians in T3 have the ability to interact with magical effects, e.g. cutting through/shattering magical control effects on the battlefield, or even buffs and debuffs used by enemies. Barbarians have the fluff of drawing on primal power for more than just hitting harder all the way back in Tier 1 so I think this would be a great fit, and a decent reason to stick with Barbarian at high levels.

[Theodoxus]

Alternatively, change damage resistance to just flatly reducing damage taken by [rage bonus]. Like their own special version of Heavy Armor Master, since they are blocked from using heavy armor it wont stack.
Race and Subclas can then layer on resistance as a nice double-up effect, same as sources of THP.

What do you mean by rage bonus? Like, their rage damage, or a new attribute? If rage damage, it's pittance compared to standard resistance, even if it affected all damage types (bye bye bearbarian). If it's a new attribute, how much are you thinking?


Brutal Critical, even improved, is still not worthwhile as the gateway to Tier 3. Treantmonk has an idea I support - i.e. letting Barbarians in T3 have the ability to interact with magical effects, e.g. cutting through/shattering magical control effects on the battlefield, or even buffs and debuffs used by enemies. Barbarians have the fluff of drawing on primal power for more than just hitting harder all the way back in Tier 1 so I think this would be a great fit, and a decent reason to stick with Barbarian at high levels.

That's not a bad idea, though it feels more like something a subclass would be built around, the mageslayer archetype. As a base ability, it conjures up images of the old 2nd ed barbarian that got bonus XP for destroying magic items and couldn't use magic, basically ever... and I'm not sure that headcanon is something that should be re-explored, though I'm open to having my opinion changed on it.

[Kane0]

What do you mean by rage bonus? Like, their rage damage, or a new attribute? If rage damage, it's pittance compared to standard resistance, even if it affected all damage types (bye bye bearbarian). If it's a new attribute, how much are you thinking?


Yeah rage damage bonus, convert it into damage reduction + bonus on str damage/checks/saves and then expand to other checks with primal knowledge. Saves a bunch of design space for the barbarian to get other things that arent reliant on rage since it isnt such a huge feature anymore. Beef up unarmored AC, hand over a fighting style, grant some THP, throw in some bonus action movement or influence (intimidate only). You can also add more extras into rage like adding the rage bonus to mental saves and so on, on top of just letting rage happen more frequently since it isnt such a huge chunk of your class' design power budget.

[Saelethil]

Brutal Critical, even improved, is still not worthwhile as the gateway to Tier 3. Treantmonk has an idea I support - i.e. letting Barbarians in T3 have the ability to interact with magical effects, e.g. cutting through/shattering magical control effects on the battlefield, or even buffs and debuffs used by enemies. Barbarians have the fluff of drawing on primal power for more than just hitting harder all the way back in Tier 1 so I think this would be a great fit, and a decent reason to stick with Barbarian at high levels.

That could work, I think I’d prefer an AOE “Ground Pound” that they could replace one of their attacks with any turn that they’re Raging. Something like: “Creatures in a 15’ radius sphere centered on you must make a Str. save (DC 8+Str.+PB) on a failure they take (Rage bonus x d6s + Rage bonus?) Thunder damage and are knocked prone. On a success they take 1/2 damage and are not knocked prone.”

[Damon_Tor]

I wonder if fighter->champion 3 is worth it on a barbarian now, given the increased power of your crits (and it's not like the other fighter features are bad either)

I'm kind of liking the idea of a dual-wielder barbarian with a nick weapon, a 19-20 crit chance and reckless attack. That's a really good chance you can get the bonus action attack from GWM, plus the brutal critical damage.

[Kane0]

Crit fishing was a bit of a fools errand before (when it came to optimization), this doesnt change much. Still feels great to land one though, its not like its unviable.

Edit: i miss UA elven accuracy, it worked with Strength...

[Witty Username]

That's not a bad idea, though it feels more like something a subclass would be built around, the mageslayer archetype. As a base ability, it conjures up images of the old 2nd ed barbarian that got bonus XP for destroying magic items and couldn't use magic, basically ever... and I'm not sure that headcanon is something that should be re-explored, though I'm open to having my opinion changed on it.

Path of the Forsaker, anyone?

[Hytheter]

I wonder if fighter->champion 3 is worth it on a barbarian now, given the increased power of your crits (and it's not like the other fighter features are bad either)

I'm kind of liking the idea of a dual-wielder barbarian with a nick weapon, a 19-20 crit chance and reckless attack. That's a really good chance you can get the bonus action attack from GWM, plus the brutal critical damage.

I wager you'd still be better off the other way around, with the third attack from Barb 2/Champion 11 outclassing the gains from Brutal Critical.

[Amechra]

I wager you'd still be better off the other way around, with the third attack from Barb 2/Champion 11 outclassing the gains from Brutal Critical.

Some quick math shows that you're right — the extra attack does a LOT of work.

[Boverk]

I was going through the Onednd playtest documents as a whole, looking at how the character creation and classes work together and realized that a Human Barbarian level 8 could have proficiency in every single skill.


Level 1 feat - skilled gives 3 proficiencies
Background gives 2 proficiencies
All Humans get 1 extra proficiencies
Human gets an additional level 1 feat...take skilled again for 3 proficiencies
Barbarian level 1 grants 2 proficiencies
Barbarian level 2 grants 1 more proficiency
Level 4 feat, take skilled again for 3 more proficiencies
Level 8 feat, take skilled again for 3 more proficiencies


and that's 18 skill proficiencies!

It's far from optimal, but if you want to play Conan the Librarian for a one shot, it's possible!

[Oramac]

I was going through the Onednd playtest documents as a whole, looking at how the character creation and classes work together and realized that a Human Barbarian level 8 could have proficiency in every single skill. snip

Then take 11 levels of Rogue for Reliable Talent and Sneak Attack (which still works with Rage) and you can get a minimum of 16 + ability mod on every skill! Sounds kinda fun, actually.

[Boverk]

One nice things about Brutal Critical scaling off of barbarian level instead of weapon die is it no longer penalizes two weapon barbs.

Halfling Barbarian with dual wielder feat, dual wielding a scimitar(nick) and trident(topple) can be an excellent knee-capping, toppling machine! 3 attacks at level 5 with your bonus action still free.

[Hurrashane]

I was going through the Onednd playtest documents as a whole, looking at how the character creation and classes work together and realized that a Human Barbarian level 8 could have proficiency in every single skill.


Level 1 feat - skilled gives 3 proficiencies
Background gives 2 proficiencies
All Humans get 1 extra proficiencies
Human gets an additional level 1 feat...take skilled again for 3 proficiencies
Barbarian level 1 grants 2 proficiencies
Barbarian level 2 grants 1 more proficiency
Level 4 feat, take skilled again for 3 more proficiencies
Level 8 feat, take skilled again for 3 more proficiencies


and that's 18 skill proficiencies!

It's far from optimal, but if you want to play Conan the Librarian for a one shot, it's possible!

Yeah, I was kind of excited to make a skilled skilled human fighter. Be real useful in and out of combat :D