Best Archer Valor Bard build for these parameters?

[OlegRU]

I understand that a super-optimized version of this would likely be either heavily geared towards caster or archer, maybe using other weapons/dmg cantrips, dipping multiple levels/classes, diff. races etc.

However, I specifically, RP and aesthetic-wise, want to play the character from my "Definites" below, and be this quickly-getting-around, good bowman, who casts fun spells and good at skills (I get it's somewhat MAD) .

I want to have the most optimized version possible of this, within given limits.

DM Rules:

- We get 30 points for point-buy array (here's the calculator)
- We start w/ a free less-powerful Feat
- Starting level 1

Definites:

- Playing a Half-Elf, Valor Bard, Dex-based Archer
- Don't want negative modifiers (i.e. scores under 10)

More info:

- So far the best arrays I've come up with are (post racial bonuses): 10, 16, 13, 10, 12, 17 and 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16.
- Some DM-approved feats that work with my char are:


Medium Armor Master
Alert
Observant
Skill Expert
Fighter Initiate (for Archery Fighting Style)
Open to other fitting "less-powerful" feats


- I might be open to a 1-2 level dip, class/RP-depending.


Questions:
1. What combo of Ability Scores + Feat would you recommend to start?

- I like the 1st array in that w/ a feat I can start @ 18 CHA, but same time the 2nd array allows me a nice starting CON and a WIS that's feat-boostable to 14.
- I like Skill Expert and Observant as they would allow me to have that 14 WIS if I did 2nd array, SE allowing me a nice Athletics despite my 10 STR or Observ. for the cool passive scores.
- Alert is awesome for setting up in combat and keeping me more survivable.
- Medium Armor Master - the major reason it's on there, is I'm worried that 16 AC (Breastplate + Dex) is a bit low, and don't want Med. Armors to kill my stealth.
- Fighter Initiate (for Archery Fighting Style) gives +2 attack bns to help offset the -5 from Sharpshooter feat later.


2. What would you recommend as the ASI/Feat choices going forward in level progression?

- Depending on my array choice and starting feat. If 2nd array, considering Lvl 4: 18 CHA, Lvl 8: SS or 18 DEX or 20 CHA Lvl 12: Whichever I didn't take lvl 8 etc.

[Frogreaver]

I understand that a super-optimized version of this would likely be either heavily geared towards caster or archer, maybe using other weapons/dmg cantrips, dipping multiple levels/classes, diff. races etc.

However, I specifically, RP and aesthetic-wise, want to play the character from my "Definites" below, and be this quickly-getting-around, good bowman, who casts fun spells and good at skills (I get it's somewhat MAD) .

I want to have the most optimized version possible of this, within given limits.

DM Rules:

- We get 30 points for point-buy array (here's the calculator)
- We start w/ a free less-powerful Feat
- Starting level 1

Definites:

- Playing a Half-Elf, Valor Bard, Dex-based Archer
- Don't want negative modifiers (i.e. scores under 10)

More info:

- So far the best arrays I've come up with are (post racial bonuses): 10, 16, 13, 10, 12, 17 and 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16.
- Some DM-approved feats that work with my char are:


Medium Armor Master
Alert
Observant
Skill Expert
Open to other fitting "less-powerful" feats


- I might be open to a 1-2 level dip, class/RP-depending.


Questions:
1. What combo of Ability Scores + Feat would you recommend to start?

- I like the 1st array in that w/ a feat I can start @ 18 CHA, but same time the 2nd array allows me a nice starting CON and a WIS that's feat-boostable to 14.
- I like Skill Expert and Observant as they would allow me to have that 14 WIS if I did 2nd array, SE allowing me a nice Athletics despite my 10 STR or Observ. for the cool passive scores.
- Alert is awesome for setting up in combat and keeping me more survivable.
- Medium Armor Master - the major reason it's on there, is I'm worried that 16 AC (Breastplate + Dex) is a bit low, and don't want Med. Armors to kill my stealth.


2. What would you recommend as the ASI/Feat choices going forward in level progression?

- Depending on my array choice and starting feat. If 2nd array, considering Lvl 4: 18 CHA, Lvl 8: SS or 18 DEX or 20 CHA Lvl 12: Whichever I didn't take lvl 8 etc.


Skill Expert - get Cha to 18
ASI progression - bump dex to 18, get resilient con

By level 8 you get 18 dex, 14 con, 18 cha. That's solid.

Level 1 and 2 spells, Healing Word is great, Silvery Barbs if you can take it will be great. Aid makes a great prebuff. You'll want a couple of good AOE debuff options from level 3 spells to open up harder looking combats with. Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Plant Growth are all great options. Fear is solid too.

Won't be the strongest character ever, but there shouldn't be many situations where you aren't effective.

[OlegRU]

Skill Expert - get Cha to 18
ASI progression - bump dex to 18, get resilient con

By level 8 you get 18 dex, 14 con, 18 cha. That's solid.

Level 1 and 2 spells, Healing Word is great, Silvery Barbs if you can take it will be great. Aid makes a great prebuff. You'll want a couple of good AOE debuff options from level 3 spells to open up harder looking combats with. Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Plant Growth are all great options. Fear is solid too.

Won't be the strongest character ever, but there shouldn't be many situations where you aren't effective.

What about:


Use the 2nd array I have there (10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16.)
Skill Expert or Observant to get WIS to 14 (better skills, saving throws etc.) OR Fighter Initiate (Archery Fighting Style) for +2 attack to help offset the -5 from Sharpshooter feat later.
Level 4 bump CHA to 18
Level 8 Sharpshooter (love the idea of having sniper skills thematic to my char)
Level 12 Dex 18 or CHA 20


only thing that worries me is having AC 16 (Breastplate + Dex) seems a bit low, and if I'm missing out on some significantly better/more interesting by not choosing the other feats etc.

Our DM isn't allowing Silvery Barbs.

I've read before that the thing for archer bards is swift quiver and greater steed. Do bards get any kind of teleportation/misty step/flying/invisibility/waterwalk and other such spells? Always found those to be so fun! Also, interested in stuff to help me get in and out of places etc. (wanna be able to position myself to shoot enemies from good locations, maybe scout from stealthy place like climbing trees etc.). This stuff I can get more info on as I go, though, for now just trying to get an idea of biggest impact decisions for start to set myself up for success :)

[Frogreaver]

What about:


Use the 2nd array I have there (10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16.)
Skill Expert or Observant to get WIS to 14 (better skills, saving throws etc.) OR Fighter Initiate (Archery Fighting Style) for +2 attack to help offset the -5 from Sharpshooter feat later.
Level 4 bump CHA to 18
Level 8 Sharpshooter (love the idea of having sniper skills thematic to my char)
Level 12 Dex 18 or CHA 20


only thing that worries me is having AC 16 (Breastplate + Dex) seems a bit low, and if I'm missing out on some significantly better/more interesting by not choosing the other feats etc.

Our DM isn't allowing Silvery Barbs.

I've read before that the thing for archer bards is swift quiver and greater steed. Do bards get any kind of teleportation/misty step/flying/invisibility/waterwalk and other such spells? Always found those to be so fun! Also, interested in stuff to help me get in and out of places etc. (wanna be able to position myself to shoot enemies from good locations, maybe scout from stealthy place like climbing trees etc.). This stuff I can get more info on as I go, though, for now just trying to get an idea of biggest impact decisions for start to set myself up for success :)

I wouldn't do SS with a 16 dex character at level 8. Even with Archery style. I think you are trying to force your character in too many different directions at once.

If you want to go all out archery then focus on dex instead of charisma. Start with Archery style, for level 4 and 8 ASI's boost Dex +2 and take SS, your choice on order. At level 12 finish maxing your dex (you now can get 17 AC with studded leather as well).

Personally, I'd have went with the more hybrid route as bardic inspiration and AOE control spells seem to me what the bard is best at. Taking a small hit in those things (not maxing charisma or taking resilient con early) and getting my bow use up to a servicable but not great.

The bottom line is you can't do it all.

[CTurbo]

I agree with prioritizing Dex more especially before getting SS. I'd also definitely start with Fighting Initiate for Archery which I feel is a must have for any serious archer character.

Id use the array that gets you 16 Dex, 14 Con, and 16 Cha.

You WILL have to make some sacrifices to get everything you're looking for.

You could start Fighter 1 for Archery and Con saves, but that puts off your 2nd attack until character level 7.

You could start Sorcerer 1(Draconic) for Con saves and 13+Dex AC which is better than what Light or Medium armor would give you. Also more spells and cantrips.

You could take Crossbow Expert instead of SS and keep a shield handy when needed. Instead of Swift Quiver, take Holy Weapon.. Three hand crossbow attacks with Holy Weapon would deal a lot more damage than 4 longbow attacks via Swift Quiver. Of course you can still add SS to this setup later on.

You asked about Bard spells? Bards get any spells they want. Period.

[OlegRU]

I wouldn't do SS with a 16 dex character at level 8. Even with Archery style. I think you are trying to force your character in too many different directions at once.

If you want to go all out archery then focus on dex instead of charisma. Start with Archery style, for level 4 and 8 ASI's boost Dex +2 and take SS, your choice on order. At level 12 finish maxing your dex (you now can get 17 AC with studded leather as well).

Personally, I'd have went with the more hybrid route as bardic inspiration and AOE control spells seem to me what the bard is best at. Taking a small hit in those things (not maxing charisma or taking resilient con early) and getting my bow use up to a servicable but not great.

The bottom line is you can't do it all.


I think you're pretty right, but I guess here I was trying to do the closest thing to "having it all" hehe

What if I do starting stats 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16. and Fighting Initiate for Archery FS

Then

18 Cha
18 Dex
SS
20 Cha
20 dex

or something like that...

or are you saying there's no room for me to do SS at all?

But to reply, yes, I'd like a fun caster but that is also a kind of badass sniper when not busy casting etc.

[Eldariel]

You can do SS. I played that build (though I would strongly recommend Swords Bard over Valor; Flourishes work at range meaning you get to do some actual Archery stuff with clss features) in the Tiamat-killing run and found that it works pretty well. With the free Archery style (Alert is stronger of course, but if you wanna be an archer, go that route), it's pretty good.

Eventually you'll be able to get Magic Jar from Magical Secrets and body upgrade for higher Dex off a defeated humanoid enemy. But even 16 Dex + SS + Archery is fine; though you'll want some party support there (Bless, advantage, etc. are great - of course you CAN get Advantage on your own with e.g. Greater Invisibility or e.g. Silent Image for Unseen Attacker in many cases, but numerics are nice). SS lets you ignore cover, which is huge (e.g. creatures provide cover).

Don't forget XBE as an option either. If you go Swords, your bonus action will often be free.

[OlegRU]

I agree with prioritizing Dex more especially before getting SS. I'd also definitely start with Fighting Initiate for Archery which I feel is a must have for any serious archer character.

Id use the array that gets you 16 Dex, 14 Con, and 16 Cha.

You WILL have to make some sacrifices to get everything you're looking for.

You could start Fighter 1 for Archery and Con saves, but that puts off your 2nd attack until character level 7.

You could start Sorcerer 1(Draconic) for Con saves and 13+Dex AC which is better than what Light or Medium armor would give you. Also more spells and cantrips.

You could take Crossbow Expert instead of SS and keep a shield handy when needed. Instead of Swift Quiver, take Holy Weapon.. Three hand crossbow attacks with Holy Weapon would deal a lot more damage than 4 longbow attacks via Swift Quiver. Of course you can still add SS to this setup later on.

You asked about Bard spells? Bards get any spells they want. Period.

So you agree about the 2nd array (i was leaning towards it - the 13 in wis sucks tho, would be nice to get boost for skills, not sure if anything else in the game can get me +1, but that's just my mind wandering on tangents, all of that is nothing when ur enjoying urself playing, and for that just need to decide on the main stuff. )

I feel like doing fighter 1 would be a bit redundant - I lose dex saves (and cha saves are also encountered later game) to get con, which is okay due to concentration, and a +2 to hit... yet I'm a level behind for all kind of cool bard ****, and valor gives me a bunch of proficiencies etc. i'd get from fighter.

Starting sorcerer wouldn't fit my char at all unfortunately (a half-elf small town farmboy wilderness escort/guide). And I really don't like aesthetic of Xbows over bows, esp for this guy. Sorry to be so picky and difficult :/

I know bard have access to all spells through magical secrets - but with that isn't it that you take 2 spells and that's it (and in this case likely going to be taken by swift quiver/holy weapon and greater teed)?

I was asking if they have access besides that, to those types of cool spells i mentioned. Like teleporting around for example would be very useful for my char or flying etc. And waterwalk is just fkin cool i remember it from back in the old computer rpgs. I dont think ive ever gotten to use it tho. But anyway, dont want to take focus off the core char build here which is ability scores and feat and some idea of what happens at the next ASIs...i seems to keep doing that.

[OlegRU]

You can do SS. I played that build (though I would strongly recommend Swords Bard over Valor; Flourishes work at range meaning you get to do some actual Archery stuff with clss features) in the Tiamat-killing run and found that it works pretty well. With the free Archery style (Alert is stronger of course, but if you wanna be an archer, go that route), it's pretty good.

Eventually you'll be able to get Magic Jar from Magical Secrets and body upgrade for higher Dex off a defeated humanoid enemy. But even 16 Dex + SS + Archery is fine; though you'll want some party support there (Bless, advantage, etc. are great - of course you CAN get Advantage on your own with e.g. Greater Invisibility or e.g. Silent Image for Unseen Attacker in many cases, but numerics are nice). SS lets you ignore cover, which is huge (e.g. creatures provide cover).

Don't forget XBE as an option either. If you go Swords, your bonus action will often be free.

Just read magic jar - and was like woah wtf lol - I didn't know such a spell existed. I'm not sure if my char would do something like that TBH haha, but it's really wild.

So seems like many people, despite the other feats that are more interesting/even powerful, recommend the archery for simply the +2 attack! Is it even a toss up with the others, or if I'm going bow that's the way to go for free feat?

I remember looking at swords a while and valor and really liking valor, as well as reading lots of posts about one vs other, including for ranged bard and valor seemed to win most of the time. So I want to stick to valor I think, esp as it embodies chars personality more and story.

If I'm doing Valor, what is the suggested array to start with and choice for the next few ASIs?

I think for advantage there's faerie fire... any other good ways to get it?

I def am interested in other fun spells that would allow me to get in/out and get around - some kind of teleportations, invisibilities, flies/climbs etc.

[llama-hedge]

Other than Dimension Door and (Greater) Invisibility, bards don't really get the effects you describe. A lore bard can get them at level 6 through their extra magical secrets, but you would have to give up extra attack.

[Eldariel]

Fey-touched for Misty Step and e.g. Bless or Command or Gift of Alacrity ks probably pretty decent, especially if you go Swords (meaning the +1 Cha will fuel your Flourish uses). This would play into the "Teleport around"-part. If you go Valor, Inspiration is still decent so it's quite okay either way.

[OlegRU]

I'd like to be battle efficient, but not sacrificing the cool and powerful spells/important bard levels for it. At the same time, I know that an optimized bard can be very casty, and ignores the battle efficiency, so I don't want to do that either. I'd like to be a fun and decent enough bowman, while also being able to cast etc. (i.e. I'm okay to not have CHA 20 super soon if it means I'm decent at bow and combat, but also not sacrificing too much of the magic and stuff) .

So was thinking maybe start 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16, and Fighter Initiate AFS, but then take CHA 18 as lvl 4 ASI, then maybe Dex 18 or SS on lvl 8, but then lvl 12 I'm not sure if CHA 20 or whichever of Dex 18/SS I didn't grab for 8..... and so on... something more balanced like that. Is there a better way to do this?

I guess doing the 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16 gives me 3 level ups to think and even if I get 18 cha @ 4th, there's still flexibility what i can do at lvl 8 etc..... though it would be nice to plot a course roughly.

[Hairfish]

It's a 5th-level spell*, so you won't have access to it until bard level 9, but I've often entertained the idea of an archer bard (barcher?) that opens combat by tossing a quiver into the air and casting Animate Objects on all the arrows.

Then the arrows swirl and swarm around you, whirling out to tear through nearby foes while you fire on your primary target.

* Then again, so is Swift Quiver and you have to use a magical secrets pick to get that. Both spells require concentration and use your bonus action, so there are various situations where one would be superior to the other.

[solidork]

Aid makes a great prebuff.

It's also a pretty good in combat healing spell - ranged, multiple targets, strong scaling. Many bards don't have anything too impressive to do with their action if they're casting the other spells that can fill those niches (Healing Word, Mass Healing Word) so casting Aid and then using your Bardic Inspiration is a pretty attractive choice. That shouldn't be true of this character, though; going Valor and taking options to make your attack better makes the bonus action efficiency much more relevant.

[OlegRU]

So it sounds like doing the 10, 16, 14, 10, 13, 16 and fighter initiate for archery fs works either way and gives me some time to consider, as I'm playing the campaign and seeing what works/what i like etc.

Even taking CHA 18 lvl4 still leaves things kinda open.

Any other tips you guys can give me, if at lvl 4 I still don't know whether to raise dex @lvl 8/get SS (at all) and cha @ lvl 12 or lvl 8 CHA again then dex or ss lvl 12 etc. ?

im excited about this char!

And you guys are so helpful