Familiar as the party's "Rogue"

[Raven777]

Hello everyone! Here's a use case Google is kind of letting me down on. Let's remedy that for posterity!

My current party is lacking in the classical rogue department. We're a mix of mid level full casters and pure martials, and nobody is really building towards the classical scout / find traps / pick locks job. Leadership is frowned upon, so it's unlikely we get a skill monkey that way, either. On the other hand...

I will turn my familiar into a Faerie Dragon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-faerie/) soon. The Faerie Dragon is widely known out of the box as a very competent UMD provider and scout. I am also allowed to rebuild my particular specimen's two feats, skills and spells selection. Obviously, this synergizes really well with the Faerie Dragon's really good Dragon class skills list, plus benefiting from my own skill ranks in places, while covering for skills I lack with her own. I can even get her Disable Device and Sleight of Hand as class Skills through switching a feat for Extra Traits and custom (game specific) traits. Finally, a Greater Hat of Disguise can provide her with a humanoid form at will.

There's also the Infiltrator (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/infiltrator-familiar-archetype/) or Pilferer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/pilferer-familiar-archetype/) archetypes, but they don't really seem to bring much to the table. For exemple, the former's telepathic bond is the most interesting feature, but can eventually be replicated by the actual spell + permanency, without sacrificing several Familiar features forever.

I'm curious if anyone here has experience with using a familiar as their party's skill monkey, up to and including replacing a dedicated scout / trap finder / lock picker outright. Similarly, are there any interesting second feat, archetypes or tactics I could consider? Finally, though powerful, the Familiar will still be stunted by relevant Skill ranks (Disable Device, Stealth, Sleight of Hand) remaining low, because they're not ones we directly share, and I would appreciate opinions on that, if any. Hopefully, the topic can help anyone who, likes me, Googles that subject some day. Thanks, everyone!

[Rynjin]

The issue you're mostly gonna run into is that even with max ranks and a high bonus in Disable Device, your Faerie Dragon still doesn't have Trapfinding.

You're 7th level already. You're not exactly gonna be encountering a bunch of mundane traps, and the ones you do encounter are not going to be a threat to you. What's a 30 foot hole to someone with 70+ HP?

By the time you have Improved Familiar you're already past the stage of the game where having a Rogue matters much, if at all.

The only way this could kinda be useful to you is if your GM allows your Familiar to take the (campaign specific for Mummy's Mask) Trap Finder trait since being able to disable magical traps without using a spell slot is still a nice quality of life bonus.

Otherwise, you buy them a wand of Aram Zey's Focus (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Aram%20Zey%27s%20Focus) and call it a day.

TL;DR: The reason you won't find much guidance on turning your Familiar into a Rogue is that by the time you can, the entire Rogue class can be invalidated by a single spell.

[Eldonauran]

Yeah, I'm with Rynjin on this one. Personally, I'd just bite the bullet and dip a level into Rogue and pump that Disable Device up. The extra sneak attack damage can help almost any martial character, and a skill focus feat will help immensely if you don't have a high enough ability score to really make disabling optimal. That is what I did in our Giantslayer campaign.

[Kurald Galain]

Figment archetype can get +8 to a skill of your choice, that's pretty good for a "rogue".

[Rynjin]

Yeah, I'm with Rynjin on this one. Personally, I'd just bite the bullet and dip a level into Rogue and pump that Disable Device up. The extra sneak attack damage can help almost any martial character, and a skill focus feat will help immensely if you don't have a high enough ability score to really make disabling optimal. That is what I did in our Giantslayer campaign.

Dropping a full caster level just for Trapfinding seems suspect when, as mentioned, you could just learn and cast a 2nd level spell instead.

[Eldonauran]

Dropping a full caster level just for Trapfinding seems suspect when, as mentioned, you could just learn and cast a 2nd level spell instead.Only if you hold to the unquestionable 'thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels' commandment that optimizers hold in high regard. Also, provided that spell is allowed to begin with. I dropped FOUR caster levels in my build and still manage to hold my own as a full caster. Its not really that hard. Besides, getting Evasion more than made up for everything I lost, with how often its saved that character's life.

[Rynjin]

Uh-huh, okay.

[Thunder999]

Aram Zey's Focus is the best way to handle traps as a caster, no real reason to have a familiar do it though, they share your skill ranks and are squishier than you.

[Eldonauran]

Uh-huh, okay.Your experience may differ depending on what level of play you engage with at the table. For the typical 20pt buy that stays within general expectations of the CR system and doesn't throw +3 CR encounters at the party to more than slightly inconvenience them due to hyperfocusing on combat ... Well, you don't NEED to squeeze out every drop of power. Just shore up your caster level with a trait or feat, and make due with a slightly smaller pool of spell slots. There is more than one way to play the game, and the RIGHT way is the one in which everyone is having fun.

[Rynjin]

Your experience may differ depending on what level of play you engage with at the table. For the typical 20pt buy that stays within general expectations of the CR system and doesn't throw +3 CR encounters at the party to more than slightly inconvenience them due to hyperfocusing on combat ... Well, you don't NEED to squeeze out every drop of power. Just shore up your caster level with a trait or feat, and make due with a slightly smaller pool of spell slots. There is more than one way to play the game, and the RIGHT way is the one in which everyone is having fun.

That wasn't what the "uh-huh" was for; I just don't think it's really a discussion worth having in this particular thread, which isn't about pure op in the first place. It's about (specifically) whether a Familiar can make a good Rogue replacement (the answer is "eh, kinda, it doesn't take much investment") and to a lesser extent whether having the trapfinder role is even worthwhile.

I feel as though if Raven777 wanted to take a level in Rogue they would have, instead of searching for a workaround.

[Eldonauran]

That wasn't what the "uh-huh" was for; I just don't think it's really a discussion worth having in this particular thread...Right. Short responses are not the easiest statements to interpret. I agree.

[vasilidor]

If you need something for traps, that is what Summon Monster I is for.
If you need something for scouting, then yeah, a familiar that can turn invisible is not a bad choice.

[Raven777]

Thanks for the keen observations, y'all. I think the direction of a continuous wondrous item of Aram Zey's Focus is where I'm gonna take things. Then any party member can play Rogue duty as needed for magical traps. Or a wand, sure, if crafting a continuous item doesn't fly past GM approval. I realize I'm mostly about the scout fantasy for my familiar, but I realize one does not need to be a Rogue to stealth, steal or pick locks.

[Rynjin]

If you want that class fantasy, make your next character a Summoner. The Skill Monkey Eidolon is actually a pretty legit build. You basically summon it up outside of combat to do scouting etc., then dismiss it before combat and start spamming out summons with your SLAs.

Spiritualists by extension are pretty good at this too. You don't have the "dismiss and summon" luxury, but Spirits also make better scouts by default since they can pass through walls unseen.

[Eldonauran]

If you want that class fantasy, make your next character a Summoner. The Skill Monkey Eidolon is actually a pretty legit build. You basically summon it up outside of combat to do scouting etc., then dismiss it before combat and start spamming out summons with your SLAs.

Spiritualists by extension are pretty good at this too. You don't have the "dismiss and summon" luxury, but Spirits also make better scouts by default since they can pass through walls unseen.
On this train of thought, the Elemental Ally (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Druid%20Elemental% 20Ally) Druid has the most flexibility in customizing FOUR different Eidolons for your specific needs. Scouting? Face smashing? Lock picking? Take your pick, and then choose another after a minute.

[Maat Mons]

Instead of reshuffling the fairy dragon's skills into Perception and Disable Device, you could buy two Headbands of Vast Intelligence.

Get one linked to Perception, which you wear. This gives you ranks in Perception equal to your hit dice. Your familiar will share these skill ranks, as with all your other skill ranks.

Get the other linked to Disable Device, which the fairy dragon wears. This gives it ranks in Disable Device equal to its hit dice... except it treats its hit dice as being equal to yours, as familiars always do, so it actually gains ranks in Disable Device equal to your hit dice.

Perception is definitely the skill you want on your own slot, because both you and your familiar having good Perception checks is handy. Disable Device, on the other hand, isn't very useful to have on multiple party members.

If you already have a maxxed Perception (and you should), then just get the Headband keyed to Disable Device.

You can also get your familiar either Trapspringer's Gloves or a Ring of Maniacal Devices, whichever you prefer.

[Zanos]

Weirdly enough you only need trapfinding to disarm magical traps, not to find them. If you have access to disposable minions or just a bit of craftiness and some equipment, you can "disarm" most traps by just setting them off safely unless they automatically reset, in which case you can at least use dispel magic to disable them temporarily. The feature really isn't that critical.


Only if you hold to the unquestionable 'thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels' commandment that optimizers hold in high regard. Also, provided that spell is allowed to begin with. I dropped FOUR caster levels in my build and still manage to hold my own as a full caster. Its not really that hard. Besides, getting Evasion more than made up for everything I lost, with how often its saved that character's life.
When people give people advice it's usually how to do something effectively. Generally, folks don't ask for build help to learn how to do something ineffectively. I assume OP is perfectly aware that he can just take a rogue level to get trapfinding and does not want to do that.

Personally I'd raise an eyebrow at a "full caster" who was two full spell levels behind the normal curve, and I don't think having evasion is worth not having, say, 5th level spells instead of 3rd level spells. To some degree the game expects someone who occupies the role of a full caster to have access to certain effects by certain levels.

[Rynjin]

Weirdly enough you only need trapfinding to disarm magical traps, not to find them. If you have access to disposable minions or just a bit of craftiness and some equipment, you can "disarm" most traps by just setting them off safely unless they automatically reset, in which case you can at least use dispel magic to disable them temporarily. The feature really isn't that critical.

Yeppers. This is pretty much the main point as to why Rogues fall off after ~5th level. When your entire existence can be replaced by everyone else in the party putting points in Perception (yeah, a real tough sell, that one) and chipping in for a wand of Mount, you're kind of in dire straits.

Having Trapfinding is a luxury that better classes (like Investigator) find to be a nice little bonus on top of the rest of their massively powerful class features. But it's not a necessity.

[Eldonauran]

When people give people advice it's usually how to do something effectively. Generally, folks don't ask for build help to learn how to do something ineffectively. I assume OP is perfectly aware that he can just take a rogue level to get trapfinding and does not want to do that. How people view what is effective or not varies greatly from table to table, and within the type of game they are playing. My comment about dipping the level for rogue could be seen as efficient depending on your viewpoint. The less hoops you have to jump through to achieve your goal. The OP's question has been answered sufficiently and rehashing the suggestions of others really serves no point.


Personally I'd raise an eyebrow at a "full caster" who was two full spell levels behind the normal curve, and I don't think having evasion is worth not having, say, 5th level spells instead of 3rd level spells. To some degree the game expects someone who occupies the role of a full caster to have access to certain effects by certain levels.Feel free to raise both of your eyebrows. The game is complex enough and open enough that someone who chooses to deviate that much from their spellcasting can more than make up the difference between 3rd and 5th level spells with application of intelligence and forethought on how they spend their wealth and what other members of the party are capable of. In my case, I thought it was a far better trade off to gain the ability to ROFL-stomp anything that dared get within 15ft of the character because they made the mistake of assuming that character was a squishy caster, only to find tendrils of hair grappling and pinning them in rapid succession, followed by their allies dog piling on top of them while their defenses were massively reduced.

But this is getting off topic, so I'll stop there.

[Rynjin]

The funniest thing about all this is that nothing you mentioned is helped by the Rogue levels, and they actively hinder your melee gameplan of grappling people with your hair by stunting your White Hair progression.

[Eldonauran]

The funniest thing about all this is that nothing you mentioned is helped by the Rogue levels, and they actively hinder your melee gameplan of grappling people with your hair by stunting your White Hair progression.The only 'funny' thing is that you are not privy to the specifics on the build. There are FOUR class levels that deviated from the witch levels (so far). I never said they were all Rogue, nor what other choices were made for class abilities or feats, which ended up making my BAB for grapple equal to my level. What is important about the Rogue level(s) is that I took them to fill a role that was needed.

We are getting more off topic now.

[Rynjin]

Then please stop bringing it up.

[Eldonauran]

Then please stop bringing it up.Gladly. Same goes for anyone else that wants to comment about it. Nitpicking someone else's suggestion or advice when it has nothing to do with the conversation is a waste of everyone's time and does nothing to foster goodwill.


As far as the actual topic of conversation, the headband of intelligence for the familiar is a great suggestion. I rarely spend wealth on my familiars and sometimes forget that they have the ability to wear magic items as well.

[Gnaeus]

If you need something for traps, that is what Summon Monster I is for.
If you need something for scouting, then yeah, a familiar that can turn invisible is not a bad choice.

Summon monster (or mount) is not as helpful as all that ime. It typically tells you if there is a trap in the hall you are walking down. It may or may not help deal with the trap depending on whether it resets. It will very much not help with the alarm trap that triggers a giant fight against every monster in the complex at the same time, other than being the first casualty in the TPK. Nor does it help solve the trapped chest that just destroyed your loot.

Personally, I would rather have a trapfinder in group than a wand that costs 92 gp every time I need to search something. But maybe my group just uses traps more than most.

[Rynjin]

You don't need the wand to search, you can do that with the Perception skill that almost everyone in the party is guaranteed to have max ranks in.

If you find a trap that can't be dealt with via Mount, you find another way around or through. 95% of traps are easily disabled by just triggering them and dealing with the fallout afterward. Another 4% can be dealt with by Dispel magic.

The last 1% aren't traps but Hazards which might actually change the terrain, but I'm not going to make somebody in the party gimp themselves to deal with the rare 1% corner case of what is already a very small subset of the average game.