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Swooper
2007-12-05, 12:33 PM
I've been thinking about the fighter class lately. It has no class features at all, only bonus feats. A fighter 20 with two flaws has 20 feats in total, 21 if human. This means that during his career, a fighter can perfect not just one fighting style, but in fact several, becoming a melee brute competent at dealing damage, taking damage (and save-or-X effects too) and yet be flexible in tactics and not rely on just one trick. But not just a melee brute, because melee is not always possible - against foes that you can't reach easily, for example. So he would need to be able to adapt to that by dealing damage from a far as well, right?

I know a single-classed fighter stands little chance against an optimized CoDzilla or something of the kind, but I want to see what is the absolutely best fighter 20 you powerbuilders can come up with.

These are the rules:

32 point buy stats.
You may use any and all splatbooks you can get your hands on, as long as they're published by WotC.
All your 20 class levels must be Fighter. No PrC or anything.
You may use Fighter substitution levels or substitution class features if you like.
No LA races.
Wealth by level for a 20th level character, so 760,000gp.
The build should not only be viable at level 20, but as soon as possible.
Leadership is allowed, but your cohort may not be any 'full caster' class, including psionics, incarnum and all that.
Assume the fighter will be a part of a party with a single classed wizard, cleric and rogue who don't make a point of optimizing (but don't go straight blaster, healbot and trapmonkey either). They are there, but don't rely on them too much.

Craig1f
2007-12-05, 12:59 PM
I've been thinking about the fighter class lately. It has no class features at all, only bonus feats. A fighter 20 with two flaws has 20 feats in total, 21 if human. This means that during his career, a fighter can perfect not just one fighting style, but in fact several, becoming a melee brute competent at dealing damage, taking damage (and save-or-X effects too) and yet be flexible in tactics and not rely on just one trick. But not just a melee brute, because melee is not always possible - against foes that you can't reach easily, for example. So he would need to be able to adapt to that by dealing damage from a far as well, right?

I know a single-classed fighter stands little chance against an optimized CoDzilla or something of the kind, but I want to see what is the absolutely best fighter 20 you powerbuilders can come up with.

These are the rules:

32 point buy stats.
You may use any and all splatbooks you can get your hands on, as long as they're published by WotC.
All your 20 class levels must be Fighter. No PrC or anything.
You may use Fighter substitution levels or substitution class features if you like.
No LA races.
Wealth by level for a 20th level character, so 760,000gp.
The build should not only be viable at level 20, but as soon as possible.
Leadership is allowed, but your cohort may not be any 'full caster' class, including psionics, incarnum and all that.
Assume the fighter will be a part of a party with a single classed wizard, cleric and rogue who don't make a point of optimizing (but don't go straight blaster, healbot and trapmonkey either). They are there, but don't rely on them too much.


H: Power Attack
1: Cleave
F1:Dodge
F2: Improved Bull Rush
3: Mobility
F4: Improved Sunder
6: Leap Attack
F6: Shock Trooper (CW) (for heedless attack)
F8: Eleusive Target (CW) (for Negate Power Attack combined with Heedless Attack)
9: Combat Brute (CW) (for momentum swing)


So you use a heedless charge, dropping your AC by 11, but increasing your damage by 27. The monsters, if he survives, probably responds with a brutal power attack, which is negated by the Eleusive Target ability, Negate Power Attack. You follow up the next round with a x3 power attack from Momentum Swing from the Combat Brute Feat.

You've also got a bunch of other cool abilities from those three tactical feats. I really love those 3-for-the-price-of-1 feats from Complete Warrior.

I'm sure there are better builds, but you could have a lot of fun with this.

Inyssius Tor
2007-12-05, 01:06 PM
This isn't contributing, but:

Actual, well-defined, well-thought-out rules! I love it!

Swooper
2007-12-05, 01:20 PM
This isn't contributing, but:

Actual, well-defined, well-thought-out rules! I love it!
Heh, thanks :smallwink:

Craig1f - That's just a pretty standard übercharger. It doesn't really have any of the versatility I mentioned in the OP. Against a flying, invisible target, you'd be screwed. Also, it's not a complete build as it lacks gear, stats and levels beyond 9.

elliott20
2007-12-05, 01:22 PM
well, craig1f's only goes up to level 9, so that means he'll still have more room to pick up some archery feats to get better at that. If done right, that oughta take care of the air thing. (That is, until the wizard puts up a protection against arrow spell and totally ruin your day)

Invisibility, well, there's pretty no other way around that other than buying magical items.

Craig1f
2007-12-05, 01:57 PM
well, craig1f's only goes up to level 9, so that means he'll still have more room to pick up some archery feats to get better at that. If done right, that oughta take care of the air thing. (That is, until the wizard puts up a protection against arrow spell and totally ruin your day)

Invisibility, well, there's pretty no other way around that other than buying magical items.

There is a skill trick that'll let you see invisible opponents once per minute. You could also pick up Earth Sense from Races of Stone. Blindfighting is also a good choice. Other than that, you pretty much have to have items to help you.

If you focus on Listen and Spot, you will have a good chance of detecting the 5-ft-sqare that the creature is in with a listen check, which, combined with Blindfighting, will give you a 75% chance of hitting. The DC to see an invisible creature that is not hiding is DC20, so you have a pretty good chance at that as well.

As for aerial combatents, Rapid Shot with some Sure Shot arrows are good. Make sure you get a Composite Bow for damage. The bow feats are all pretty standard. I don't see a solution for flyers other than shooting them, or grappling with them before they start flying.

cupkeyk
2007-12-05, 02:00 PM
My guy is SAD, he will only need STR.

1 Weapon Focus (trident)
1 Power Attack 2d6+(str*2)
2 Dungeoncrasher1
3 Brutal Throw
4 Point Blank Shot
6 Improved Bullrush
6 Dungeoncrasher2 8d6+(str*3)
8 Shocktrooper
9 Weapon Specialization (trident)
10 Greater Weapon Focus (trident)
12 Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
12 Precise Shot
14 Driving Attack
15 Greater Weapon Specialization (trident)
16 Power Throw
18 Weapon Supremacy (trident)
18 Rapid Shot
20 Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)

I simply wanted to use the iconic fighter feature of Weapon Supremacy. He can throw his trident to deadly effect or better yet, drive opponents into and up the walls.

Gear would include several tridents, preferably returning.

I didn't use flaws nor a human. I would prefer to make him half orc cause half orcs don't get enough love.

Person_Man
2007-12-05, 02:04 PM
I have a very playable build in mind, but it requires Goliath, Half-Giant, or some other Large sized race, all of which have LA. Alternatively, you need your DM to allow Jotobrund (Races of Faerun) to count as Powerful Build. It's similar, but because of the working it doesn't qualify for you for Knockback (Races of Stone). You could also just have someone cast Enlarge Person on you and pay to have it Permanenced, but then you're subject to having it dispelled.

At low levels use Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape) + Knockback to gain massive damage and battlefield control.

Use Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror) or Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness) to gain reach.

Use TWF + Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) + Combat Reflexes + Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior) + Robilar's Gambit + Overpowering Attack (PHBII). Now whenever an enemy hits you, you hit them back four times, and each attack is for double damage.

Use Combat Vigor + Combat Stability (PHBII) to gain Fast Healing and resistance to every special attack (Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Trip).

Use Resolute (Complete Champion) to buff your Will Save when needed.

Use Pierce Magical Concealment (Complete Arcane) to avoid the miss chance from any magical effect.

playswithfire
2007-12-05, 02:16 PM
Invisibility, well, there's pretty no other way around that other than buying magical items.

If I might suggest the Blindfold of True Darkness from the MIC; 60' blindsight for the low, low price of 9,000 gp; also immmunity to gaze attacks etc since it's a blindfold.

Not much else to contribute but I thought I'd throw that out there.

cupkeyk
2007-12-05, 03:39 PM
I have a very playable build in mind, but it requires Goliath, Half-Giant, or some other Large sized race, all of which have LA. Alternatively, you need your DM to allow Jotobrund (Races of Faerun) to count as Powerful Build. It's similar, but because of the working it doesn't qualify for you for Knockback (Races of Stone). You could also just have someone cast Enlarge Person on you and pay to have it Permanenced, but then you're subject to having it dispelled.

At low levels use Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape) + Knockback to gain massive damage and battlefield control.

If that Fighter takes Martial Study: Charging Minotaur and Adaptive Style, can he spend a full round action to replenish his maneuver?

Person_Man
2007-12-05, 03:44 PM
Invisibility, well, there's pretty no other way around that other than buying magical items.

You can use Martial Stance (I forget which one) to gain the Scent ability. Or you can just have a really high Listen modifier. This will allow you to locate the square of most Invisible enemies within 30 feet. Then take Pierce Magical Concealment to ignore the miss chance.

Having said that, its much more efficient to just buy an item that gives you See Invisibility or something similar a limited number of times per day. It's unlikely that your DM will use Invisible enemies for more then a few encounters per day.


If that Fighter takes Martial Study: Charging Minotaur and Adaptive Style, can he spend a full round action to replenish his maneuver?

You could, but its a very inefficient tactic.

The benefit of the Knockback feat is that it gives you a free Bull Rush every time you hit an enemy, and it allows you to add your Power Attack bonus to the Bull Rush check. So you could potentially Bull Rush everyone within your reach, or Bull Rush the same enemy over and over again until it works. It's much more efficient then any ToB maneuver, especially when combined with Shock Trooper's various tactical maneuvers and the Dungeoncrasher ability.

For example:

Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of DOOM!!!

Goliath
Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X

or

Half-Giant
Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X

If your DM cares about experience penalties for multi-classing, you'll want to use Goliath Barbarian 6/Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/full BAB class. Or if you're willing to give up all day Pounce, the quickest method to get the combo working is Half Giant Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X.

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Hold the Line, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Dodge, Karmic Strike.

Other Feats for Consideration: Improved Unarmed Strike, Battle Jump, Mage Slayer, Extra Rage.

Books: SRD, Complete Warrior, Races of Stone (Knockback), Unapproachable East (Battle Jump), Dungeonscape (Dungeon Crasher ability), Complete Champion (Barbarian Pounce variant).

Before combat, use the Expansion power on yourself to increase your reach. Also, you should also note that all whips, including fire lashes, don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. So you'll need Improved Unarmed Strike, armor spikes, or a natural weapon to make AoO. My preference is Claws of the Beast. Note that the FAQ specifically clarifies that you can switch between a two handed weapon and a natural weapon for in the same round. If your DM doesn't agree with the FAQ, you can use Bite of the Wolf or dip into a one level of Monk instead.

There are also a variety of spells, feats, items, and special abilities that improve your natural reach, and I suggest you use whatever you can.

Charge 10 feet into your enemy. Make a touch attack with your Fire Lash as a two-handed weapon (as it explicitly says you can in the FAQ). Transfer your full BAB to Leap Attack to increase your damage. Make sure that your initial enemy is close to you when you attack him if possible, as you want to keep your enemies in your threatened area each time you knock him back.

If your enemy is standing next to another enemy, each attack also applies to them (Warmind Sweeping Strike). Since Sweeping Strike requires that you move no more then 10 feet during your turn, you can use Hustle+Psionic Dimension Door to move around the battlefield. But your reach is pretty huge, so you shouldn't have to do that very often. You can also just wait for your enemies to come to you, and ready an action to smack them when they come near you.

Each enemy that you hit gets a free Bull Rush attempt (Knockback) on each attack, applying your damage and Leap Attack bonus to the opposed Str check.

This should allow you to push your enemy several spaces backwards. For each space you move your enemy backwards, you may also shift him one hex to the left or the right (Shock Trooper). If this pushes your enemy into the same hex as another enemy, you get a free Trip Attempt on each of them (Shock Trooper, again).

Assuming you still threaten their spaces, each successful Trip gets a free follow up attack (Improved Trip), and each successful melee attack gets a free Bull Rush, which can start another Shock Trooper+Improved Trip combo. And every melee attack can also apply to someone standing next to your enemy using Sweeping Strike.

If you kill someone (you will) you get a Cleave attack, which will also apply to whoever is standing next to them, and start the Attack+Bull Rush+Trip+Attack... combo, again.

And at any time you can Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or other inanimate object, you get to use the Dungeon Crasher ability to deal an extra 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage, in addition to your insane Leap Attack damage. This is really easy to pull off, since with Shock Trooper and your uber Bull Rush multiplier, you should be able to fling enemies pretty far. Alternatively, you can have a friend summon a wall in the middle of the battlefield, forcing your enemies to walk around it, and giving you something to Bull Rush them into.
Also note that dead bodies are considered objects, and not allies or enemies. So once you kill something, you should be able to fling enemies into their dead comrades (though your DM will probably rule that they need to be Large size or bigger in order for this to work).

In addition, a whip provokes an AoO from your enemy whenever you use it while adjacent to it. This is a great opportunity for you, because thanks to Karmic Strike it essentially gives you another chance to start up your chain of attacks if by some odd chance you miss on your first touch attack. Though obviously if you're more defense oriented, you'll want to keep your enemies 10 feet away from you when you hit them with the lash.

Using the Complete Champion Barbarian variant, you get Pounce. So you get a full attack virtually every round.

Or if you'd prefer better Expansion and less Pounce, you can dump your Barbarian levels and invest in more Warmind levels earlier instead, depending on Psionic Lion's Charge or Hustle when you need a full attack.

If someone charges you (they pretty much have to in order reach you) you get a free AoO from Hold the Line, resolved immediately before the charge attack, in addition to the normal AoO you'd get for them moving through your threatened area. Which AGAIN, can trigger your combo.

Be sure to buy a backup reach weapon that doesn't deal fire damage. Your DM is most definitely going to throw fire immune enemies at you. See Invisibility or something similar will also help a lot, as will flight.

Also, I'm well aware that this requires an obscene number of feats for the full combo to work. If you think its too many, just drop feats from the end of the list. All you really need is Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Knockback, Shock Trooper, and Dungeoncrasher. Everything else is just gravy.

You could pull this off as a pure Fighter. It'd just be less effective.

brian c
2007-12-05, 05:17 PM
The benefit of the Knockback feat is that it gives you a free Bull Rush every time you hit an enemy, and it allows you to add your Power Attack bonus to the Bull Rush check. So you could potentially Bull Rush everyone within your reach, or Bull Rush the same enemy over and over again until it works.

Hm... how would this work in conjunction with the War Hulk mighty swings? The 10th level war hulk swing lets you attack everyone you threaten, as long as there's line of effect between them. If you're Large-sized (which you have to be in order to take War Hulk) and have a spiked chain, that could be a lot of bullrushes

Indon
2007-12-05, 05:43 PM
This isn't the best warrior by a long shot, but I wanted to combine a few wacky ideas.

My proposal uses the "Sneaky" Fighter variant listed in UA.

Lose: Fighter bonus feats
Gain: Rogue Sneak Attack

He is human. He takes the following stat array:
Str-16,Dex-16,Con-14,Int-10,Wis-10,Cha-10

His first stat increase is in Dexterity. All further stat increases are in Strength. At level 20:

Str-20,Dex-17,Con-14,Int-10,Wis-10,Cha-10

My Fighter takes the following feats:
Human-Improved Unarmed Strike
1-Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle)
3-Two-Weapon Fighting
6-Open Least Chakra - Arms (Magic of Incarnum)
9-Shape Soulmeld - Sphinx Claws (Magic of Incarnum)
12-Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15-Power Attack
18-Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior)

He buys a Ring of Invisibility which he uses before engaging in combat, and gets a +6 belt of strength and +4 Manual, and some other items.

When he charges, he makes six attacks, at 28/23/18/13/23/18 (taking into account his strength mod, which is now +10). He Shock Troopers (using Heedless Charge) for 20, and when he hits, he deals (I think, books aren't on me to check) 2d8 fist + 9d6 SA + 10 Strength + 20 Shock Trooper damage. Average damage is 70.5 per hit.

Against really hard enemies, he asks for Greater Invisibility from the Wizard.

Chronos
2007-12-05, 10:50 PM
His first stat increase is in Dexterity. All further stat increases are in Strength.
...
a +6 belt of strength and +4 ManualIt'd be more economical to get +3 Str and +1 Dex from your manuals, and put all of your level-up points in Str. Unless one of those feats needs 17 Dex before you can afford any manual at all?


When he charges, he makes six attacksWhich feat lets you do this?

tyckspoon
2007-12-05, 10:54 PM
It'd be more economical to get +3 Str and +1 Dex from your manuals, and put all of your level-up points in Str. Unless one of those feats needs 17 Dex before you can afford any manual at all?

Which feat lets you do this?

IIRC from similar threads in the past, the Sphinx Claws soulmeld gives some variety of Pounce.

brian c
2007-12-05, 11:13 PM
IIRC from similar threads in the past, the Sphinx Claws soulmeld gives some variety of Pounce.

And the Chakra: Arms give you extra attacks

SofS
2007-12-05, 11:46 PM
I didn't get the chance to take my last fighter to high enough levels for this trick, but I maintain that it would work in theory.

The Melee Evasion feat in PHBII lets you take an immediate action to roll a d20, add your base attack bonus, and use that as your normal and touch AC against a single attack from your Dodge target. There is nothing I can find that says that you can't use either Dodge or this feat against a ranged attacker (and really, what sense would that make anyway) despite the name.

The only reason this might be worth the time is that high-level fighters can use this as a potent defense against rays and the like. Boost your saves, get Evasion and (if you can) Mettle, and take Resolute. Spellcasters may have a slightly harder time scragging you with this combo in place.

namo
2007-12-06, 12:46 AM
The winner IMO would be the Lock build (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706) over on the wizards boards. Just replace the WF/WS chain with ubercharging feats. Somebody (Khan) did a better job with gear than the OP, btw. And Half-Ogre (RoD) is the recommended race.

Frosty
2007-12-06, 01:45 AM
I didn't get the chance to take my last fighter to high enough levels for this trick, but I maintain that it would work in theory.

The Melee Evasion feat in PHBII lets you take an immediate action to roll a d20, add your base attack bonus, and use that as your normal and touch AC against a single attack from your Dodge target. There is nothing I can find that says that you can't use either Dodge or this feat against a ranged attacker (and really, what sense would that make anyway) despite the name.

The only reason this might be worth the time is that high-level fighters can use this as a potent defense against rays and the like. Boost your saves, get Evasion and (if you can) Mettle, and take Resolute. Spellcasters may have a slightly harder time scragging you with this combo in place.

Meh...I'd still rather dip a bit into the Tome of Battle. Use Thicket of Blades or whatever that manuever is that does the same thing. it's a low level maneuver.

Armads
2007-12-06, 02:19 AM
cupkeyk: Adaptive Style requires Swordsage, Warblade or Crusader level 1st.

A Fighter...

LN Azurin Fighter 20
Feats:
Flaw (murky-eyed?): Aberration Blood
H1: Shape Soulmeld (incarnate avatar)
1: Inhuman Reach
F1: Weapon focus (guisarme)
F2: Martial Study (moment of perfect mind)
3: Power Attack
F4: Improved Bull Rush
6: Bonus Essentia
F6: Shock Trooper
F8: Weapon Specialization (guisarme)
9: Combat Reflexes
F10: Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing (or whatever damage type the guisarme is))
12: Robilar's Gambit
F12: Martial Study (crusader's strike)
F14: Martial Stance (thicket of blades)
15: Martial Study (divine surge)
F16: Mage Slayer
18: Greater Weapon Focus (guisarme)
F18: Greater Weapon Specialization (guisarme)
F20: Weapon Supremacy (guisarme)

H1 is the human bonus feat, F(something) is a fighter bonus feat, taken at that level.

Starting Stats: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
All stat boosts go to strength.

Skills of Note: Max Concentration (11 ranks at ECL 20)

Loot of note: Iron Heart Vest (Iron Heart Surge), Wings of Flying, Items of Str, Con, Dex +6, Tome of Str +5, +1 eager warning devoted spirit guisarme (more enhancements if necessary), Tome of Dex +1, tunic of steady spellcasting, blindfold of true darkness (or 10 +1 blindsighted crossbow bolts, if you're feeling cheesy), belt of battle.

End Results:
Standard Ubercharger fare, with Robilar's Gambit thrown on top of it, as well as a +6 to hit and +6 damage from feats. He has 20 ft reach, Thicket of Blades, Stand Still, and the ability to take 6 AoOs per round. If he cannot close on his opponent and full attack on round 1, he can move over and deliver a Divine Surge for +8d8 damage, or heal his allies with Crusader's Strike. He avoids Will-or-dies with Moment of Perfect Mind, reflex-crippling spells like Web with Iron Heart Surge, and uses his good fortitude save to avoid Fort-or-dies. If he fails a save against Save-or-sucks like Slow or Glitterdust, Iron Heart Surge can rectify the situation. He has Mage Slayer to take out the casters if he ever closes into melee range. He also has a huge initiative mod of +14.

Yrnes
2007-12-06, 02:21 AM
If I might suggest the Blindfold of True Darkness from the MIC; 60' blindsight for the low, low price of 9,000 gp; also immmunity to gaze attacks etc since it's a blindfold.

Not much else to contribute but I thought I'd throw that out there.

I'm wearing one of these in our current game and it is sweet, but allow me to point out some of it's drawbacks.

-The blindsight is only a 30' ft range, which isn't a huge deal if not for
-The blindfold does not allow any use of vision other than the blindsight.

So, if somethings out of range, you cannot target it with your bow/spear whatever it is you need to throw. Additionally, creatures that are ethereal don't register on blindsight (since they are other-planar) meaning you would need the benefit of a see invisibility spell to attack them (assuming you have a ghost touch weapon to begin with), which you cannot use with the blindfold on.

SofS
2007-12-06, 02:40 AM
Frosty: Does that maneuver work for touch AC? If so, I concede the point, though Melee Evasion can do some other neat things when applied to feats that rely on Dodge and maybe a Belt of Battle.

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-06, 02:53 AM
The Warhulk-knockback build would be fun, but it's a little outside the purview of the challenge.

If I have to go pure fighter, I favor Caelic's Jack B. Quick build:

1. TWF, Dodge, WF (Longsword)
2. Combat Expertise
3. Improved Trip
4. WF (Handaxe)
5.
6. Improved TWF, High Sword Low Axe
7.
8. Combat Reflexes
9. Karmic Strike
10. Double Hit
11.
12. Robilar's Gambit, Mobility
13.
14. Elusive Target
15. Power Attack
16. Overpowering Attack
17.
18. Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw
19.
20. Sidestep

It gives you a sword-axe-trip-sword combo with every swing, and once you hit 9+, lets you return melee hits with the same combo or even more hits. It's not optimized in the same way the charger or chain tripper is, but it sees less play, which in my opinion makes it more fun to trot out for a few games (almost any pure fighter in an entire campaign can get pretty dull).

One problem is that it's a bit MAD, since you need high dex as well as decent str and con for this guy. The other downside is that it's a straightforward melee build without pounce, so your equipment would have to be focused on ways to get to an opponent who might be flying or invisible or whatever.

If you wanted a little variety, you could remove Imp Unarmed and Defensive Throw and replace them with... I don't know... Aberrant Reach, or mounted feats, or archery, or whatever.

Indon
2007-12-06, 10:26 AM
And the Chakra: Arms give you extra attacks

No, he just TWF's (Which is why he has 17 Dex; I didn't really bother with cash efficiency with his items because I didn't calculate them all). The Open Least Chakra feat is required for the soulmeld to give him pounce. There's a different soulmeld he could take that would give him more attacks (in the form of extra arms) but it occupies the same chakra slot as the sphinx claws if I recall.

Edit: Optionally, my fighter could also stand to have +5 gauntlets. I dunno if they'd work with his Superior Unarmed Strike, though, as it doesn't function exactly like the Monk's ability.

Frosty
2007-12-06, 05:23 PM
Frosty: Does that maneuver work for touch AC? If so, I concede the point, though Melee Evasion can do some other neat things when applied to feats that rely on Dodge and maybe a Belt of Battle.

Yes I believe it does. I just don't like the Dodge feat becuase it sucks so much.

Armads
2007-12-07, 03:34 AM
The Warhulk-knockback build would be fun, but it's a little outside the purview of the challenge.

If I have to go pure fighter, I favor Caelic's Jack B. Quick build:

1. TWF, Dodge, WF (Longsword)
2. Combat Expertise
3. Improved Trip
4. WF (Handaxe)
5.
6. Improved TWF, High Sword Low Axe
7.
8. Combat Reflexes
9. Karmic Strike
10. Double Hit
11.
12. Robilar's Gambit, Mobility
13.
14. Elusive Target
15. Power Attack
16. Overpowering Attack
17.
18. Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw
19.
20. Sidestep

It gives you a sword-axe-trip-sword combo with every swing, and once you hit 9+, lets you return melee hits with the same combo or even more hits. It's not optimized in the same way the charger or chain tripper is, but it sees less play, which in my opinion makes it more fun to trot out for a few games (almost any pure fighter in an entire campaign can get pretty dull).

One problem is that it's a bit MAD, since you need high dex as well as decent str and con for this guy. The other downside is that it's a straightforward melee build without pounce, so your equipment would have to be focused on ways to get to an opponent who might be flying or invisible or whatever.

If you wanted a little variety, you could remove Imp Unarmed and Defensive Throw and replace them with... I don't know... Aberrant Reach, or mounted feats, or archery, or whatever.

I don't think Karmic Strike works with Robilar's Gambit anymore. Something about not being able to take more than attack for each opportunity.

Chronicled
2007-12-07, 04:21 AM
I don't think Karmic Strike works with Robilar's Gambit anymore. Something about not being able to take more than attack for each opportunity.

Dragon Magazine 340 (page 87), has a feat called Two-Weapon Attack of Opportunity, which lets you make an AoO with each of your weapons, using 2 AoO attempts to do so. (Alternatively, it's on page 36 of the CrystalKeep feat index.)

Yes, it's easily abusable, but since it's from Dragon Magazine, I doubt most DMs would have a second thought about banning it.

Draz74
2007-12-07, 04:37 AM
Dragon Magazine 340 (page 87), has a feat called Two-Weapon Attack of Opportunity, which lets you make an AoO with each of your weapons, using 2 AoO attempts to do so. (Alternatively, it's on page 36 of the CrystalKeep feat index.)

Yes, it's easily abusable, but since it's from Dragon Magazine, I doubt most DMs would have a second thought about banning it.

Meh ... I wouldn't ban it. I might toughen its prereqs, if anything.

Armads
2007-12-07, 04:45 AM
Dragon Magazine 340 (page 87), has a feat called Two-Weapon Attack of Opportunity, which lets you make an AoO with each of your weapons, using 2 AoO attempts to do so. (Alternatively, it's on page 36 of the CrystalKeep feat index.)

Yes, it's easily abusable, but since it's from Dragon Magazine, I doubt most DMs would have a second thought about banning it.

Double Hit does the same thing, but uses only 1 AoO per round, and has a prereq of TWF and ITWF.

I meant that using Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit was making 2 attacks for an opportunity. The relevant SRD rule is:


Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Emphasis mine. Therefore, you cannot make more than one attack for the opportunity given to you by Karmic Strike or/and Robilar's Gambit, because the enemy attacking you is 1 opportunity.

Huduvudu
2007-12-08, 01:08 PM
Overpowering Attack (PHBII)

I think you mean Overwhelming Assault, maybe?

Also, a slightly weaker alternative to the Knockback feat from the Mini handbook allows Medium and smaller sized creatures a somewhat similar ability.

Pushback has the same feat prerequisites as Knockback (with a STR requirement instead of large size), and once per round after hitting an opponent of up to your size you get a free special bull rush attempt. If it succeeds they move back 5' and you move into the space they occupied, and neither action provokes an AoO.

I'm not sure whether you can utilize the Momentum Swing and Advancing blows maneuvers of the Combat Brute feat at the same time, but combining those and Pushback to force the enemy into a wall again after a charging bull rush sounds like it'd be pretty devastating.

Edit: Okay, Knockback wins by far. Moving beyond 5' and also an attempt for every power attack is pretty ebil. Pushback might work as an inferior substitute for those who don't want to try to convince their DMs to let them play a Large or Powerful Build character (my DM uses his own setting, so Core/SRD races are pretty much all that's available).

JaxGaret
2007-12-08, 01:20 PM
I would think that the best Fighter20 would have Skill Knowledge (UMD) and max ranks in UMD. Possibly some other UMD-related feats as well.