Superman vs. Super saiyan

[Eerie]

Let`s stop beating Sauron for a while.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Superman.jpg/250px-Superman.jpg vs. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3b/Super_Saiyan_Gokudbz.JPG/200px-Super_Saiyan_Gokudbz.JPG

Since there are different versions of Superman, we will take the most powerful.

[Selrahc]

Hmmm... Current Superman would lose hard. But in the days when he was most preposterous, this could actually be a real fight.

I've seen him lift up 100 trillion tonne weights in each hand, and make a cheesy comment along the lines of "phew, this is heavy even for me".

And he does stuff like time travel, and pushing around planets.

Super Saiyans though, casually explode planets, and tank blasts capable of doing the same with ease.

[Jayngfet]

they did somthing like this, goku went 1st level ss and one punched him

[factotum]

I'd have to agree with Selrahc--even a normal Saiyan is powerful enough to destroy a planet (Vegeta did it on the way to Earth, long before he learned how to go Super), which puts them orders of magnitude beyond Superman.

[....]

Yeah, Goku wins.

Superman should win... but no one beats the power creep of Dragonball.

[Arakune]

Maybe this visual aid can help:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/AngstromZero/superman_vs_goku.jpg

[Mr. Mud]

Okay How 'bout Superman (best DC ever had him looking) vs. SS4 Goku, or even Vegeta?

I still give this to The Super Sayian, but its a heck of a lot closer...

[Eerie]

Maybe this visual aid can help:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/AngstromZero/superman_vs_goku.jpg


This made me LOL.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Super Saiyans though, casually explode planets, and tank blasts capable of doing the same with ease.

Tanks are capable of easily destroying planets?


I'd have to agree with Selrahc--even a normal Saiyan is powerful enough to destroy a planet (Vegeta did it on the way to Earth, long before he learned how to go Super), which puts them orders of magnitude beyond Superman.

I know next to nothing about the DBZ universe, and I'm not a huge fan of DC so I don't know the upper limits of Superman's abilities, but I think people aren't giving Supes enough credit. Sure, Saiyans can easily destroy a planet, but I'm betting so can Silver Age Superman. We've just never seen him do it, since Superman wouldn't do such a thing. Don't forget, Superman has gone toe-to-toe with gods.

[Closet_Skeleton]

We've just never seen him do it, since Superman wouldn't do such a thing.

Niether would Goku.

Goku also fights gods easily. Then moves onto aliens who are somehow stronger. :confused:

[Mr. Mud]

Niether would Goku.

Goku also fights gods easily. Then moves onto aliens who are somehow stronger.

Isn't Superman an Alien? :smalltongue:

--On a completly unrelated note, Nice Avatar Rare Pink Leech :smallbiggrin:

[Jerthanis]

It depends on whether Saiyans can survive in space or not.

At various points in the series we see Goku putting on protective gear before going into space, and when Frieza blows up Namek, Goku treats this as something which will kill him regardless of his strength. It seems like this would indicate Goku needs to breathe and/or can't survive the void itself. But in one of the movies there were Saiyans flying around in space with no protection without harm. It's a mystery.

By all rights, Goku would win, but if I were writing it, Goku would come to town, He'd start messing stuff up, Superman would come in to stop him, they'd have a brutal battle where each gave as good as he got with Goku having the clear upper hand. Eventually Superman would realize there's no way he can win in a straight fight, and if pushed to it under desperate duress, Superman would tackle Goku into the upper stratosphere and hold his breath, so that the fight is taken out of Goku that way. Then he'd go to Batman, who would manipulate Goku's phobia of needles somehow to get him to stay put... or something.

[Indon]

Silver Age superman would use Super-hypnosis to put Goku to sleep.

Superman wins.

Edit: Because Silver Age Superman is a walking Deus Ex Machina. Super-hypnosis is one of his powers. It even functions through cameras and pictures, somehow. This is why people don't see through Kent's ridiculously bad disguise.

[Blue Paladin]

Thanks Indon. For a second I thought I was the only one aware of the idiotic power level of Silver Age Superman.

Since Eerie specifically said the most powerful version of Superman is available, that's it. Game Over. Everything else (even Gokuu) loses.

For you young uns who don't understand, try this. FACT: Silver Age Superman beats Chuck Norris.

[kpenguin]

I think Wizards ran a Superman vs. Goku battle once, with Goku coming out as the winner.

[Setra]

It depends on whether Saiyans can survive in space or not.
Doesn't matter, Goku can instantaneously move to another habitable planet.
Tanks are capable of easily destroying planets?
WhileI originally thought the same and went 'Huh?'. He meant the DBZ characters can Tank the blasts.

As in the MMORPG definition, the Tank is the one who soaks up damage.

[Jerthanis]

Doesn't matter, Goku can instantaneously move to another habitable planet.

Okay, that's true. Goku can probably take Superman, but Supes might still stand a chance against other Supersaiyans without the Instant transmission technique. If I were writing the comic, that's still the way I'd write it though.



WhileI originally thought the same and went 'Huh?'. He meant the DBZ characters can Tank the blasts.

As in the MMORPG definition, the Tank is the one who soaks up damage.

To be fair, D&D groups were calling anyone in Full Plate a "Tank" years before MMOs existed. Or at least mine did.

[kpenguin]

For you young uns who don't understand, try this. FACT: Silver Age Superman beats Chuck Norris.

My god... Supes wins.

[Arakune]

It depends on whether Saiyans can survive in space or not.

At various points in the series we see Goku putting on protective gear before going into space, and when Frieza blows up Namek, Goku treats this as something which will kill him regardless of his strength. It seems like this would indicate Goku needs to breathe and/or can't survive the void itself. But in one of the movies there were Saiyans flying around in space with no protection without harm. It's a mystery.

By all rights, Goku would win, but if I were writing it, Goku would come to town, He'd start messing stuff up, Superman would come in to stop him, they'd have a brutal battle where each gave as good as he got with Goku having the clear upper hand. Eventually Superman would realize there's no way he can win in a straight fight, and if pushed to it under desperate duress, Superman would tackle Goku into the upper stratosphere and hold his breath, so that the fight is taken out of Goku that way. Then he'd go to Batman, who would manipulate Goku's phobia of needles somehow to get him to stay put... or something.

Not quite, for that their flying capacity should be inferior to super but it is at least equal to then, and their strength must be somewhat inferior to him for then to be grappled and didn't scape, remember that the Z warriors are martial artist of highest level and super didn't show too much martial combat ability (at least not in some comics, movies, cartoon, etc) except punch very hard.

The problem with super? The writers give him too much power without too much thought, were Toriyama make the Z warriors power scale (shame he was forced to continue after Freeza arc) quite reasonably, but still somewhat ridiculous.

But want to win over super?

RP: "Hey Goku, that kriptonian baddie are comming to destroy earth!"
Goku: "Oh, then I must train harder!"
RP: "Well, actually, can you fight with him somewhere else? Like, two or three solar systems away?"
Goku: "Ahm.. sure, why not? Maybe Kaioh-sama know somewhere where we are not annoy anyone."
RP: "Yeah, and if he proves to be too much strong, try to go to somewhere with a red sun."
Goku: "Why?"
RP: "No reason."

Goku wins.

[....]

Goku would kill Superman, and as he stood all battle damaged and panting over Supe's broken corpse, he'd suddenly fall over dead to reveal Batman with some rare form of super-deadly toxin that only effects saijans.

[Indon]

For you young uns who don't understand, try this. FACT: Silver Age Superman beats Chuck Norris.

He beats Batman, too.

Superman has so many powers during the Silver Age that he makes Adam West's Bat-shark-repellent Batman look like an unprepared thug.

I believe the Superdickery site details the ridiculousness of some of his powers.

[ocato]

Personally, I'm not a big DBZ fan at all, so I am biased towards Superman. Particularly because the strength of superman is greatly questionable. He has been known to go off on mini-rants about how he always has to restrain his full power in fear of hurting innocent bystanders, and then punch people through the moon or something. Superman also once told someone something along the lines of "quite being a jerk or I'll destroy this planet, fly to a new one, and be their hero instead."

There is also the time Superman refracted his eye laser through a man's contact lens and gave him a lobotomy without melting the man's eye or brain. DC is very strange at times.

I've seen DBZ from Goku training with the catfish man up through the death of Freiza, and based on that, Superman would probably defeat Goku handily. Now, I understand that after that, the series turns into a crazy one-ups-manship fest of people becoming super-duper level omega saiyans and growing extra arms and I think one guy wrestles Thor and steals his lunch money or something, but I think that the fact that superman can technically reverse the rotation of the earth back to when Goku was a baby and then smash his skull works as a sufficient trump card.

Also, as mentioned, the fact that Goku arguably cannot survive in space, or is significantly weaker in space perhaps, and is therefore candidate to being thrown into the sun by a Superman that gets stronger and harder to escape as they get closer to it.

Of course, the argument could quickly degrade into who has better friends, because in all realism, Goku and Superman both have people they can call on. Goku has a significant advantage in the quality of his friends, but Superman can arguably out-man Goku ten fold. I saw a commercial for Justice League Unlimited, and I swear there must have been 100 guys on the screen. Granted, Gohan and Piccolo could turn Green Arrow and the Flash into pinatas, so its a question of quality vs quantity. Of course, this is not really a part of the main question and is probably ignorable.

In short, the winner is Batman.

[lipe44]

Common, you are all being unfair... How come Superman would last seconds against a Goku ssj4?

[Blue Paladin]

Common, you are all being unfair... How come Superman would last seconds against a Goku ssj4?Because the OP specifically called for the strongest iteration of Superman.

There's a reason every serious vs. thread involving Superman excludes the Pre-Crisis version; otherwise, there's no contest. For those of you talking about the power creep of Dragon Ball, believe me. I know it. I watched it from Pilaf to Piccolo to Vegeta to Cell to Buu. Every episode, as it aired on the International Channel. I only sporadically caught episodes of GT, but I did watch fused-#17 and most of the Star-Dragon arc, and all the episodes with the One-Star-Dragon. I know exactly how uber Gokuu is.

It's not enough.

SSJ4 Gokuu fused with SSJ4 Vegeta is not strong enough to hurt Silver Age Superman. WWH Hulk fused with Sentry is not strong enough to hurt Silver Age Superman. Chuck Norris fused with Vin Diesel is not strong enough to hurt Silver Age Superman.

All other versions of Superman fused together might (emphasis on might) be able to match Silver Age Superman in terms of sheer strength (mostly due to the contribution of Superfriends Superman), but they lose to Silver Age Superman's Super-[insert any power here]. He is the embodiment of distilled, instant win.

[konfeta]

And that's an understatement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman#Silver.2FBronze_A ge_.28Pre-Crisis.29_Superman

Read this...

"He was immune to basically everything except for Kryptonite radiation and magic." - Or immune to anything that isn't a plot device.


"Superman's speed increased to the point where he could travel faster than light." - Alright, Sayians blow up planets. This guy blows up PHYSICS. I don't know how much energy SSWhatever Sayians can output, but I'd saying Superman being able to push planets combined with this would mean he has Matter Conversion bombs the size of, well, planets. And trust me, that's a *lot* more energy then any DBZ character ever put out.

"Writers of Superman experimented with new powers for the character. The abilities that proved popular became part of his regular repertoire, while others were discarded after a single use. In addition to his other super senses, Superman was occasionally shown as having highly-enhanced senses of touch and smell. " - Oh, and if the above list isn't enough, (Plot Invulnerability, Reliable Bending of Laws of Physics) he can gain any ability deemed neccessary to win any engagement.


Simply put, Silver Age Superman is Pun-Pun of DC comics.

[Darken Rahl]

Decently drawn, creatively conceived superhero vs. ****ty anime with LOTS OF MOTION BARS FLASHING AND TWO FRAMES OF ANIMATION FOR SPEECH ZOMG!!!


Good God I hate all things Dragonball.

[Mr.Moron]

Decently drawn, creatively conceived superhero vs. ****ty anime with LOTS OF MOTION BARS FLASHING AND TWO FRAMES OF ANIMATION FOR SPEECH ZOMG!!!


Good God I hate all things Dragonball.

Oh come on, it isn't as serious as all that. I know some people have their preferences really, but this is silly. You have to keep in mind that we're basically talking about a fight between a man in blue and red underwear, and screaming monkey-guy with shiny hair. I really don't think there is too much room feeling righteous on either side of the argument. Which isn't to say I can't appreciate monkey guys or people in underwear.

That said, I'm not sure. Superman's raw power is usually depicted as less, but he has also died fewer times. If you forced my hand, I'd say the golden monkey... but it isn't a sure bet.

[Arakune]

Simply put, Silver Age Superman is Pun-Pun of DC comics.

More exactly, pun-pun ability to have any powers in the game and the onmiscifer ability to have infinity (not limitless, not NI, true infinity in 0 time) combined together.

[konfeta]

And SA Supe getting any abilities his writers desire to give him emulates that. I guess you can call him Pun-Pun with some... Restraint?

[Darken Rahl]

Oh come on, it isn't as serious as all that. I know some people have their preferences really, but this is silly. You have to keep in mind that we're basically talking about a fight between a man in blue and red underwear, and screaming monkey-guy with shiny hair. I really don't think there is too much room feeling righteous on either side of the argument. Which isn't to say I can't appreciate monkey guys or people in underwear.

That said, I'm not sure. Superman's raw power is usually depicted as less, but he has also died fewer times. If you forced my hand, I'd say the golden monkey... but it isn't a sure bet.

I apologize. It isn't that I'm a Superman fan, I just REALLY hate DBZ. A lot. I really do not understand why it has a following at all.

[lipe44]

Blue Paladin

I Know a lot about Superman, i watched and read almost all things about him, about his different powers in different movies, books or whatever. I just say there is NO way to him win a fight against saiyan, common, the power level is completely different. Goku can teleport to any point of the universe instantly, their powers are more than enough to distort the dimensions.

Superman wont just be defeated, he will dissapear from existance leaving nothing.

[Indon]

Blue Paladin

I Know a lot about Superman, i watched and read almost all things about him, about his different powers in different movies, books or whatever. I just say there is NO way to him win a fight against saiyan, common, the power level is completely different. Goku can teleport to any point of the universe instantly, their powers are more than enough to distort the dimensions.

Superman wont just be defeated, he will dissapear from existance leaving nothing.

Unless you read comics during, I think the 50's and 60's, and are familiar with that incarnation of Superman, then you are not familiar with the Superman who is in this fight.

[lipe44]

Unless you read comics during, I think the 50's and 60's, and are familiar with that incarnation of Superman, then you are not familiar with the Superman who is in this fight.

Hum... I dont remenber reading but i do remenber seing somewhere saying a lot about that superman, ill give a look. If im not wrong he still vulnerable to kriptonite and magic so it doesnt change a lot.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Wait.

I thought Goku was just a Japanese version of Superman in the first place?

"Infant child from a doomed planet is sent to Earth where he is adopted by a kind local. He gains superpowers from his environs (Earth's sun or Earth's moon, either way) and becomes a super-powered badass with the brains of a tackhammer." Okay, the last part isn't fair to post-Silver Age Superman, and Goku gets most of his super-powers directly from his alien heritage and training, but the similarities are there.

[lipe44]

Wait.

I thought Goku was just a Japanese version of Superman in the first place?

"Infant child from a doomed planet is sent to Earth where he is adopted by a kind local. He gains superpowers from his environs (Earth's sun or Earth's moon, either way) and becomes a super-powered badass with the brains of a tackhammer." Okay, the last part isn't fair to post-Silver Age Superman, and Goku gets most of his super-powers directly from his alien heritage and training, but the similarities are there.

Not really, he wasnt sent because the planet was doomed, he was sent to destroy Earth...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Details...

[factotum]

Well, the whole thing about him being an alien sent to Earth is largely a massive retcon in Dragonball Z anyway--in the original Dragonball he was more akin to the Monkey King from "Journey to the West".

[Setra]

Superman is about the speed of light

But Goku can move INSTANTANIOUSLY, from point A in the Universe, to point B.

HE is FASTER than light.

[Darken Rahl]

That isn't speed at all. Moving instantaneously from A to B would equal a speed of (undefined).

S=d/t

S=1,000Miles/0

S=(undefined)

[lipe44]

That isn't speed at all. Moving instantaneously from A to B would equal a speed of (undefined).

S=d/t

S=1,000Miles/0

S=(undefined)

So its speedless? Wow that sound incredibly funny...

[Dervag]

Blue Paladin

I Know a lot about Superman, i watched and read almost all things about him, about his different powers in different movies, books or whatever. I just say there is NO way to him win a fight against saiyan, common, the power level is completely different. Goku can teleport to any point of the universe instantly, their powers are more than enough to distort the dimensions.

Superman wont just be defeated, he will dissapear from existance leaving nothing.Funny. Goku never managed to defeat other non-teleporting enemies in that way (such as Cel).


That isn't speed at all. Moving instantaneously from A to B would equal a speed of (undefined).

S=d/t

S=1,000Miles/0

S=(undefined)Which happens to be, de facto, faster than light. Which of course means that Goku can return to his starting point on a round trip voyage before he left in certain frames of reference, which means he must be a very confused person, the poor soul.

Of course, Superman has had a number of adventures which strongly suggest that he can travel faster than light, simply because they had him travelling between a variety of different planets using (by all appearances) only his own innate flying abilities.

I'm not sure instant transmission abilities will help Goku much in and of themselves. They would allow him to flee if he were losing, certainly, but I'm not sure they'd help him to overcome Superman in direct combat.

[lipe44]

Funny. Goku never managed to defeat other non-teleporting enemies in that way (such as Cel).

Its Cell... And later Cell could also teleport. And what do you mean defeat people using teleportation, how that would be fun?


Of course, Superman has had a number of adventures which strongly suggest that he can travel faster than light, simply because they had him travelling between a variety of different planets using (by all appearances) only his own innate flying abilities.

Wait... Thats all, if it doesnt tell he can fly faster than light then he cant.


I'm not sure instant transmission abilities will help Goku much in and of themselves. They would allow him to flee if he were losing, certainly, but I'm not sure they'd help him to overcome Superman in direct combat.

Just defeat the point of some people as Superman locking him away or such.

[Blue Paladin]

Singling out Superman's reaction to kryptonite/magic is the same thing as singling out Gokuu's reaction to grabbing his tail/magic. It's meaningless in the versus context. Gokuu doesn't understand that shiny green rock hurts Superman; Superman doesn't know that grabbing the tail weakens Gokuu. Neither one knows any appreciable magic (although Superman does in fact know some arcane lore).

re: Shunkan Idou. Gokuu can teleport to a person whose ki he can sense. I have no idea if they made that clear in the English dub, so I'll excuse the lapse if you didn't realize that. It's why he teleported to Kaiou's planet with Cell; he had to lock on to Kaiou's ki first. If he could truly teleport anywhere, he could have sacrificed only himself and dragged Cell straight into the sun.

And to cover all the bases, it is true that Kibit had a better teleport, with no ki lock requirement but there is never any indication that Gokuu learns it (although Evil Buu apparently learns it). Every time Gokuu teleports, he uses the "standard" two fingers to the forehead version.

Setra: I believe the Modern Age Superman tops out at significantly less than the speed of light. He is considerably slower than the Flash, who routinely jogs at lightspeed.

However, we're not talking about Modern Age Superman. Silver Age Superman easily flies faster than light. He cruises to the center of the universe in a few hours, fast as any teleporting Green Lantern, and he's not even pushing himself.

Here's a random example of the absurd breadth of Silver Age Superman's power.

He pushes planets around with ease, rearranging a barren star system into an approximation of the solar system. Never mind the mind-boggling logistics of calculating proper stable orbits, because this next bit is even better. He proceeds to plow the dead planet, and grows crops on it. Out of nowhere. Seeds? Irrigation? Whatever. I use my Super-Farming power, and create life. Because he's Superman.

[Catch]

Superman doesn't know that grabbing the tail weakens Gokuu.

You underestimate the ridiculousness of Silver Age Superman. He has the power of the "super-hunch." (http://www.superdickery.com/stupor/14.html)

And then there's the whole faster-than-light, flying-through-stars crap too.

[Rutee]

...Pre Crisis Superman? Oh ho, that /is/ a fight. I'm inclined to give it to Superman... blowing up planets is impressive, but Superman re-ignites Stars, which takes orders of magnitude more energy. Assuming, yes, he doesn't spontaneously generate some new and unheard of Super-power that automatically trumps Gokuu.

But I'm open to hearing some of Gokuu's equally ludicrous feats; I quit paying attention long before DBZ power creep could reach Pre-Crisis Superman.

[lipe44]

Wait you say that Goku knows no magic, what the hell is Kamehameha then?

You know claiming something and not posting nothing confirming it is kinda idiot.

The powers in DBZ are enough to affect dimensions. About speed i remenber Pan while had like 6 years could travel around the world in a few seconds.

About space, Vegeta is show outside a ship in space while sending an attack to destroy a planet. So i kinda believe they dont need to breath.

[Rutee]

Wait you say that Goku knows no magic, what the hell is Kamehameha then?
A chi technique.

[lipe44]

A chi technique.

I see, so what exactly is chi? Magic...

[Arakune]

What about modern age superman and ss1 goku pos freeza and pre cell?

[Rutee]

I see, so what exactly is chi? Magic...

Wrong. Chi is essentially the body's vital energy. A Chi Technique is essentially manipulation of that vital energy. Magic is generally manipulating or creating an outside source. I wouldn't really consider what Goku does magic, at all, though it's certainly extraordinary and impossible for a normal mortal.

Mind, I think I see where you're coming from, but it isn't magic, even within its own setting. Babidi does magic. What Roshi's sister, with the crystal ball, does is magic. Goku uses the martial arts.

[lipe44]

Wrong. Chi is essentially the body's vital energy. A Chi Technique is essentially manipulation of that vital energy. Magic is generally manipulating or creating an outside source. I wouldn't really consider what Goku does magic, at all, though it's certainly extraordinary and impossible for a normal mortal.

Mind, I think I see where you're coming from, but it isn't magic, even within its own setting. Babidi does magic. What Roshi's sister, with the crystal ball, does is magic. Goku uses the martial arts.

Yeah but magic isnt just that. So would it hurt superman? It does destroy a planet...

[Nerd-o-rama]

You know, it doesn't have to be magic or kryptonite to hurt Supes. Didn't Doomsday or whomever essentially just beat him to death? All it takes is near-equivalent superstrength. The same has also defeated Goku, although it was usually a pyrrhic victory for his opponent (i.e. they were also dead).

[averagejoe]

Yeah but magic isnt just that. So would it hurt superman? It does destroy a planet...

Supes has flown through stars. That would completely anihilate any planet.

Seriously, Silver Age Superman is rediculous. One could probably make an argument that, in such a battle, Supes would just use his "super vision" to see Goku focusing his ki (nevermind logic-that never mattered to the Silver Age writers) and then use his hitherto unknown "super ki-focusing" abilities to do the same thing but better.

Or, failing that, use the fact that he can't be hurt by anything except kryptonite and magic (but still has a healing factor! :smalleek: ) and combine it with the fact that he never needs to eat, sleep, or breathe, and even if he doesn't land any punches, Goku would probably wear out before he scratched Supes much.

[lipe44]

Supes has flown through stars. That would completely anihilate any planet.

Seriously, Silver Age Superman is rediculous. One could probably make an argument that, in such a battle, Supes would just use his "super vision" to see Goku focusing his ki (nevermind logic-that never mattered to the Silver Age writers) and then use his hitherto unknown "super ki-focusing" abilities to do the same thing but better.

Or, failing that, use the fact that he can't be hurt by anything except kryptonite and magic (but still has a healing factor! :smalleek: ) and combine it with the fact that he never needs to eat, sleep, or breathe, and even if he doesn't land any punches, Goku would probably wear out before he scratched Supes much.

1- He entered into the star then left the other side?

2- Now we are starting to logicless like those writers....

3- Goku is extremely strong, he would probably reduce Superman to a lot of unconnect members.

When in his history he faced Chi abilities and didnt get hurt? None? When taking characters from different universes you cant use things like that because the other person abilities are from another universe.

[Catch]

You know, it doesn't have to be magic or kryptonite to hurt Supes. Didn't Doomsday or whomever essentially just beat him to death? All it takes is near-equivalent superstrength. The same has also defeated Goku, although it was usually a pyrrhic victory for his opponent (i.e. they were also dead).

Yes, Doomsday did beat Superman to a pulp, but that was in the '90's. We're talking about Silver Age Superman here.

Here's the reason why it "has" to be kryptonite or magic, at least in terms of the SA Man o' Steel.

Taken from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman#Silver.2FBronze_A ge_.28Pre-Crisis.29_Superman): "By the 1970's, Superman has a bio-electric aura that protects him from physical injury, he was able to withstand the explosion of nuclear weapons and fly unharmed through the core of a star. He was immune to basically everything except for Kryptonite radiation and magic."

[lipe44]

Yes, Doomsday did beat Superman to a pulp, but that was in the '90's. We're talking about Silver Age Superman here.

Here's the reason why it "has" to be kryptonite or magic, at least in terms of the SA Man o' Steel.

Taken from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman#Silver.2FBronze_A ge_.28Pre-Crisis.29_Superman): "By the 1970's, Superman has a bio-electric aura that protects him from physical injury, he was able to withstand the explosion of nuclear weapons and fly unharmed through the core of a star. He was immune to basically everything except for Kryptonite radiation and magic."

Thank you for the page. Its the first time a extremely good point falls into my front.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman#Silver.2FBronze_A ge_.28Pre-Crisis.29_Superman) "Superman's powers were negated if he entered an environment similar to that of Krypton, such as the bottle city of Kandor, or if he was exposed to the solar energy of a red sun."

You know guys, you talk a lot about his powers but not about his highest weakness?

[averagejoe]

Thank you for the page. Its the first time a extremely good point falls into my front.

Someone mentioned it last page. That's where basically all the pro-superman arguments have been coming from.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, Kryptonite's a lot more accessible than Red stars. I'd consider that his greatest weakness.

(By the way, fun crossover? Superman vs. The Absorbing Man (Marvel) and a chunk of Kryptonite. Many lulz ensue.)

[lipe44]

Someone mentioned it last page. That's where basically all the pro-superman arguments have been coming from.

It was one about him in general but didnt said a lot about his powers.


Well, Kryptonite's a lot more accessible than Red stars. I'd consider that his greatest weakness.

(By the way, fun crossover? Superman vs. The Absorbing Man (Marvel) and a chunk of Kryptonite. Many lulz ensue.)

Yeah but Goku doesnt know that while i can totally picturing Goku using kamehameha at a Star to hit Superman.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Might take a while. Even for a guy who can teleport and shoot laser beams made out of his own fighting spirit, moving a star requires a lot of work.

Now, it's possible Silver Age Superman is dumb enough to follow Goku to a Red star system...

[lipe44]

Might take a while. Even for a guy who can teleport and shoot laser beams made out of his own fighting spirit, moving a star requires a lot of work.

Now, it's possible Silver Age Superman is dumb enough to follow Goku to a Red star system...

I do think a kamehameha would make it go very fast...

Hey that just made me think about Goku getting hungry in the middle of the fight and leave to find somewhere to eat, find a Red star system and start to eat there, Superman stays close enough to look at Goku but far enough to not get affected. He thinks "Ill wait until him ends eating that he will probably come back", off course then Superman dies of old age(yes i know he is immortal but you already saw how much Goku can eat?)

[hyperfreak497]

Now, it's possible Silver Age Superman is dumb enough to follow Goku to a Red star system...

Nope. Almost-omniscience and "super-hunch" (Catch linked it farther up the page). There's no way he's going anywhere near a red star system.


I do think a kamehameha would make it go very fast...

Can a blast of force like kamehameha move something, especially something semi-liquid like a star? 'Member, we're talking about moving a star, not destroying a planet.

[lipe44]

Nope. Almost-omniscience and "super-hunch" (Catch linked it farther up the page). There's no way he's going anywhere near a red star system.

It doesnt mean Goku cant go to a red star system(Especially if it has a "all you can eat" restaurant) and annoy Superman from there until he comes, you know Goku is great at annoying people.

And, what is considered near to a red star system? Because basically anywhere in the universe will have a minimum of red star radiation because travels very, very, VERY far.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I do think a kamehameha would make it go very fast...
Are you aware of the mass that he'd have to move? Even for DBZ, that's ludicrous.

More likely, he could use a kamehameha to pool-cue supes in the direction of a red star, rather than vice versa. Superman is only marginally immune to inertia, and he can be hit. Just not damaged, really.

[lipe44]

Are you aware of the mass that he'd have to move? Even for DBZ, that's ludicrous.

More likely, he could use a kamehameha to pool-cue supes in the direction of a red star, rather than vice versa. Superman is only marginally immune to inertia, and he can be hit. Just not damaged, really.

But that wouldnt look as cool.

Hum... He did that with several guys...

[Arakune]

Man, silver age superman wins because he are the second most broken character in DC (the first one is Lobo, really, he don't have any real motive to be that badass but he can put a good fight to superman! Come on! :smallmad: Tough anyone that can hurt that super-bastard are my hero :smallbiggrin: ), where Goku are at least well written. Up to Freeza arc, after that it becomes ridiculous.

[konfeta]

Is this Silver Age Superman? Because if he is, I believe all our arguments for Supe winning were just nulled and voided.

http://www.superdickery.com/stupor/2.html

[ocato]

Superman is pretty much a superhuman boy scout. If goku went to some red star planet, superman would shrug and go back to his job and life feeling that he has adequately prevented whatever problem he originally thought Goku posed.

Oh, another reason I feel Goku would lose: Goku would stay flying there talking or grunting or energy flexing (or whatever that crap is supposed to be) while everyone who is present goes "ohmigodhessostrongaaaayii!" in typical anime fashion. Meanwhile, Batman would come up with some sort of ingenius subsonic ki blocking emiter that would make Goku powerless. He'd then implant a kryptonite batarang in the back of Supes' head, then go to Metropolis and plow Lois Lane.

So, once again, the winner is Batman.

[lipe44]

How come you can block vital energy? Its just... stupid...


Man, silver age superman wins because he are the second most broken character in DC (the first one is Lobo, really, he don't have any real motive to be that badass but he can put a good fight to superman! Come on! :smallmad: Tough anyone that can hurt that super-bastard are my hero :smallbiggrin: ), where Goku are at least well written. Up to Freeza arc, after that it becomes ridiculous.

The only part i dont like much is in DBGT, all that universe travelling too boring only when gets to Bebi it gets better.

[ocato]

How come you can block vital energy? Its just... stupid...

We are discussing cartoons. Mildly illogical actions are a given. For example, why do the saiyans attain godlike speed and agility by doing push ups? I know some Marines that feel awfully cheated. Also, I yell all the time, and rarely, if ever, do small rocks float around me and/or I throw balls of energy.

Let's not start pointing out what is stupid in cartoons, because a healthy suspension of disbelief is largely necessary to their enjoyment.

[lipe44]

We are discussing cartoons. Mildly illogical actions are a given. For example, why do the saiyans attain godlike speed and agility by doing push ups? I know some Marines that feel awfully cheated. Also, I yell all the time, and rarely, if ever, do small rocks float around me and/or I throw balls of energy.

Let's not start pointing out what is stupid in cartoons, because a healthy suspension of disbelief is largely necessary to their enjoyment.

So ill say that again but more clearly

Its even more stupid than the stupidity that there is normally in those totally unreal animes.

Better for you? And the godlike speed and agility has nothing to do with push ups...

[Arakune]

It has to do with running in a 10G ~ 100G environment. Starting crawling, and then running faster than a 100m world record (5.5s being the minimum standard), and then going to a 1G~1,5G~2G environment. That's were you have godlike speed.

[Nerd-o-rama]

How come you can block vital energy? Its just... stupid...
Have you read Silver Age Batman? Or better yet, watched the cartoon version, who is probably more powerful, if significantly dumber.

Also: there's techniques that disable a limb by hitting pressure points, supposedly by blocking Chi (I think one of the Ginyus on DBZ can do it, and I'm sure a bad guy on Avatar can. I use those as examples because they're both shows who you can shoot Chi out your hands). Batman could take this, research it, and science it up to something that could disable Goku.

It doesn't matter though, because Supes could probably take a few Kamehamehas to the chest (or really, in this case, an arbitrarily large number, because it's Superdickery Supes, and he's immune to everything.)

By the way, I found a way to settle this topic once and for all:

Superman is Hitler (http://www.superdickery.com/****/166.html).

There. I lose.

[Setra]

Goku teleports Superman to Heaven.

No Yellow Sun.

Goku wins.

[lipe44]

Have you read Silver Age Batman? Or better yet, watched the cartoon version, who is probably more powerful, if significantly dumber.

Also: there's techniques that disable a limb by hitting pressure points, supposedly by blocking Chi (I think one of the Ginyus on DBZ can do it, and I'm sure a bad guy on Avatar can. I use those as examples because they're both shows who you can shoot Chi out your hands). Batman could take this, research it, and science it up to something that could disable Goku.

It doesn't matter though, because Supes could probably take a few Kamehamehas to the chest (or really, in this case, an arbitrarily large number, because it's Superdickery Supes, and he's immune to everything.

I see, so you are claiming that he would get instantly knowledge of how Goku does the things. We are not talking about how stupid the writers were to put so many abilities, we are talking about the real abilities that he had not that he could have.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Why are you still talking to me? I lost the thread already.

(Plus, the Batman thing was kind of a tangent)

[Guyr Adamantine]

I just can't agree with you here. Superman is the incarnation of power. As long as the yellow sun shine, he is undefeatable. I'm not a big DBZ fan(yea original series!), but Budokai Tenkaichi is sure one of my favorite battle game and I try to be objective. It feels wrong that Supes could be beaten by anyone else than Darkseid.

[Rutee]

I see, so you are claiming that he would get instantly knowledge of how Goku does the things. We are not talking about how stupid the writers were to put so many abilities, we are talking about the real abilities that he had not that he could have.

Yes, in fact, he would. I'm sorry, but Silver Age Supes really was this retardedly brilliant and powerful. I can see where you're coming from with this; If he wasn't getting his deus ex machina, maybe he would be able to lose to Goku. But Silver Age Supes is nearly /defined/ by it.. I agree that it's definitely not a fair fight, and if it helps, I'd have to say that the modern age Supes would probably lose.. I'm pretty sure Darkseid and whatnot are lesser threats then Goku who've beaten him..

[Arakune]

I guess goku could beat modern age super and darkseid at once. But not Amasu, that thing was as powerful as silver age superman (they even need to but him on the bus to not become a cheap deus ex machina)

[lipe44]

You know, each time someone talk about Silver Age Superman i fell like losing my QI a little more, is that normal?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Goku really has just as much Deus Ex Machina as Silver Age Superman. Essentially, Superman defeats Goku with his Deus Ex Machina, Goku gets really angry and finds a new Super-Saiyan level (perhaps after Krillin is somehow slain), which he then uses to shamelessly own Superman, because the new super-saiyan level is always more powerful than what he's fighting. 1-1 record, in short. Victory defers to Piccolo on grounds of straight-up badass.

[Rutee]

You know, each time someone talk about Silver Age Superman i fell like losing my QI a little more, is that normal?
Entirely.


Goku really has just as much Deus Ex Machina as Silver Age Superman. Essentially, Superman defeats Goku with his Deus Ex Machina, Goku gets really angry and finds a new Super-Saiyan level (perhaps after Krillin is somehow slain), which he then uses to shamelessly own Superman, because the new super-saiyan level is always more powerful than what he's fighting. 1-1 record, in short. Victory defers to Piccolo on grounds of straight-up badass.
Then comes the part where SUperman shows his True Form right? Or was that before kicking Goku around...

[lipe44]

Entirely.

Good... wait... Its NOT good...



Then comes the part where Superman shows his True Form right? Or was that before kicking Goku around...

Then Goku gets to another level of Super Saiyan... The Super Saiyan 1 and 4 were achieved during fights, The Super Saiyan 3 was showed during a fight and i dont remenber The Super Saiyan 2.

Anyway, i see you are using his powers from several fan fictions(or at least it looks like) then i would like to call Goku from DragonBall AF.

[Setra]

Really though, even if Superman wins, Goku comes back to life all the time.

Heck, I bet they could make a wish to turn the Earth's sun Red.

This wouldn't effect anything as neither world runs on physics.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Actually, I think we have a winner there. That's exactly how the Dragonball crew would beat Superman.

It would require the supporting cast running around getting the Dragonballs while Goku fought Superman in a ridiculously protracted manner to distract him. It also assumes that Goku & Co. know about the red sun weakness, but Superman doesn't know about the Dragonballs (otherwise, he'd try to stop them and likely succeed). So it might not qualify for the argument.

[Rutee]

He'd have a Super Hunch. Or use his Super-Intellect to decipher the plan of opponents he's not only never met, but has no clue about, and couldn't, by any means of the plausible imagination, deduce the intentions of.

Or he'd hear them searching for the Dragonballs from like, across the planet, or something equally ridiculous.

[lipe44]

So imagine Superman and Goku starts a fight while all others get the Dragonballs, they get 2 wishs, the first is "Which should be the next wish to defeat Superman" and then the 2nd wish is the answer... So easily..


Anyway, it will be like this(assuming superman as totally stupid invencible)

They fight, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears, Superman kills Goku, Goku reappears. Then:

Superman: Die.. DIE... WHY DONT YOU DIE?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Entirely.


Then comes the part where SUperman shows his True Form right? Or was that before kicking Goku around...

I meant it averaged out to 1-1. They go through a process kinda like that about fifty times, with two-hundred filler episodes of talking about the process in-between.

I'd like to bring up the point that Piccolo is made out of kryptonite.
Exhibit A: He is green, like kryptonie. Grass, as kentucky has taught us, is not green, but blue. Therefore, being green, Piccolo is nonot grass, and thus is Kryptonie.
Exhibit B: Kryptonite is required to win against Superman, and Piccolo is made of win. Thus he must be made of kryptonite.
It cannot be denied. The great Veisu has spoken!

[Anteros]

Well...being familiar with both Supes at his prime, and Goku...I'd have to give this one to Goku, easily. The power creep in DBZ is just too absurd. At the beginning of the series, a character has the power to blow up an entire planet with very little effort. At this point that characters power level is registered to be about 20,000. Towards the end of the series Goku's power level was listed in the trillions.

Even being generous to Supes and putting Goku's power at 1 trillion means that he can blow up planets by using one 50 millionth of his power. He's passed up puny things like creating stars long long ago, and I just don't see how "super weaving" or "super farming" or whatever is going to help Supes overcome the sheer physical power disparity.

Edit: Also, Piccollo is apparently made out of kyptonite.

[....]

I think Superman is faster than Goku.

If Superman knows that Goku can power up, Superman flies in with ultrasuperspeed and snaps his neck before he can. Then rips him in half, just in case.

[lipe44]

I think Superman is faster than Goku.

If Superman knows that Goku can power up, Superman flies in with ultrasuperspeed and snaps his neck before he can. Then rips him in half, just in case.

Hum... You do know that no matter what Goku always win, right?

[Setra]

Hum... You do know that no matter what Goku always win, right?
So did that version of Superman I think.

[Anteros]

Well, I'd say their speeds are relatively similar. Also, considering that Goku et all can sense enemies from across the galaxy, I doubt the sneak attack option would work. (Not that Supes would ever use it in the first place.)

[lipe44]

So did that version of Superman I think.

Well, it lost the last battle while Goku didnt.

[Blue Paladin]

I was fine with leaving this topic dead, but since it's been brought back to the first page:


You do know that no matter what Goku always win, right?Do me a favor. Go find a copy of Cooler's Revenge. Note how many bad guys are killed by Gokuu, versus how many are killed by Piccolo. Now realize that Cooler didn't even die, and returns in the following movie, the aptly titled Return of Cooler. Which means Gokuu's contribution was exactly nothing.

You know what Gokuu accomplishes between Freeza and Buu? Nothing. Fails to destroy the cyborgs. Fails to stop Cell's advancement. Fails to defeat Cell. Needs everyone else's power in the whole universe to defeat Buu. Ever stop to think what would happen if 17 decided, "Nah, do it yourself." and didn't grant Gokuu his endless energy?

re: Anteros. From your description, I don't think you are as familiar with "Superman at his prime" as you say. Silver Age Superman makes life grow on a dead planet. He flies through space unaided. He time travels without Legion Time Bubbles or Flash's Treadmills. He crosses realities (to/from Earth-2) on a whim. Considering he can move planets around without those planets crumbling to pieces in his hands, he has considerably more than just brute strength going for him. This does not even touch on his mental abilities which are even more ridiculous. He is the master of every earthly science, and most (if not all) of Kryptonian science. He can hypnotize everyone who so much as looks at his photograph. This is the tip of the iceberg of Silver Age Superman.

re: lipe44's plan involving the other characters gathering the Dragon Balls. Neither Shenron nor Porunga have the ability to use their powers on beings more powerful than their creators without the consent of said beings. The Galaxy Dragon Balls (which have far fewer restrictions) were destroyed when Piccolo let himself die.

And there's at least 50% of the hypothetical fight that will never happen. Silver Age Superman doesn't kill. He's a total **** (http://www.superdickery.com), but he doesn't kill. However, he's fine with imprisoning people to a horrible (and occasionally eternal) punishment; you can argue that this is worse than death.


Goku really has just as much Deus Ex Machina as Silver Age Superman...the new super-saiyan level is always more powerful than what he's fighting.Hmm. Let's see.

SSJ > Freeza
SSJ2 = Perfect Cell
SSJ3 < Buu
SSJ4 < Baby Vegeta

That last one I haven't seen personally, and I got the info from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Saiyan#Super_Saiyan_4), stating SSJ4 "was first achieved by Son Goku when battling Baby Vegeta". It goes on to say Baby Vegeta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_%28Dragon_Ball%29) "far outpowered Goku at Super Saiyan 4".

I saw the other three personally, so I can actually talk about those.

SSJ - Gokuu is definitely stronger than Freeza. No contest there.

SSJ2 - Gokuu fought evenly with Perfect Cell for quite some time. However, Cell was tireless, and Gokuu knew he couldn't keep up the fight forever. I am generously calling this equal, even though Gokuu admitted that, given enough time, he would lose.

SSJ3 - Gokuu fought against Majin Buu and I honestly don't think he missed a single attack; every blow connected. Buu took no appreciable damage, bouncing back from whatever Gokuu did. Gokuu was forced to withdraw before his time ran out (and he would revert to the totally ineffective SSJ2).

A deus ex machina that works less than half the time? Not exactly worthy of the term.


You know, each time someone talk about Silver Age Superman i fell like losing my [IQ] a little more, is that normal?Yes. Because Silver Age Superman is so powerful. Absurdly powerful. Stupidly powerful. And people who argue against it can't seem to comprehend the magnitude of it. The Gokuu vs Superman argument has been around since the days of USENET. Every sane discussion has specifically excluded Silver Age Superman with good reason.


Goku teleports Superman to Heaven.

No Yellow Sun.

Goku wins.For Gokuu, Heaven is at the top of a staff on top of a tower. That's even closer to a yellow sun than almost anywhere else on Dragon World.


How come you can block vital energy? Its just... stupid... Um. Just about every fighter in Dragon Ball history has blocked ki blasts. By your own statement..?


Is this Silver Age Superman? Because if he is, I believe all our arguments for Supe winning were just nulled and voided.

http://www.superdickery.com/stupor/2.htmlYep, that's him. In fact, that's why I didn't even bring up the one way I thought Gokuu might win: a stupidity contest. Even Gokuu's moronic outlook pales in comparison to Silver Age Superman's Super-Stupidity. Anyway, math has no bearing on winning or losing... unless it's a math contest. In which case the "most powerful" version of Superman is (probably) Modern Age. Blame the OP for including that phrase.


Man, silver age superman wins because he are the second most broken character in DC (the first one is Lobo...Lobo was created long after the shift to Modern Age Superman. If you're basing Lobo's power off how "he can put a good fight to superman", you're looking at the wrong Superman. Silver Age Superman was orders of magnitude more powerful than Modern Age ever was.


Superman is only marginally immune to inertia, and he can be hit. Just not damaged, really.Sorry NOR, I know you Godwin'd yourself out of this thread, but I'm still pointing out:

Silver Age Superman is from (obviously) the Silver Age. Physics is not really a concern (unless you're writing for Green Lantern, in which case physics is bent to your will), and inertia can safely be ignored by Super-Fiat. For instance, you'd think a multi-ton wrecking ball swinging square into Supes would budge him at least a little. Nope, he stands there smiling as the ball crumbles to pieces off of his head. I vividly remember that picture from the Prankster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prankster) entry for Who's Who.

re: Following Gokuu to a red star system. Totally. Silver Age Superman is totally stupid enough to do that. He will probably discover a cache of blue kryptonite once there, restoring his powers. That's just how it works out for him. Probably his Super-Luck. Or, if he borrows writers from Silver Age Green Lantern, he'll use the last of his power to fly towards the red sun at relativistic speeds, blue-shifting its rays to yellow and therefore restoring his powers. (Yes, Green Lantern actually used this one, flying at relativistic speeds away from people who had stolen GL rings, and firing an energy beam back towards them which red-shifted down the spectrum to yellow, which the bandits had no power against. Give a Silver Age writer some science facts, and they will destroy logic with it. Yes, I have an issue with Green Lantern.)


He entered into the star then left the other side?Actually he's done this in Modern Age too... he went into the sun for 15000 years, and came out super-super-powered. And with the last Green Lantern ring delivered to him too. Man, just re-reading the blurb on Superman 1000000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_One_Million), it's power creep on the DBZ scale.

Also from Modern Age, at the end of Infinite Crisis both Kal-El and Kal-L went through a Red Sun Eater with Superboy-Prime. In one side, out the other. They survived a crash-landing-on/catch-by Mogo. Drained of power, but they (all three) survived.

These are versions who are less powerful than Silver Age Superman.


Now we are starting to logicless like those writers....Welcome to the Silver Age.


Goku is extremely strong, he would probably reduce Superman to a lot of unconnect members.Sorry, this one made me laugh out loud. Switch the words "Goku" and "Superman" and try to find an argument to refute it. "Superman is extremely strong; he would probably reduce Gokuu to a lot of disconnected limbs."


When in his history he faced Chi abilities and didnt get hurt? None?When in his Silver Age history has he faced anything (at full power) and did get hurt? None?

Try to understand that the Superman you think you know is not the Superman being discussed. Imagine the frustration you might feel when you are discussing this guy (http://torredekarin.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/goku-ssj4-31.jpg), and the person you're talking to keeps talking about this guy (http://www.kanzentai.com/guide/episode/db_son_goku.jpg) (the one who actually felt pain from regular bullets), or maybe even worse (http://www.jeuxmangas.net/IMG/jpg/songoku.jpg). That's the level of disconnect we're talking about.

Here's a crib sheet for future reference.
- Silver Age Superman
- Internet Chuck Norris
- D&D3.5 Pun Pun
- SSJ4
- Superfriends Superman is much stronger (physically) than SSJ4, but he's much much slower on a tactical scale. I'm willing to let him slide down the scale for that. Never mind that he can (and does) fly across the universe at whim, sometimes he can barely outrun a toy plane.
- SSJ3
- Pre-Crisis Superman is probably around here, in the SSJ2 to SSJ3 range
- SSJ2
- Modern Age Superman is arguably around here, in the SSJ to SSJ2 range
- Movie Superman is probably around here too. I mean, time manipulation. What's up with that?
- SSJ
- Diniverse Superman is pretty solidly down here. The Animated Series drags the average down, but Justice League Unlimited lifts it back up. You can argue whichever way you like.
- Freeza

[lipe44]

Why you had to bring this thread back? Why?

Now i will just have to post...

About SSJ4 being much weaker than Baby Vegeta, its not near the truth. Goku was easily winning then he transformed into SSJ4 with the help of a machine that recovered him completely and raised his power a lot, to the point that before he was nothing compared to after. Then goku started losing. But as we all know at the end he won and when bebi tried to flee with his spaceship we got throwed at the Sun...

Did you saw the last episodes of DBGT? Goku once more saved the day after having being beaten to death like 10 times and after killing the dragonballs guys, then beating the one-star guy. Then beating him with all dragonballs, then removing the dragonballs, then beating him again with all dragonballs then preventing him from getting one of the dragonballs back THEN he started losing but soon killed him...

Anyway i got bored of you taking all works done at that age and adding them. From now on we will be taking DragonBall AF goku ssj5. When he transformed the planet he was in got destroyed without him doing nothing just by his presence the planet exploded. Now beat that.