Help building KibblesTasty's Psion

[yisopo]

I would like to build an optimized KibblesTasty's Psion. Here the class details: https://www.kthomebrew.com/s/Psion-153-Compressed.pdf

The roles I prefer (in descending order): battlefield controller, debuffer, striker, utility.

Based on that, I was thinking "Awakened Mind" as archetype, and maybe "Telekinesis" and "Telepathy"? Any advice on the Psychokinesis Talents?

I'm interested of playing from level 3 to level 10/13.

[Kane0]

Do you know anything about your party?

[Phhase]

Hmm, this is a quite rich class, I'm intrigued. I'll have to give it a closer look before I can answer but it looks promising.

[yisopo]

Do you know anything about your party?
Not so much yet. The party will have 4 characters. One will be a Warrior or Paladin and another one will be a Monk or Rogue. I don't know about the third character.

But I'm more than happy to build here a Psion without considering the rest of the party. :smallbiggrin:


Hmm, this is a quite rich class, I'm intrigued. I'll have to give it a closer look before I can answer but it looks promising.

Yeah! My favourite class is Wizard (as a controller) because of the large amount of options/customizations (and the game style). So I hope to find something interesting in the Psion too. :smallsmile:

[Kane0]

Well Awakened Mind gives you Telepathy as a bonus discipline, if you're starting at level 3 you can pick up something like Enhancement, Precognition or Transposition to give you a good selection of utility stuff, or Telekinesis or Nullification for control.

You will probably want a race that gives Int or a feat, though you could pick anything really. Dwarf is solid if you arent sure what sort of game youre going into. Theres tons of varieties of Elf to choose from, plus Gnome which has advantage on mental saves, which seems appropriate.

As far as talents go, from the schools above Enhanced Regrowth, Attuned Argument, Rift Strike (maybe), Glimpsed Future and Iron Templar look like good options. From the nonspecific list Psi Crystal and Propelled Bound look pretty great too.

[Phhase]

Cryokinetic looks promising for control. It has some good freezing spells and can severely reduce multiple creatures' speed in the right circumstances.

[Abuzorg]

I love Kibbles work, his material is a great fit for my games. In case you missed it, Kibbles himself wrote a guide for his Psion class :

https://www.reddit.com/r/KibblesTasty/comments/rxvf2x/guide_to_psion_walking_through_the_abilities_and/

It should help you getting started and get some build ideas.

[yisopo]

Well Awakened Mind gives you Telepathy as a bonus discipline, if you're starting at level 3 you can pick up something like Enhancement, Precognition or Transposition to give you a good selection of utility stuff, or Telekinesis or Nullification for control.

Precognition looks very strong.

Transposition looks very good for a gish pc but I'm not interested to play a gish character. It lacks teleportation options again enemies (like vortex wrap): only Banishment (lvl 4) and Spatial Manipulation (lvl 5) are available.

Telekinesis: I'm very interested in this one but the damege type of the Telekinetic Force is bludgeoning. :-(
Nullification: I haven't fully absorb it.


You will probably want a race that gives Int or a feat, though you could pick anything really. Dwarf is solid if you arent sure what sort of game youre going into. Theres tons of varieties of Elf to choose from, plus Gnome which has advantage on mental saves, which seems appropriate.
I add I can use the floating ability bonus from Tasha.


As far as talents go, from the schools above Enhanced Regrowth, Attuned Argument, Rift Strike (maybe), Glimpsed Future and Iron Templar look like good options. From the nonspecific list Psi Crystal and Propelled Bound look pretty great too.
I'm not yet done with all the talents. But I can say I'm impressed by Psi Crystal.


Cryokinetic looks promising for control. It has some good freezing spells and can severely reduce multiple creatures' speed in the right circumstances.
Very interesting indeed. It is a pity so many monsters are immune/resistance to cold damage.


I love Kibbles work, his material is a great fit for my games. In case you missed it, Kibbles himself wrote a guide for his Psion class :

https://www.reddit.com/r/KibblesTasty/comments/rxvf2x/guide_to_psion_walking_through_the_abilities_and/

It should help you getting started and get some build ideas.
I read it and it is very interesting indeed as a general introduction. But I'm looking to strong options and combos here. :smallbiggrin:

[yisopo]

I'm reading and commenting the pdf. I will post it here soon. ;-)

[Phhase]

Even just one level of rogue looks like it'd be a great combo with Precognition, since you can bonus action give yourself advantage to proc sneak attack.

[Kane0]

I love Kibbles work, his material is a great fit for my games. In case you missed it, Kibbles himself wrote a guide for his Psion class :

https://www.reddit.com/r/KibblesTasty/comments/rxvf2x/guide_to_psion_walking_through_the_abilities_and/

It should help you getting started and get some build ideas.

Oh well thats convenient. Good read!

[yisopo]

There is one thing I don't understand and maybe you can help me with.

There are 6 psionic spells (in the end of the pdf) that looks like none can take them. I cannot see a way to obtain those low-level spells:


Alacrity (I think it should be Enhancement or Transposition)
Crushing Singularity (I think it should be Telekinesis)
Disorient (I think it should be Telepathy)
Fall (I think it should be Telekinesis)
Terrifying Visions (I think it should be Telepathy)
Unburden (I think it should be Enhancement or Transposition)

[Abuzorg]

There is one thing I don't understand and maybe you can help me with.

There are 6 psionic spells (in the end of the pdf) that looks like none can take them. I cannot see a way to obtain those low-level spells:


Alacrity (I think it should be Enhancement or Transposition)
Crushing Singularity (I think it should be Telekinesis)
Disorient (I think it should be Telepathy)
Fall (I think it should be Telekinesis)
Terrifying Visions (I think it should be Telepathy)
Unburden (I think it should be Enhancement or Transposition)

I found there were some problems in the standalone document for the Psion. I assume these are editing mistakes because those spells are in the full Kibbles Compendium. Almost all of those spells are obtainable by some specialization of the Inventor's class. The only exception is Alacrity, which seems to be unobtainable by either the Psion or the Inventor.

[yisopo]

I found there were some problems in the standalone document for the Psion. I assume these are editing mistakes because those spells are in the full Kibbles Compendium. Almost all of those spells are obtainable by some specialization of the Inventor's class. The only exception is Alacrity, which seems to be unobtainable by either the Psion or the Inventor.
It makes sense. Thank you for the explanation ;-)

[yisopo]

I'm reading and commenting the pdf. I will post it here soon. ;-)
My original intent was to present here a detailed analysis of the class, archetypes, disciplines, talents and spells. But I'm not so good at mathematically evaluate those things, so I will just give comments based on my tastes and play-style preferences.

Archetypes
My favourite for flavour is Awakened Mind. And I really like it for mechanics too. In particular, I like Mental Awareness (1st-level ability) and Mind Reader (3rd-level ability).

Other archetype I like a lot is Shaper’s Mind. I love the Astral Construct and Shaper’s Mind allow to use it even better.

Disciplines

Enhancement. It is all about gaining temporary HPs and buffing: I'm not interested in those things. You can have Polymorph but only on yourself: Polymorph is great on others, not so good on the caster.

Projection. You get the Astral Construct and many options with it. And, as already stated, I love it.
Spells. I’m not impressed by these spells.
Talents. I like to get Animate Object or Wall of Stone. I like the ability to switch place with the construct as bonus action.

Telekinesis. 1d10 damages and shoved 5 feet: I like it. What I don't like: Saving on Strength and the damage type is (non-magical) bludgeoning.
Spells. Great selections: Levitate, Resilient Sphere, Telekinesis and Wall of Force.
Talents. I like: Precise Power and Telekinetic Movement.

Telepathy. 1d8 psychic damage and disadvantage on attacks made against you: I really like this one. Other great options: making a creature invisible to the target or minor illusion, the target is stunned, the target is frightened.
Spells. I like: Compelled query, Command, Delve Mind, Fear. But I don’t see good high-level spells here though.
Talents. I like: I like: Reflected Agony.

Transposition. Teleportation and 1d8 force damage: I really like this one but it is more useful for a melee character.
Spells. I like: Flicker, Misty Step, Turbulent Warp, Banishment, Dimension Door and Spatial Manipulation.
Talents. I like: Flickering Escape, Phase Shroud.

Psychokinesis. 1d8 damage + three choosable riders is great for flexibility.
Spells. I like: Fireball.
Specialization. I like Cryokinetic for the control, but unfortunately al lot of monsters are immune/resistance to cold damage.
Talents. I like: Elemental Emotions.

Precognition. Bonus to Perception and Initiative: this is strong and I like it. Plus, the ability to give advantage (and more damages) or disadvantage (and less damages) to attack roll.
Spells. Nothing interesting.
Talents. I like: Glimpsed Future, One Step Ahead.

Nullification. Very strong but "only" against aberration, celestial, construct, elemental, fey, fiend, undead, or a creature with the ability to cast spells or use psionic powers.
Spells. I like: Nullify Effect, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Banishment.
Talents. I like: Iron Templar, Magical Resistance.

Consumption. Damages on Charisma saving throw and other leech options.
Spells. I like: Psychic Drain.
Talents. I like: Unlife Wielder.

Universal Talents
I like:

- Divided Mind
- Elemental Penetration (indispensable to bypass resistances/immunities for Psychokinesis and
Telekinetics)
- Mind Devourer (but only good for melee psion?)
- Perfect Focus
- Psi Crystal (I really like this one!)
- Psionic Defenses
- Schism

[yisopo]

Summarizing all, I have two choices and several sub-choices:


Awakened Mind

I get Telepathy for free. The strengths of Telepathy is its psionic power: Telepathic Intrusion. Great damages and riders. The spells are ok till level 3, after that I don't see anything interesting. So, maybe, I need better spells for my second discipline?

As second discipline, I see these available options for me:

Telekinesis. I'm not impressed by the telekinesis psionic power, but I have already Telepathic Intrusion, so no problem. Here we have very good 4+ level spells, so I think it would be a good match with Telepathy. I think this is the best option.

Precognition. Because of Prescience: this is very strong. An that's all. So I think this is the worst option here.


Shaper’s Mind

I get Projection for free. The strengths of Projection is its psionic power: Astral Construct. And the spells are quite meh...

As second discipline, I see these available options for me:

Telekinesis. I'm not impressed by the telekinesis psionic power, but I have already Astral Construct, so no problem. Here we have good spells, so I think it would be a good match with Projection.

Enhancement. As I said, I'm not a big fan of this one, but with this discipline and the talent Life Link, it would be more difficult to break the construct. I don't like these spells though. So, I think this is the worst option here.


Conclusions (?)

Awakened Mind + Telekinesis, or Shaper’s Mind + Telekinesis. Do you have other suggestions or comments?

[Abuzorg]

Telekinesis. 1d10 damages and shoved 5 feet: I like it. What I don't like: Saving on Strength and the damage type is (non-magical) bludgeoning.
Spells. Great selections: Levitate, Resilient Sphere, Telekinesis and Wall of Force.
Talents. I like: Precise Power and Telekinetic Movement.

You are missing something with Telekinetic Power. RAW, damage made with spells and magical abilities are magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction from B/P/S damage. At least that a pretty widely accepted interpretation.


As for your build choice, I don't see much synergy between a Shaper's Projection and Telekinesis disciplines, while there are obvious combos available to an Awakened Mind with Telekinesis with the Schism talent.

[yisopo]

You are missing something with Telekinetic Power. RAW, damage made with spells and magical abilities are magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction from B/P/S damage. At least that a pretty widely accepted interpretation.
You are totally right. I never used B/P/S-damage spells so I misremembered this point. I was confused also because, if a summon a creature causing B/P/S-damage, even if this was summoned using magic, its damage are not magical by default.


As for your build choice, I don't see much synergy between a Shaper's Projection and Telekinesis disciplines, while there are obvious combos available to an Awakened Mind with Telekinesis with the Schism talent.

You are right. Shaper's Projection + Telekinesis was just a way to justify Shaper's Projection :smallbiggrin:

I agree the best synergy is Awakened Mind + Telekinesis + Schism. Even if Schism drains a lot of Psi Points!


Anyway, I'm a little concerned about monsters with higher than normal saves or legendary resistance? OK, Telekinesis discipline has spells Telekinesis and Wall of Force to face this problem. But that's it. Yeah, if you take talent Kinetic Slam so you can use the Telekinetic Force power as a ranged spell attack instead of requiring a Strength saving throw, but as additional option you can choose only choose more damages, not other control options. Moreover Telepathy doesn't have anything to face this kind of monsters...

So I fear this psion could be less effective starting at mid/end tier 2.