Suggestions for some encounters to humble (not kill) players?

[Odessa333]

Hello all,

DM here. My party has been tearing my encounters to shreds lately, just hit level 8, and are on top of the world having scored a major win on the BBEG. Win their victory, new loot, and new level, they feel confident. TOO confident.


I need to rack up the difficulty, without making it impossible. They all have decent AC, and a Paladin giving good saves to everyone (others are cleric, fighter, rogue, and warlock) so 'level appropriate' stuff isn't cutting it. The last fight I gave was against 3 trolls, which took them a while as none of them have fire attacks/spells, so they had to dig through bags to look for oil. It was good as it made them think instead of steam rolling the encounter, yet they still were in control of the situation with a lot of health/healing still available to them.

So yea, long story short, I'm looking for any ideas of ways to trip them up like with the trolls, make things challenging without throwing 10 ancient dragons on top of them. Any ideas would be appreciated.

[Unoriginal]

Hello all,

DM here. My party has been tearing my encounters to shreds lately, just hit level 8, and are on top of the world having scored a major win on the BBEG. Win their victory, new loot, and new level, they feel confident. TOO confident.


I need to rack up the difficulty, without making it impossible. They all have decent AC, and a Paladin giving good saves to everyone (others are cleric, fighter, rogue, and warlock) so 'level appropriate' stuff isn't cutting it. The last fight I gave was against 3 trolls, which took them a while as none of them have fire attacks/spells, so they had to dig through bags to look for oil. It was good as it made them think instead of steam rolling the encounter, yet they still were in control of the situation with a lot of health/healing still available to them.

So yea, long story short, I'm looking for any ideas of ways to trip them up like with the trolls, make things challenging without throwing 10 ancient dragons on top of them. Any ideas would be appreciated.


Would you mind expanding on what the party composition is (subclasses, feats, etc) and the kind of equipment & other ressources they have, please?

[WaroftheCrans]

Hello all,

DM here. My party has been tearing my encounters to shreds lately, just hit level 8, and are on top of the world having scored a major win on the BBEG. Win their victory, new loot, and new level, they feel confident. TOO confident.


I need to rack up the difficulty, without making it impossible. They all have decent AC, and a Paladin giving good saves to everyone (others are cleric, fighter, rogue, and warlock) so 'level appropriate' stuff isn't cutting it. The last fight I gave was against 3 trolls, which took them a while as none of them have fire attacks/spells, so they had to dig through bags to look for oil. It was good as it made them think instead of steam rolling the encounter, yet they still were in control of the situation with a lot of health/healing still available to them.

So yea, long story short, I'm looking for any ideas of ways to trip them up like with the trolls, make things challenging without throwing 10 ancient dragons on top of them. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Could do classics of mindflayer related stuff. An Illithid, Ulitharid, and a couple intellect devourers could make a very nasty time for the party, which probably lacks good int saves. It's probably a hard-deadly encounter, but not overboard on the CR.

Edit: I was probably subconsciously influenced by the other thread.

[CTurbo]

You could run anything that ends up with them getting captured and possibly losing some loot. My favorite thing to do is create NPC villain characters using class levels. They'd need to be a few levels higher than the party.

[Amnestic]

If their saves are buoyed so strongly due to the paladin's aura, then forcing them to spread out will help with this. Obviously persistent AoEs can make this happen but grappling a party member and then dragging it away from the pack can really screw with the party's expectations and send them into a panic, especially if it looks like they might be dragged 'off the map'. Anything that auto-grapples on a hit works for this. One option might be Death Kiss (VGtM) - CR10, so a Hard fight on its own (against a party of 4 level 8s) or potentially Deadly if you give it some backup. It has an auto grapple on its +8 to hit tentacles, 20ft range, 30ft hover flight speed, and can make three attacks per turn. If it has someone grappled? It can force a consave to deal damage and heal for half as much, giving it some resiliency on top of its decently chunky health pool, moderate AC and good con/wis saves.

Having it float above the party out of melee range, grapple a squishy in the "aura range" and then fly upwards means that even if the squishy breaks the grapple, they'll take fall damage on their next turn. Also a bonus: the party will get to use Feather Fall and feel smart, or wish they had Feather Fall and will always have it prepared going forwards.

If you're really worried about their resilience then toss a Gauth or two into the fight (CR6) with their Stunning Gaze passive and their eye rays to force a lot of saves and even with the paladin aura they're going to start failing eventually...probably, though that could quickly overcome them and turn into a TPK if the failed saves stack up. Gauths are fairly squishy and will go down in 1-2 rounds each if they get focused, but while they're up they're quite dangerous, and would give the Death Kiss cover to do its grapple+float away tactic.

Instead of grappling and flying away, grappling and swimming down also works. A few of giant crocodiles (CR5) pulling people underwater (where casting spells with verbal components without drowning may be trickier!) could be a nasty surprise too.

[Sorinth]

The party looks very attack oriented so going up against something like Medusas or Basilisks could be interesting since imposing disadvantage on all attacks is painful. But with the reflection possibility it helps promote the outside the box thinking that you are looking for.

An evil druid or sorcerer with 4-5 pet Basilisks could make for an interesting fight.

[Sigreid]

Sprites have the potential to knock them out and move them out of the Forrest with just a few minor scratches. I'm just saying...

[sithlordnergal]

Might I know Subclasses, most important magic items, the Paladin's bonus, and ACs?

That said, one encounter I enjoy that really messed with a powerful party:


A 10ft wide hallway with an Ogre Zombie wearing Plate Armor and a Shield in the middle to block the path. All the Ogre Zombie does is dodge.

Behind it is a Skull Lord that has Chill Touch, Counterspell, Cloudkill, and attacks from behind cover. Give it three skeletons to back it up

Have two or three wraiths that travel through the walls to attack the party. Make sure they never end their turn in a space the party can reach them, so the only attacks the party can get off are Held Actions or Opportunity Attacks.

Finally, have some Bodaks hidden behind a wall with holes in it, just big enough to peek through. This will let the Bodaks slowly drain the party's HP via their Aura, target people with their Withering Gaze, and anyone who looks through will be subject to the Bodak's death gaze


I'd make a room like this:

https://i.ibb.co/c2v4NGC/Bodak-Encounter.png

[Easy e]

You need to change the stakes of the conflict. Sure, they can kill all the baddies, but does that actually help them solve the "problem of the encounter"?

Think about Superman. There are a few characters that can tackle him toe-to-toe, but they do not come out to play in every comic. Instead, the writers challenge Superman in non-physical ways by putting things he cares about, his values, or problems that can not be solved by hitting them, as the stakes of an episode.

For example, you can beat all the monsters to death but it does not matter if they have all ready burned the only bridge across the Chasm of Impossibly Gusty Winds. Of course, you have to cross the Chasm of Impossibly Gusty Wind in order to stop your favorite NPC from a "Fate Worse Than Death" by the BBEG in the next 2 hours. So, great you killed the monsters but they have clearly raised the stakes for the adventure.

Probably all known, but sometimes you have to hear it again.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Maybe something with a trap or 2. It could do a bit of damage or divide the party.
Or maybe something with an illusion that looks nasty and gets the party to burn some resources. Then the real threat shows up a couple of minutes later.
Depending on party composition something in water or other terrain could change the dynamics.

Any of these, or in combination, with the encounters you typically run should step things up a bit.

[stoutstien]

Hello all,

DM here. My party has been tearing my encounters to shreds lately, just hit level 8, and are on top of the world having scored a major win on the BBEG. Win their victory, new loot, and new level, they feel confident. TOO confident.


I need to rack up the difficulty, without making it impossible. They all have decent AC, and a Paladin giving good saves to everyone (others are cleric, fighter, rogue, and warlock) so 'level appropriate' stuff isn't cutting it. The last fight I gave was against 3 trolls, which took them a while as none of them have fire attacks/spells, so they had to dig through bags to look for oil. It was good as it made them think instead of steam rolling the encounter, yet they still were in control of the situation with a lot of health/healing still available to them.

So yea, long story short, I'm looking for any ideas of ways to trip them up like with the trolls, make things challenging without throwing 10 ancient dragons on top of them. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Take a step back and reframe what challenges are. Difficulty/deadliness have a sharp diminishing return in this regard because there is a threshold where either it get so wound up any mistake/string of bad luck will spiral or they simply don't respond in the manner you planned for and you have to throttle back anyways.

Challenge is a combination of the unknown and conflicting goals. The easiest place to increase your return is the "why and how" questions. What drives the NPCs and why is it at odds with the PCs? How are they actively working towards the goal?

I'd also suggest avoiding the idea that NPCs always make the best choices. Have 1-2 little snippets regarding how they would do something out of frustration, fear, or arrogance. NPCs making mistakes opens up opportunities for scene shifts and lateral approaches.

*Tactical play is fun but it has its limits. Remember unless that you are sitting on a ton of experience over your table, they have more heads, eyes, and angles to look at stuff. It becomes very difficult after a certain point where you can use tactics as a form of challenge without "got ya' mechanics.*

[solidork]

We had one of the most interesting challenges we've ever faced at the start of my current campaign; we had to try and protect a village from an enemy that could turn invisible, teleport short distances and that had absolutely no interest in directly confronting the party. She just wanted to exact her long drawn out vengeance on the village by picking of people who were vulnerable. We had to come up with several very clever plans to draw her out and she still managed to escape twice before we finally cornered her and sealed her away again.

The party was never in any real danger of being killed by this witch, but the NPCs were horribly exposed. Trying to figure out a way to keep her from killing anyone was very stressful, even impossible for some parties.

We had a 3 person party of a Paladin, Bard and Barbarian.

[Dork_Forge]

Shadows, Wights, and Flame Skulls will do this very well.

In my experience players start to freak out when their Str and HP max starts dropping, flameskulls bring enough AoE and auto hit damage to soften them up and maybe spread them out.

[Sigreid]

I think the well known classic is kobolds with their pack tactics defending their home with every advantage they can give themselves.

[Beelzebub1111]

Might I recommend the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan? It's an old 1e module but it converts pretty easily over to 5e wihout much trouble. The threats are mostly puzzles and traps you might find in an ancient temple with just a little bit of combat to keep things interesting.

Another thing you might want to try is The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, but don't provide your players with a map beyond the room they are currently in. In this digital age, players making their own maps is something of a lost art, and finding out where you are in relation to everything else is a unique and rewarding experience.

Don't get too bogged down in CRs or "fair challenges". Just convert the monsters 1 for 1. This is 5e, they can take pretty much whatever you throw at them.

[Dr.Samurai]

What about a scenic mountain clearing, overlooking a misty valley as the sun rises, displaying the majesty and wonder of creation? Surely a sight to humble the toughest murder hobos.

[Sigreid]

What about a scenic mountain clearing, overlooking a misty valley as the sun rises, displaying the majesty and wonder of creation? Surely a sight to humble the toughest murder hobos.

That's it, it's all gotta go.

[J-H]

I think the well known classic is kobolds with their pack tactics defending their home with every advantage they can give themselves.

Or goblins. Goblins have BA disengage, so they are incredibly slippery. I just wrapped up testing a module / campaign here on the forums (Goblin Defense) where a team of 3 goblin PCs aided by some low level goblins had to fight off increasingly difficult groups of higher-level adventurers. By the end, there were, among other things:

Secret doors and passages, including some that had Tiny areas that goblins had to squeeze through and Medium creatures couldn't get through at all.
a 60' long well-lit killbox hallway full of difficult terrain so it was slow to cross, backing up to non-lit areas where goblins could attack with advantage from being unseen, with light crossbow fire (+4 to hit with advantage for 1d8+2 damage x 6 attacks?)
Small sized alcoves that the goblins could freely move through, but Medium creatures had to squeeze through
Pop up - shoot - run away tactics

And of course they had magic items from prior adventurers, like a Ring of Free action, caltrops, Goggles of Night giving them 120' darkvision.

Good spells for this:
Heat Metal (cast on the Paladin and run away, maintaining concentration and sniping from range and retreating around corners)
Grease (duration 1 minute, put it right in front of a Small space guarded by a barbarian, placed where there's not a long line of sight)
Entangle (restrained means ranged attackers have advantage)
Spike Growth to prevent closing to melee

In confined spaces with movement-limiters, it was taking me 2-3 rounds to get adventuring PCs to close to melee range with the goblin defenders.

[Sigreid]

Or goblins. Goblins have BA disengage, so they are incredibly slippery. I just wrapped up testing a module / campaign here on the forums (Goblin Defense) where a team of 3 goblin PCs aided by some low level goblins had to fight off increasingly difficult groups of higher-level adventurers. By the end, there were, among other things:

Secret doors and passages, including some that had Tiny areas that goblins had to squeeze through and Medium creatures couldn't get through at all.
a 60' long well-lit killbox hallway full of difficult terrain so it was slow to cross, backing up to non-lit areas where goblins could attack with advantage from being unseen, with light crossbow fire (+4 to hit with advantage for 1d8+2 damage x 6 attacks?)
Small sized alcoves that the goblins could freely move through, but Medium creatures had to squeeze through
Pop up - shoot - run away tactics

And of course they had magic items from prior adventurers, like a Ring of Free action, caltrops, Goggles of Night giving them 120' darkvision.

Good spells for this:
Heat Metal (cast on the Paladin and run away, maintaining concentration and sniping from range and retreating around corners)
Grease (duration 1 minute, put it right in front of a Small space guarded by a barbarian, placed where there's not a long line of sight)
Entangle (restrained means ranged attackers have advantage)
Spike Growth to prevent closing to melee

In confined spaces with movement-limiters, it was taking me 2-3 rounds to get adventuring PCs to close to melee range with the goblin defenders.

Don't forget there is 0 reason for a kobold or goblin or gnome etc. Tribe to have passage ceilings higher than 3 or 4 feet.

[J-H]

Watsonian: They took over their lair from something else, and it's a lot of work to lower ceilings.

Doylist: If the entire thing is Small and the adventurers have to squeeze all the way through, they're more likely to abandon it, camp outside for a week starving the goblins out, or try to flood it.

[Incorrect]

Nothing puts the fear into players like forcing failed death saves.
My example:
The characters had to assassinate a vampire. She was dancing in a great dancehall with a horde of incorporal ghosts.
The ghosts would not attack or do anything other than dance.
But if the character could not anticipate the dance moves, they would be overrun by dancing ghosts, costing them 1 failed death save.
Basically it was Perform(dance) vs death save, once per round.

Suddently they were very interested in finishing the fight quickly, and the bard felt like a superhero.

[verbatim]

Have them run into an encounter where they end up aligned with a rival adventuring party that is basically expy's of the players. Make it clear that it's their counterparts but better.

The fight is hard and gritty and if they play wrong or unlucky someone could from either party could die.

If everyone from both parties comes out alive at the end have a future BBEG annihilate the higher level party.

I did this in Curse of Strahd (not really intending it to be a humbling experience but it could easily be reworked to be one.)

My level 5 party and their level 8 counterparts killed a lot of werewolves. Later, Strahd cornered the level 8's and turned them into the Vampire Spawn that are found in Vallaki. Showing him destroy the higher level party in a fortune teller sequence also served as a cool way to introduce an idea the CoS subreddit has where he has significant combat boons that can be removed by restoring the three Fanes.

[HomeBrewStu]

Just wondering how you are getting on with this?

[Pex]

I'd like to know what you mean by "too confident". It's not the DM's job to teach players a lesson. DMs can Rocks Fall Everyone Dies whenever they want. PCs are allowed to be powerful. They are supposed to be powerful. Players are supposed to enjoy their characters being powerful. That's the game. Being powerful is defined as capable of defeating the bad guys appropriate and commensurate with their level. If they can handle a little bit above their paygrade that's fine too. When the players are reminiscing their enjoyment of defeating the latest BBEG the DM should not be sitting there in silent seething anger.

[Rukelnikov]

Squads of low level casters capable of casting Magic Missile are usually useful, a squad of 8 people everyone casting MM at the same target is 24d4+24 no attack roll, no save...

EDIT: And those would be CR 1/4 or 1/2 creatures, so its not gonna mean a lot of XP for the party

[DruidAlanon]

You could run anything that ends up with them getting captured and possibly losing some loot. My favorite thing to do is create NPC villain characters using class levels. They'd need to be a few levels higher than the party.

That'd be my suggestion as well. Also consider:

1) Multiple encounters. This usually fixes the issue on its own. Just make sure they don't fully rest before the next encounter, and repeat that for a few days (in game). Disrupt their long rest (this can be done with animal messengers from an evil druid that wake them up constantly). You can continue sending relatively easy beasts that slowly tear them apart because they can never fully recover, until they have to fight the druid himself half-dead and exhausted.

2) A team of spellcasters that can stack effects. Amnestic came up with good suggestions. Make them spread in the map and use combinations of difficult terrain, ranged attacks, and AoEs. Start the encounter at 600ft with 1-2 fighters with sharpshooter. You get the point.

3) Rely more on encounters where they have to deal with AoEs, ranged attacks, spellcasters and fly rather than 2-3 beefy brutes with a good attack bonus and HP.

3) Soft-counter them: add specific immunities, use counterspell and dispel magic more, heat metal, make them blind/deaf during combat (e.g. sleet storm, darkness, etc) etc.