Casters without Casting?

[Drakevarg]

I'd like to preface this little thought experiment by saying I have absolutely no intention of actually doing this. Not directly, anyway. It's relevant to a little homebrew side project I have going, and I'm reconsidering how casters should work. And the aspect of this I'm musing on is, what happens to class balance if you take a caster class and just... give them no spells?

So for instance a bard still gets bardic performance, witches still get hexes, sorcerers still have their bloodline powers, but they can't cast actual spells. Except cantrips. Obviously this is a significant downgrade no matter how you shake it, but how much so? Would they immediately plummet to being barely better than an NPC class, or would they actually remain competitive with some of the lesser martial classes? I haven't a clue, but I'm sure somebody does, so I'd like to ask.

As a follow-up question, if you were to take the plunge and follow this line of thought, how would you buff these classes (without giving them spells) to remain in step with their party members?

[Rynjin]

It depends on the character. Full casters become worse than NPC classes; Adept is now stronger than them.

6-casters become roughly Rogue-tier; pretty much worthless in combat, and lacking much of their utility outside of it besides skills.

4-casters...honestly don't lose much, I frequently forget I have spells on Paladin for instance.

Buffing them? Full casters are unsalvageable. Most of their class features are based around supplementing and bolstering casting.

6-casters? Giving them all the Full BaB/d10 package is a decent patch for some of them and makes them roughly Barbarian tier. So playable at least, though not perfect.

4-casters? Just tell them they have to take one of the many archetypes that trades out their casting entirely for other benefits, and they get it for free.

[Darg]

You can give them an ability that allows them to trade spell slots for a bonus on attacks, saving throws, and checks equal to the level of slot expended. Allow them to use their casting stat modifier for all damage rolls. Cantrip DC scales at half class level.

A caster with a spellbook can use the book to increase the range and area of their cantrips and any spell-like abilities by 2x

A spontaneous conversion caster (like cleric or druid) can cast their converted spell at 24 hr duration at +5 caster level once per day for each spell level as a spell-like.

A spontaneous caster can spend a full-round action or increase the casting time by 1 round casting a cantrip or spell-like to increase the DC by 2.

Just some thoughts. I'm not entirely familiar with pathfinder as my main expertise is 3.5

[Kurald Galain]

would they actually remain competitive with some of the lesser martial classes?
Several of them remain competitive.

It depends on what combat options a class gets. The druid and hunter still have an animal companion that deals decent damage, and in particular the hunter has good class abilities that boost it (and himself) further. Summoner retains his eidolon, and can summon without using spells.

Magus remains capable in melee, because of his arcane pool and arcana abilities; likewise Inquisitor because of his bane ability and utility powers; and Investigator with his studied target and amazing skill rolls. Paladin and bloodrager never needed their spellcasting to be effective. Mesmerist can build himself for melee (with painful stare) and still have off-action support; bard is not stellar at melee but everybody loves having inspire courage around, and bards are still great at skills. Alchemist still deals decent damage with bombs and mutagen.

So overall it's not so bad, and most of the above are probably on par with the fighter, u-rogue, or u-monk. Of course full casters are out of luck, except the druid.

[Satinavian]

You seem to be talking about Pathfinder, not D&D proper. This is quite important as PF has more class features for casters that are not spells and a very long list of powerful and well rounded 6-level casters.
The latter might even work in a group with normal martials. They will still be significantly worse though.

Another problem is that many of the martial classes have archetypes that basically get one or two of the class features of the caster classes. That means that the martials can do the things that casters can do with better bab, more HP and other class features on top.

The weakest martial (non-NPC) classes in PF are not that weak either. I can't think of one that would be on the same level as a full caster without spells. I mean, you could try something like druid (with shapechange and animal companion) vs. Cavalier and call it close enough, but most casters can't even match that without spells.

Edit : ah, just noticed the tag.

[pabelfly]

So 3.5 has a Paladin variant that trades off spell progression for a bonus feat related to being a Paladin every time you would otherwise gain a spell level, and Ranger has something similar. You could do something similar to that here: fourth-level spellcasters can trade spells off for four bonus feats. With sixth and ninth-level casters, I'd start the tradeoff from when they get their second spell level, just so people don't simply dip classes for the free feat. Not sure how much a cleric would still be a cleric without any spellcasting, for example, but it could work.

[Drakevarg]

The starting point I've been musing on is essentially to take these now-incomplete classes and sort of... slap them together into something a bit more viable. So for instance giving the Mesmerist some semblance of Psychic disciplines, giving the Spiritualist something like Oracle revelations, giving Druids access to Witch hexes, mushing Inquisitor and Anti/Paladin together, et cetera.

The other idea I had was "charging" cantrips. Making spellcasting take multiple rounds is typically frowned upon, but as an auxiliary feature to something a bit sturdier I don't think there's anything wrong with being able to spend a few rounds juicing a 0-level spell into a 3rd-level spell. It's still really only the beginnings of an idea, though.

[Elvensilver]

Not sure how much a cleric would still be a cleric without any spellcasting, for example, but it could work.

Hey, no discounting the cleric! Their deities would still grant them something for their faith - they get Channel Energy and abilities from their domains, as well as some weapon and medium armor proficiency.

At the first few levels before adepts get their better spells, I'm sure clerics are better by virtue of better hit dice, armor, and healing/harming capabilities.

I'd personally take a lot of channel energy feats and if possible invest other ressources in improving your channeling - otherwise, go martial.

Wizards, on the other hand... d6 hit dice, a familar without spell sharing and a few school powers are rough.