Prediction Page, (bring your quatloos, gps, and internets, you'll need them.)

[brian 333]

For 10 quatloos:
MitD and Sunny know each other and are friends. When they meet in a later scene both will stop fighting, or whatever they are doing, to catch up.

For +2 internets and one 1984 interweb:
The Order of the Stick will progress to a finale somewhere besides Kraggor's Gate.

A side bet of 100 gps:
The location of the finale will be Xykon's Astral Fortress, in a kind of mirror battle of the Battle of Azure City, which will show all of the remaining factions, (not the deities themselves) pulling out all the stops to achieve the outcome they desire.

Feel free to put down your bets on these or other predictions. For example, I imagine that Mr.Scruffy, on the Astral Plane, will be 30ft tall. I have not assigned a value to this claim. Yet.

[Kish]

For 10 quatloos:
MitD and Sunny know each other and are friends. When they meet in a later scene both will stop fighting, or whatever they are doing, to catch up.

For +2 internets and one 1984 interweb:
The Order of the Stick will progress to a finale somewhere besides Kraggor's Gate.

A side bet of 100 gps:
The location of the finale will be Xykon's Astral Fortress, in a kind of mirror battle of the Battle of Azure City, which will show all of the remaining factions, (not the deities themselves) pulling out all the stops to achieve the outcome they desire.

Feel free to put down your bets on these or other predictions. For example, I imagine that Mr.Scruffy, on the Astral Plane, will be 30ft tall. I have not assigned a value to this claim. Yet.
I'll take the third bet.

I'd take the first one too if you were betting anything I wanted.

50 gold says Hel's nightcrawler is also not acquainted with the creature in the darkness, not that I expect resolution because I expect to never see it again. When a scary creature acts naive, that's not Rich drawing lines between them and every other scary naive creature; that's just him writing that scary creature as naive.

[Peelee]

I'll take 1 and 3 against brian 333. For number 2, not taking that one, but also Tim Berners-Lee didn't invent the world wide web until 1989. If you want to out up an1984 internet, then its just internet. No web.

Kish, no bet. :smalltongue:

[brian 333]

I'll take 1 and 3 against brian 333. For number 2, not taking that one, but also Tim Berners-Lee didn't invent the world wide web until 1989. If you want to out up an1984 internet, then its just internet. No web.

Kish, no bet. :smalltongue:

Are you saying my interweb is fraudulent? It has a certificate of authenticity!

MitD and Sunny, if some theories are to be believed, both spent time in the Dungeons of Dorukon, at the same time. That they are both friendly and of an apparent equal stage of development makes it likely they would have been friends, had they met. I'll take your quatloos!

[Peelee]

Are you saying my interweb is fraudulent? It has a certificate of authenticity!

MitD and Sunny, if some theories are to be believed, both spent time in the Dungeons of Dorukon, at the same time. That they are both friendly and of an apparent equal stage of development makes it likely they would have been friends, had they met. I'll take your quatloos!

Elan and MitD both spent time in the Dungeon of Dorukan at the same time, and are both friendly and of an apparent equal stage of development. They did not become friends.

[BloodSquirrel]

For 10 quatloos:
MitD and Sunny know each other and are friends. When they meet in a later scene both will stop fighting, or whatever they are doing, to catch up.

For +2 internets and one 1984 interweb:
The Order of the Stick will progress to a finale somewhere besides Kraggor's Gate.

A side bet of 100 gps:
The location of the finale will be Xykon's Astral Fortress, in a kind of mirror battle of the Battle of Azure City, which will show all of the remaining factions, (not the deities themselves) pulling out all the stops to achieve the outcome they desire.

Feel free to put down your bets on these or other predictions. For example, I imagine that Mr.Scruffy, on the Astral Plane, will be 30ft tall. I have not assigned a value to this claim. Yet.

None of these seem likely to me.

1) is a very fan-fic-y type of development. Also, it doesn't make any sense given the timeline as we know it. Sunny and Serini didn't even know that Dorukan was dead when they ran across the order in Dorukan's dungeon, nor seemingly that Xykon was there, and the MitD has only been in the dungeon while being towed around by Xykon.

2) (and by extension 3) Has the problem that, as we understand it, whatever happens at Kraggor's gate, it's going to be the end of The Plan, and thus everything after that is clean-up. Xykon can't take the gate with him to his astral fortress. Redcloak (or whoever else) can't cast the purple seal spell anywhere except at one of the rifts. We're not going to find out what's inside of the rifts at Xykon's astral fortress either.

I can see a very few possibilities here, such as the climax happening inside the rift or something, but overall, trying to move the climax anywhere else sounds like it would be really clunky.

My big bets:
5 cat pictures that Redcloak isn't he one who provides the Dark One's power to seal the rifts.
1 promise to commit seppuku that I will renege on that the MitD turns out to be something more dramatically relevant than just an obscure monster from a forgotten source book somewhere.
2 offers to side with the next person who comes up with a nonsensical interpretation of the comic and then complains about it that the comic isn't going to end with everything wrapped up in a super-neat bow. I expect, in particular, that we aren't going to see some big final end to all conflict between goblinoids and humanoids, but something much more modest, such as a new goblin leader who rejects the Dark One and some limited negotiations between him and the Assurites.

[enq]

One (1) rare Collector's Edition Interweb from 1982. Authentic, no matter lies Peelee spews forth. I bet this on Belkar no longer being Evil when he dies, as per my signature.

[Ruck]

I'd also bet against 1 and 3.


1) is a very fan-fic-y type of development.

That's a good way to put it. The phrase I like to use is the "Wouldn't It Be Cool If" rule: If you can't think of a reason something should be in the story other than "Wouldn't it be cool if...", it shouldn't be in the story.

For #3, the story has already established that there is not actually anything of value in Xykon's astral fortress.

I suppose I could put some money on MitD, since that's what I'm most confident in. You likely know where my money is for species, but if I can get long enough odds on this specific line (the bolded) being involved in his reveal, I'll take them:


I don't speak for anyone but myself, but as specific as I'm willing to get on what I imagine is most likely: There's going to be some point during the final battle where Xykon either orders MitD to attack the good guys and he refuses, or MitD comes out of the shadows to save one of the good guys / stop one of the bad guys from killing them. And per the Protean, Xykon or Redcloak will say "What are you doing, you idiot?! You're one of the bad guys!" And MitD will emerge from the shadows and say "I can change."

[ZhonLord]

A side bet of 100 gps:
The location of the finale will be Xykon's Astral Fortress, in a kind of mirror battle of the Battle of Azure City, which will show all of the remaining factions, (not the deities themselves) pulling out all the stops to achieve the outcome they desire.

I'll take this bet. The only way an astral fortress fight would occur is if xykon's phylactery were in it. But instead Redcloak has the pendant concealed away somewhere so that he still has a way to control xykon.

[Metastachydium]

For +2 internets and one 1984 interweb:
The Order of the Stick will progress to a finale somewhere besides Kraggor's Gate.

Damn it, Brian! I want that interweb, but I happen to be absolutely certain the finale won't have much to do with Kraggor's Gate, whatever that is.


A side bet of 100 gps:
The location of the finale will be Xykon's Astral Fortress, in a kind of mirror battle of the Battle of Azure City, which will show all of the remaining factions, (not the deities themselves) pulling out all the stops to achieve the outcome they desire.

Feel free to put down your bets on these or other predictions. For example, I imagine that Mr.Scruffy, on the Astral Plane, will be 30ft tall. I have not assigned a value to this claim. Yet.

You're on.


50 gold says Hel's nightcrawler is also not acquainted with the creature in the darkness, not that I expect resolution because I expect to never see it again. When a scary creature acts naive, that's not Rich drawing lines between them and every other scary naive creature; that's just him writing that scary creature as naive.

Two Melos-minted silver staters (that you'll probably have to steal from a museum yourself) say that the Likable Death Worm would, however, recognize what MitD is if it saw him. LDW is very insightful!



5 cat pictures that Redcloak isn't he one who provides the Dark One's power to seal the rifts.

I'd take that, but I don't want cat pictures. Do you have something with BIRDIES on offer instead?


1 promise to commit seppuku that I will renege on that the MitD turns out to be something more dramatically relevant than just an obscure monster from a forgotten source book somewhere.

Eh, why not! (I tend to agree, but I like the terms).


2 offers to side with the next person who comes up with a nonsensical interpretation of the comic and then complains about it that the comic isn't going to end with everything wrapped up in a super-neat bow. I expect, in particular, that we aren't going to see some big final end to all conflict between goblinoids and humanoids, but something much more modest, such as a new goblin leader who rejects the Dark One and some limited negotiations between him and the Assurites.

Very tempting. Can I counteroffer 2 supportive posts in such a nonsensical debate if what you expect, in particular, specifically happens as you expect it? I like my chances there.


I suppose I could put some money on MitD, since that's what I'm most confident in. You likely know where my money is for species, but if I can get long enough odds on this specific line (the bolded) being involved in his reveal, I'll take them:

Okay, man. That thing you quoted? It's the very first argument in support of the Protean that I actually like.

[Ruck]

Okay, man. That thing you quoted? It's the very first argument in support of the Protean that I actually like.

That's the first? Geez, after all that work I put into making a thorough case on the evidence and the needs of the story.

[Provengreil]

I'll repeat my prediction from one of the comic discussions, cleaned up into a proper prediction:

Roy's plan to slip past the stasis'd monsters works, and they end up fighting Team Evil at the room with Serini's Gate. Team Evil will be at least somewhat drained of magic due to Xykon being antsy about killing things while they speedrun the gauntlet, which will be their chance. It will be framed as a bookend to when Roy first kicked in Xykon's door back in the day, with The Order of the Stick ready to rumble in the back and a field of monsters in between.

Side bets:

-This is the scene where MitD is revealed. If my main bet is correct this is too easy to guess, so the actual bet is that the monster kills Belkar.

[Ruck]

I'll repeat my prediction from one of the comic discussions, cleaned up into a proper prediction:

Roy's plan to slip past the stasis'd monsters works, and they end up fighting Team Evil at the room with Serini's Gate. Team Evil will be at least somewhat drained of magic due to Xykon being antsy about killing things while they speedrun the gauntlet, which will be their chance. It will be framed as a bookend to when Roy first kicked in Xykon's door back in the day, with The Order of the Stick ready to rumble in the back and a field of monsters in between.

Side bets:

-This is the scene where MitD is revealed. If my main bet is correct this is too easy to guess, so the actual bet is that the monster kills Belkar.

Are you betting that MitD will be revealed in the final battle? Given how long that scene will probably be, that seems too broad for anyone to book it, as well as being a near-certainty.

Are you saying the MitD will kill Belkar? I will certainly book a bet against that happening.

[enq]

That's the first? Geez, after all that work I put into making a thorough case on the evidence and the needs of the story.

Sometimes pundits need to use puns to win their audience.

[Sir_Norbert]

Here are my predictions for how it's all going to go down.

We've all been bamboozled into thinking Book 7 is going to be a similar length to the others. There are actually no more than a dozen strips left to go.

Next strip will be the first ever 5-pager, and it will be an epic battle between the Order and Team Evil with every spell in the book being cast. It will end with Xykon casting Meteor Swarm and Haley holding up a mirror that reflects the spell back onto him, destroying him for good.

Redcloak and Lien will fall in love and live happily ever after.

The MitD will be revealed to be a Rubix Cube, with all the labels except two yellow ones having worn off, giving the appearance of eyes. There will be no explanation for how it walks and talks and did all the things in the Big Scenes except Rule of Cool.

The Order will discover that they need to travel to the South Pole to deal with Xykon's twin brother Nokyx. However, Tarquin has conquered all the countries around the equator, so they have to deal with him once and for all. It will be revealed that Elan's secret plan was to summon a giant cannon and shoot bees at Tarquin. It fails because he goes indoors. Then Thog reappears and sits on him, squashing him to death.

When the Order reach the South Pole, it's revealed that on Xykon's death, the spells holding his astral fortress in the air failed, and it has been plummeting to earth ever since. In the second-last strip, it crashes, killing everyone except Belkar, who survives because he's just that badass. (The Oracle's prophecies were just him messing with us.) However, Belkar then has to float in space for the rest of eternity.

The last strip will be all black panels, except for one panel showing a chunk of space rock with the word "peaches" carved on it. We can then pass the time until Rich starts his next work by discussing the implications thereof.

[Peelee]

The MitD will be revealed to be a Rubix Cube

Rubik's Cube. It's a cube invented by Erno Rubik.

[Kish]

A million gold says none of the things Norbert just posted will happen.

[Ruck]

Rubik's Cube. It's a cube invented by Erno Rubik.

I dunno, given the rest of the prediction, it might well be a "Rubix Cube," whatever that is.


A million gold says none of the things Norbert just posted will happen.

I don't think you could find a bookie who would even give you a parlay on all of those things not happening.

[Peelee]

The peaches rock intrigues me.


I dunno, given the rest of the prediction, it might well be a "Rubix Cube," whatever that is.

Its just a thing that bugs me. Like people who say "reesey" in Reese's Pieces.

[Sir_Norbert]

You know, I thought of correcting that after I posted, but I decided it was funnier to leave it in.

[brian 333]

I bet 2cp that SirNorbert wins the 'Best Fan Fiction In A Forum Discussion Thread, for 2023.'

The Fannie Award will then be displayed on a mantlepiece that he installs on an otherwise empty wall because he has no fireplace in his efficiency apartment.

[Mic_128]

I wager an exciting picture of my kneecap that not only does the last gate get destroyed, but that they end up fleeing to Xykon's astral fortress to survive the Snarl's escape and immediate thrashing around.

I also throw in two chocolate eggs left over from Easter that Belkar ends up dying to save someone else, possibly either Durkon, V or someone he's had limited-to-no interaction before.

I bet three carefully thought-out haikus that they end up going to the planet in the rift.

[BloodSquirrel]

I'm sorely tempted to take all of the worst predictions here, along with a lot of this forum's other most bizarre predictions and interpretations, and try to mash them together into an outline for the ending of the comic.

[brian 333]

I'm sorely tempted to take all of the worst predictions here, along with a lot of this forum's other most bizarre predictions and interpretations, and try to mash them together into an outline for the ending of the comic.

I'll bet Mic 128's carefully thought out haikus that you quickly discover that it's too much work and abandon the idea after brainstorming the project for one point four minutes.

Side bet of one cheesy limerick: you have already done the above.

[BloodSquirrel]

I'll bet Mic 128's carefully thought out haikus that you quickly discover that it's too much work and abandon the idea after brainstorming the project for one point four minutes.

Side bet of one cheesy limerick: you have already done the above.

If you want to help, you can go post some more stuff about Serini in the main thread. Her being a secret genius who actually has everything under control will definitely be a part of it.

[Metastachydium]

That's the first? Geez, after all that work I put into making a thorough case on the evidence and the needs of the story.

Look, I don't spend much time in that thread because it's mostly just people yelling at each other about the same four critters all the time. And Protean always struck me as a bit of a cop-out.


Here are my predictions for how it's all going to go down.

We've all been bamboozled into thinking Book 7 is going to be a similar length to the others. There are actually no more than a dozen strips left to go.

Next strip will be the first ever 5-pager, and it will be an epic battle between the Order and Team Evil with every spell in the book being cast. It will end with Xykon casting Meteor Swarm and Haley holding up a mirror that reflects the spell back onto him, destroying him for good.

Redcloak and Lien will fall in love and live happily ever after.

The MitD will be revealed to be a Rubix Cube, with all the labels except two yellow ones having worn off, giving the appearance of eyes. There will be no explanation for how it walks and talks and did all the things in the Big Scenes except Rule of Cool.

The Order will discover that they need to travel to the South Pole to deal with Xykon's twin brother Nokyx. However, Tarquin has conquered all the countries around the equator, so they have to deal with him once and for all. It will be revealed that Elan's secret plan was to summon a giant cannon and shoot bees at Tarquin. It fails because he goes indoors. Then Thog reappears and sits on him, squashing him to death.

When the Order reach the South Pole, it's revealed that on Xykon's death, the spells holding his astral fortress in the air failed, and it has been plummeting to earth ever since. In the second-last strip, it crashes, killing everyone except Belkar, who survives because he's just that badass. (The Oracle's prophecies were just him messing with us.) However, Belkar then has to float in space for the rest of eternity.

The last strip will be all black panels, except for one panel showing a chunk of space rock with the word "peaches" carved on it. We can then pass the time until Rich starts his next work by discussing the implications thereof.

…
…
…
…


Rubik's Cube. It's a cube invented by Erno Rubik.

[The voice of the PEDANT.] Ernő, in actual fact.


I dunno, given the rest of the prediction, it might well be a "Rubix Cube," whatever that is.

I'm sure Kraggor's Gate has a few of those lying around. And Xyklon (the Consequential) definitely owns one.


The peaches rock intrigues me.

Let's just say, you're not the only one.


I wager an exciting picture of my kneecap that not only does the last gate get destroyed, but that they end up fleeing to Xykon's astral fortress to survive the Snarl's escape and immediate thrashing around.

It's on, but only if it's an X-ray picture. (And should you somehow win, be prepared not to get anything anyway. I'm a FLOWER.)


I bet three carefully thought-out haikus that they end up going to the planet in the rift.

I take that, and throw in a sloppily made tanka.

[Peelee]

[The voice of the PEDANT.] Ernő, in actual fact.

That's what i said, just with an American accent.

[Metastachydium]

That's what i said, just with an American accent.

Accent? Heh. (But really, it's a completely different phoneme.)

[Peelee]

Accent? Heh. (But really, it's a completely different phoneme.)

Well, yes, but I think I'm funny.

[Precure]

The last gate is under Kraagor's statue.

Snarl's intelligent and the mastermind behind Dark One.

Belkar won't die and won't go to jail.

MitD's species is going to be plot important.

Vaarsuvius will return to their family and make amends.

Xykon will return to being a normal human.

[Mic_128]

Xykon will return to being a normal human.

Huh... I know Rich hasn't been sticking super close to the game rules, but is there anything in the rules that mentions how to reverse something like that?

[Kish]

Sure. Kill him, smash his phylactery, have a cleric of at least level [how many decades Xykon's been dead] cast Resurrection or True Resurrection. Boom, done.

[brian 333]

The last gate is under Kraagor's statue.

Snarl's intelligent and the mastermind behind Dark One.

Belkar won't die and won't go to jail.

MitD's species is going to be plot important.

Vaarsuvius will return to their family and make amends.

Xykon will return to being a normal human.

What are you willing to bet on these predictions? If this is a parlay, what odds are you giving?

[Metastachydium]

Sure. Kill him, smash his phylactery, have a cleric of at least level [how many decades Xykon's been dead] cast Resurrection or True Resurrection. Boom, done.

Unless he's past his expiration date natural lifespan, which is, to be frank, not unlikely.

[Peelee]

Unless he's past his expiration date natural lifespan, which is, to be frank, not unlikely.

He didn't die of natural causes yet, so at the very least hes got a few hours. Assuming he got lich'd on birthday eve.

[SlashDash]

Going over some things posted already -

For 10 quatloos:
MitD and Sunny know each other and are friends. When they meet in a later scene both will stop fighting, or whatever they are doing, to catch up.

I'll easily bet against this. This would reduce O-Chul's role in all of this - since he is the person MitD is trying to protect.


The Order of the Stick will progress to a finale somewhere besides Kraggor's Gate.

I agree. There's no way we are close to the end. There are so many open threads left to deal with.




A side bet of 100 gps:
The location of the finale will be Xykon's Astral Fortress, in a kind of mirror battle of the Battle of Azure City, which will show all of the remaining factions, (not the deities themselves) pulling out all the stops to achieve the outcome they desire.

I don't think so. The only thing I could see as a foreshadow for this, is that the Monster said he might have been in the astral plane so maybe that's a hint he can guide them?

But I think considering we've seen there's a world behind the portal that it's likely they'll actually step through it at some point.



The last gate is under Kraagor's statue.

I don't think under the statue specifically, or otherwise Redcloak would have seen it. I do think the fact that Redcloak moved the statue when he fought Durkon would come to play.



Snarl's intelligent and the mastermind behind Dark One.

Betting everything against this. I know Redcloak not talking to the Dark One feels like a foreshadow for something like this, but I don't see the point for this to happen because it nullifies Thor's plan.



Belkar won't die and won't go to jail.

We got full confirmation on his death multiple times. Belkar started off as too evil to be allowed to just walk around even if he has a change of heart. The author clearly cares about morality as a major focal point of the story. Killing Belkar - while him showing some remorse would be the best way to end his story. It would also make his death be actual redemption as opposed to Miko - And you know him being to rub that in her face in the afterlife is the best happy ending he can get.



Vaarsuvius will return to their family and make amends.

They clearly care about their family, but I don't see their story ending if they don't continue making restitution to the black dragons. Unless maybe they'll get the gods as a thank you to revive them all?



Xykon will return to being a normal human.
Hard disagree.

[SlashDash]

My predictions :

* Hel will send a vampire to the north pole. The vampire will try to join team evil and will try to rush Xykon to do the ritual (or some other variation that Hel will offer). This will be Hel's way of trying to get the gods to panic and reset the universe giving her victory.

Redcloak will object because this will put the goblins in danger somehow or make him realize that Xykon would never allow him to have his Goblin nation. This is what will push him over the edge to switch sides.


* Miron, Tarquin or both will show up as well. There is 0 percent chance that we're done with them after the cliffhanger in the desert.

* Roy is likely to come up with a plan to intentionally force or trick the IFCC into wasting their last summon of V. Perhaps the idea is to get them to convince Sabin or Qarr to help them somehow (truthfully or by trickery). Or maybe get them closer to whatever artifact they are going to use. Either way, it will be revealed as intentionally done by the heroes.

* Xykon will be destroyed by Roy - not turn human again. Then they'll release Lirian and Dorukon. Being that both are epic divine and arcane casters, it's possible they'll do something with the gate.

* Redcloak will die. The last time we see him will be him going into the afterlife and finally meeting the dark one. Maybe his family too?

* Hinjo is likely to show up as well - Belkar will die protecting him somehow.
Hinjo in the epilogue will sign a peace treaty with Jirix.

* Less likely but possible? Durkon will end up taking care of Mr Scruffy as a final act of friendship between him and Belkar and the "debt" will be considered paid.

* The final conflict won't be with the final gate or Xykon's fortress. Likely it will be on the other side of the rift.

* Something has to force Serini to tell the story of how the original party fought and split up. There's no way we'll never learn that - especially after Girard's message and how Roy acted to it. I'm not sure what could do that though.

Maybe Kraggor is still alive and would become an antagonist at some point like Valgav? Farfetched I know. Still wondering about the how.

* Likely the epilogue includes some new agreements between the gods. Not just Dark One getting a fair seat - but also the Hel\Thor bet has to end one way or another. Part of me wonders if maybe they will just turn the world beyond the gate into a habitable place? Maybe the eastern gods are still there? Then Hel maybe can go there and since it's not the same world anymore the bet is off on the other side?

[Metastachydium]

* Miron, Tarquin or both will show up as well. There is 0 percent chance that we're done with them after the cliffhanger in the desert.

Well, if you ignore the whole thing with BRitF ending on the note of "yeah, we're done with Tarquin" and the little issue that for all we know, Miron might be deader than dead now…


Dorukon

Unlikely, whoever that is.


The last time we see him will be him going into the afterlife and finally meeting the dark one. Maybe his family too?

That would be nice, in actual fact.


* Something has to force Serini to tell the story of how the original party fought and split up. There's no way we'll never learn that - especially after Girard's message and how Roy acted to it. I'm not sure what could do that though.

I mean, that's practically author-confirmed truth.


Maybe Kraggor

Unlikely, whoever that is.


is still alive and would become an antagonist at some point like Valgav? Farfetched I know. Still wondering about the how.

And if you mean Kraagor, we all know he was his own statue and is therefore destroyed utterly now.


Maybe the eastern gods are still there?

…and one of them is Redcloak's niece, also known as Roy Greenhilt.

[Peelee]

Ya know what, ill place a new bet out there. 200 gold on Tarquin being defeated offscreen probably but not necessarily by background characters (eg Captain Amun-Zora or Enor and Gannji), but certainly not by the Order or Elan.

[Mic_128]

Redcloak will object because this will put the goblins in danger somehow or make him realize that Xykon would never allow him to have his Goblin nation. This is what will push him over the edge to switch sides.
Aside from already having that nation, assuming the rift hasn't eaten it, Redcloak knows Xykon isn't going to let him go happily ever after. He basically used Xykon's ability to snuff him as a reason to accept the Mortron's payment.


* Xykon will be destroyed by Roy - not turn human again. Then they'll release Lirian and Dorukon. Being that both are epic divine and arcane casters, it's possible they'll do something with the gate.

Ooh, I could see that. I honestly keep forgetting they're not dead and just 'incredibly indisposed'.


* Something has to force Serini to tell the story of how the original party fought and split up. There's no way we'll never learn that - especially after Girard's message and how Roy acted to it. I'm not sure what could do that though.

We already know what happened (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

[Ruck]

Ooh, I could see that. I honestly keep forgetting they're not dead and just 'incredibly indisposed'.

Well, no; they are dead, it's their souls that haven't been allowed to proceed to the afterlife.

[Peelee]

..... Five gold says Lirian and Dorukan are dead.

[Precure]

What are you willing to bet on these predictions? If this is a parlay, what odds are you giving?

6.66 percent of my remained lifespan.

[Ruck]

The last gate is under Kraagor's statue.

Snarl's intelligent and the mastermind behind Dark One.

Belkar won't die and won't go to jail.

MitD's species is going to be plot important.

Xykon will return to being a normal human.


My predictions :

* Hel will send a vampire to the north pole. The vampire will try to join team evil and will try to rush Xykon to do the ritual (or some other variation that Hel will offer). This will be Hel's way of trying to get the gods to panic and reset the universe giving her victory.

Redcloak will object because this will put the goblins in danger somehow or make him realize that Xykon would never allow him to have his Goblin nation. This is what will push him over the edge to switch sides.


* Miron, Tarquin or both will show up as well. There is 0 percent chance that we're done with them after the cliffhanger in the desert.

I'll bet against all of these.


Vaarsuvius will return to their family and make amends.

I'm split on this one. I don't think it will happen, but I think it's certainly possible it could. Since I don't know what V's quest for redemption will look like-- or even if V survives the final battle, honestly-- I'm not particularly willing to rule out any possibilities.


* Hinjo is likely to show up as well - Belkar will die protecting him somehow.

* Something has to force Serini to tell the story of how the original party fought and split up. There's no way we'll never learn that - especially after Girard's message and how Roy acted to it. I'm not sure what could do that though.

These two are practically guaranteed to happen. I believe Rich has more or less confirmed the latter. And the former?

"I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."

[Mic_128]

Well, no; they are dead, it's their souls that haven't been allowed to proceed to the afterlife.

Right, I probably should have said "gone" instead of dead.

[Ruck]

Right, I probably should have said "gone" instead of dead.

Fair enough. I still think they would need a True Resurrection to come back-- if Lirian hasn't been dead for too long-- and thus for it to be "possible they'll do something with the gate." In other words, I don't think they're going to be active participants in any of the endgame.

[Kish]

Barring the rest of this book explicitly including Durkon losing multiple levels, it would be trivial for Rich to have Xykon's defeat be immediately followed by Durkon having access to 9th-level spells, so "will take True Resurrection" doesn't equal "won't happen."

Not that I think anything nearly as pedestrian as "the original Gates are restored" will happen.

[Ruck]

Barring the rest of this book explicitly including Durkon losing multiple levels, it would be trivial for Rich to have Xykon's defeat be immediately followed by Durkon having access to 9th-level spells, so "will take True Resurrection" doesn't equal "won't happen."

Not that I think anything nearly as pedestrian as "the original Gates are restored" will happen.

Not impossible, no. As much as anything I'm basing my statement on two things:

1)Rich's distaste for the spell-- which is only a small part of my reasoning, as I don't think Rich's reasons for not liking the spell will necessarily be relevant in a denouement.
2)More importantly, I think the story will be cheapened if people besides the Order and their allies are the ones who come in and fix everything/anything.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Fannie Award will then be displayed on a mantlepiece .. ... right next to the hemorrhoid award.

Elan will get a happy ending.

[Mic_128]

Fair enough. I still think they would need a True Resurrection to come back-- if Lirian hasn't been dead for too long-- and thus for it to be "possible they'll do something with the gate." In other words, I don't think they're going to be active participants in any of the endgame.

Is there any reason they couldn't communicate with their souls while they're still in the gem?

[Ruck]

Is there any reason they couldn't communicate with their souls while they're still in the gem?

I'm not familiar enough with the rules to say.

I will say I've warmed up a little to them at least being consulted somehow if that's possible, likely on how the Gates were built. Mostly this comes from thinking that it's entirely possible Rich chose Lirian and Dorukan specifically as the first two to be killed with a future reason in mind. Or maybe he chose them because they were lovers, or maybe he made them lovers to add to that part of their story.

Maybe, though, he chose them to take the idea of any of other Gates' guardians asking them to rebuild their Gate off the table.

[Liquor Box]

I reckon that if I covered every bet in this thread, I'd come out well ahead.

[Peelee]

I reckon that if I covered every bet in this thread, I'd come out well ahead.

I will not bet against you here. :smallwink:

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe, though, he chose them to take the idea of any of other Gates' guardians asking them to rebuild their Gate off the table. Three electrum pieces bet on that being at least part of why they are off the table. Nice analysis. :smallsmile:

[brian 333]

... right next to the hemorrhoid award.

Elan will get a happy ending.

Until this post I was unaware that Elan's happy ending was contingent on the actions of a reader. Now it is so completely obvious that I wonder why it has not been guessed before.

The only way this can work, though, is if the trophy sports hundreds of tiny tattoos.

[enq]

Until this post I was unaware that Elan's happy ending was contingent on the actions of a reader. Now it is so completely obvious that I wonder why it has not been guessed before.

Eh... still isn't obvious to me, unless Rich is betting on it and will rig the story to win the bet.

[Synesthesy]

My prediction are:

1) Belkar won't die, because the Oracle was wrong. For reasons important for the story

2) Sooner or later this thread will become a huge discussion about a single prediction (probably about Banjo being a real god)

3) In the last strips we'll se Elan's and Hailey marriage, and Belkar will bake the cake

4) Tarquin will appear in this last book, but still will be defeated off panel by the women he wanted to marry (I don't remember her name)

5) Both Xykon and Redcloak will die - but Redcloak's dream will be fulfilled, with the help of O-Chul, and he'll know that in his last moment

6) Sunny will have some nice punchlines with MitD, and they'll be friends

7) The jokes will be even funnier strip after strip

[Peelee]

100 gold on "Belkar dies".



4) Tarquin will appear in this last book, but still will be defeated off panel by the women he wanted to marry (I don't remember her name)
Bolded for emphasis.

Ya know what, ill place a new bet out there. 200 gold on Tarquin being defeated offscreen probably but not necessarily by background characters (eg Captain Amun-Zora or Enor and Gannji), but certainly not by the Order or Elan.

[Metastachydium]

My prediction are:

1) Belkar won't die, because the Oracle was wrong. For reasons important for the story

I wanted to express my disagreement, but the end of the world is known to occasionally affect the quality of such prophecies (https://mountaincomics.com/comic/mt1183/), so…

[brian 333]

100 gold on "Belkar dies".

I'm going to put another 100 gp on Peelee's side of this bet.

If Peelee does not want me ruining the odds on any possible return, I will make it a side bet that Belkar dies trying to save someone else.

If that lacks enough specificity, then:

60 gp for Roy
50 gp for Vaarsuvius
50 gp for Durkon
60 gp for Mr. Scruffy
40 gp for Generic Commoners

[Ruck]

I'm going to put another 100 gp on Peelee's side of this bet.

If Peelee does not want me ruining the odds on any possible return, I will make it a side bet that Belkar dies trying to save someone else.

If that lacks enough specificity, then:

60 gp for Roy
50 gp for Vaarsuvius
50 gp for Durkon
60 gp for Mr. Scruffy
40 gp for Generic Commoners

What kind of odds can I get on Hinjo?

[Peelee]

If Peelee does not want me ruining the odds on any possible return

Have at it!

[brian 333]

What kind of odds can I get on Hinjo?

For or against? I'd bet against him dying to save Hinjo, any amount, in favor of him accidentally saving Hinjo while trying to save Mr. Scruffy, then being embarrassed by the adulation he receives for being a hero.

[Ruck]

For or against? I'd bet against him dying to save Hinjo, any amount, in favor of him accidentally saving Hinjo while trying to save Mr. Scruffy, then being embarrassed by the adulation he receives for being a hero.

For, in my case. That line from the Don't Split the Party bonus strip has to come into play at some point.

Your theory is interesting, but I feel like there's not enough time in the story to fit in that beat and then still have him die another way.

[Lord Torath]

4) Tarquin will appear in this last book, but still will be defeated off panel by the women he wanted to marry (I don't remember her name)Spelling note for a non-native English speaker: woman is singular, women is plural.

Personally, I like the idea that Amun-Zora gathers up the rest of Tarquin's unwilling fiances (Jenella and Mandy at the very least (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html)) and forms them into an elite squad that takes him down!

On the betting front: 1 x-ray of the hardware in my leg that the fact that the Quinton only agreed to help Team Evil while "behind the doors in this canyon" (panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html)) will be significant.

[Metastachydium]

Personally, I like the idea that Amun-Zora gathers up the rest of Tarquin's unwilling fiances (Jenella and Mandy at the very least (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html)) and forms them into an elite squad that takes him down!

Hm. What would you say the odds of zombie Penelope shambling into the scene are, for the beautiful symmetry of it (unwilling brides attack of their own accord; the willing wife against her will!)?


On the betting front: 1 x-ray of the hardware in my leg that the fact that the Quinton only agreed to help Team Evil while "behind the doors in this canyon" (panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html)) will be significant.

I'll take that. Two pretty petals say not much will come of the quinton's mislabelling Xykon as a humanoid (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1266.html) either.

[ZhonLord]

I bet 10 gold that of the possible obscure talents that will save the day, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1268.html) it's going to be O-Chul's beekeeping deterring Oona's buzzing swarmers.

[brian 333]

I bet 10 gold that of the possible obscure talents that will save the day, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1268.html) it's going to be O-Chul's beekeeping deterring Oona's buzzing swarmers.

This is too good to not be true. I bet my grandfather's military boot heel that went to three oceans during WW2 that the beekeeping thing plays out as described.

[KorvinStarmast]

My prediction:

Elan will die saving Haley's life ( that gives him a happy ending since he is saving the life of his loved one and that makes him a Hero with a capital H) ... Roy and Haley get married and have a half a dozen children...

[Ruck]

My prediction:

Elan will die saving Haley's life ( that gives him a happy ending since he is saving the life of his loved one and that makes him a Hero with a capital H) ... Roy and Haley get married and have a half a dozen children...

BRB, I need to borrow Hilgya's cart (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1114.html) so I can load up against this one.

[Kish]

My prediction:

Elan will die saving Haley's life ( that gives him a happy ending since he is saving the life of his loved one and that makes him a Hero with a capital H) ... Roy and Haley get married and have a half a dozen children...
A hundred gold says Elan will get a classically happy ending, not a classically tragic ending such as you've just described. Or to put it another way: that he will end the comic alive and also with no indications that he's going to die particularly soon after it ends.

Fifty gold says there will never be any indication that Roy has thought of Haley in a romantic context, ever, in his life.

[Mic_128]

I bet 10 gold that of the possible obscure talents that will save the day, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1268.html) it's going to be O-Chul's beekeeping deterring Oona's buzzing swarmers.

I was betting (hoping!) that would be the one to save th day, but hadn't thought of how. That's a brilliant idea how it could be useful!

[Metastachydium]

Fifty gold says there will never be any indication that Roy has thought of Haley in a romantic context, ever, in his life.

I could refer to a couple of early strips here, but I feel like it would be unfair. Plus, romantic doesn't really enter those scenes in any way anyhow.


Roy and Haley get married and have a half a dozen children...

Haley does have pretty much that exact hair colour, but there's no way Celia's that unlucky in these affairs (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0269.html).

[Kish]

I could refer to a couple of early strips here, but I feel like it would be unfair. Plus, romantic doesn't really enter those scenes in any way anyhow.
Yes, as you yourself point out, the early-strip scenes you're referring to would not be "unfair" so much as, "Ah, a strip that...doesn't have what I said. There are 1281 of those and counting!"

[Lord Torath]

Yes, as you yourself point out, the early-strip scenes you're referring to would not be "unfair" so much as, "Ah, a strip that...doesn't have what I said. There are 1281 of those and counting!"*strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html)* being the operative word, of course. :smallamused:

On the other hand, he seems rather disturbed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) by the conversation coming through the wall.

[Metastachydium]

Yes, as you yourself point out, the early-strip scenes you're referring to would not be "unfair" so much as, "Ah, a strip that...doesn't have what I said. There are 1281 of those and counting!"

Well, my concessions were being generous insofar as they tacitly let the assumpton that making half a dozen children (which is, at the end of the day, a biological process) and marrying (ultimately a legal formality) had romantic thoughts as a neccessary prerequisite and therefore your comment was neither missing Korvin's point, nor a non sequitur in relation to it slide, but yes.

[Kish]

Korvin is free to take my bet whether one "generously" considers it to have anything to do with what he said or not, if he wants.

(Or anyone else here, of course. Gold pieces only, though!)

[KorvinStarmast]

A hundred gold says Elan will get a classically happy ending, not a classically tragic ending such as you've just described. Or to put it another way: that he will end the comic alive and also with no indications that he's going to die particularly soon after it ends.

Fifty gold says there will never be any indication that Roy has thought of Haley in a romantic context, ever, in his life.


Korvin is free to take my bet whether one "generously" considers it to have anything to do with what he said or not, if he wants.

(Or anyone else here, of course. Gold pieces only, though!) Did you notice how the Harry Potter movies ended, in terms of who married whom?
Did you notice how the Hunger Games movies ended, in terms of who was a couple with kids years later?
What I threw out there is in the same family of curveballs thrown. And Rich throws curveballs. It is one of his talents as a writer.

Rich does some trope subversion. This one - expectations subversion is in the same family - I threw against the wall and a few noodles stuck.

Also, your answer is boring.

The only problem with this SWAG, for my taste, is that it plays slightly into Tarquin's hands in terms of Elan being the Big Damned Hero (Firefly reference to those not among the cognoscenti) of The Order. So that's working against it.

As to who marries and has kids: I was about Roy's age, single, never gonna get married, at about age 28.
Three years later I was married, we had one child and ended up having another.

Life's a funny thing that way.

See also "When Harry Met Sally" as regards long time friends who years later got married ...

[Kish]

Issues with your particular examples (Katniss ended up with the character who she was obviously going to end up with from the first book and I am baffled that anyone ever thought "Team Gale" had a chance of getting off the ground, never mind treating it as some kind of default as you do here; Harry ended up with the first character who expressed romantic interest in him way back in Book 2, and the primary argument I saw predicting him ending up with Hermione was the only thing that could conceivably point to Roy getting involved with Haley, a bluntly expressed "leading ladies go to main heroes") aside, pony up, Korvin. You have many words but there is no gold behind them.

[KorvinStarmast]

pony up, Korvin. You have many words but there is no gold behind them. Lighten up, Francis. (Movie ref you can google if you need to)
I have wasted enough time on this today.

[Metastachydium]

Korvin is free to take my bet whether one "generously" considers it to have anything to do with what he said or not, if he wants.

(Or anyone else here, of course. Gold pieces only, though!)

Oh, my. You really do sound salty over a non-serious comment that was basically in agreement with your (given the bet attached, presumed to be) light-hearted rebuttal of some notion just because it didn't conform to some standard you never held yourself against in the first place.

[Ruck]

Did you notice how the Harry Potter movies ended, in terms of who married whom?
Did you notice how the Hunger Games movies ended, in terms of who was a couple with kids years later?
What I threw out there is in the same family of curveballs thrown. And Rich throws curveballs. It is one of his talents as a writer.

"throws curveballs" is so broad as to not really be an effective lens. On top of that, not all curveballs are equally good storytelling. (If the final dungeon collapsed on the Order right now and killed them all, that would certainly be a curveball, but it wouldn't make for a good story.)

I could also say, "Rich engages in foreshadowing." He has already foreshadowed, rather explicitly, that Elan will have a happy ending. Or I could say, "Rich is a good storyteller because he knows how to make his storytelling developments satisfying," which killing a main character so his girlfriend can get with another main character-- who already has a girlfriend, mind you-- I cannot see would be.


Rich does some trope subversion. This one - expectations subversion is in the same family - I threw against the wall and a few noodles stuck.

This wouldn't be a trope subversion; this would be a character subversion in order to fit the trope of Leading Man and Leading Woman Get Together.


Also, your answer is boring.

And we're back to the Wouldn't It Be Cool If (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25773295&postcount=8) rule.

[Kish]

And we're back to the Wouldn't It Be Cool If (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25773295&postcount=8) rule.
I'm more concerned with the subjectivity of "boring," for my part.

(Korvin's proposals amount to: let's have something happen that doesn't make any sense for the sake of unpredictability--and that's plenty boring, along with its other failings. "Shaggy dog story" is not a compliment.)

[Ruck]

I'm more concerned with the subjectivity of "boring," for my part.

(Korvin's proposals amount to: let's have something happen that doesn't make any sense for the sake of unpredictability--and that's plenty boring, along with its other failings. "Shaggy dog story" is not a compliment.)

No disagreement here; I'll just say that "cool" is also subjective, so in my view I was connecting the dots that "boring" = "not cool" and "cool" = "not boring" (not as entire definitions of either term, but at least in part).

[brian 333]

12 quatloos that nobody bets anything on those arguments whether they ever get to be funny or not.

[Metastachydium]

I could also say, "Rich engages in foreshadowing." He has already foreshadowed, rather explicitly, that Elan will have a happy ending.

Well, yes, but we shouldn't forget that he's also a malicious agent of the Snarl, as evidenced by his familiarity with Fruit Pie, so that happy ending might look a lot unlike what you seem to be picturing. (I'm willing to bet more Melian staters on this, but you'll probably have to steal a few from whoever steals the previous ones from the museum yourself. Just a fair warning.)

[Precure]

Xykon will escape to his secret astral fortress, only to be trapped there forever. He'll slowly turn mad from boredom, blood oath will be unfullilled.

[KorvinStarmast]

No disagreement here; I'll just say that "cool" is also subjective, so in my view I was connecting the dots that "boring" = "not cool" and "cool" = "not boring" (not as entire definitions of either term, but at least in part). You seem to be making some assumptions on what a happy ending looks like.
The Oracle is notoriously cryptic in his responses, so there's a substantial amount of room for what "happy ending" looks like to expand into. One of those options is certainly "Haley and Elan live happily ever after and love each other until death does them part" but that's not the only option.

The hidebound reactions to a bit of thinking outside of the box should not have surprised me.

Xykon will escape to his secret astral fortress, only to be trapped there forever. He'll slowly turn mad from boredom, blood oath will be unfullilled. Xykon has agency. He can go to his fortress, he can leave it. Should boredom confront him, he has the means wander off somewhere - there are so many planes and places to choose from - in order to mitigate any boredom so encountered.

What could trap him there such that he could not leave?

[brian 333]

What could trap him there such that he could not leave?

A shortage of spell slots and a lack of access to a teleportation device.

[Ruck]

You seem to be making some assumptions on what a happy ending looks like.

If thinking "the character explicitly promised a happy ending dies, and then two other characters do something entirely out of character that has not been suggested in any way at all at any point in the story" wouldn't qualify as "a happy ending for Elan" nor makes sense as an ending to this story counts as "making assumptions" and not "basic deductive reasoning from the evidence," then, well, you got me.


The Oracle is notoriously cryptic in his responses, so there's a substantial amount of room for what "happy ending" looks like to expand into. One of those options is certainly "Haley and Elan live happily ever after and love each other until death does them part" but that's not the only option.

This isn't a case for why the specific ending you proposed makes sense. It's just a way of saying "Who knows? Anything could happen!" Sure, I suppose in theory, literally anything could happen. I'll still bet against, say, the entire story turning out to be the dream of an alien child, or the British police showing up at the end to arrest Roy for indiscriminate murder of goblins, because those endings don't make any sense for this story, either.

(Also, I'll add that "Yes-- for you, at least" is about as straightforward as the Oracle has ever been.)


The hidebound reactions to a bit of thinking outside of the box should not have surprised me.

You ever heard the saying "Don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out?"

Your insinuation that the responses to your proposal are just close-minded reactions from people afraid of new ideas aside, I will reiterate, the ending you proposed simply does not make sense for the story and the characters we have seen after all this time. You have not made a case that it makes sense; you've only accused people of being close-minded for pointing out that it doesn't make sense.

[Kish]

The hidebound reactions to a bit of thinking outside of the box should not have surprised me.
Y'might want to consider that people not liking your proposals might simply mean people don't like your proposals and not indicate something negative about those people.

[Precure]

Xykon has agency. He can go to his fortress, he can leave it. Should boredom confront him, he has the means wander off somewhere - there are so many planes and places to choose from - in order to mitigate any boredom so encountered.

What could trap him there such that he could not leave?

Travel between planes or at least Xykon's plane and others could be disconnected due to events relating to the snarl.

[brian 333]

247 quatloos that Elan's happy ending does not involve his death.

5 quatloos that Elan's happy ending involves Elan and Haley going to the world in the rift, becoming 3d via an art upgrade, and begin a new campaign in the new world.

Bonus 5 quatloos that Elan's story ends in a bed surrounded by children and grandchildren who listen to PawPaw Elan tell the story of Uncle Roy Greenhilt and the Blood Oath one last time.

[KorvinStarmast]

5 quatloos that Elan's happy ending involves Elan and Haley going to the world in the rift, becoming 3d via an art upgrade, and begin a new campaign in the new world.
I think that the Giant has either intimated or declared that there will be no sequel to OotS, so I can't get on board with the second half of that.

[Peelee]

I think that the Giant has either intimated or declared that there will be no sequel to OotS, so I can't get on board with the second half of that.

I imagine that theory to be along the same lines as the final strip of Calvin and Hobbes. A new adventure doesn't mean a sequel.

[brian 333]

I think that the Giant has either intimated or declared that there will be no sequel to OotS, so I can't get on board with the second half of that.

Not predicting a sequel, just a last page splash panel with lots of red-haired, blond, and strawberry-blonds surrounding Elan's bed, with perhaps a red-silver haired man and a platinum blond woman hugging a wrinkled but still cute Haley nearby.

[ZhonLord]

Not predicting a sequel, just a last page splash panel with lots of red-haired, blond, and strawberry-blonds surrounding Elan's bed, with perhaps a red-silver haired man and a platinum blond woman hugging a wrinkled but still cute Haley nearby.

A post-credits scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html), if you will.

[Metastachydium]

The hidebound reactions to a bit of thinking outside of the box should not have surprised me.

Two things, good Sir:
1. while Elan dying is merely extremely unlikely and a twist I'm not sure would work well anyhow, sorry, the Roy and Haley thing is just not going to happen, period;
2. I'm a FLOWER. Nothing about me is, or indeed, can be hidebound!


A shortage of spell slots and a lack of access to a teleportation device.

[Pedantry alert.] Technically, Teleportation wouldn't do much for him as the fortress is on the Astral plane.


5 quatloos that Elan's happy ending involves Elan and Haley going to the world in the rift, becoming 3d via an art upgrade, and begin a new campaign in the new world.

Gimme an exchange rate for those quat-whatevers, and I'll gladly raise the stakes to double against that.

[ZhonLord]

New prediction: the party is going to have to fight against MitD for a couple rounds before he realizes O-Chul is there and changes sides. Just long enough to put the party in serious danger from his overwhelming power, rather than having him switch sides instantly.

I bet one crypto coffee on this.

[Peelee]

2. I'm a FLOWER. Nothing about me is, or indeed, can be hidebound!

I wonder where that indignation stems from.

[Metastachydium]

I wonder where that indignation stems from.

It's rooted quite deep in what defines me, honestly.

[Peelee]

It's rooted quite deep in what defines me, honestly.

But you still branch out fairly well.

[Edreyn]

I posted all this before a few times, in other threads, but will post here again as an "official" prediction. Or maybe someone didn't see it before.

1) Belkar won't die. All prophecies will be fullfilled by a game of words - examples: drawing weapon "his last breath ever" from scabbard, being short (he is halfling) and not long in this world, getting so rich that he doesn't need a saving fund and so on.

2) MitD is a creature from metaphor\popular saying\slogan\famous fairy tale etc, and doesn't appear in any version of DnD rules.

3) There might be a conversation with Snarl and he could tell a story very different from what we heard so far.

4) Party might defeat not only Snarl, but also gods and will get independence for Oots world, no one there will have to worry about mighty beings kill everyone just for their own reasons.

5) Azurites and goblins will live together in one settlement, with merged populace and government.

[Kish]

1) Belkar won't die. All prophecies will be fullfilled by a game of words - examples: drawing weapon "his last breath ever" from scabbard, being short (he is halfling) and not long in this world, getting so rich that he doesn't need a saving fund and so on.

Twenty gold says Belkar will die.


4) Party might defeat not only Snarl, but also gods and will get independence for Oots world, no one there will have to worry about mighty beings kill everyone just for their own reasons.

One hundred gold says the Order will not kill or fight the gods.


5) Azurites and goblins will live together in one settlement, with merged populace and government.
Twenty gold says this will not happen.

[Peelee]

2) MitD is a creature from metaphor\popular saying\slogan\famous fairy tale etc, and doesn't appear in any version of DnD rules.
I'll take this one.

3) There might be a conversation with Snarl and he could tell a story very different from what we heard so far.
And this one.

4) Party might defeat not only Snarl, but also gods and will get independence for Oots world, no one there will have to worry about mighty beings kill everyone just for their own reasons.
And also this one.

5) Azurites and goblins will live together in one settlement, with merged populace and government.
This one too.

1) Belkar won't die. All prophecies will be fullfilled by a game of words - examples: drawing weapon "his last breath ever" from scabbard, being short (he is halfling) and not long in this world, getting so rich that he doesn't need a saving fund and so on.
So here's the problem. I would like to bet against this one a thousand times, but i am only able to do so once. Such is life.

[Metastachydium]

But you still branch out fairly well.

Sometimes life leaves me with no other choice, you know?


3) There might be a conversation with Snarl and he could tell a story very different from what we heard so far.

4) Party might defeat not only Snarl, but also gods and will get independence for Oots world, no one there will have to worry about mighty beings kill everyone just for their own reasons.

Not sure what do to with mights bet-wise, but I'd put nice sums against both of those. Especially the latter.


5) Azurites and goblins will live together in one settlement, with merged populace and government.

And you're on.

[Peelee]

Sometimes life leaves me with no other choice, you know?

Makes sense. Sounds like i was barking up the wrong tree to start with.

[Metastachydium]

Makes sense. Sounds like i was barking up the wrong tree to start with.

Eh, I'm ready to brush that aside this once.

[Peelee]

Eh, I'm ready to brush that aside this once.

So long as it's been fruitful I'm happy

[brian 333]

So long as it's been fruitful I'm happy

Grasping at straws with some of these puns, are we? You should stick to what you do best.

Be careful you don't get stuck in a briar patch with Metastachydium; he is an ivy-league scholar.

[Peelee]

Grasping at straws with some of these puns, are we? You should stick to what you do best.

Be careful you don't get stuck in a briar patch with Metastachydium; he is an ivy-league scholar.

I feel like you're getting lost in the weeds here.

[Ruck]

New prediction: the party is going to have to fight against MitD for a couple rounds before he realizes O-Chul is there and changes sides. Just long enough to put the party in serious danger from his overwhelming power, rather than having him switch sides instantly.

I bet one crypto coffee on this.

I actually will bet against O-Chul being the reason specifically. MitD's friendship with O-Chul is well-established, and I think it's going to be an important piece of his growth to not just switch because he sees his friend on the other side, but because he realizes the other side are the good guys. I actually think it will be more interesting if MitD flips to save someone he doesn't know at all. I think Durkon and Vaarsuvius are the only members of the Order he's never seen before, although I don't think he's interacted with Elan, only seen him at Girard's Rift.


I posted all this before a few times, in other threads, but will post here again as an "official" prediction. Or maybe someone didn't see it before.

1) Belkar won't die. All prophecies will be fullfilled by a game of words - examples: drawing weapon "his last breath ever" from scabbard, being short (he is halfling) and not long in this world, getting so rich that he doesn't need a saving fund and so on.

2) MitD is a creature from metaphor\popular saying\slogan\famous fairy tale etc, and doesn't appear in any version of DnD rules.

3) There might be a conversation with Snarl and he could tell a story very different from what we heard so far.

4) Party might defeat not only Snarl, but also gods and will get independence for Oots world, no one there will have to worry about mighty beings kill everyone just for their own reasons.

5) Azurites and goblins will live together in one settlement, with merged populace and government.

I'll bet against 1, 2, and 4 for sure. 3 and 5 aren't implausible but I think 3 is an extremely long shot and 2 is a long shot.

[corydeburd]

1 promise to commit seppuku that I will renege on that the MitD turns out to be something more dramatically relevant than just an obscure monster from a forgotten source book somewhere.


I personally agree we've spent too much time on guessing the species identity of MitD and not as much about his backstory and plot relevance.

The Astral Plane remark seems a good point in favor of this.



3) There might be a conversation with Snarl and he could tell a story very different from what we heard so far.


Definitely this (not sure about a conversation exactly, but something). We already know the deities don't know about the city in the rift.

I think this is tied to the above. MitD's "What gate?" gag could really be telling us that most characters misunderstand the Snarl's nature, whereas MitD sees things more clearly.

[Metastachydium]

So long as it's been fruitful I'm happy


Grasping at straws with some of these puns, are we? You should stick to what you do best.

Be careful you don't get stuck in a briar patch with Metastachydium; he is an ivy-league scholar.


I feel like you're getting lost in the weeds here.

"Feel like"? Are those the seeds of doubt that I see here?

[Peelee]

"Feel like"? Are those the seeds of doubt that I see here?

Nah, i don't beat around the bush with that.

[KorvinStarmast]

We already know the deities don't know about the city in the rift. What city? :mitd: Did you mean "world in the rift" or "planet in the rift" ... or is there a city in there that I have not seen in any of the strips? :smallconfused:

I think this is tied to the above. MitD's "What gate?" gag could really be telling us that most characters misunderstand the Snarl's nature, whereas MitD sees things more clearly. Hard for me to bet against that, and I like how you presented this idea. :smallsmile:

[ZhonLord]

I actually will bet against O-Chul being the reason specifically. MitD's friendship with O-Chul is well-established, and I think it's going to be an important piece of his growth to not just switch because he sees his friend on the other side, but because he realizes the other side are the good guys. I actually think it will be more interesting if MitD flips to save someone he doesn't know at all. I think Durkon and Vaarsuvius are the only members of the Order he's never seen before, although I don't think he's interacted with Elan, only seen him at Girard's Rift.

He saw V in the tower. Teleported the elf and O-Chul away to safety together. At this point it really is only Durkon he's never seen before from the core group. Though now there's also Minrah, Lien, Serini, Sunny and Mimi whom he could rescue from a tight spot, so your counter-bet still has merit.

[Metastachydium]

Nah, i don't beat around the bush with that.

My bad! In my defense, I am no sage.


At this point it really is only Durkon he's never seen before from the core group.

In actual fact, he saw more of Durkon than most of the cast would probably like to (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html).

[ZhonLord]

In actual fact, he saw more of Durkon than most of the cast would probably like to (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html).

.....I completely forgot about that. Then yeah, it would have to be a non-core team member for it to be someone he's never seen before.

[Peelee]

My bad! In my defense, I am no sage.

Happens all the thyme.

[Ruck]

He saw V in the tower. Teleported the elf and O-Chul away to safety together. At this point it really is only Durkon he's never seen before from the core group. Though now there's also Minrah, Lien, Serini, Sunny and Mimi whom he could rescue from a tight spot, so your counter-bet still has merit.
Ugh, I really should have remembered this one. It's pretty critical, after all.


In actual fact, he saw more of Durkon than most of the cast would probably like to (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html).
I don't feel bad about not remembering this one, though. It would be pretty funny if MitD was like "Hey, it's little dude who was getting his bone on." That probably won't happen because I don't think the moment will be undercut by humor that badly, but it's a funny thought.


I personally agree we've spent too much time on guessing the species identity of MitD and not as much about his backstory and plot relevance.

Well, there's less subjectivity in trying to figure out his species, since there are rules around that sort of thing. I'm not sure what evidence we have to guess at his backstory.

To wit:


The Astral Plane remark seems a good point in favor of this.

Okay, but what does that mean and what should we conclude from it?

(I'm also not even sure his backstory is important. And I'm not sure what his plot relevance is beyond the quite obvious setup that per his story of personal growth, he's going to flip sides at some crucial moment.)

[Peelee]

Okay, but what does that mean and what should we conclude from it?
This, of course:

I wish to apologize to everyone for their wasted time and efforts, as I have absolutely and definitively solved the mystery of the MitD's identity. It is, perhaps unsurprisingly, a creature that we have not yet guessed (to the best of my knowledge), which is why it wasn't already obviously apparent, as this is the single most perfect creature that could possibly be presented (which only makes sense, as it is absolutely what the MitD is, of course). Please hold your applause until the end.

The Monster in the Darkness is, quite clearly, Wile E. Coyote.


Wile E. Coyote has yellow eyes.
Wile E. Coyote is a coyote, which is a generally known animal, and would fit "one of these".
Wile E. Coyote lives in the American Southwest, and it would be quite surprising to find him in a rainforest.
Wile E. Coyote is silent, so it would be surprising to find him speaking.
Wile E. Coyote is roughly the same size as the Roadrunner, a notably small bird, and is thus much smaller than a regular coyote would be.
Wile E. Coyote is famously portrayed as always hungry.
Wile E. Coyote is famously portrayed as behaving quite immaturely.
Wile E. Coyote is almost universally never harmed by external forces, only by himself or his own machinations, which explains why Miko and Belkar cannot hurt him, but he can give himself a papercut.
Wile E. Coyote did try to hit as lightly as possible, but his plan was foiled by the ACME rocket-powered gloves he was wearing, launching Miko and Windstrider through the tower wall with great force.
Wile E. Coyote caused the earthquake because he was wearing ACME rocket-powered boots, which the demon roach saw him order.
Wile E. Coyote's earnest desire for the well-being of other creatures would tug on the Roadrunner's heartstrings; the Roadrunner would have transported O-Chul and V from Xykon's grasp to the Elven Island, moving so fast that it appeared to be a teleport.
Wile E. Coyote cannot raise the dead.
Wile E. Coyote famously has issues correctly working the contraptions he orders.
Wile E. Coyote would be familiar with the Astral Plane, in the sense of it being a void connecting ideas, as he is an idea from Chuck Jones that traveled to the idea of the Order of the Stick. This would also explain why he is unfamiliar with all other planes.
Wile E. Coyote is not immune to mind-affecting effects, and can be hypnotized.
Wile E. Coyote is in a very different animated style than the Order of the Stick, which would likely cause many in the comic to be sickened by him, while others are in awe or admiration. And certainly a wizard would have never seen anything like him.
Wile E. Coyote's tracks would similarly be wholly unrecognizable to Belkar.

And, finally, Wile E. Coyote would clearly be able to display flashes of brilliance despite his otherwise childish demeanor, as evidenced here:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d1/58/08/d1580895b6991074a4ee35e7e3f9279a.png

As you can no doubt now plainly see, the MitD can only be Wile E. Coyote, as he is the most perfect fit that has ever been imagined. Thank you.

[balloons fall]

[Edreyn]

Why so many people hope Belkar will die? Once, in the comic old days, when it was more about silly jokes, I so much liked his black humor.

I still remember one of his jokes - "it starts with 's' and ends with 'litting their throats'".

Now he is still evil, but way too serious.

[Peelee]

Why so many people hope Belkar will die? Once, in the comic old days, when it was more about silly jokes, I so much liked his black humor.

I still remember one of his jokes - "it starts with 's' and ends with 'litting their throats'".

Now he is still evil, but way too serious.

It's less "hope" and more "the prophecy has been worded several different ways that it would be cheap and poor writing to have them all resolve separately without death, and also the Oracle actually kmows the future and hates Belkar and has no reason to take pleasure in Belkar's fate if itls ridiculous things like 'he will paint a painting called "last breath ever'".

[ZhonLord]

Why so many people hope Belkar will die?

Not hope. We KNOW he will die because the Oracle can see the exact future. In both visits the party made to him, he said Belkar was going to die. Then he formalized it with the prophecy he gave Roy. Belkar is absolutely going to die because the Oracle's predictions have never been wrong, and appear to be incapable of being wrong.

But what happens after his death? If he becomes undead, or a ghost, or reincarnates into someone new and no longer falls himself Belkar Bitterleaf? Now that is where things get interesting. After all, Mr Scruffy still needs someone to look after him.

[Edreyn]

Well, I think exactly the opposite. Oracle never said "Belkar will die", so I believe that's because he won't. Thats the way with all his prophecies actually.

We will wait and find out one day.

(My answer applies to both posts above)

[ZhonLord]

Well, I think exactly the opposite. Oracle never said "Belkar will die", so I believe that's because he won't. Thats the way with all his prophecies actually.

"the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA." "He should savor his next birthday cake." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)

"your pal isn't long for this world." "Belkar Bitterleaf will draw his last breath - EVER - before the end of the year." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

Add these four statements together and tell me what other conclusion could possibly be drawn.

[Peelee]

Well, I think exactly the opposite. Oracle never said "Belkar will die", so I believe that's because he won't. Thats the way with all his prophecies actually.

We will wait and find out one day.

(My answer applies to both posts above)

That's not the way with all his prophecies. The opposite, in fact, is actually the case.

[Kish]

Well, I think exactly the opposite. Oracle never said "Belkar will die", so I believe that's because he won't. Thats the way with all his prophecies actually.

We will wait and find out one day.

(My answer applies to both posts above)
So are you taking my bet, or just talking about how the only reason to believe something will happen is to want it to happen?

[Metastachydium]

Happens all the thyme.

Oh, shoot! I should have seen that one coming from a mile away.


"the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA." "He should savor his next birthday cake." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)

"your pal isn't long for this world." "Belkar Bitterleaf will draw his last breath - EVER - before the end of the year." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

Add these four statements together and tell me what other conclusion could possibly be drawn.

I'm very glad that you asked, actually (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25515924&postcount=224)!

[Edreyn]

I'll try to explain what I mean.
In most of books, and this one too, prophecies never mean literally what they say. Yes, each of Oracle's prophecies are alegories\parables. But their meaning can only be understood in one way - Belkar will die. And that's where the catch is. Oracle (actually author) wants us to be sure that prophecy will shoot in one specific way. And the very meaning of prophecies in books is to never work as expected.

Kish, okay, if you want.
My bet: Belkar will not die, or change to something completely different.
Exception if he dies from old age in epilogue.

If I lose, call me a pig three times in a row in public.

[Peelee]

I'll try to explain what I mean.
In most of books, and this one too, prophecies never mean literally what they say. Yes, each of Oracle's prophecies are alegories\parables. But their meaning can only be understood in one way - Belkar will die. And that's where the catch is. Oracle (actually author) wants us to be sure that prophecy will shoot in one specific way. And the very meaning of prophecies in books is to never work as expected.
Ok, i nees you to explain this to me. The Oracle tells Eugene Xykon's name, tells Roy and Durkon where Xykon is, tells Roy which of two Gates Xykon will be at first, tells Haley to not overthink things to fix her aphasia, tells V the exact circumstances that they will get the power they crave, tells Belkar that he will kill at least one of a list of potential targets, tells Durkon he will die before returning home....

I'm not seeing any evidence of what you're claiming. And even in literature, if someone is told they're going to do something, and they try to take actions to prevent it, they just end up doing that thing anyway, so what you claim isn't even necessarily true in other stories. And that's not even factoring in that other stories dont affect what happens in this story.

Like, from all the information we have, expecting Belkar to live is the hopefulness, not expecting him to die. Again, if you can explain how, exactly, the Oracle has been wrong about anything, please, im all ears. The only one you can even really argue on is Durkon's, and he still straight-up died, so the expectation was still met perfectly, there was just more information (that a vampire would hijack his body) that wasn't revealed. But the expectation of death still came about. Belkar? Not needing to worry about retirement isnt meeting any expectations. Its wishful thinking relying on nothing but "well i think hes funny" and only supported by bad storytelling.

[Edreyn]

I don't think I can explain any better, never was good in this.

One thing comes to mind actually.

From Pratchett (not exact quote):
'Would the sun really never rise again?'
'Yes.'
'And what would happen?'
'The world would be illuminated by a giant orb of very heated gas.'

Never was good at disputes, can't explain any better.
But I do bet Belkar won't die.

[Peelee]

I don't think I can explain any better, never was good in this.

One thing comes to mind actually.

From Pratchett (not exact quote):
'Will the sun really never rise again?'
'Yes.'
'And what would happen?'
'The world would be illuminated by a giant orb of very heated gas.'

Never was good at disputes, can't explain any better.
But I do bet Belkar won't die.

Here's the thing. You're explaining your position perfectly fine. The reason you can't explain it better is because it's wrong. Your entire claim that this is how the Oracle's prophecies have worked is wrong. Your claim that this is how prophecies in fiction in general work is wrong (and irrelevant, but it's more important to note that it's wrong).

The issue is not with your explanation not being better. It can't be better, because there's nothing more you can say that will explain it, because its wrong.

[Ruck]

Why so many people hope Belkar will die?

This thread is "Predictions Page," not "Hopes Page."

[Edreyn]

Okay, I guess you can be right.
Again, I hate arguing.

[BloodSquirrel]

I used to expect that there would be some twist to the prophecy on the grounds that it would be boring if we were just told a thing would happen and it happened. There was a twist to Durkon's, after all, even if it still came true.

But Belkar's redemption arc has given the prophecy a clear narrative purpose- it's dramatic irony. It gives the whole storyline a tragic undercurrent that wouldn't exist if we expected him to get a happy ending because of his redemption.

[Metastachydium]

I take it that nobody's getting aboard the air gnome extraplanar forced labour train, then? That makes me sad(, even as I don't think it's particularly likely).

[Kish]

Never was good at disputes, can't explain any better.
But I do bet Belkar won't die.
If we're going with out-of-OotS examples, how about Oedipus?

Oracle: "Your son's going to kill his father and marry his mother."

[Metastachydium]

If we're going with out-of-OotS examples, how about Oedipus?

Oracle: "Your son's going to kill his father and marry his mother."

Kalkhas: "It's gonna take ten years, but you'll win."
Kassandra: [Gives the exact body count.]
That One Harpy in the Aeneid: "You are going to eat your tables!"

[ZhonLord]

If we're going with out-of-OotS examples, how about Oedipus?

Oracle: "Your son's going to kill his father and marry his mother."
Wheel of time, the ENTIRE Karaethon Cycle. As just one example:

"Twice and twice he shall be marked. Once the heron, to set his path. Twice the heron to name him true. Once the dragon for remembrance lost. Twice the dragon for the price he must pay."

[Precure]

This thread is "Predictions Page," not "Hopes Page."

Yeah, exactly. I'm predicting Belkar to not die, but it's definitely not something I'm hoping for.

[Precure]

He saw V in the tower. Teleported the elf and O-Chul away to safety together. At this point it really is only Durkon he's never seen before from the core group. Though now there's also Minrah, Lien, Serini, Sunny and Mimi whom he could rescue from a tight spot, so your counter-bet still has merit.

He know Serini from the diary at least.

[Kish]

Yeah, exactly. I'm predicting Belkar to not die, but it's definitely not something I'm hoping for.
Well if you want to take my bet, you can console yourself when he doesn't die with having 20 more gold.

[Edreyn]

To keep this thread alive, two more predictions.

6) Redcloak will be killed by Dark One himself, either as punishment for failure, or betrayed by him. Dark One is evil, don't forget.

7) MitD will play an important role in the very end, not in just eating Xykon, as said before, but in finding a permanent solution with Snarl-vs-Gods dilemma.

And my opinion on another prediction from this thread:

There won't be battle in Astral Fortress, but the Final Battle will be joined by all surviving members of other factions.

[ZhonLord]

I wager 2 brand new pairs of shoes that O-Chul will be among those who die permanently before the end of the story, as a long-delayed dramatic climax to Elan's prediction of death. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)

[Ruck]

6) Redcloak will be killed by Dark One himself, either as punishment for failure, or betrayed by him. Dark One is evil, don't forget.

Can TDO even do that? The gods aren't really allowed to act directly on the material plane, so I'm not sure how that would work.


I wager 2 brand new pairs of shoes that O-Chul will be among those who die permanently before the end of the story, as a long-delayed dramatic climax to Elan's prediction of death. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)

I'll bet against that. It may just be hope, or a firm conviction that O-Chul is too great a character to imagine his story ending here. If it were necessary for the story, then it could certainly happen, but I also don't see from here how it would be necessary.

[brian 333]

Can TDO even do that? The gods aren't really allowed to act directly on the material plane, so I'm not sure how that would work.

The gods agreed amongst themselves to not intervene directly. TDO was not a part of that agreement.

[Peelee]

The gods agreed amongst themselves to not intervene directly. TDO was not a part of that agreement.

Neither were any of the other gods or demigods raised from the world, like Dvalin, but I'm pretty sure they apply regardless. If for no reason other than TDO vs the entire other three pantheons would be pretty one-sided.

[Ruck]

The gods agreed amongst themselves to not intervene directly. TDO was not a part of that agreement.

Hmm, I suppose you are correct. Your comment reminded me that Hel was going to try to give Durkon a heart attack (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html) before Thor intervened, so it looks like it is indeed more an agreement among the gods than something hardwired into the rules for the Material Plane.

[Peelee]

Hmm, I suppose you are correct. Your comment reminded me that Hel was going to try to give Durkon a heart attack (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html) before Thor intervened, so it looks like it is indeed more an agreement among the gods than something hardwired into the rules for the Material Plane.

That's also within her domain, though more overt than is probably allowed. Also, Thor sent a massive storm to attack Hel's priest, so it looks like they are probably allowed to influence things. Direct killing is clearly not allowed, as even with Hel's plan to kill Durkon, she had to be subtle about it so the others wouldn't notice. Dollars to doughnuts they're all pretty focused on the happenings at the moment.

[brian 333]

Neither were any of the other gods or demigods raised from the world, like Dvalin, but I'm pretty sure they apply regardless. If for no reason other than TDO vs the entire other three pantheons would be pretty one-sided.

Agreed, yet I am sure they would not act against TDO out of fear of creating yet another four-color snarl.


That's also within her domain, though more overt than is probably allowed. Also, Thor sent a massive storm to attack Hel's priest, so it looks like they are probably allowed to influence things. Direct killing is clearly not allowed, as even with Hel's plan to kill Durkon, she had to be subtle about it so the others wouldn't notice. Dollars to doughnuts they're all pretty focused on the happenings at the moment.

Signs, portents, and divine inspiration are different than direct action.

Thor sent a storm that the Mechane had to navigate when he could have simply destroyed the ship, leaving Greg on an island in the middle of the sea somewhere with the OotS and the crew of the Mechane to play out a Lord of the Flies scenario. Hel spoke out of anger, but ultimately chose not to directly act. (There is a high percentage chance that Durkon will die of hypertension anyway...)

[Ruck]

That's also within her domain, though more overt than is probably allowed. Also, Thor sent a massive storm to attack Hel's priest, so it looks like they are probably allowed to influence things. Direct killing is clearly not allowed, as even with Hel's plan to kill Durkon, she had to be subtle about it so the others wouldn't notice. Dollars to doughnuts they're all pretty focused on the happenings at the moment.

Bolded for emphasis and underlined for double emphasis-- it's not allowed, but it's not impossible or something the gods are locked out from doing. Hel had to try to do it in a way the other gods wouldn't notice, because then they might retaliate in some way; it was still possible for her to act directly.

(Re: "her domain": You may be right that, being a goddess of disease and death, her ability to directly cause death may not be shared by the others, but given the gods' sheer level of power I am skeptical that one could not kill a mortal if they wanted to and didn't have an agreement in place not to.)

We don't know if TDO would care about whether they noticed, if he is not part of their agreements-- and, as brian mentions, they probably don't want to risk creating another Snarl by acting against him. Plus, honestly, the other gods probably wouldn't care too much if TDO killed his own high priest.

[Peelee]

Agreed, yet I am sure they would not act against TDO out of fear of creating yet another four-color snarl.
By the same token, TDO probably wouldn't try to interfere for the same reason.


Signs, portents, and divine inspiration are different than direct action.

Thor sent a storm that the Mechane had to navigate when he could have simply destroyed the ship, leaving Greg on an island in the middle of the sea somewhere with the OotS and the crew of the Mechane to play out a Lord of the Flies scenario.
The storm had several lightning strikes headed directly for the ship, the clear implication was without V's help the storm would have destroyed the ship

Bolded for emphasis and underlined for double emphasis-- it's not allowed, but it's not impossible or something the gods are locked out from doing. Hel had to try to do it in a way the other gods wouldn't notice, because then they might retaliate in some way; it was still possible for her to act directly.

(Re: "her domain": You may be right that, being a goddess of disease and death, her ability to directly cause death may not be shared by the others, but given the gods' sheer level of power I am skeptical that one could not kill a mortal if they wanted to and didn't have an agreement in place not to.)

We don't know if TDO would care about whether they noticed, if he is not part of their agreements-- and, as brian mentions, they probably don't want to risk creating another Snarl by acting against him. Plus, honestly, the other gods probably wouldn't care too much if TDO killed his own high priest.

Oh, i totally agree that it's possible, in much the same vein that its possible to start driving entirely on the other side of the double yellow lines. But it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

[Metastachydium]

I wager 2 brand new pairs of shoes that O-Chul will be among those who die permanently before the end of the story, as a long-delayed dramatic climax to Elan's prediction of death. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)


I'll bet against that. It may just be hope, or a firm conviction that O-Chul is too great a character to imagine his story ending here. If it were necessary for the story, then it could certainly happen, but I also don't see from here how it would be necessary.

"O-Chul died permanently once. But he got better."


Neither were any of the other gods or demigods raised from the world, like Dvalin, but I'm pretty sure they apply regardless. If for no reason other than TDO vs the entire other three pantheons would be pretty one-sided.


That's also within her domain, though more overt than is probably allowed. Also, Thor sent a massive storm to attack Hel's priest, so it looks like they are probably allowed to influence things. Direct killing is clearly not allowed, as even with Hel's plan to kill Durkon, she had to be subtle about it so the others wouldn't notice. Dollars to doughnuts they're all pretty focused on the happenings at the moment.


Bolded for emphasis and underlined for double emphasis-- it's not allowed, but it's not impossible or something the gods are locked out from doing. Hel had to try to do it in a way the other gods wouldn't notice, because then they might retaliate in some way; it was still possible for her to act directly.

(Re: "her domain": You may be right that, being a goddess of disease and death, her ability to directly cause death may not be shared by the others, but given the gods' sheer level of power I am skeptical that one could not kill a mortal if they wanted to and didn't have an agreement in place not to.)

We don't know if TDO would care about whether they noticed, if he is not part of their agreements-- and, as brian mentions, they probably don't want to risk creating another Snarl by acting against him. Plus, honestly, the other gods probably wouldn't care too much if TDO killed his own high priest.

Gods are not allowed to tell mortals, not even their clerics about the Snarl or the Rifts. Big Purple did just that, and for all his high priests ever since he knows about those. He even provides updates (or used to, at any rate). He doesn't give a damn about what he's allowed or not allowed to do.

[Peelee]

Gods are not allowed to tell mortals, not even their clerics about the Snarl or the Rifts. Big Purple did just that, and for all his high priests ever since he knows about those. He even provides updates (or used to, at any rate). He doesn't give a damn about what he's allowed or not allowed to do.
Gods aren't allowed to tell those who don't already know. He know a goblin discovered a rift, which is how TDO found out. Did only thr chicken die or the tbe goblin bite it too?

Theory: TDO created the Crimson Mantle for the goblin who discovered the rift (assuming he didn't die from it, cant remember SOD) and then everyone else who out it on learned via the loophole of TDO only telling the first one, who knew already.

What updates were there?

[Metastachydium]

Gods aren't allowed to tell those who don't already know. He know a goblin discovered a rift, which is how TDO found out. Did only thr chicken die or the tbe goblin bite it too?

Both. In fact, we only see the goblin die.


What updates were there?

The Gates didn't exist back when the Mantle was reportedly created; and yet, it imparts the Ritual to its Bearer that can subvert them.

[Peelee]

Both. In fact, we only see the goblin die.



The Gates didn't exist back when the Mantle was reportedly created; and yet, it imparts the Ritual to its Bearer that can subvert them.

New theory: another goblin went to look for the one who died, found the newly built Gate, got the Mantle.

[Metastachydium]

New theory: another goblin went to look for the one who died, found the newly built Gate, got the Mantle.

Unlikely. We are told he gave it to his then-high priest, who wasn't even in the West at that point and that the Scribblers killed that one before they made the Gates.

[Ruck]

Oh, i totally agree that it's possible, in much the same vein that its possible to start driving entirely on the other side of the double yellow lines. But it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

I don't think it will happen, myself, but the question I'm grappling with at this point is "What is actually stopping The Dark One from doing so?"

[BloodSquirrel]

I don't think it will happen, myself, but the question I'm grappling with at this point is "What is actually stopping The Dark One from doing so?"

I'm not sure there really is anything other than that, typically speaking, a god killing their own high priest doesn't do them a lot of good. Generally, your high priest doesn't get to be your high priest unless he's sufficiently devoted, and we haven't seen many situations where a high priest betrays his faith and what their god's response would be. I also imagine that refusing to grant them any more spells would be a very serious and highly visible punishment in and of itself, and would probably serve the god's purpose even more so than killing them. Otherwise, I don't think it would be that unbelievable for a god to smite one of his own followers. It might not even be against the rules- it's not like we've been given an explicit run-down of them. There well could be a "Your own followers are your own business" clause.

The closest thing I can think of that we've seen is Miko falling and losing her powers. The gods did visibly interfere at that moment.

[Peelee]

I don't think it will happen, myself, but the question I'm grappling with at this point is "What is actually stopping The Dark One from doing so?"

That's why i keep trying to theorize on him following the rules, more or less - unless and until he openly goes against them, why not just assume he's also following them?

[brian 333]

That's why i keep trying to theorize on him following the rules, more or less - unless and until he openly goes against them, why not just assume he's also following them?

Because so far he is not.

He told his high priest about it in direct violation of the 'No Blabbing' policy.

He actively created a ritual that if cast would let The Snarl out of it's prison, and gave it to his high priest.

[BloodSquirrel]

It seems pretty explicitly to me that the gods all follow the rules in the "cold war" sense. They do what they have to in order to keep it from becoming a hot war, but they'll all cheat if and when they can get away with it to some degree or another. Hel follows the rules until she thinks she can cheat. Thor stretches the rules with Minrah by telling her stuff on a very thin justification of "She's heard the word 'Snarl' before". Loki straight-up says he approves of cheating as a general principle. Thor also says that The Dark One doesn't have a formal place in most of their conventions, so he can't actually be following the rules except in a mostly functional sense, rather than a technical one.

We haven't been given any indication that they are metaphysically prevented from breaking any of the rules, we have been directly told their motivations for following them, and we've been given multiple instances of them cheating when they think they can get away from it. What else is missing?

Not that The Dark One killing Redcloak would necessarily be cheating. We don't know one way or the other because we don't know what most of them are, and neither do any of the main characters, partially because a lot of them stem from The Snarl existing, and that has to be kept a secret.

Point is, I don't think we can take anything that The Dark One does as evidence of there not being a rule against it because the only real reason for him to follow any rules is to avoid retaliation, and if the other gods don't retaliate against him when he does something, then it could either be because he didn't violate a rule or because he's not subject to the rules and what he did does not, by itself, warrant retaliation.

[Oromin]

Because so far he is not.

He told his high priest about it in direct violation of the 'No Blabbing' policy.

He actively created a ritual that if cast would let The Snarl out of it's prison, and gave it to his high priest.

I have to agree with Brian that trying to blackmail the other gods with the Snarl is probably against the rules.

I think the extent to which the Dark One has refrained from direct intervention is mostly indicative of his bargaining position being quite weak. It's unclear how much he knows or understands the various god laws, but in any contest of divine might he'd lose. There are too many other gods. So refraining from actions that might cause such a direct confrontation are in his best interest even if he's not totally sure what those actions might be.

[Kish]

Thor said "the slightest disagreement could create a new two-color Snarl." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) I do not think that maps to "the Dark One needs to tread lightly lest the other gods beat him up."

[Ruck]

That's why i keep trying to theorize on him following the rules, more or less - unless and until he openly goes against them, why not just assume he's also following them?

Well, I don't assume he's not following them yet. Again, the question I'm grappling with is, if he decided to kill Redcloak (unlikely as I find that), would there be anything to deter or stop him from doing so?

[BloodSquirrel]

Thor said "the slightest disagreement could create a new two-color Snarl." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) I do not think that maps to "the Dark One needs to tread lightly lest the other gods beat him up."

That doesn't really follow. We're talking about a scenario here where everyone has an incentive to avoid a direct conflict, including the Dark One, but where the Dark One is almost certainly to come out the worst if it happens. If one god begins flouting the rules and dares the other gods to do anything about it, they're going to act. Risking another snarl would be bad, but letting another god do literally whatever they want with no fear of reprisal would be even worse, especially when that includes trying to take control of the existing snarl.

This is a game that gets played whenever you have a MAD scenario. Both sides have to figure out how far the other side can be pushed before launching the nukes, and having stronger conventional forces can play a role in that.

Also, we know for a fact that Thor tried to directly attack him when he had just been born. There is definitively a calculus behind when and when they aren't willing to risk a new Snarl.

[Metastachydium]

Well, I don't assume he's not following them yet. Again, the question I'm grappling with is, if he decided to kill Redcloak (unlikely as I find that), would there be anything to deter or stop him from doing so?

I don't think so, no. He worked around the rules in ways that should make the others far more twitchy. And he's in a pretty good position. The Northern and Southern gods are divided on what to do with him, so it is possible that an attempt from within the Pantheon to snuff him out would be checked by the opposing faction. The Westerners, meanwhile, don't really take him seriously (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). I can't quite see who would stop him from messing up his own church, really, not that (I agree) he has much reason to do so.

[brian 333]

Why would any deity care what he does with his own clergy? That seems to me to be an internal church matter.

[Provengreil]

Well, I don't assume he's not following them yet. Again, the question I'm grappling with is, if he decided to kill Redcloak (unlikely as I find that), would there be anything to deter or stop him from doing so?

Probably not, for the same reason the godsmoot didn't have a rule preventing Roy from attacking Durkula. It's extremely difficult to imagine a situation in which that's an advantage for the bodyguard killing his charge after getting them all the way there, and thus the rule hasn't been made.

I'd lay chips that the gods' rules on killing their own high priest are similar.

[brian 333]

Probably not, for the same reason the godsmoot didn't have a rule preventing Roy from attacking Durkula. It's extremely difficult to imagine a situation in which that's an advantage for the bodyguard killing his charge after getting them all the way there, and thus the rule hasn't been made.

I'd lay chips that the gods' rules on killing their own high priest are similar.

I have seven blue chips and a bag of Lay's Lightly Salted that you are right. There is no rule against it because it happens so seldom if at all.

Edit: Half a bag of Lay's. For some reason I am not allowed to eat just one.

[Leriel]

Even if there's a long thread dedicated, I'd bet the MitD is some big caterpillar waiting to be a butterfly :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Even if there's a long thread dedicated, I'd bet the MitD is some big caterpillar waiting to be a butterfly :smallbiggrin:
Metaphorically (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/e/ee/Whiteslaad_3e.png/revision/latest?cb=20200611012019), I would not be surprised.

(If that was literally true I would be astounded.)

[Elanfanforlife]

I bet 500 gps that the final fight will take place in the final dungeon, but not at Kraagor's Gate, or it will start elsewhere in the final dungeon and then move to the gate.

[brian 333]

I bet 500 gps that the final fight will take place in the final dungeon, but not at Kraagor's Gate, or it will start elsewhere in the final dungeon and then move to the gate.

Seeing as we are not yet a quarter of the way into the final book, (if The Author has not mislead us about it being longer than UD,) and the OotS is headed to the Final Dungeon now, I'll take that bet.

I will add a side bet of 72 pps that more than half of the final book will come after they leave the Final Dungeon.

[Ruck]

Seeing as we are not yet a quarter of the way into the final book, (if The Author has not mislead us about it being longer than UD,)

I'm not sure about your police work there, Lou. Utterly Dwarfed was 243 comics; we've had 92 comics in the final book so far.

[Peelee]

Also IIRC he never said it would be longer than UD, or any book. He said it would be the last book, regardless of how big it would be. That heavily implies it may be bigger, but is ni guarantee.

[brian 333]

Also IIRC he never said it would be longer than UD, or any book. He said it would be the last book, regardless of how big it would be. That heavily implies it may be bigger, but is ni guarantee.

The term 'phone book' was used, if my recollection is correct.

[Peelee]

The term 'phone book' was used, if my recollection is correct.

Yes, it was. As in, "even if it's the size of a phone book". Again, heavily implied but no guarantee.

[Ruck]

Also IIRC he never said it would be longer than UD, or any book. He said it would be the last book, regardless of how big it would be. That heavily implies it may be bigger, but is ni guarantee.


The term 'phone book' was used, if my recollection is correct.

I believe the line was something like, "It'll be seven books, even if the last is as big as a phone book." So no guarantee it's the longest, but I think from Rich's perspective there's a lot to get through. (Even from the sheer number of unanswered questions or plots that need to be resolved, I think we can say there's a lot left to do.)

It wouldn't surprise me if the final book broke 300 strips. I would still be surprised if it was as high as 400, though.

Edit for one last piece of statistical information: Blood Runs in the Family is currently the longest book, at 273 strips.

[Metastachydium]

I'm not sure about your police work there, Lou.

brian's name brian.


Also IIRC he never said it would be longer than UD, or any book. He said it would be the last book, regardless of how big it would be. That heavily implies it may be bigger, but is ni guarantee.


The term 'phone book' was used, if my recollection is correct.


Yes, it was. As in, "even if it's the size of a phone book". Again, heavily implied but no guarantee.


I believe the line was something like, "It'll be seven books, even if the last is as big as a phone book." So no guarantee it's the longest, but I think from Rich's perspective there's a lot to get through. (Even from the sheer number of unanswered questions or plots that need to be resolved, I think we can say there's a lot left to do.)

It wouldn't surprise me if the final book broke 300 strips. I would still be surprised if it was as high as 400, though.

Edit for one last piece of statistical information: Blood Runs in the Family is currently the longest book, at 273 strips.

It's not a matter of "I believe" or "something like". The post is still available online and for free (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?298039-How-many-more-books&p=15827621#post15827621)!

[Omomuro]

It's not a matter of "I believe" or "something like". The post is still available online and for free (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?298039-How-many-more-books&p=15827621#post15827621)!

But what if he meant it looks like a phone book in terms of cover design, not thickness?

[Peelee]

Imean, if we want to be just as pedantic as possible, I've lived in a town so small the phone book was arguably thinner than some grocery store magazines, and definitely thinner than a couple of the OotS books.

[Metastachydium]

And I haven't seen a phonebook in years, so it might just imply it will be of dubious existence. (Which is not to say I'm not really curious now what an OotS book with such a cover design would look like, mind you.)

[Peelee]

And I haven't seen a phonebook in years, so it might just imply it will be of dubious existence. (Which is not to say I'm not really curious now what an OotS book with such a cover design would look like, mind you.)

Phone books were wild. They'd just print out where everyone lived, and an unstable person could open it up, pick a random name, load up their rifle, head on over, and then shoot a bunch of cans near that person. Especially if he hates those cans. Everyone had to get away from the cans.

[Metastachydium]

Phone books were wild. They'd just print out where everyone lived, and an unstable person could open it up, pick a random name, load up their rifle, head on over, and then shoot a bunch of cans near that person. Especially if he hates those cans. Everyone had to get away from the cans.

Holy… That is insane. Thankfully, we have GDPR now (plus, you know, the actual gun rules we've always had, you trigger-happy barbarians), so the cans can finally live without fear.

[brian 333]

Phone books were wild. They'd just print out where everyone lived, and an unstable person could open it up, pick a random name, load up their rifle, head on over, and then shoot a bunch of cans near that person. Especially if he hates those cans. Everyone had to get away from the cans.

I remember that movie. For some reason my girlfriend found Steve Martin funny back then. But in their defense, those cans were just asking to be shot.

[Ruck]

It's not a matter of "I believe" or "something like". The post is still available online and for free (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?298039-How-many-more-books&p=15827621#post15827621)!

Yeah, but looking it up takes time and effort I didn't want to spend.


Phone books were wild. They'd just print out where everyone lived, and an unstable person could open it up, pick a random name, load up their rifle, head on over, and then shoot a bunch of cans near that person. Especially if he hates those cans. Everyone had to get away from the cans.

My cans! My precious antique cans!

[Peelee]

Five gold on "Redcloak destroyed the phylactery".

This also necessarily implies the round holy symbol he switched back to is just a holy symbol. Probably not great odds for me on this one.

[Kish]

Five gold on "Redcloak destroyed the phylactery".

This also necessarily implies the round holy symbol he switched back to is just a holy symbol. Probably not great odds for me on this one.
I'll take that bet.

Redcloak may destroy it on-panel later, but I do not believe we are going to have a reveal of "oh I smashed the phylactery long ago."

[Provengreil]

Five gold on "Redcloak destroyed the phylactery".

This also necessarily implies the round holy symbol he switched back to is just a holy symbol. Probably not great odds for me on this one.

I'll take any bet you lay on that one, but only for the past tense. There are several dramatic reasons for RC to eventually be the one to break it though. I'll save my breakdown on that for a comic thread when it becomes relevant.

[Ruck]

Five gold on "Redcloak destroyed the phylactery".

This also necessarily implies the round holy symbol he switched back to is just a holy symbol. Probably not great odds for me on this one.

Yeah, I'll bet against that. If Xykon is somehow destroyed before the ritual is completed or before he and Redcloak have turned on each other, Redcloak is probably gonna want to bring him back.

Scratch that, since if Xykon regenerates in Redcloak's holy symbol, it's all over anyway. The better argument is that destroying it beforehand might somehow alert Xykon, and thus be an unnecessary risk, when Redcloak can wait until Xykon's body is destroyed and he can't do anything to retaliate until it's regenerated (which Redcloak can simply not let happen at that point).

[Precure]

I have nothing to bet, but I predict that Redcloak is planning to throw it into Snarl.

[ZhonLord]

New wager: I bet one whole internet that Serini will also be on the list of permanently dead after the big climax, and the party - most likely Elan and Haley - will adopt Sunny and take care of him til.he matures enough to go off on his own.

Reasoning: Haley is the most parental out of the group, as opposed to Roy's leader personality, and Elan would be a brother as much as a dad. It would also emphasize the plot aspect of relations between monstrous creatures and non-monstrous ones needing to change once the Snarl is dealt with for good.

[Precure]

Reasoning: Haley is the most parental out of the group

How is she parental in any way?

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak may destroy it on-panel later, but I do not believe we are going to have a reveal of "oh I smashed the phylactery long ago."

Well, of course not. He's not a Republic serial villain. He will have done it thirty-five minutes ago.

[Kish]

How is she parental in any way?
Oh you know. She has a vagina.

[Peelee]

https://media.tenor.com/H-6HsocalBwAAAAC/dwight-the.gif

[Metastachydium]

Oh you know. She has a vagina.

Well, fathers in OotS do have a, shall we say, track record.

[ZhonLord]

How is she parental in any way?
how about managing her boyfriend in the same manner a parent would when their kid is at a playground? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html)

or treating Belkar like a petulant child. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html)

[Peelee]

or treating Belkar like a petulant child. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html)

I see her treating Belkar as a loose cannon she has little to no control over. Not getting where you see "treats like petulant child"

[Metastachydium]

how about managing her boyfriend in the same manner a parent would when their kid is at a playground? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html)

And there's another possible read on the nature of their relationship one might want to consider. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1068.html) (Also, frankly, both options are somewhat disturbing.)

[KorvinStarmast]

New wager: I bet one whole internet that Serini will also be on the list of permanently dead after the big climax,
While Xykon does groove on stuff like fire, Serini has that troll blood thing going.
Hard to kill at this point thanks to regeneration.

[brian 333]

While Xykon does groove on stuff like fire, Serini has that troll blood thing going.
Hard to kill at this point thanks to regeneration.

Except, you know, fire vs. troll. Troll regeneration doesn't work on fire damage. So, you know, killing trolls with fire is a popular pastime.

[woweedd]

Actually, betting point:
300 GP on this book being longer in terms of strips then Blood Runs in the Family.
200 GP on it being over 300 strips long.
100 GP on it being over 400 strips long.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'll take that bet.

Redcloak may destroy it on-panel later, but I do not believe we are going to have a reveal of "oh I smashed the phylactery long ago."

"Oh, I had that character growth already."

(I take the bet, too)

These are all separate bets, and value bets at that. Two scrabble tiles each:

There's going to be a fake finale RSN, when the whole party fights Team Evil.

Tarquin, Ian, and everyone else associated with Elan's plan to defeat Tarquin is going to miraculously appear in a way that screws the pooch and everyone is going to get segregated into plot-sized chunks.

The plot-sized chunks, where necessary, will be forced to cooperate because of the hostility of the Final Dungeon.

Team Negotiator: Redcloak, Durkon, Minrah, and Belkar. Belkar is going to break the ice with Redcloak the same way he broke it with Serini. Worlds will be saved.

Team This Is Your Life: Monster in the Dark, Oona, Greyview, O-Chul, Lien. The Monster in the Dark's allegiance will go on trial. O-Chul is the prosecution, Oona is the defense. I expect O-Chul to win, but subversion is a heavy possibility here.

Team Odd Couple: Xykon and the Quinton will be together long enough for a few jokes and then Xykon will kick the dog somehow by killing the Quinton.

Team Oh Shoot, I Think I'm Out of Scrabble Tiles: V and Tarquin will be together. V will be called away. Sabine will agree to free V from the comfy chair if V kills Tarquin. V will kill Tarquin and then be dragged away for V's third timeout. The power of Lawful Evil will prevent the fiends from compelling V to finish the timeout he escaped. V will return in the nick of time. We will find out whether Outsiders are absorbed into their plane or regenerated somewhere else after losing all their hit points.

The story from this point will be a race for the gate where everyone is absolutely convinced they have to keep moving to accomplish their objectives.

[Kish]

See, if you were betting gold instead of scrabble tiles I'd take all those bets.

[Metastachydium]

See, if you were betting gold instead of scrabble tiles I'd take all those bets.

Come, now. There might be O tiles in there!



These are all separate bets, and value bets at that. Two scrabble tiles each:

I TAKE 'EM ALL!

[Tubercular Ox]

See, if you were betting gold instead of scrabble tiles I'd take all those bets.

https://i.imgur.com/yiuIwbo.png



I TAKE 'EM ALL!

I'll give you a zyqxuwy if none of them come true.

[KorvinStarmast]

Tarquin, Ian, and everyone else associated with Elan's plan to defeat Tarquin is going to miraculously appear in a way that screws the pooch and everyone is going to get segregated into plot-sized chunks.

The plot-sized chunks, where necessary, will be forced to cooperate because of the hostility of the Final Dungeon.

Team Negotiator: Redcloak, Durkon, Minrah, and Belkar. Belkar is going to break the ice with Redcloak the same way he broke it with Serini. Worlds will be saved.

Team This Is Your Life: Monster in the Dark, Oona, Greyview, O-Chul, Lien. The Monster in the Dark's allegiance will go on trial. O-Chul is the prosecution, Oona is the defense. I expect O-Chul to win, but subversion is a heavy possibility here.

Team Odd Couple: Xykon and the Quinton will be together long enough for a few jokes and then Xykon will kick the dog somehow by killing the Quinton.

Team Oh Shoot, I Think I'm Out of Scrabble Tiles: V and Tarquin will be together. V will be called away. Sabine will agree to free V from the comfy chair if V kills Tarquin. V will kill Tarquin and then be dragged away for V's third timeout. The power of Lawful Evil will prevent the fiends from compelling V to finish the timeout he escaped. V will return in the nick of time. We will find out whether Outsiders are absorbed into their plane or regenerated somewhere else after losing all their hit points.

The story from this point will be a race for the gate where everyone is absolutely convinced they have to keep moving to accomplish their objectives. I don't see Roy on any of those teams, nor Haley. Might want to rethink this one.

[Metastachydium]

I don't see Roy on any of those teams, nor Haley.

Of course not. They'll be off making all those children you predicted they'll have together.


I'll give you a zyqxuwy if none of them come true.

And then I'll do what, exactly? Hit you with that ffffish?

[Tubercular Ox]

I don't see Roy on any of those teams, nor Haley. Might want to rethink this one.

I'm not predicting that those are the only teams. Of the remaining teams, one has V in it and the others don't. That's going to dictate the kind of story they have.

Roy is going to be there when Xykon is defeated and has a better chance of getting catharsis out of it if V isn't there. OTOH, taking down Xykon is one day V can save after coming out of the comfy chair. Haley is going to be near Elan. I would say Elan is going to be near Tarquin, but Tarquin is an extreme value bet so I don't want to hitch any more to it.

Serini, Sunny, and Mimi are ciphers. No idea what they're going to do.

None of this is static. It's going to be like BRITF where teeny tiny groups meet up and separate, meet up and separate. If this is an actual bet instead of just getting a load off my mind, I would say each team existing for any length of time is a win for me, whether or not any of the other teams exist at the same time.

[Kish]

None of this is static. It's going to be like BRITF where teeny tiny groups meet up and separate, meet up and separate. If this is an actual bet instead of just getting a load off my mind, I would say each team existing for any length of time is a win for me, whether or not any of the other teams exist at the same time.
Now that would be a bet too vague to consider taking even if it was in gold. Do you declare victory if there's one strip in which the only characters are the creature in the darkness, Oona, Greyview, O-Chul, and Lien? If there's one panel in which those characters all appear and no others do?

[brian 333]

I will take any bet that violates, 'Tarquin never appears on panel in this comic again.'

One 1984 (authentic, {scrubbed}!) Internet, and twenty quatloos says that we never see Tarquin on page again.

Reason: he already got his ending. Elan said he does not matter any more. The story is not, nor has it ever been, about Tarquin and the Vector Legion.

I'm going to bed we see the winged buffalo before we see Tarquin again.

[Sir_Norbert]

Reason: he already got his ending. Elan said he does not matter any more. The story is not, nor has it ever been, about Tarquin and the Vector Legion.

I wonder where Elan said this. I've looked back over the last pages of BRITF without finding it. And in #938 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html) Elan seems to be pretty clear that Tarquin, and more specifically the situation of the people under his tyranny, does matter.

It's just that stopping Xykon is the main plot, and Tarquin isn't part of that any more.

But I absolutely expect that by the end, we'll find out what happens to Tarquin and co. (And this is a serious prediction; I don't want to be ignored just because I made a silly joke prediction a few pages back.)

I am baffled by the number of people who say "we definitely won't see Tarquin ever again because STORY STRUCTURE!" The lesson Elan learned in BRITF, stated clearly in #938, is that people matter more than story structure. And Rich has set things up so that we, his readers, care about the fate of those people.

[KorvinStarmast]

Of course not. They'll be off making all those children you predicted they'll have together.

Works for me. :smallsmile: Their kids will be both smart and good looking, strong and dexterous. :smallcool:

[Tubercular Ox]

Now that would be a bet too vague to consider taking even if it was in gold. Do you declare victory if there's one strip in which the only characters are the creature in the darkness, Oona, Greyview, O-Chul, and Lien? If there's one panel in which those characters all appear and no others do?

I'm sorry, I meant the whole paragraph to be meta, but we can turn it into a bet: There will be at least one "scene" where two characters get together for one exchange, then separate again, similar to the scene with Belkar, V, and Bugsby's cat-retrieving hand. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html) I put scene in quotes because it's intentionally vague, but a single strip unquestionably counts.

https://i.imgur.com/NKOdX7E.jpg


I wonder where Elan said this. I've looked back over the last pages of BRITF without finding it. And in #938 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html) Elan seems to be pretty clear that Tarquin, and more specifically the situation of the people under his tyranny, does matter.

You also have the last author's note in Utterly Dwarfed:

Everything that’s going to happen will happen in the next book. This is it. The finale. The end of the story. Will Xykon be defeated? What happens with the Snarl? Or the Godsmoot? Will Durkon persuade Redcloak? What are those three fiends up to? What’s Belkar’s final fate? What exactly is the Monster in the Darkness? What just happened to O-Chul and Lien? What is Elan’s secret plan to defeat Tarquin? When will Vaarsuvius’ remaining time in the Lower Planes be used? Which obscure things that you’ve forgotten about will end up being crucial to the resolution? Which seemingly important things will turn out to be deliberate feints that don’t matter at all? Who lives happily ever after? Who dies happily ever after? Is there objective meaning to our lives or do we construct that meaning from the stories that we tell and are told? How many pages can actually fit in a perfect binding paperback, anyway?

That’s a lot of questions, and a big part of how I approach the next book is going to be determined by the need to fit all of those answers into a story that is nonetheless fun and exciting and means something.

I quote the whole thing because it's important context for understanding the bold part. It makes me bite my nails and I definitely would not have mentioned Tarquin without it.

[brian 333]

https://i.imgur.com/NKOdX7E.jpg

Yes, you can bet Monopoly Money. I'm not sure of its exchange rate versus gps, quatloos, or any other imaginary currency.


You also have the last author's note in Utterly Dwarfed:
I quote the whole thing because it's important context for understanding the bold part. It makes me bite my nails and I definitely would not have mentioned Tarquin without it.

The author specifically asks which questions will be answered and which will not. I believe Tarquin's horrible ending was his final appearance in the comic. I could be wrong. Want to bet that picture of play-money against my imaginary currency on it?

[Ruck]

There are certainly ways Tarquin's story could be resolved without him ever appearing on the page again. There are extremely many ways Tarquin's story could be resolved without him coming back to screw up the main plot. Frankly, the nature of Tarquin's role in the story, vs. what he thinks is his role in the story, demands narratively that he not be able to affect the main plot again.

[Tubercular Ox]

The author specifically asks which questions will be answered and which will not. I believe Tarquin's horrible ending was his final appearance in the comic. I could be wrong. Want to bet that picture of play-money against my imaginary currency on it?

Absolutely!

In the last sentence, he mentions "the need to fit all of those answers into a story," but I highly doubt the question about how many pages fit into a perfect binding is actually going to be answered, even though it does have an answer you can look up. He mentions seemingly important things that don't matter, but also crucial things you've forgotten about. Elan's plan is after what happened to O-Chul and Lien, but before Vaarsuvius' time in the lower planes.

I'm not pretending there's anything obvious in that, just explaining why I bite my nails.

[brian 333]

I bite my nails too, but that's because those nail clippers keep breaking.

Tha Author is well able to tell his story his way, and narrative conventions be damned, but I thought Tarquin's last appearance was the perfect ending for the character. At that point Elan came to terms with the fact that Tarquin would never be the father he fantasized about, and that Tarquin was not important to the quest. He left the resolution of the Evil Empires' subplot to the characters involved in that subplot and moved on.

Tarquin only ever existed in the story to give Elan a way to demonstrate his character development. For Elan to go back and have to do it all over again would serve no purpose, except perhaps to show that Elan really really meant it when he grew up. Oh, wait, we already saw that in the double-fantasy scene.

So, I bet 20 internets against a digital picture of a Monopoly $500 that Tarquin will not be seen on page again, except as a flashback as told by one of the Sandsedge crew about his defeat.

Edit: and now I realize this post virtually guarantees that Tarquin will become The Vessel that Sabine is retrieving. Crap.

[KorvinStarmast]

Frankly, the nature of Tarquin's role in the story, vs. what he thinks is his role in the story, demands narratively that he not be able to affect the main plot again. Leaping on board this bandwagon.

[Tubercular Ox]

Tha Author is well able to tell his story his way, and narrative conventions be damned,

Apropos of nothing, I feel like everything I predict counts as an expectation at best, and something that would not surprise me at worst, and when authors intend to subvert expectations, they still need to set them first. I really wish there were a way to permanently say I am not trying to outsmart Rich, I am trying to let Rich outsmart me.


Edit: and now I realize this post virtually guarantees that Tarquin will become The Vessel that Sabine is retrieving. Crap.

The up side of not reading closely is that I can re-read the strip any number of times and still enjoy it. The down side is stuff like this.

If it makes you feel better, this could wreck an earlier bet. If Tarquin gets taken to Hell, Sabine, V, and Tarquin can interact without Tarquin visiting the Final Dungeon, and Sabine releasing V for vengeance on Tarquin is what I'm really after.

EDIT: I've got more.

One Reading Railroad says Roy and Haley will fight the Monster in the Dark, then refuse to fight the Monster in the Dark, because it is a child.

I'll bet Baltic Avenue on Belkar sacrificing himself for the greater good, getting shuffled into a decent afterlife under the Darth Vader rule, then refusing to be resurrected because he would have to live up to his alleged character growth if he went back, and it wouldn't be guaranteed he can return to the tolerable afterlife.

I'm also extremely attracted to the idea that Belkar gets eaten by the Snarl, but no bet.

And I've got Broadway and Park Place on Kraagor's Gate being a circle or pattern on the ground.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm also extremely attracted to the idea that Belkar gets eaten by the Snarl, but no bet. Kraagor did, so why not Belkar?

And I've got Broadway and Park Place on Kraagor's Gate being a circle or pattern on the ground. Like what Redcloak stepped over a few strips ago? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1278.html) (Panel 5)

[Ruck]

I'll bet Baltic Avenue on Belkar sacrificing himself for the greater good, getting shuffled into a decent afterlife under the Darth Vader rule, then refusing to be resurrected because he would have to live up to his alleged character growth if he went back, and it wouldn't be guaranteed he can return to the tolerable afterlife.

Baltic's one of the cheap ones, right? If all conditions have to be met, I'll take that, since I don't think Belkar will have the opportunity to be resurrected. Possibly because...


Belkar gets eaten by the Snarl


And I've got Broadway and Park Place on Kraagor's Gate being a circle or pattern on the ground.

While it's just a story and may not be accurate, what little we've seen of the rift there (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) indicates a vertical rift, and the gate has to be built around the rift, so I'm comfortable taking that bet.

[Peelee]

I'll bet that we don't see Belkar's afterlife at all, regardless of how he kicks it.

[brian 333]

I'll bet that we don't see Belkar's afterlife at all, regardless of how he kicks it.

I back that bet with a wooden 10 army piece from Risk. It is sitting on Siam, so I bet Siam that he dies doing the right thing for the right reason and it doesn't occur to him he could have avoided doing it

[Tubercular Ox]

Kraagor did, so why not Belkar?
If I bet every idea I had, we'd be here forever and most of them would contradict each other. That would detract from the thread. So I already picked Belkar goes to an afterlife, not also going to pick Belkar eaten by the Snarl.

One completely arbitrary assumption I'm using to pick my bets is, when possible, go for the happy ending. Belkar getting into an afterlife would be the happy ending, so I'm betting it instead of him being eaten by the Snarl. I'm expecting to be wrong about a significant number of these because I know my assumptions are biased.


Like what Redcloak stepped over a few strips ago? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1278.html) (Panel 5)

Yes, that is a circle or pattern on the ground, but I don't think it's Kraagor's Gate in disguise. I'm very happy to see it in the story and it suggests that there are ways I can lose the Kraagor's Gate bet without being put out, but "Kraagor's Gate is a circle or pattern on the ground" would be my favorite. Maybe there will be a circle or pattern around Kraagor's Gate.


While it's just a story and may not be accurate, what little we've seen of the rift there (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) indicates a vertical rift, and the gate has to be built around the rift, so I'm comfortable taking that bet.

D'oh. I now feel dumb, but I will honor the bet. And I'm not hopeless, because that picture does not look to scale.

[woweedd]

I'll bet that we don't see Belkar's afterlife at all, regardless of how he kicks it.

Taking that bet. In fact:
2 Quartaloos on the last we hear from Belkar, after he goes down in some great act of self-sacrifice to save the party, something that would have been unthinkable to the selfish bastard we met all those years ago, is a vague scream, emenatimg across the Astral from Linbo that sounds a lot like "WHAT? I've been Chaotic Evil my whole life!"

[Edreyn]

If Belkar HAS to die, perhaps the worst punishment gods can to do him is to send him to Good afterlife, especially if he wants evil one.
Just imagine our poor halfling locked for eternity with all those moronic do-gooders, unable to hurt anyone. Not even allowed to fight (or join) evil adventurers that sometimes visit.
I can't imagine worse fate for him.

Not sure I believe it enough to place a bet, especially I already placed one that Belkar will not die at all.

[Peelee]

If Belkar HAS to die, perhaps the worst punishment gods can to do him is to send him to Good afterlife, especially if he wants evil one.


There's no evidence that anyone, much less Belkar, actually wants an evil afterlife. They sound thoroughly unpleasant.

[Edreyn]

I am familiar with Planescape, but who says evil afterlife must be same in Oots world? Big fire below - that's Xykon's fear, not Belkar's. I doubt Belkar has many skill points in Knowledge (Planes). He might imagine Abyss as the place where he will butcher defenseless petitioners for eternity.
In any case, I was talking about Upper Planes - pretty sure those will torment him with boredom... forever.

[Peelee]

I am familiar with Planescape, but who says evil afterlife must be same in Oots world?

The author.

Because I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.
The purpose of the afterlives is to make everyone a clone of the same alignment. For this to work, the alignment presumably has to match to start with.

You are free to come up with your own headcanon that goes against what the author explicitly says is the case. And you are free to make bets on how the story will progress based on said headcanon. And I am going to take every one of those bets. :smallamused:

[brian 333]

The author.

The purpose of the afterlives is to make everyone a clone of the same alignment. For this to work, the alignment presumably has to match to start with.

You are free to come up with your own headcanon that goes against what the author explicitly says is the case. And you are free to make bets on how the story will progress based on said headcanon. And I am going to take every one of those bets. :smallamused:

I bet 3 million Imperial Credits (cr3,000,000) that someone will quote Peelee and make a bet that has nothing to do with the quoted text.

[Edreyn]

My main bet is still that Belkar won't die at all. :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

I bet 3 million Imperial Credits (cr3,000,000) that someone will quote Peelee and make a bet that has nothing to do with the quoted text.
Imperial credits don't work out here.

My main bet is still that Belkar won't die all. :smalltongue:
Oracle hasn't been wrong yet. I'll take that bet.

[brian 333]

Imperial credits don't work out here.

Depends on which Empire. My credits are from the Traveller Universe, not the Disney one.

[Tubercular Ox]

Like what Redcloak stepped over a few strips ago? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1278.html) (Panel 5)

Proxies on pogo sticks, I'm slow. Team Evil is going to step on a circle or pattern on the ground and get teleported to the final dungeon. That's what I'm looking for, so going to bet now the Monster in the Dark says something about it, eventually. Maybe not as they go through. Maybe not until the denouement.

I've had no time to think about this one.

[Edreyn]

Wait, I know!
Belkar will go to Lower Planes, but the surroundings will be set the way to make him feel that he is on Upper Planes. Many innocents (illusions) around and he can't slaughter them all.
This way all conditions are met.

[Metastachydium]

If Belkar HAS to die, perhaps the worst punishment gods can to do him is to send him to Good afterlife, especially if he wants evil one.
Just imagine our poor halfling locked for eternity with all those moronic do-gooders, unable to hurt anyone. Not even allowed to fight (or join) evil adventurers that sometimes visit.
I can't imagine worse fate for him.

Technically, one of the few things we do know about Celestia is that its inhabitants totally get to fight stuff just strong enough to challenge them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html).


Imperial credits don't work out here.


Depends on which Empire. My credits are from the Traveller Universe, not the Disney one.

"These are not the imperial credits you are looking for!"

[brian 333]

"These are not the imperial credits you are looking for!"

I bet one quatloo that that is the most humorous Star Wars reference of the day.

Forget it, here's your quatloo. You've earned it.

[Peelee]

https://media.tenor.com/FznHbwHlar4AAAAd/my-disappointment.gif

[brian 333]

https://media.tenor.com/FznHbwHlar4AAAAd/my-disappointment.gif

Please accept my humblest and most abject apologies. My contrition, as great as it may be, can in no way assuage the immense disappointment which I have participated in inflicting upon you. I accept whatever retribution you deem appropriate to the severity of my offense.

Would a fine of 50 Imperial Credits suffice?

[Peelee]

Please accept my humblest and most abject apologies. My contrition, as great as it may be, can in no way assuage the immense disappointment which I have participated in inflicting upon you. I accept whatever retribution you deem appropriate to the severity of my offense.

Would a fine of 50 Imperial Credits suffice?

Ten thousand, all in advance.

[Provengreil]

Wait, I know!
Belkar will go to Lower Planes, but the surroundings will be set the way to make him feel that he is on Upper Planes. Many innocents (illusions) around and he can't slaughter them all.
This way all conditions are met.

The Giant's quote is pretty direct...It's hot skewers for Belkar unless he crosses the line to neutral at the last minute (not unthinkable, and someone around here even has it as a signature). There's no personalized afterlives, which means no ironic hells.

Given that I don't think Belkar can balance his scales at this point, his only way out of the torture is via the snarl's oblivion instead. I find this fairly likely, given that resurrection has been stated to be off the table.

[Kish]

I will, at this point, be surprised if Belkar goes to an evil afterlife. Or is devoured by the Snarl.

[Edreyn]

I will, at this point, be surprised if Belkar goes to an evil afterlife. Or is devoured by the Snarl.

If not survive, not evil afterlife and not devoured, then what will happen?

Redemption? If that's what will happen, I'll be upset. I like Belkar as evil (and yet funny) character and making him good will ruin all this.

[Metastachydium]

I bet one quatloo that that is the most humorous Star Wars reference of the day.

Forget it, here's your quatloo. You've earned it.

Sweet! I've always wanted to have one of those! (Now, what stupid bet should I squander it on? Hm.)

[Kish]

If not survive, not evil afterlife and not devoured, then what will happen?

Redemption? If that's what will happen, I'll be upset. I like Belkar as evil (and yet funny) character and making him good will ruin all this.
Be upset then. It's been happening since two books ago.