Rogue/Wizard

[Stormtrooper666]

Hey

I really like the rogue and wizard class. I'm looking for any build from any rpg that is a combination of the class. Preferably a class with a name and info on how one would be played.

Also examples from movies/tv/books are appreciated

[Jay R]

In AD&D, multi-classing unrelated classes works well. With the same XPs as a 6th level wizard, you could be a 5th level wizard / 6th level Thief. No, that isn’t an 11th level character; it’s 5th level for some things and 6th level for others, and the hit points of the two are averaged.

[You have to forget everything you know about later editions to understand an AD&D multi-classed character.]

[Palanan]

In 3.5, a good option is the beguiler, which has a rogue-ish chassis with arcane casting from the illusion and enchantment schools.

In Pathfinder, your best bet is the eldritch scoundrel (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/eldritch-scoundrel-rogue/), which is a rogue with some delayed class features who gains limited wizard casting, complete with spellbook.

[Maat Mons]

Another good 3.5 option is the Unseen Seer prestige class. If the game goes on long enough, you can go onto the Arcane Trickster (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) prestige class later. The Able learner feat can make it much easier to get the prerequisites for Unseen Seer with a more Wizard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard)-heavy entry.

For Pathfinder, you could try a Sorcerer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/) with the Seeker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/seeker) archetype and either the Sage (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/mutated-bloodlines-paizo/sage) bloodline or the Shadow (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/shadow-bloodline/) Bloodline. You could also be an Arcanist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/) and pick up the Shadow Bloodline via the Blood Arcanist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/archetypes/paizo-arcanist-archetypes/blood-arcanist) archetype.

[TaiLiu]

It depends. Rogues are known for both sneak attacks and skills, while Wizards are known for their spells and versatility. You'll probably have to pick and choose which things to emphasis.

In D&D 3.5e, the Psychic Rogue is a good option. It uses psionics, not magic, but psionics means no worrying about arcane spell failure or verbal components. The Spellthief is also a good option, and lets you do something that neither the Rogue nor the Wizard can do—steal spells.

In D&D 5e, either the Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Wizard (Enchantment or Illusion), depending on what you wanna focus on. If you're willing to go third-party, Wizard (The Grey Guild) from the Complete Arcanist Handbook is an especially good option.

In Monster of the Week, everyone can Use Magic. Play the Crooked and get a good Weird score to maximize your magic skills.

[LibraryOgre]

Pathfinder has the Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue archetype (wizard-like casting in a rogue class, sacrificing a few rogue features) and the archaeologist bard (bard casting, but with a number of rogue skills).

[Quertus]

In World of Darkness (WoD), one could easily play a Mage (splat) who is a Thief (profession).


In AD&D, multi-classing unrelated classes works well. With the same XPs as a 6th level wizard, you could be a 5th level wizard / 6th level Thief. No, that isn’t an 11th level character; it’s 5th level for some things and 6th level for others, and the hit points of the two are averaged.

[You have to forget everything you know about later editions to understand an AD&D multi-classed character.]

So, there are two options in AD&D: play a non-human multi-class (afaict, that’s what’s described here), or play a human dual class.

For the latter, you advanced in one class at their regular pace, gaining the full benefits of that class. Then you switch classes, losing all benefits except HP*, and advancing as a 1st level character in your new class.

You regain the abilities of your old class a) when you advance in level in your new class to over the level in your old class; b) when you’re willing to sacrifice All XP for the adventure.

* and, you know, whatever items you have

[JellyPooga]

Hey

I really like the rogue and wizard class. I'm looking for any build from any rpg that is a combination of the class. Preferably a class with a name and info on how one would be played.

Also examples from movies/tv/books are appreciated

It very much depends on what, exactly, it is that you enjoy about rogues and wizards respectively and if you're talking about D&D, then which edition of those classes you enjoy those aspects from. A 3.5 Rogue, for example, can be happily enjoying swinging around a greatsword and scoring that sweet sweet Sneak Attack, but not so for the 5e Rogue, to highlight one of the many small differences/aspects that can have much greater impact on your character design and gameplay experience.

- Is it the Sneak Attack/Backstab aspect of Rogues that tickles your fancy? Their skill focus? Outlaw theme (in some editions)? Something else?
- What about Wizards? Is it just casting spells? Their studious nature? Casting prepared spells using a spellbook?
- What are you looking for in combining the two? A Wizard that works for criminal organisations? A Rogue that uses magic to assist, amplify and expand their larcenous activities? Adding extra (sneak attack/backstab) damage to your spells? A spellcaster that has a broader range of mundane skills for when their magic runs out or cannot be used?

A preference for a Class says very little about what or where, specifically, that preference actually is. What kind of character are you looking for? OR if you're looking for suggestions on what that character could be, what abilities, features and themes within the broader scope of "Rogue & Wizard" are the ones you want to showcase?

[Inevitability]

Recommending a somewhat more obscure system, Heart: the City Beneath has the Incarnadines, a sort of warlock-merchants that serve the god of greed.

Among their options are various stealth, theft, and backstab-focused abilities, but they also have several abilities that would be classified as enchantment or divination magic in D&D terms. (manipulating people to want what you want them to want, literal eyes in the back of their head).

[gatorized]

Abilities : agility intellect might perception toughness willpower 6 / 6 / 4 / 6 / 6
Talents : charm, covert, investigation, streetwise at 6, others left at 3
Powers : blending, blind 6, blink 6, cloud minds 6, darkness, illusions 6, master of disguise, quick change, vanish

This gives you a ton of layers of stealth and related bonuses that should work against most things, a cheap debuff that affects both attacks and active defenses, blink gives you an attack and an active defense for only 1 point per rank, illusions is an extremely open ended utility power, and vanish, quick change, and master of disguise together with blending make you capable of infilitrating almost any location with minimal preparation - you can even do the thing where you knock out a guard and change into his uniform in a matter of seconds, and it works in the fiction and in the mechanics. At standard power level, with the superhero starting package, you'll have 8 points left to spend. I might take an expertise or two, getting academics : spellcraft might be good, or you could bump up your ranked powers; with agility at 6 you're at the gear limit for ranged weapons. If you want more defense for cheap, you could take evasion. It mostly comes down to how much starting resolve you want, I normally take everything at half the trait cap to start and then decide what I want to specialize in. Of course there are an infinite number of possible builds, this is just an example of a trickster that focuses on stealth and misdirection.

[Quertus]

Um… @gatorized, in what system?

[gatorized]

Prowlers and Paragons ultimate

[vasilidor]

If you think a combination of Cyberpunk and Tolkien would be fun, try Shadowrun 2e. It is a non-class type game in which you pick whether or not you have magic in character creation and you can pick thief skills.
5e D&D has variations of the rogue class that gets magic if they pick the right subclass.
The Investigator is a Rogue/Alchemist hybrid class in Pathfinder 1e that is fun.
The Spell Thief from 3.5 in complete adventurer is a thief/mage merge as is the Beguiler from players handbook 2 in that same system. I don't know how well either of those play.

[Anonymouswizard]

Most point buy systems allow you to split your points however you want, speaking of which:


If you think a combination of Cyberpunk and Tolkien would be fun, try Shadowrun 2e. It is a non-class type game in which you pick whether or not you have magic in character creation and you can pick thief skills.

All characters in Shadowrun are thieves! :smalltongue: more helpfully, Shadowrun has a bunch of roles that fit under the 'rogue' archetype, and it's generally best to limit yourself to about two main roles. Off the top of my head the most 'roguey' roles are:
-Face
-Decker
-B&E expert
-Investigator

All of which bar Decker pair well with being a Magician (most Magic Decker builds will want to go Adept). At this point you invest in Handguns, get a cheap pistol and a set of very good armour, and hope it never actually comes to combat.

[vasilidor]

I have actually made characters in shadowrun who were very good at making the enemy die and not taking damage, it can be done.
Like a group of 6 ganger? No problem, Mr. turtle can just walk into the middle of them, drop his grenade and walk away.
Or my dual wielder with a grenade launcher in each hand can go 3 times before they go once...

[Anonymouswizard]

I have actually made characters in shadowrun who were very good at making the enemy die and not taking damage, it can be done.
Like a group of 6 ganger? No problem, Mr. turtle can just walk into the middle of them, drop his grenade and walk away.
Or my dual wielder with a grenade launcher in each hand can go 3 times before they go once...

I believe 5e Adepts could minmax to a ridiculous dodge skill, there's plenty of ways to do it. But you're generally not going to be minmaxing that way if you're trying to squeeze in being a magician and having thief skills (so stealth, observation, athletics, lockpicking, electronics, probably basic computer operation...).

Your Street Sam though? They should be able to dish out enough damage to take out a hideout of gangers while avoiding or soaking the return fire.

[Kurald Galain]

Also in Pathfinder, you can be a rogue 1 / wizard 3 / Arcane Trickster, which is basically a full caster with good skills, who can use his lockpicking/trapfinding/pickpocket abilities at range, and who can deal sneak attack damage with spells. That's a pretty good synergistic combo.

A variation, ninja 2 / witch 3 with seducer archetype / Arcane Trickster is all of the above plus being charisma-based (for the roguish charm) and the ability to turn invisible as a swift action; albeit with fewer skill points and no trapfinding. Alternatively, rogue 1 / ashiftah witch 3 / AT is int-based and can use a move action to become invisible each turn. HTH!

[LibraryOgre]

I have actually made characters in shadowrun who were very good at making the enemy die and not taking damage, it can be done.
Like a group of 6 ganger? No problem, Mr. turtle can just walk into the middle of them, drop his grenade and walk away.
Or my dual wielder with a grenade launcher in each hand can go 3 times before they go once...

In 3e, I made a physad who would pretty much straight up kill everyone with shock sticks.

Lots of bonus dice in sneak and clubs. He'd show up, dump combat pool into his sneak attack, do so much overflow that he basically stopped people's heart with a combat cattle prod, and then used his insane sneak score to get out of trouble.

[thorr-kan]

Since 2E AD&D is where I concentrate...

In 1E/2E, there is the ubiquitous gnome thief/illusionist, the only multi-class specialist wizard allowed under the PH rules. A lot of good synergy there. Ability bonus helps illusionist, racial thief skills bonuses are pretty good, and level limits are decent.

Less ubiquitous, but no less synergetic, is the elven mage/thief. Less spells per day, but more schools available, ability bonus helps thief skills, thief skill bonuses are good, and level limits are decent.

Late runner-up is half-elven mage/thief. No ability bonuses and racial bonuses to thief skills are minor. But they have better level limits and some good kit support if you like Dragon Magazine content.

[LibraryOgre]

Since 2E AD&D is where I concentrate...

In 1E/2E, there is the ubiquitous gnome thief/illusionist, the only multi-class specialist wizard allowed under the PH rules. A lot of good synergy there. Ability bonus helps illusionist, racial thief skills bonuses are pretty good, and level limits are decent.

Less ubiquitous, but no less synergetic, is the elven mage/thief. Less spells per day, but more schools available, ability bonus helps thief skills, thief skill bonuses are good, and level limits are decent.

Late runner-up is half-elven mage/thief. No ability bonuses and racial bonuses to thief skills are minor. But they have better level limits and some good kit support if you like Dragon Magazine content.

And don't forget the 2e bard; they may not be the thief a thief is, but they can keep up with a mage for several levels (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2G41ziMZwsNpMw4wS-e02edilKgVHY4zzPD46HgSqg/edit?usp=sharing) as spellcasters.

[Quertus]

Since 2E AD&D is where I concentrate...

Late runner-up is half-elven mage/thief. No ability bonuses and racial bonuses to thief skills are minor. But they have better level limits and some good kit support if you like Dragon Magazine content.

2e is best RPG. :smallbiggrin:

Tell me more about these Dragon Magazine 1/2-Elf Mage/Thief kits.

[thorr-kan]

And don't forget the 2e bard; they may not be the thief a thief is, but they can keep up with a mage for several levels (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2G41ziMZwsNpMw4wS-e02edilKgVHY4zzPD46HgSqg/edit?usp=sharing) as spellcasters.
I was concentrating on "rogue" as "thief" for 2E, as many do...

Iffen you want to expand that to the entirety of the rogue group, your options increase exponentially! Bard is one of my go-to PCs. Anybody can play "horny bard." A spell-casting, potion-making, neighborhood-healing, wrastlin' half-orc bard? Now that is a bard with some class.


2e is best RPG. :smallbiggrin:

Tell me more about these Dragon Magazine 1/2-Elf Mage/Thief kits.
It certainly can be!

Dragon Magazine #214's article on half-elf kits. For mage/thief, guild mage (THIEF guild mage!) and prestidigitator (My hand is quicker than Your eye).

Also, an index of 90% of 2E's kits:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.frp.dnd/c/rL3rBC4GvY0?pli=1

[LibraryOgre]

I was concentrating on "rogue" as "thief" for 2E, as many do...


You don't have to pick the lock if you picked the warden's pocket. ;-)

[thorr-kan]

You don't have to pick the lock if you picked the warden's pocket. ;-)
You don't have to pick the warden's pocket, if you can convince the warden it's a good idea...:smallcool:

[Spore]

One thing I enjoy from Soulsgames like Elden Ring is that they really show you how important the following are to a character:

1) some access to a melee weapon because you'll run out of arrows, and you'll run out of spells/mana, but you never run out of stab or punch. Pair this with some defensive spells and/or swiftness of foot (aka dodging) and you have a good basis for minion fights.

2) sneaking is viable but some targets and bosses you cannot sneak from. You can get spells to aid you in secretiveness, but it cannot be EVERYTHING you do.

3) range is often king. If you like ambushes, and the situation calls for wizardry, you can do worse than either a long range single target spell OR a surprise AoE to murder the henchmen.

And while the game neither has classes nor much stealth, I would call the following a staple for a Wizard/Rogue.

Short Sword, Catalyst/Spell tool, light armor, utility spells (no fall damage, invisibility, faster dodging, invisible attack spells), some single target ranged options (often referred to as cantrips), a long range spell, a reliable AoE spell. HP and MP potions. Some sort of "get out of jail free card" like a homeward bone, a potion of gaseous form, a potion of fly. a scroll of recall.

[Anonymouswizard]

You don't have to pick the warden's pocket, if you can convince the warden it's a good idea...:smallcool:

You don't need to convince the warden it's a good idea if you have Passwall memorised :smallwink:

[LibraryOgre]

You don't need to convince the warden it's a good idea if you have Passwall memorised :smallwink:

Or Knock.

The 2e Bard really is the outlier of all D&D bards.

[Jay R]

In D&D 3.5e, I would consider a Rogue with a 1-level dip in wizard or sorcerer, with a focus on disguise self, silent image, and mage hand. I would also take Precocious Apprentice in order to cast invisibility or knock.

Then I'd max out Use Magic Device.

[xRazoZane]

In DND 5e I love to combine the Arcane Trickster Rogue with the Bladesinger Wizard

[Jay R]

Or Knock.

The 2e Bard really is the outlier of all D&D bards.

Giggle. Nobody can out-lie most D&D bards.

[Curbludgeon]

The Temporal Raider out of Chronomancer is a 2e mage kit which grants backstab and thief skills. The adjacent class Temporal Champion does something similar, granting THAC0 like a fighter. Both sacrifice a number of spells, but still gain levels at the mage rate.