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SangoProduction
2023-05-05, 07:15 PM
Preamble: I'll update my original opinion. Spheres of Guile definitely fulfils what it was intended to be... except for being its own independent set of spheres. A lot of the talents feel like "I'll dip this for a build" rather than "This is my build." Herbalism most egregiously of all of them. That's generally fine... until you segregate the spheres from the others, into its own independent system. Which once again supports my idea that I'll just wrap it into Spheres of Might.
Regardless, I've tried to give the spheres a good once-over and try to highlight what seems like the most promising spheres, because they are going to get reworked. I think Artifice is a good candidate.

Post-Review Analysis: There's an awful lot of "Yeah, you could already do that," style of talents. But also a few gems in the rough. Overall, I think I'm just going to wait for the errata, as this is just kinda souring me on the system.
But, the good trinkets really did impress. And then I got to the list of trinkets and went "where are the rest?"
Yeah, spend like 3 or 4 talents here, and you've got everything you could realistically want.


(1) Superb: You always want this if it's relevant to you. And it probably is.
(1.5) Really Good: Particularly useful bits of kit, but aren't quite must-haves. (Kept it decimal, because spreading out Good so far from Superb felt unrepresentative. But I needed a step between)
(2) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds. Among your first picks.
(3) Usable: Doesn't hurt to have. Wouldn't go out of your way for it.

(4) No: It technically has a use, but the cost to take simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.
(5) Never: There’s no non-trivial reason to pick it up, from its mechanics.
(6+) Harmful: Taking/using this is actively detrimental to your character.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
[Square brackets] indicate a reliance on the group (players or DM) or campaign you’re playing in, and how well it does in those select groups.

Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(?) Unrated: I choose not to rate it. Often because it is just so far out of my wheelhouse, or it’s far too ambiguous.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
(D) D***bag: Used for when your character wants to be a D***bag.

Associated Skill: any Craft or Artistry. Both background skills, but particularly selections are more useful than others.

Trinket: For one minute's work, create a temporary mundane object associated with your sphere package (using the item's normal [or reasonable] crafting dc). Lasts for an hour/level.
Basically a kinda bad Creation sphere effect, but it's nonmagical, and as long as you can associate it with the package, it works.

Cobbled Creation (1): Adapt this approach as a swift action, in order to make the items as a full-round action, and they last for 1 round / level. Lets you not only move the trinket from narrative time to (potentially) combat time, but also to rushed narrative time (like being chased, or rushing out of a collapsing dungeon).

You also get your choice of package.

Artwork (4, F): Save for social intrigue, or heist campaigns, this will get virtually no use. Outside of RP. And that's honestly not a bad place to put it... if it were a utility talent.

Fabrication (1): Of the available packages, this is the most useful, because it's the least restrictive. Your trinkets can include the various adventuring gear items, and tools. Forget to bring a ladder? Make one yourself. (Still makes me just want to play Creation sphere, but again, this is nonmagical.) Oh, and you can make free masterwork tools for just +5 to the DC. So spend [party level] minutes of prep time in order to give everyone +2 to stealth for [level] hours. Which doesn't scale, but also basically doesn't cost anything, and is flexible to every single skill.

Gear (?): I'm honestly confuzzled by what it's attempting to enable. So, you can create objects that "damage objects or surfaces" like a drill or saw, or that can be worn, or be used as improvised weapons. Except.. everything can be used as improvised weapons. So, I think that it means that you can just create weapons. And the DC+5 to create a crappy weapon is to just like... install a crossbow into someone's shoes. Or to allow stilettoes to function as stilettoes. (Letting your greatsword+pick cobbled weapon be fragile has very light synergy with Barroom sphere. Although I've not yet seen a good reason to use the talents.)
The armor deal is functionally pointless, as everyone will already have their own, if they wanted it. Typically same thing for weaponry, but sometimes people just forget that "hey, flying creatures exist" or "hey, not everything is going to melee you" or "Did you seriously forget your damned bludgeon? Here's a stick, go beat up the skeleton."

[B]Greater Trinkets (1+): Trinkets last 8 hours, unless speed up, can create complex items without DC increases, and reduce the action cost of Cobbled Creation by 1 step. Great. Except that it says that it sets the duration to 8 hours, with no allowance for when you're above level 8. Again, a strange design decision. Or oversight.
Alright, after actually reading the trinket talents, I am bumping this up to tier 1, hands down. Because let's be honest, getting more than 8 hours of duration isn't too important. But going from 1 hour to 8 hours is insanity, and lets your 1-minute-creation-time trinkets all be prepared ahead of time. So in that typical 1 hour prep time that everyone gets, you now have 60 trinkets, which will probably be up for the fight. So now, it's a matter of drawing your trinkets rather than making them, because you have them prepared in every configuration you could want for the day. And if you don't, you can in a full round action, or a couple minutes' retreat.

True Artist (1.5): Doubles the flourishes you can add to an item you make. Pretty good.


Secret Project (2): In essence, it lets you take 10 on a craft check to make something worth up to 10xlevel gold pieces, and reveal what exactly that thing is, at the moment you need it. That's unironically pretty useful, if remarkably gold restricted. But otherwise, it's even more flexible than Cobbled Creation.

Sizeable Trinkets (3): Increase potential trinket size by +1 without using Enlarge person, or the various other size increases for yourself to do so.
Nebulous Functionality (3) Basically, it's cobbled construction, but as a swift action. Which is neat. It does also grant a [plan] slot.

Reinforce Material (5, F): Protects items from deterioration and sundering, and adds hp to it. If this was a utility talent, it would still be low rated, on account of being functionally pointless.

Expanded Artifice (F): You would only pick this up for the flavor, as Fabrication is the only really useful package. I honestly petition for the other packages to just be utility talents. And to simply have a variant/drawback that lets you swap out the Fabrication effect for those utility talents.

Field Repair (6): The temp HP granted is better than Creation sphere's Repair (which isn't good either, but isn't its own talent). But it's temp hp, unless you spend a minute, and actual gold. This is a net negative to take, as unless it's some incredibly relevant thing, most GMs just let you fix up items without cost, especially when it's something your character specializes in.


Non-combative, [utility] talents are separated out here.
Magical Crafter [1]: A better, more flexible version of Master Craftsman feat, so now you can create any magical item you have the magic item creation feat for, all without a true caster level.
The value of this is entirely dependent upon the DM. Do they give out a set amount of WBL, without regard to the wealth's subjective value to the party (like a headband of wisdom to a party that doesn't use it)? Awesome, you get to recycle the WBL. Does your DM not adjust WBL in any way? Then magic crafting doubles your wealth.
On the flip side, if your DM's encounters are so easy that your wealth functionally doesn't matter, then neither does this. And if your DM "perfectly balances" your encounters such that your strength is always equal to your opponents' (plus or minus difficulty modifiers), then this is also pointless. (At least in regard to power items. It still frees up your wealth for more fun items.)
And if your DM directly adjusts WBL when you craft, then that is entirely dependent upon how they adjust it.

Influential Artistry (1.5, F): Lets you literally paint someone in a different light, and nonmagically, directly influence peoples' opinions of your subject (including yourself). And you add a new outwit mechanic, and can impart the Impressed condition, with an amazing work. Just great roleplay pieces, even if you're not actually targeting someone. Now, could a really good Perform or Craft check perhaps do something similar? You roll 57, and demand that God come down and watch you play banjo? Sure, by skill rules, but rarely does that actually happen. Also, this is unironically more accessible than [arbitrarily high skill check]. As a utility talent, I really appreciate it.


Inspiring Composition (4): It's a skill leverage battery, that takes a minute to charge from, and effectively enables you to share your own leverages with others. It does have a technical use. But man, this just feels obnoxious.

Forgery (5): In a heist campaign, this capability is actually pretty good, as it can allow you to replace a target item, and then get out, delaying the realization. But let's be real, a campaign won't just leave on an anti-climax, unless DM is just kinda bad. And it denies the players that event as well, if it was denied. So for its given purpose, it's actually not super useful. If you're committing petty theft, it doesn't matter. Paper forgeries are already handled by linguistics without a talent being used.
And even so, you could probably do this without a talent at all, as this doesn't actually add any functionality to such an attempt, and the check DC is probably exactly the same as if you had attempted this, without a talent.

Favorite Tools (5): A +1 (+1/5) bonus to using artisan tools is so absolutely worthless.


Storage Enhancement (5): You can now add pockets to women's pants. Yay! This is. Like. So totally helpful. (You could have already done that. Without the talent.) I guess you get to expressly make it water resistant. But a reasonable DM, when asked to be allowed to make your container water resistant, probably would have already said yes, as a normal part of crafting.
Artificer's Eye (5): There's almost no practical function to this talent.
Confident Craftsmanship (5): Again, almost no practical function.

Alloyed Plating (?): Lets you have an item that can have the positives, but not negatives, of materials, like with Alchemical Silver, and allows use of nonconventional materials like glass or bone (flavor, really). The gold restriction on removing detrimental effects is pretty odd, as the restriction never scales, and even as-is, most detrimental materials don't actually cost that much. And it lets you have the effects of two materials at once, taking the best parts of both. It is really everything you would want from this type of talent, and more. The problem is then the fact that special materials don't tend to really mean much.
To get a well and truly good rating, I would need to have a better knowledge of the materials available, but at the absolute very least, it's a flavor talent, and I do believe it has very good potential.

Deceptive Item (2, F): An unironically rather useful effect of disguising an item to be [not that item], with a perception DC equal to your craft check, if you took 11, rather than rolled. Weapons are obvious ones. Pull out all the spy-movie weapons, and you have a good idea of its intent. Weapons... are the most useful version of this. And it gives explicit permission to create fanciful weapons, like chinese paper fans that are actually daggers. Or scarves that are greatswords. And many DMs do require that explicit, mechanical permission to do so. Not all, but many.
But, you can have other uses, like poison disguised as a good meal, or a healing potion. Or the wall is actually a door. The obvious trap (that is easy to avoid) was actually a key. The spell book that is made to look like a mundane journal or a shield, or a scarf. Thieves tools that are just normal parts of the outfit, like a belt buckle. Component Pouches that are disguised as part of your outfit. Armor that looks like a regular outfit. The list really does just go on, and on, limited only by your imagination... and your DM's willingness to go along. And how much a deceptive item actually matters.

Sensory Protections (2): Given that, although you can only add one flourish to a singular piece of gear... but you can make as much gear as you want... Yeah, just add +2 (+1/4 lvl) to saves against clouds, vapors, gasses, sickened, nauseated, gaze attack, visual effects, dazzled, blinded, auditory or sonic effects, and deafened condition. So a bunch of conditional circumstance bonuses, but they all make thematic sense for being able to prepare for a fight.
Granted, +2 circumstance is literally the bonus you would be granted, if you just generally did something to help protect you, so what this is really doing as a talent is a) prompting you to do that preparation, and b) making it less reliant on the GM OK'ing your measure.

Stabilizing Reinforcements (4): Like Sensory Protections, but for certain CMB, CMD, and skills. Specifically: Ride (handle animal isn't what you use for staying in a saddle??), Climb, disarm, grapple, acrobatics, bull rush, pull, reposition, fly, and swim. Just generally less useful than Sensory Protection, and some of the skill enhancements are needlessly specific.

Underlying Connotations (5); I just could not care. Some minor, rare bonuses to saves.
Evocative Visuals (5): Turning an artwork into a distraction and fascination effect? Oo nice... oh. Nothing is compelling them to actually engage with the artwork? The negative effects are thus willingly self-inflicted? At best, I would say this is a flavor talent.
Comforting Design (5): 15 minutes to gain 10 temp hit points is worthwhile at level 1, and level 2. And nowhere else. [Although if retraining is easy in your game, this is a nice talent.]


(Note: I may be deflating the ratings, compared to what they deserve to be, given that you get 60 of them in the typical preparation phase. But I am almost certain something is going to get changed with that. So I'll just be assuming that you get to prepare [some reasonable amount] of them.)
Chemical Armaments (1+): You can create replicas of any alchemical items (not poisons), with just 1 minute's work. Under 25 gp / lvl. That is unironically just fine, as from level 1, you are able to grab almost every elemental damage item. I mean, just imagine your monk jumping in joy when he hears that his first 4 attacks are going to be alchemically empowered, thanks to knuckle dusters.
In addition to that, you can turn any of your trinkets into a volatile component for +10 DC (which is by no means insubstantial, but isn't excessive), to turn any trinket you made into one that is also a splash weapon, with damage of up to 2d6 (1d6/3 lvl). Which. Granted. Isn't excessively impressive... until you realize that you can just print them off, one per minute, all day, every day, and use them as weapons (not spells), which allows for things like Sniper sphere, in addition to the trinket's original purpose. So you can just throw your show into the crowd of mice, and it will explode. Or your get to throw your longsword... to make it explode. Or you can throw the alchemist's fire. But explode in shrapnel. You can give up 1d6 damage in order to have elemental coverage as well.
Seriously, this single talent gives you the flex of all the alchemical items in the book, and a cantrip that can be used as a weapon. That everyone can use as a weapon. Not just you. This is legitimately above and beyond for what I was expecting.

Defensive Equipment (3): DR 2 (+1/4) ranks. Couldn't really care. Elemental Resist 2 on taking Chemical Armaments? Neat as well. Troubling that if any of the wards you wear break (absorbing 5x lvl, which is usable enough), they all break. Which is perhaps reasonable on account of being able to just build all of them. But that's simply a risk you can take. You can also remove the defensive gear before it's destroyed, as it does have a cap of how much damage it can take per hit, that is much lower than the maximum damage it can block. Shadow Panoply (Darkness sphere) is suddenly surprisingly useful.
Again, the actual DR and ER are not truly impressive.

Mobile Defenses (?): I'll be honest. I'm having a hard time rating this in a vacuum, because I keep thinking about Creation sphere, which can just create a full 10-by-10 ft wall at level 1, with no issue, at range. Compared to that, getting a potentially 7 ft tall, 5-ft wide wall by level 7 just seems so incredibly terrible. But I am comparing magic to it. But. Still. Ugh.

Impressive Weaponry (4): Expands on your Weapon function (which can be added to any trinket), by costing +5 more DC. It's still isn't a particularly useful weapon. I would much prefer to turn the ukulele into an alchemical bomb than some half-assed crossbow.


Specifically for trinkets that are also utility talents. Feels more appropriate to separate them.
Embarrassing Satire (1+): What makes this a utility talent? It's an friendly 30-ft AoE livid (-2 to AC and pseudo taunt) or shocked (-4 reflex and will, and initiative, denying AoOs, immediate actions, and careful speech - that's right, you silence vancian casters) for a round. As a DM, I would mark this as not a utility talent.

Impressive Tools (2): A +2 bonus, that you can share, to craft/artistry. Normally would go to the dump, but, for one, Alchemy sphere exists. For two, this sphere does feature the requirement of DC-based craft checks.

Impressive Creativity (5): Has incredibly limited function, and even when it does function, it's a +2 circumstance bonus. You know. The standard bonus for doing something in the standard manner to attempt to gain an advantage.


Careful Engineer- lose trinkets. The literal one impressive part about this entire damned sphere.
Expensive parts- trinkets now cost money. How much? More than nothing, which negates one of its largest benefits: Being a bunch of free junk.
Rapid Crafter- may only craft trinkets using cobbled creation. Hell no. Like hell to the flapping no. That is such a huge loss in how much junk you can effectively have ready access to in a day. Let alone how much access your friends have.

Ramza00
2023-05-06, 09:30 AM
Oh this is for the Green Arrow / Batman users, totally makes sense now, inside my head.

Utility belt shenanigans, trick arrows, etc.

SangoProduction
2023-05-07, 05:52 PM
Oh this is for the Green Arrow / Batman users, totally makes sense now, inside my head.

Utility belt shenanigans, trick arrows, etc.

Yeah, that's how I see it as well.

Ramza00
2023-05-16, 08:03 PM
I am bumping this for I have a level 4 build figured out involving Alchemy and Artifice, plus time manipulation and ally support. This response is to motivate me to type it out (build finished, typing is not) and I will later edit it and provide the link.

I want to second SangoProduction’s intro thoughts of how SoG is merely an additional fold on top of SoM. That is my sense so far.

Also :smalltongue: I know artifice is going to get some errata, so far the sample errata play test text looks to not modify it much (a small power boost), yet I realise the futility of a moving target *laughs* 🎯

SangoProduction
2023-05-16, 11:31 PM
I am bumping this for I have a level 4 build figured out involving Alchemy and Artifice, plus time manipulation and ally support. This response is to motivate me to type it out (build finished, typing is not) and I will later edit it and provide the link.

I want to second SangoProduction’s intro thoughts of how SoG is merely an additional fold on top of SoM. That is my sense so far.

Also :smalltongue: I know artifice is going to get some errata, so far the sample errata play test text looks to not modify it much (a small power boost), yet I realise the futility of a moving target *laughs* 🎯

I look forward to the build.
But I have to admit, I wasn't in love with the small bits that I've seen of the errata document. Just nothing that really excites. But I didn't look to hard into it.

Seerow
2023-05-16, 11:36 PM
I look forward to the build.
But I have to admit, I wasn't in love with the small bits that I've seen of the errata document. Just nothing that really excites. But I didn't look to hard into it.

"Nothing that really excites" is basically the definition of Spheres of Guile, and their new tech thing as well.

SangoProduction
2023-05-17, 01:04 AM
"Nothing that really excites" is basically the definition of Spheres of Guile, and their new tech thing as well.

I.... I really hate that I cannot disagree.
I am such an unrepentant fanboy of Spheres.