UA Weapon Masteries need to scale with warrior level

[Mastikator]

One thing I noticed about the weapon masteries is that they don't really scale at all. Instead they offer the full benefit immediately at level 1. This means that once again they're good on a full classed warrior, and even better on a half caster or full caster who has extra attack like bladesinger.

Another kinda sucky thing is that they don't get much better at higher level.

I think it's kinda lame that a bladelock can dip 1 level of fighter and more or less steal a fighter's schtick.

What I think should be altered is the following:


Half martials like ranger and paladin get weapon mastery at half rate, IE 1 at level 2, then a second at level 11 (IMO warlocks should be full casters and not get weapon mastery even if they're bladelocks)
masteries get better at higher levels, I'd go with cantrip scaling. 5, 11, 17. These however do not count the character level but only warrior levels. And half-warriors like ranger and paladin instead count as half (rounded up).
For example a fighter 6/barbarian 4 counts as warrior 10. A ranger 10 counts as warrior 5. A ranger 4/barbarian 6 counts as warrior 8. And a wizard 9/fighter 1 counts as warrior 1.


Works as is up to level 4.
At level 5 the conditions change, now the other target just needs to be within striking distance of you, not 5 feet adjacent to each other.
At level 11 you can cleave through once more once per turn, IE if there are 3 creatures you cleave into the second AND third the first time you cleave.
At level 17 you cleave through unlimited times once per attack action. IE if you're surrounded by 8 enemies the first time cleaves into ALL of them.


Flex is bad and should be entirely reworked IMO. I'm not going into how to scale it.

Graze is pretty good, but once you have 20 in your attacking ability score it only scales with number of attacks. I'd actually neft it.
Level 1-4 you can only use the graze effect once per attack action. Meaning if you are a paladin or bladesinger with this and have extra attack and miss both attacks only one graze damage effect is applied. And it doesn't apply to reaction or bonus action attacks.
Level 5, graze is applied to all attack rolls
Level 11, once per turn graze can apply rider effects such as battlemaster maneuvers, smites such as from eldricht knight, and any bonus damage from a magic weapon
Level 17, graze can apply rider effects, smites and magic weapon damage to all misses

At level 1 it's fine as is, but I'd like more stuff at higher levels, provided you have two nick weapons, one in each hand:
Level 5 you can use your bonus action to gain a +1 AC until the start of your next turn
Level 11, your bonus action also adds +1 to your strength, dex and con saves for the same duration
Level 17, when you use your bonus action to raise your AC you can also make a second off-hand weapon attack

I like push, it's fun
Level 5, increase max pushing distance to 15
Level 11, allow two size categories larger, but they can make a strength save DC 8 + your proficiency + your strength mod to resist
Level 17, increase max pushing distance to 25

Sap seems like it's best used to make attacks against different targets since it only applies once
Level 5, applies disadvantage on the next 2 attacks
Level 11, applies disadvantage on the next 3 attacks
Level 17, applies disadvantage on the next 4 attacks

This one is easy to scale IMO
Level 5, reduces by 15 instead of 10
Level 11, can be applied twice to same target
Level 17, can reduce target speed to 0

This is a really fun ability, but I fear it will drag down the game. IMO it should have the same limitations as the push mastery. And it should be useable only once per turn at level 1.
I'm not sure how to scale it though

This one is pretty strong, but it can be stronger.
Level 5, once per turn, if you hit a creature with an attack that had advantage, that creature has disadvantage on attack rolls against anyone but you
Level 11, same as level 5 but you apply it when you hit without advantage
Level 17, same as level 5 but you can apply it anytime you attack and even if you miss

[Boverk]

For Flex, I'm going to focus more on the versatile weapons than what Flex means, and I agree, it does need a rework.

Maybe something defensive? Versatile weapons are generally on the larger side while not being as unwieldy as a greatsword or great axe, so maybe some kind of defensive action? Blocking with a big sword is pretty common.

If held 1 hand, more damage than base, but if held 2handed, more damage + some AC?

When you attack with a Flex weapon, you have +2 AC against the next attack against you until you make another attack action (or you leave combat). You basically end your attack in a defensive stance until you go on the attack again I like the idea of a Fighter catching a fire bolt on their sword.

Your other suggestions look pretty good, but I haven't play-tested the fighter yet...also, I really want to see the other subclasses to see what they change.

[Hurrashane]

I think them improving, at least in the ways that you're presenting, makes them more fiddly in a way I don't care for. Cantrips are easy, they just get more damage. But this stuff seems like there'll be a lot of "Oh wait, I'm level x so I should/could have..." And for classes like Fighter there's a lot more to keep track of because they get so many.

I also don't mind full or half casters having to delay their spell progression to be able to utilize more than one weapon mastery. That seems like a fair trade off. Especially when a Fighter can swap them per attack at higher levels (though I feel that should come earlier, but it's a pretty good way to keep someone focused on fighter)

[Theodoxus]

I think them improving, at least in the ways that you're presenting, makes them more fiddly in a way I don't care for. Cantrips are easy, they just get more damage. But this stuff seems like there'll be a lot of "Oh wait, I'm level x so I should/could have..." And for classes like Fighter there's a lot more to keep track of because they get so many.

I also don't mind full or half casters having to delay their spell progression to be able to utilize more than one weapon mastery. That seems like a fair trade off. Especially when a Fighter can swap them per attack at higher levels (though I feel that should come earlier, but it's a pretty good way to keep someone focused on fighter)

I think coddling players via the rules is disingenuous. Folks like to point to the Champion as this bastion of super simplistic play, as if there's this vast unwashed sea of less intelligent people who just can't grok something like spells or feat chains. I, on the other hand, find people who gravitate to 'simpler' classes tend to want to relax and not overthink their choices. Not that they lack the capacity. Adding something like static rider effects to masteries isn't taxing, and would go a long way in closing the caster divide.

Since I had a similar idea to Mastikor, I'd be remiss to at least point out what I thought for Flex. The first was allowing for a different weapon damage type to be applied - flatting the blade on a battleaxe or longsword for bludgeoning, thrusting with a longsword for piercing, using the corner of a warhammer for slashing; most warhammers have a spike on the back side that never seems to be reflected in damage, but that would be an easy way to get piercing damage.

The second was to allow flex weapons an actual second mastery rider; So, Flex and Topple or Flex and Cleave, that kind of thing.

I do like the Boverk's idea for some added defense, so putting the ideas together, it might be something like:

5th: +2 AC when wielding a Flex weapon two-handed.
11th: When attacking with a Flex weapon, you can change the weapon damage type (B/P/S) to another weapon damage type (B/P/S)
17th: When attacking with a Flex weapon, you can use a second Mastery associated with that weapon.

[Hurrashane]

I think coddling players via the rules is disingenuous. Folks like to point to the Champion as this bastion of super simplistic play, as if there's this vast unwashed sea of less intelligent people who just can't grok something like spells or feat chains. I, on the other hand, find people who gravitate to 'simpler' classes tend to want to relax and not overthink their choices. Not that they lack the capacity. Adding something like static rider effects to masteries isn't taxing, and would go a long way in closing the caster divide.

Since I had a similar idea to Mastikor, I'd be remiss to at least point out what I thought for Flex. The first was allowing for a different weapon damage type to be applied - flatting the blade on a battleaxe or longsword for bludgeoning, thrusting with a longsword for piercing, using the corner of a warhammer for slashing; most warhammers have a spike on the back side that never seems to be reflected in damage, but that would be an easy way to get piercing damage.

The second was to allow flex weapons an actual second mastery rider; So, Flex and Topple or Flex and Cleave, that kind of thing.

I do like the Boverk's idea for some added defense, so putting the ideas together, it might be something like:

5th: +2 AC when wielding a Flex weapon two-handed.
11th: When attacking with a Flex weapon, you can change the weapon damage type (B/P/S) to another weapon damage type (B/P/S)
17th: When attacking with a Flex weapon, you can use a second Mastery associated with that weapon.

It's adding riders that change as you level and grow more complicated, especially with ones that say, give you a small bonus to saves for a turn. It's a lot to keep track of especially when a high level fighter can have five of them and two on a weapon. It's pretty easy now to forget things like Bless and Bane being active.

And why bother switching between BPS damage, there's only a few creatures that even care about that. And why make versatile weapons not need the shield? Shouldn't they be the kind of weapon that works best in concert with a shield? If anything flex should let you up the damage die when wielding one handed like it does, and then up the damage die when also wielding it two handed, or go old school and let you add 1.5x mod to damage when two handing. Or maybe allow it to count as finesse

[Mastikator]

It's adding riders that change as you level and grow more complicated, especially with ones that say, give you a small bonus to saves for a turn. It's a lot to keep track of especially when a high level fighter can have five of them and two on a weapon. It's pretty easy now to forget things like Bless and Bane being active.

And why bother switching between BPS damage, there's only a few creatures that even care about that. And why make versatile weapons not need the shield? Shouldn't they be the kind of weapon that works best in concert with a shield? If anything flex should let you up the damage die when wielding one handed like it does, and then up the damage die when also wielding it two handed, or go old school and let you add 1.5x mod to damage when two handing. Or maybe allow it to count as finesse

My suggestions aren't adding rider effects though. They're removing restrictions and broadening their scope as you level up.
Cleave becomes more easy to pull off, then lets you cleave further.
Graze allows for riders, magic effects to be added when you miss.
Nick gives you a defensive bonus action (since you're not using it, and probably have not much else) then eventually allows a second off-hand attack.
Push lets you push further, then allows it on huge creatures, then further still.
Sap lets you apply it on more and more consecutive attacks.
Slow increases how much you slow then, then removes restrictions like only once per creature and not down below 10.
Vex lets you taunt them conditionally and then removes conditions.

It's only really vex and graze that slightly complicate things.

[Aimeryan]

One thing I noticed about the weapon masteries is that they don't really scale at all...[snip]

I like it. I like it a lot. Problem is, this the simple edition - if it isn't +1 damage or something its too much for people to handle. The Champion needs to be able to say 'I Attack' and just roll hit and damage, nothing else.

Edit: That said, subclasses other than Champion may be able to do something like that. But printing the same thing out for each one is not great. This is the problem with have a simple subclass; the class HAS to be simple too, unless the subclass removes things - which 5e doesn't do. So, you likely only would get it on one subclass - maybe the Battlemaster if lucky.

[Mastikator]

I like it. I like it a lot. Problem is, this the simple edition - if it isn't +1 damage or something its too much for people to handle. The Champion needs to be able to say 'I Attack' and just roll hit and damage, nothing else.

Edit: That said, subclasses other than Champion may be able to do something like that. But printing the same thing out for each one is not great. This is the problem with have a simple subclass; the class HAS to be simple too, unless the subclass removes things - which 5e doesn't do. So, you likely only would get it on one subclass - maybe the Battlemaster if lucky.

TBH there should be weapon masteries that are just more single target damage, like graze, but instead apply when you hit. That would be great for a champion. Graze is really great for someone who wants to play a champion because they just need to remember that they do damage even if they miss.

The upgrade I want for graze for example relates to feats like GWM which applies proficiency bonus once per turn when you hit, if you miss each attack for some reason you could still apply it at level 11. I think that's entirely fair for a pure fighter.

Edit- but I think those "more damage" masteries need to start small and grow big. For the simple reason that a bladesinger would otherwise just snipe it with a single level in fighter and drink the fighter's milkshake.

[Hurrashane]

Edit- but I think those "more damage" masteries need to start small and grow big. For the simple reason that a bladesinger would otherwise just snipe it with a single level in fighter and drink the fighter's milkshake.

I mean if it's not on a one-handed melee weapon they can't take it and Bladesong.

[Skrum]

Non-scaling martial abilities is as baked into the design scheme of DnD as the core ability scores are. Like it's just a brainworm within the design space or something; it would be unthinkable for a fighter's ability to get better with level. That sounds like magic, and fighters don't do magic.

I of course agree with you. As cool as masteries are, and they are cool, them not getting better with level is just awful. Like how do the Warrior classes not have features at 6th, 10th, and 14th levels that alter the way their mastery effects work?

[Saelethil]

My suggestions aren't adding rider effects though. They're removing restrictions and broadening their scope as you level up.
Cleave becomes more easy to pull off, then lets you cleave further.
Graze allows for riders, magic effects to be added when you miss.
Nick gives you a defensive bonus action (since you're not using it, and probably have not much else) then eventually allows a second off-hand attack.
Push lets you push further, then allows it on huge creatures, then further still.
Sap lets you apply it on more and more consecutive attacks.
Slow increases how much you slow then, then removes restrictions like only once per creature and not down below 10.
Vex lets you taunt them conditionally and then removes conditions.

It's only really vex and graze that slightly complicate things.

I don’t think these suggestions would be too complicated for most players and would enjoy having tactically useful abilities that scaled.


I think them improving, at least in the ways that you're presenting, makes them more fiddly in a way I don't care for. Cantrips are easy, they just get more damage. But this stuff seems like there'll be a lot of "Oh wait, I'm level x so I should/could have..." And for classes like Fighter there's a lot more to keep track of because they get so many.

I also don't mind full or half casters having to delay their spell progression to be able to utilize more than one weapon mastery. That seems like a fair trade off. Especially when a Fighter can swap them per attack at higher levels (though I feel that should come earlier, but it's a pretty good way to keep someone focused on fighter)

I mean, you could just follow the cantrip model and deal an additional d4 damage whenever you hit with a weapon you’ve mastered starting around 6th (don’t need to double up on the extra attack levels) and then either add dice or increase die size as they level. I feel like its less interesting but I can’t think of any player that enjoys martials, myself included, who wouldn’t enjoy throwing more dice around.

[Theodoxus]

If someone can't handle the very minor intricacies of scaling, well, anything. Relegate them to playing a sidekick. Warrior sounds right up their alley.

Seriously. This is still coddling garbage. D&D isn't and should not be built for 4 year olds to grok. I don't want 'least common denominator' to be the standard floor of class design.

[MadBear]

If someone can't handle the very minor intricacies of scaling, well, anything. Relegate them to playing a sidekick. Warrior sounds right up their alley.

Seriously. This is still coddling garbage. D&D isn't and should not be built for 4 year olds to grok. I don't want 'least common denominator' to be the standard floor of class design.

100% agree with this.

It's not that some classes shouldn't be a bit easier to play, but that doesn't mean that an entire class needs to be simplified to the point that a trained guinea pig could play it while also eating a tiny burrito.

[ZRN]

The thing is, they sort of do "scale," especially for fighters: you get to use them twice per round at level 5, 3 times at 11, and 4 times at 18. The suggestion in this thread would create what I like to call "Quadratic Fighters," the most unbalanced class imaginable! (I kid. Sort of.)

The only thing that NEEDS to scale to maintain its relevance in 5e is damage. Only two of these masteries do damage; Graze scales a bit (if poorly), and Cleave scales with your attack damage. For the rest of them - knocking a guy over is good at level 1 and it's good at level 20. At level 1 you're letting your rogue buddy get advantage so he can sneak attack for 10 damage, and at level 20 you're letting him sneak attack for 50 damage. At level 1 your Push is knocking a 5hp goblin off a ledge, and at level 20 it's knocking a 50hp Dire Goblin Warlord off a ledge.

A downside of building more into these masteries is that the more powerful a mastery is, the more of your character's power relies on it, and the more it sucks when you can't use it - which means you're more limited in your weapon selection and your tactics. Right now, if I'm up against a dragon and I can't trip him, no big deal, I'm missing out on a few damage from Graze. With these changes, all the sudden level 20 graze with a flametongue weapon lets me do like 15 damage on a miss, meaning I'm missing out on 30DPR if I don't have Graze as one of my options on my primary weapon?

[Mastikator]

The thing is, they sort of do "scale," especially for fighters: you get to use them twice per round at level 5, 3 times at 11, and 4 times at 18. The suggestion in this thread would create what I like to call "Quadratic Fighters," the most unbalanced class imaginable! (I kid. Sort of.)

The only thing that NEEDS to scale to maintain its relevance in 5e is damage. Only two of these masteries do damage; Graze scales a bit (if poorly), and Cleave scales with your attack damage. For the rest of them - knocking a guy over is good at level 1 and it's good at level 20. At level 1 you're letting your rogue buddy get advantage so he can sneak attack for 10 damage, and at level 20 you're letting him sneak attack for 50 damage. At level 1 your Push is knocking a 5hp goblin off a ledge, and at level 20 it's knocking a 50hp Dire Goblin Warlord off a ledge.

A downside of building more into these masteries is that the more powerful a mastery is, the more of your character's power relies on it, and the more it sucks when you can't use it - which means you're more limited in your weapon selection and your tactics. Right now, if I'm up against a dragon and I can't trip him, no big deal, I'm missing out on a few damage from Graze. With these changes, all the sudden level 20 graze with a flametongue weapon lets me do like 15 damage on a miss, meaning I'm missing out on 30DPR if I don't have Graze as one of my options on my primary weapon?

Barbarians and fighters can change a mastery on a long rest, so if you find a flametongue without mastery then you are only one long rest away from it. And fighters can change a flametongue scimitar into a graze weapon starting level 7. A barbarian can't though, they'd be stuck with the scimitar's nick, so it would only be good if they happened to take feats that make two weapon fighting good. (two weapon fighting style feat and dual wielder feats are very good on barbarians in the UA. And being able to make two off-hand attacks at 17 with a flametongue would be really sick on a barbarian)

[Theodoxus]

Hopefully said barbarian doesn't find the flametongue scimitar at 17th level after building everything towards using a maul... or, the DM allows retraining at such a late point in the campaign.