PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Hunter Class (peach) my take on a spelless Ranger (no more link)



Saelethil
2023-05-07, 01:18 PM
I've been compiling notes on what I would want out of a spelless Ranger for a while now and settled on a highly mobile tracker, skirmisher, and wilderness expert with the opportunity to excel at non-wilderness skills for those wishing to play as a bounty hunter or some other non-wilderness themed hunter. When I started I was kind of just mashing abilities from other classes together and while there is still a bit of that I think it's developed its own character and playstyle. I did a quick DPR check (which was likely full of errors, math isn't my strong suit) and it looks like a low optimization Hunter was about on par with a low optimization rogue. I haven't yet tried thoroughly optimizing it yet to compare to a high-op martial but I expect it to be a bit behind which seems balanced by high utility and mobility.

One of my goals was to make sure every level was worth taking, that's not to say it wouldn't multiclass well with any number of other classes but I wanted there to be enough features that were worth taking throughout the classes progression. Did I over do it? That's a distinct possibility. Is its combat efficacy going to vary substantially based on the number of short rests that can be expected at any given table? Well that's a yes... but that can be mitigated by talking to your GM at session 0 or by tripling the SR resources or by regaining some of them when you roll initiative against an enemy. Anyway, hope y'all like it. Any feedback would be appreciated.


Hunter

A gnomish scout guides a small group of warriors through treacherous wilderness, directing their companions when the trail is uncertain and gesturing when there is something nearby that ought to be avoided. When the villain is within their line of sight they observe quickly and report to their party, explaining the strengths & weaknesses intuited at range. With this valuable intel they are able to set up an ambush, quickly incapacitating a deadly foe.
A Dwarven bounty hunter armed only with a bow and his bare hands examines a faint scrape on the wall of a cave. He ***** his head slightly before immediately dodging out of the way as a large blade swings down at him. Bruising himself off he re-examines the mark on the wall and continues his pursuit of his target. The following day he corners his target behind a trick wall deep beneath a mountain, quickly knocking his target from one wall to the other before being able to apply shackles and knock him unconscious.
An elf sits meditating in a tree as an owl slowly materializes in her lap. Immediately following this she distributes a handful of healing herbs and berries before walking into what the entire party knew to be a trap. However, she knew that they would be able to avoid setting off the trap for long enough to make the trap irrelevant. Hopefully impressing upon the regional minions that surrender was the only option that left them with breath in their lungs.

Expert Outlander
Hunter is a malleable concept, do they track down dangerous criminals that have retreated beyond the bounds of civilization, or a mutated beast that has been terrorizing a small town in the middle of the night?
Being able to track their prey is only the beginning of what a Hunter is and ought to be capable of. The most important secondary skills of a hunter are to be able to kill or incapacitate their prey and avoid the wrath of whatever they are hunting once their target feels that there is no escape. They learn to move and strike with speed and precision while maneuvering themselves so as to be able to step back without leaving an opening lest the predator become the prey. Next to finding and dealing with their prey before their prey kills them, another important ability in the toolbelt of a Hunter is the ability to tell at a glance what a creature's strengths and weaknesses are so that they and their companions can eliminate the threat as efficiently as possible.
Many with the training of a Hunter do less hunting than one might imagine, choosing instead to use their understanding of how the predators of the deep woods track and ambush to avoid being tracked or ambushed, this makes them exceptional scouts.

Creating a Hunter
As you create your hunter character, consider the nature of the training that gave you your particular capabilities. Did you train with a mentor, wandering the wilds together until you mastered the ways of the hunter? Did you leave your apprenticeship, or was your mentor slain‚ perhaps by a creature that crept into camp unnoticed? Or perhaps you learned your skills as part of a larger order of Hunters that maintained a tenuous relationship with a druidic circle, trained in mystic paths as well as wilderness lore after swearing an oath not to abuse your new skills. You might be self-taught, a recluse who learned to track, strike, and avoid reprisal through the necessity of surviving in the wilds.
What led to your dedication to hone your skills as predator and prey? Did a monster kill someone you loved or destroy your home village? Or did you see how much destruction can be wrought by one man and dedicate yourself to ridding the world of its vilest inhabitants? Is your adventuring career a continuation of your work in protecting the edge of civilization from the ever encroaching wilds, or a significant change? What made, or could make, you join up with a band of adventurers? Do you find it challenging to teach new allies to always keep their attention on their surroundings, or do you welcome the distraction they bring from the internal conflict you’ve wrestled with for far too long?


Class Features
As a Hunter, you gain the following class features:

Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8 per hunter level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per hunter level after 1st

Proficiencies
Armor: Light, medium, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Saves: Strength and Dexterity
Skills: Choose four from Animal Handling, Acrobatics, Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival
Languages: Choose any two languages.



Level


Prof.

Features

C.P. Uses


Hunter's Bonus


W.S. Speed Increase



1


+2

Chosen Prey, Expertise

1 + Wis. mod


1d4


-



2


+2

Skirmisher

1 + Wis. mod


1d4


-



3


+2

Hunter's Council

2 + Wis. mod


1d4


-



4


+2

Ability Score Improvement, Wild Swiftness

2 + Wis. mod


1d4


+5



5


+3

Extra Attack

3 + Wis. mod


1d6


+5



6


+3

Outlander's Advantage, Keen Observation

3 + Wis. mod


1d6


+5



7


+3

Council Ability

4 + Wis. mod


1d6


+5



8


+3

Ability Score Improvement, Greater Mobility

4 + Wis. mod


1d6


+10



9


+4

Expertise

5 + Wis. mod


1d8


+10



10


+4

Ability Score Improvement, Greater Skirmisher

5 + Wis. mod


1d8


+10



11


+4

Council Ability, Chosen Prey Improvement

6 + Wis. mod


1d8


+10



12


+4

Ability Score Improvement, Wild Swiftness Improvement

6 + Wis. mod


1d8


+15



13


+5

Preternatural Awareness

7 + Wis. mod


1d10


+15



14


+5

Evasive

7 + Wis. mod


1d10


+15



15


+5

Instinctive Reliability

8 + Wis. mod


1d10


+15



16


+5

Ability Score Improvement, Untouchable

8 + Wis. mod


1d10


+20



17


+6

Chosen Prey Augmentation

9 + Wis. mod


1d12


+20



18


+6

Council Ability

9 + Wis. mod


1d12


+20



19


+6

Ability Score Improvement, Field Guide

10 + Wis. mod


1d12


+20



20


+6

Apex Predator

10 + Wis. mod


1d12


+25




Chosen Prey (CP)
As a bonus action, choose a creature that you can see or hear or that you have traces of, whether that be tracks, blood, a scrap of fabric torn from a garment, or some other physical trace. While your attention is on a creature using this feature you gain the following benefits:

You have advantage on all ability checks made to locate the creature.
You score a critical hit when you roll a 19 and a 20 against your Chosen Prey.
Once per turn when you hit a Chosen Prey with a weapon attack or an unarmed strike the attack deals additional damage to the creature as shown in the “Hunter's bonus” column of the hunter table. Even if you have multiple creatures marked you can only apply this bonus damage to one attack per turn.
You can only focus on a number of creatures = to your Wisdom modifier at a time and your focus on a creature lasts for a number of hours equal to your Hunter level per use.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to half your Hunter Level (rounded up) + your wisdom modifier and regain all expended uses when you complete a short or long rest.

Expertise
At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
At level 9, you can choose 2 more of your proficiencies to gain this benefit.

Skirmisher
Beginning at 2nd level, when a creature moves within 15 feet of you, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. You can also make this movement whenever you roll for Initiative, whether or not there is an enemy within 15 feet of you.
Additionally, you can take the dash or disengage action as a bonus action.

Wild Swiftness
Beginning at 4th level, your movement speed increases by 5 feet and moving through non-magical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through non-magical plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard.

Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Outlander’s Advantage
Beginning at 6th level, while you are conscious, you and all allies within 10 feet of you add your Hunter’s Bonus to all ability checks made using the Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival skills.

Keen Observation
You are capable of picking up on details in how a creature moves and interacts with its surroundings, giving you insight into its traits and capabilities. Beginning at 6th level, while you have a Chosen Prey that you can see you can learn one of the following:

Whether the creature’s current HPs are higher or lower than yours.
One of the creature's resistances, immunities, or vulnerabilities.
The creature's highest or lowest ability score.
The creature's AC.
Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again until you have observed the creature for an additional 10 minutes unless you have hit the creature with an unarmed strike or weapon attack. Once on each of your turns when you hit a chosen prey with a weapon attack or unarmed strike you can make a DC 10 wisdom check as a part of the attack. On a success you learn another piece of information about them. The DC of this check increases by 5 after each success and resets back to 10 after 10 minutes have passed from the initial observation.

Greater Mobility
Beginning at 8th level, you are able to cover more ground in more ways. Your Wild swiftness speed increases from 5 to 10 feet and you gain swim and climb speeds equal to your walking speed.

Greater Skirmisher
Beginning when you reach 10th level, you gain the ability to take a second reaction every round. This additional reaction can only be used on the Skirmisher ability you gained at 2nd level.
Additionally, whenever you roll for initiative you can add one roll of your Hunter’s Bonus die.

Chosen Prey Improvement
When you reach 11th level you have become a more skilled hunter. You now add your Hunter's Bonus damage to every attack you make against your Chosen Prey and you now crit on an 18, 19, and 20 against your Chosen Prey.
Additionally, you regain 1 use of your CP when you roll initiative against an enemy and once per turn you can deal your Hunter's Bonus damage to a creature that is not your Chosen Prey.

Wild Swiftness Improvement
Beginning when you reach 12th level, you gain an uncanny sense of when things nearby aren’t as they should be, giving you an edge as you evade danger. Your Wild Swiftness movement speed increases from 10 to 15 feet and when you roll for Initiative you roll with advantage.
Additionally, you have advantage on Dexterity saving throws against effects that you can see, such as traps and spells. To gain this benefit, you can’t be blinded, deafened, or incapacitated.

Preternatural Awareness
At this point in your progression the things you hunt wield many unnatural abilities. Starting at 13th level, you gain Blindsight out to a range or 30 feet, If you already have blindsight the range increases by 30 feet.
Additionally, you cannot be surprised.

Evasive
When you reach 14th level, you become more difficult to harm and harder to pin down. When a creature attempts to shove or grapple you or you are caught in an Area of Effect ability (such as a dragon’s fire breath or the circle of death spell) you can focus your energy into avoiding the effect. When you do so you expend 1 use of your Chosen Prey and reroll the ability check or saving throw.

Instinctive Reliability
Beginning at 15th level, whenever you roll for initiative or make an ability check benefiting from Expertise you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.

Untouchable
You continue improving in speed and the ability to avoid damage. Beginning when you reach 16th level your Wild Swiftness speed increases from 15 to 20 feet.
Additionally, when your Chosen Prey hits you with an attack you can use your reaction to reduce the damage by an amount equal to half your Hunter Level (rounded up) + your wisdom modifier.

Chosen Prey Augmentation
Reaching level 17 has brought you near the pinnacle of the natural hierarchy. You now crit on an 17, 18, 19, and 20 against your Chosen Prey and when you take the attack action and make both attacks against the same Chosen Prey you can make a 3rd attack against the same Chosen Prey.
Additionally, on your first turn in combat, you may make 1 additional attack as long as that attack targets a creature that has not yet taken a turn.

Field Guide
By 19th level your party has grown more capable of discerning the quick directions and signals you give them. The range to which your allies can benefit from Outlander’s Advantage increases to 30 feet. If you already have a feature from this class that increases the range of Outlander’s Advantage, instead of setting it to 30 feet it is tripled.
Additionally, when you complete a Short Rest you reduce your exhaustion level by 1 and you can make a DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check for each of your allies who are resting within 30 feet of you to also reduce their exhaustion levels by 1.

Apex Predator
When you reach 20th level you become the Apex Predator of nearly every region you find yourself in. You gain the following benefits:

You are resistant to all Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage.
When you use the reaction granted to you by Skirmisher you can make an attack with advantage. This attack can only be made once per round, even if you use both of your reactions on Skirmisher.
Your Wild Swiftness speed increases from 20 to 25 feet.
You gain expertise in 2 more skills.


Hunter’s Councils

Council of The Pack Master
Those with the instinct or training for the Council of The Pack Master find themselves directing the flow of combat with the responsibility for the wellbeing of your allies that this power entails.

Master of the Pack
Beginning when you choose this council at 3rd level, you learn to direct your allies to the weak points of your Chosen Prey. While your Chosen Prey is active and you are capable of communication (whether that be signal, speech, or something else), any ally that can see or hear you can add your Hunter's Bonus damage to one weapon attack or unarmed strike against your chosen prey on each of their turns.
Additionally, you can take the Help action as a bonus action.

Confident Demeanor
You compose yourself with an air of confidence that your allies find calming, allowing them to focus on taking care of themselves and each other. Beginning when you choose this council, whenever you and any allies within 30 feet of you complete a short rest, you and your allies regain additional HP equal to one roll of your Hunter’s Bonus + half your Hunter level (rounded up).

Leader’s Call
Beginning at 7th level, when you roll initiative or as an action or bonus action on a subsequent turn you can encourage a number of allies within 30 feet of you equal to half your Hunter level (rounded up). You and these allies gain temporary HP equal to 1 roll of your Hunter's Bonus die + your Wisdom modifier. Each of these allies can immediately use their reaction to move up to half their movement speed.
Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again until you complete a short or long rest unless you expend 1 use of your CP as a part of the additional use.

Call to Aggression
Beginning at 11th level, the reaction granted by your Leader’s Call also allows your chosen allies to attempt to Shove a creature within range.

Ranging Guide
Beginning when you reach 11th level, the range to which your allies can benefit from your Outlander’s Advantage increases to 30 feet.

Call to War
Beginning when you reach 18th level, you gain a second use of Leader’s Call and the reaction granted to your allies allows them to make a weapon attack or unarmed strike in place of the Shove granted by Call to Aggression. These attacks deal additional damage equal to your Hunter’s Bonus.


Council of The Moon
The Council of The Moon draws those most in tune with their animalistic side and its members will often find themselves leading any charge that their allies might be making.

Beastial Form
When you choose this council at 3rd level you embrace your bestial side, gaining the following benefits:

Your maximum HP increases by 3 and you gain 1 additional HP for every additional level you take in this class.
Your Unarmed Strikes deal your choice of Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage equal to your Hunter's Bonus and when you take the attack action you can make 1 unarmed strike as a bonus action.
You can Shove or Grapple as a bonus action.
Your armor class while you are not wearing armor or wielding a shield becomes 13 + your choice of your Constitution or Wisdom modifier.
You can speak with Beasts without requiring a spell.


Beastial Fortitude
Beginning at 7th level, you gain Proficiency in Constitution saving throws.
Additionally, your unarmed strikes are considered magical for the sake of overcoming resistances and your unarmored AC increases to 14 + Wis. or Con. modifier.

Dire Form
Beginning when you reach 11th level, whenever you hit your Chosen Prey with a melee attack you can force the creature to succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC = 8 + PB + your Str. mod). On a failure they are either knocked prone or pushed 10 feet away from you.
Additionally, you now have advantage against the charmed and frightened conditions and your unarmored AC increases to 15 + Wis. or Con. modifier.

Primal Embodiment
Beginning when you reach 18th level, when you take the attack action you can attack 3 times instead of 2 and the distance you can jump is doubled.
Additionally, as a bonus action you can regain HP equal to half your maximum. Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again until you complete a Short or Long Rest.

Council of The Primeval
Those belonging to the Council of The Primeval have learned to supplement their general capacities with druidic magics.

Woodland’s Ally
When you choose the Council of The Primeval you learn the Find Familiar Spell which which is considered a druid spell for you and does not require material components for you. When you cast find familiar using this feature your familiar is fey and when your familiar takes damage you can use your reaction to take the damage instead. When you do so you take Psychic damage instead of the original type.
Additionally, you now know the druidic language.

Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, you augment your instinctive capacities with the ability to cast druidic spells. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the druid spell list.

Cantrips
You learn 2 cantrips of your choice from the druid spell list. You learn another druid cantrip of your choice at 10th level.

Spell Slots
1/3 caster progression (like an eldritch knight, just with Druid spells instead of Wizard)

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher
You know three 1st-level druid spells of your choice. The Spells Known column of the Council of The Primeval Spellcasting table shows when you learn more druid spells of 1st level or higher.
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the druid spells you know with another spell of your choice from the druid spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Spellcasting Ability
Spell save DC = 8 + your PB + your Wis. modifier
Spell attack modifier = your PB + your Wis. modifier

Ritual Casting
Spellcasting Focus


Beastly Ally
By the time you reach 7th level your connection to your familiar grows stronger. As a bonus action you can command your familiar to take the attack action.
When your familiar attacks you can use your spell attack modifier or the beasts attack modifier (whichever is higher) and it deals damage equal to 1 roll of your Hunter’s Bonus die + your Wisdom modifier.

Primeval Warrior
You continue intertwining druidic magic with your martial capacities. Beginning at 11th level, when you take the attack action you can replace one of your attacks with one of your druid cantrips.
Additionally, when your Chosen Prey is damaged by one of your druid spells they take additional Hunter’s Bonus damage of the same type as the spells damage.

Primeval Conduit
When you reach 18th level you can feel primeval magic coursing through you. Whenever you complete a short rest you can recover a 1st level spell slot.
Additionally, as a bonus action you can teleport to the location of your familiar as long as you are within 100 feet of it.

Saelethil
2023-05-17, 12:51 PM
I’m not sure whether the lack of responses means nobody’s interested, it’s unsalvageable, or it’s perfect. I’d prefer to believe its option 3 but that seems unlikely.

Calen
2023-05-17, 02:04 PM
The link appears to be going to your computer.
Copy pasting to the forum itself would probably get more response.

Saelethil
2023-05-17, 02:07 PM
Thanks, I was hoping to avoid redoing the tables but if that’s what I have to do I’ll try to make time this evening

Saelethil
2023-05-17, 08:34 PM
Alright, no more link. I shortened the casting section of the Council of The Primeval since I figured we all would have a general understanding of 1/3 casting progression but the rest is there.

IChosePoorly
2023-05-18, 02:31 PM
Only skimmed so far, but I like what I'm seeing! One question:



Chosen Prey (CP)
As a bonus action, choose a creature that you can see or hear or that you have traces of, whether that be tracks, blood, a scrap of fabric torn from a garment, or some other physical trace. While your attention is on a creature using this feature you gain the following benefits:


If I find a trace, do I know as soon as I encounter that creature that THIS ONE, RIGHT HERE, is my Chosen Prey? Can I pick the orc who dropped his leftover mutton two miles back out of a lineup of orcs? (Not a criticism if so; that's kinda cool - but I'm not sure if it's what you were going for.)

Calen
2023-05-18, 02:46 PM
My initial thoughts.

Skirmish: "when you roll initiative and when a creature moves within 15 feet of you" unclear (at least to me) is this a first turn bonus only? Or is this something that you could use every round? Greater Skirmisher answers this(?) but better clarity would help.

Outlander's Advantage: The second aspect seems a little cheese-able. The Battlemaster version makes this a little slower. Maybe once you have analyzed a creature this way there is a cool down before you can analyze that creature again?

Wild Swiftness Improvement: There are a lot of bonus's to Initiative in the class.

Chosen Prey Augmentation: My gut reaction is that this is a little strong. Assuming that you will always have a CP in every combat (which seems likely at this level) that is quite the bonus. I would suggest skipping the crit bonus or maybe spending a CP charge to use the extra attack?

Councils

Leaders Call: Seems a bit OP. Replace Ranging Guide with the Temp HP person of the skill?

Bestial Fortitude: That is, potentially, a lot of AC. Mitigated by how MAD you would have to be so I'm not sure.

Primeval Warrior: Clarity again. "Once per turn deal bonus damage equal to your Hunter's Bonus. This damage is the same as the damage dealt by the spell."

I have spent a lot of time looking at non-magic ranger rewrites. I think this is the one that I will be recommending from now on.
Well done!

Saelethil
2023-05-18, 07:46 PM
Wow! Thanks for all the feedback!


Only skimmed so far, but I like what I'm seeing! One question:

If I find a trace, do I know as soon as I encounter that creature that THIS ONE, RIGHT HERE, is my Chosen Prey? Can I pick the orc who dropped his leftover mutton two miles back out of a lineup of orcs? (Not a criticism if so; that's kinda cool - but I'm not sure if it's what you were going for.)

Good question. The answer is... kind of? If you track one orc and find a group of identical orcs you might still have to make some kind of check (probably Insight or Survival) to figure out which one but outside of that very specific scenario you would know.
That wasn't what I was going for but I do kind of love that visual.


My initial thoughts.

Skirmish: "when you roll initiative and when a creature moves within 15 feet of you" unclear (at least to me) is this a first turn bonus only? Or is this something that you could use every round? Greater Skirmisher answers this(?) but better clarity would help.

The intention is for you to be able to use it automatically whenever you roll initiative as well as on subsequent turns when a creature moves within 15 feet of you. I agree that the wording isn't very clear. Maybe:

"When a creature moves within 15 feet of you, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. You can also make this movement whenever you roll for Initiative, whether or not there is an enemy within 15 feet of you."
I was trying to be concise but I think that I ended up reducing word count and losing some clarity


Outlander's Advantage: The second aspect seems a little cheese-able. The Battlemaster version makes this a little slower. Maybe once you have analyzed a creature this way there is a cool down before you can analyze that creature again?

Yeah, I wasn't sure if that would be too much. The trouble I was running into is that I want them to be able to use it more than once during an encounter but I don't really like that within a minute of stealthy observation you could know a good chunk of its stat block.
Maybe: "Once every minute and on every turn that you hit the creature with a weapon attack or unarmed strike"?


Wild Swiftness Improvement: There are a lot of bonus's to Initiative in the class.

This is true. I felt like it was pretty in theme but its also one of the features that I aped from another class. If its too much I'm not opposed to cutting the "Advantage on Initiative" portion of this feature but I'm not sure if this is a criticism or just an observation.


Chosen Prey Augmentation: My gut reaction is that this is a little strong. Assuming that you will always have a CP in every combat (which seems likely at this level) that is quite the bonus. I would suggest skipping the crit bonus or maybe spending a CP charge to use the extra attack?

The additional expansion of the crit range and the additional attack are both things I was kind of unsure of. My line of thinking is that you need to spend one use of your CP for each creature you want to target (unlike hunter's mark you can't transfer it when your prey is dead) and in the campaigns I play in and run we face a lot of groups of enemies in combat and we usually have 2-3 combats between short rests so there would be a good chunk of enemies that the Hunter wouldn't have as a Chosen Prey. However, I know that that isn't necessarily the norm and I think it would be fine for the 3rd attack to cost a CP.


Councils

Leaders Call: Seems a bit OP. Replace Ranging Guide with the Temp HP person of the skill?

This is the feature that my friend thought was a bit much as well. He thought that the movement your allies make shouldn't be immune to AoO. I was kind of resisting changing it after only one person had taken a look but it seems he is not alone and I recognize its a strong feature. I would be fine with dropping the Temp HP (or moving it to "Call to Aggression") or allowing AoO on the allies.
I really like Ranging Guide so I would prefer not to mess with it unless I really needed to.


Bestial Fortitude: That is, potentially, a lot of AC. Mitigated by how MAD you would have to be so I'm not sure.

I figured that the MADness created enough trade off. How hard you hit, your HP, and how many times you can mark a Chosen Prey are all fighting over the top 3 scores, not to mention that whether you're attacking with Str. or Dex. the non attack one is still going to be something you don't want to fully dump. I could be convinced that it's too much but I'm not there yet (not to say that after some more thinking I won't get there).


Primeval Warrior: Clarity again. "Once per turn deal bonus damage equal to your Hunter's Bonus. This damage is the same as the damage dealt by the spell."

Good catch. That's an easy one to fix too.


I have spent a lot of time looking at non-magic ranger rewrites. I think this is the one that I will be recommending from now on.
Well done!

I'm glad you like it! As you can tell it still could use some tweaking but I had fun making it and will continue to enjoy polishing it. Thanks for the feedback, its really helpful and I look forward to your thoughts on my proposed changes!

Calen
2023-05-19, 03:17 PM
Follow up.
Skirmisher: "When a creature moves within 15 feet of you, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. You can also make this movement whenever you roll for Initiative, whether or not there is an enemy within 15 feet of you." is, I think, spot on for clarity and conciseness.

Outlanders Advantage: Maybe have a cap that you can learn from each chosen prey. Half Proficiency Bonus rounded down maybe. You could then learn information quickly, but not the whole stat card.

Initiative bonus's This was an observation mostly. Wondering how it would stack up with all the other classes and subclasses that have bonus's and how far ahead they might be.

Chosen Prey Augmentation: Some math for average damage a turn. Assume a +5 in the attacking stat at this point. With crits factored in.
Rogue: 10d6+5 crits on a 20=36.75 damage.
Fighter: 1d12+5x3 crits on 18+=39.15 damage.
Hunter no CP: 1d8+5x2 crits on 20=19.45
Hunter with CP: 1d8+1d12+5x3 crits on 17+ = 54.6
Hunter with CP: 1d8+1d12+5x3 crits on 18+ = 42.6
Hunter with CP: 1d8+1d12+5x2 crits on 17+ = 31.0

Assuming I did my math right here... your non-CP attack is well below other classes. If half your attacks are against chosen prey then the CP attack as written now would average 37.025 with the basic attack. So my gut was wrong, unless someone wants to come along and correct me. :P

Saelethil
2023-05-28, 12:58 PM
Follow up.
Skirmisher: "When a creature moves within 15 feet of you, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. You can also make this movement whenever you roll for Initiative, whether or not there is an enemy within 15 feet of you." is, I think, spot on for clarity and conciseness.

Done. I think that wording is good.


Outlanders Advantage: Maybe have a cap that you can learn from each chosen prey. Half Proficiency Bonus rounded down maybe. You could then learn information quickly, but not the whole stat card.

New thought:
"Additionally, while you have a Chosen Prey that you can see you can learn one of the following:
Whether the creature’s current HPs are higher or lower than yours.
One of the creature's resistances, immunities, or vulnerabilities.
The creature's highest or lowest ability score.
The creature's AC.
Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again until you have observed the creature for an additional 10 minutes unless you have hit the creature with an unarmed strike or weapon attack. Once on each of your turns when you hit a chosen prey with a weapon attack or unarmed strike you can make a DC 10 wisdom check as a part of the attack. On a success you learn another piece of information about them. The DC of this check increases by 5 after each success and resets back to 10 after 10 minutes have passed from the initial observation."
[/LIST]


Initiative bonus's This was an observation mostly. Wondering how it would stack up with all the other classes and subclasses that have bonus's and how far ahead they might be.
I would imagine that they would end up just going first in most combats, which the base class will get you pretty close to anyway, so putting too many build resources toward that gimmick seems like it would have diminishing returns pretty quickly.


Chosen Prey Augmentation: Some math for average damage a turn. Assume a +5 in the attacking stat at this point. With crits factored in.
Rogue: 10d6+5 crits on a 20=36.75 damage.
Fighter: 1d12+5x3 crits on 18+=39.15 damage.
Hunter no CP: 1d8+5x2 crits on 20=19.45
Hunter with CP: 1d8+1d12+5x3 crits on 17+ = 54.6
Hunter with CP: 1d8+1d12+5x3 crits on 18+ = 42.6
Hunter with CP: 1d8+1d12+5x2 crits on 17+ = 31.0

Assuming I did my math right here... your non-CP attack is well below other classes. If half your attacks are against chosen prey then the CP attack as written now would average 37.025 with the basic attack. So my gut was wrong, unless someone wants to come along and correct me. :P

That's close to what I was getting so I'm glad to see I wasn't going crazy. thanks for the feedback. I made some changes above and appreciate any additional thoughts.

Kane0
2023-05-28, 04:46 PM
I have spent a lot of time looking at non-magic ranger rewrites. I think this is the one that I will be recommending from now on.
Well done!

Paladinn would probably be interested, though im not sure if he frequents the homebrew forum.

JNAProductions
2023-05-29, 01:31 PM
Chassis
1d8 seems a lil' low for HP, but maybe this is more Rogue than Ranger?
Medium armor, cool.
Martial weapons, cool.
Str and Dex saves, okay.
Four skills-more than Rangers currently get, but also missing out on magic, so should be fine.
Bonus languages-neat!

Chosen Prey
At level 5, it lasts for 5 hours. You have 2-7 uses, and they recover on a SHORT rest.
You can keep this up continually without an issue... I'd either make it more limited, or, if it's essential, just make it at-will.
The listed bonuses aren't too much-though the crit on 19s is nice for Paladin multiclasses.

Expertise
Neat.

Skirmisher
Is this intended to be better than the Scout Rogue's Skirmisher? Mechanically it seems fine, but it irks me that it's just flat-out better.

Wild Swiftness
Neat.

Extra Attack
Standard. Though, quick question: If you have two Chosen Prey around, can you do the bonus die of damage to each of them? Once per turn per foe? Or is it once per turn, period?

Outlander's Advantage
Adding 1d6 (scaling up as you level) to Perception and Stealth is really good. Nature and Survival are nice to have, but not as big a deal.
Maybe add some resource usage here? Sorta like Bardic Inspiration.

Greater Mobility
Neat.

Expertise
Minor formatting thing-you should have Expertise appear only once in the class features text, and just state that you get two at level one and two more at nine.

Greater Skirmisher
On the one hand, that's pretty potent.
On the other, it's also pretty cool and mobile.
I'm slightly worried about getting an extra reaction (even a limited one) but I like the idea.

Chosen Prey Improvement
Seems fine to me.

Wild Swiftness Improvement
Neat.

Preternatural Awareness
Might be a touch much, but probably not breaking anything.

Evasive
See above about Chosen Prey usages. But mechanically as-is now, totally fine.

Instinctive Reliability
Going first basically always (2d20b1+Dex+1d10, min of 10 on the 2d20b1) is... Really nice. But this class is limited in how it can take advantage of it in abusive ways, so as a level 15 feature, I don't see an issue.
Potential issues with Gestalt or similar, but that's not something you have to keep in mind baseline.

Untouchable
Neat.

Chosen Prey Augmentation
So, let's say I have two Chosen Prey within range.
I attack one each-do I get a third attack?

Likewise, I have three Chosen Prey within range. I attack one, then the other-can I make a third attack against the last Prey?

Field Guide
Neat.

Apex Predator
This increases your attacks per round from three (two base, one extra from Augmentation) to five, two of which have advantage, in most cases. That seems excessive, especially given the rest of the feature.
I would remove the second bullet point entirely, but leave the rest as-is.

Pack Master
Master Of The Pack
This is a good chunk of extra damage, but it also encourages teamwork. I'm of mixed opinions on this one.

Confident Demeanor
Neat.

Leader's Call
Considering how many uses of CP you get, this reads as practically at-will.

Call To Aggression
Neat.

Ranging Guide
Oki.

Minor note-there's a LOT going on at level 11 in this class.

Call To War
Neat.

Council Of The Moon
Bestial Form
Feels a little overtuned. Maybe drop the AC bit for this level? Or nix the bonus action attack until later?

Bestial Fortitude
I wouldn't increase AC like that yet.

Dire Form
Rest feels fine, but again, AC improvements feel a little much.

Primal Embodiment
This feels pretty overtuned.

Primeval
Woodland's Ally
Neat.

Casting
I'm assuming it's EK/AT casting tables?
I would not allow for ritual casting baseline, but otherwise seems fine.

Beastly Ally
Neat.

Primeval Warrior
This feels a little much.

Conduit
I like it.

Overall Thoughts
It feels a bit overtuned.

Looking at a Moon Hunter, level 20, you get...

3 main action attacks of 2d12+Str Mod
1 bonus action attack, same
2 reaction attacks, same, but with advantage

This assumes you target Chosen Prey, but compare to a Fighter.

4 attacks of 2d6+Str Mod

They can benefit from GWM, admittedly, and GWF, but the Hunter also crits even better than a Champion.

Hunter average damage, if all hit and no crit and Str Mod is +5, is 108.
GWM Champion average damage is only 88... And they have a worse hit modifier.

Early levels I think are fine, but the upper end needs to be reigned in.

With all that said! I think you did some really cool stuff here, especially with mobility and support. Looking forward to seeing it refined further. :)

Saelethil
2023-05-29, 09:54 PM
Chassis
1d8 seems a lil' low for HP, but maybe this is more Rogue than Ranger?
Medium armor, cool.
Martial weapons, cool.
Str and Dex saves, okay.
Four skills-more than Rangers currently get, but also missing out on magic, so should be fine.
Bonus languages-neat!

Chosen Prey
At level 5, it lasts for 5 hours. You have 2-7 uses, and they recover on a SHORT rest.
You can keep this up continually without an issue... I'd either make it more limited, or, if it's essential, just make it at-will.
The listed bonuses aren't too much-though the crit on 19s is nice for Paladin multiclasses.

Expertise
Neat.

Skirmisher
Is this intended to be better than the Scout Rogue's Skirmisher? Mechanically it seems fine, but it irks me that it's just flat-out better.

Wild Swiftness
Neat.

Extra Attack
Standard. Though, quick question: If you have two Chosen Prey around, can you do the bonus die of damage to each of them? Once per turn per foe? Or is it once per turn, period?

Outlander's Advantage
Adding 1d6 (scaling up as you level) to Perception and Stealth is really good. Nature and Survival are nice to have, but not as big a deal.
Maybe add some resource usage here? Sorta like Bardic Inspiration.

Greater Mobility
Neat.

Expertise
Minor formatting thing-you should have Expertise appear only once in the class features text, and just state that you get two at level one and two more at nine.

Greater Skirmisher
On the one hand, that's pretty potent.
On the other, it's also pretty cool and mobile.
I'm slightly worried about getting an extra reaction (even a limited one) but I like the idea.

Chosen Prey Improvement
Seems fine to me.

Wild Swiftness Improvement
Neat.

Preternatural Awareness
Might be a touch much, but probably not breaking anything.

Evasive
See above about Chosen Prey usages. But mechanically as-is now, totally fine.

Instinctive Reliability
Going first basically always (2d20b1+Dex+1d10, min of 10 on the 2d20b1) is... Really nice. But this class is limited in how it can take advantage of it in abusive ways, so as a level 15 feature, I don't see an issue.
Potential issues with Gestalt or similar, but that's not something you have to keep in mind baseline.

Untouchable
Neat.

Chosen Prey Augmentation
So, let's say I have two Chosen Prey within range.
I attack one each-do I get a third attack?

Likewise, I have three Chosen Prey within range. I attack one, then the other-can I make a third attack against the last Prey?

Field Guide
Neat.

Apex Predator
This increases your attacks per round from three (two base, one extra from Augmentation) to five, two of which have advantage, in most cases. That seems excessive, especially given the rest of the feature.
I would remove the second bullet point entirely, but leave the rest as-is.

Pack Master
Master Of The Pack
This is a good chunk of extra damage, but it also encourages teamwork. I'm of mixed opinions on this one.

Confident Demeanor
Neat.

Leader's Call
Considering how many uses of CP you get, this reads as practically at-will.

Call To Aggression
Neat.

Ranging Guide
Oki.

Minor note-there's a LOT going on at level 11 in this class.

Call To War
Neat.

Council Of The Moon
Bestial Form
Feels a little overtuned. Maybe drop the AC bit for this level? Or nix the bonus action attack until later?

Bestial Fortitude
I wouldn't increase AC like that yet.

Dire Form
Rest feels fine, but again, AC improvements feel a little much.

Primal Embodiment
This feels pretty overtuned.

Primeval
Woodland's Ally
Neat.

Casting
I'm assuming it's EK/AT casting tables?
I would not allow for ritual casting baseline, but otherwise seems fine.

Beastly Ally
Neat.

Primeval Warrior
This feels a little much.

Conduit
I like it.

Overall Thoughts
It feels a bit overtuned.

Looking at a Moon Hunter, level 20, you get...

3 main action attacks of 2d12+Str Mod
1 bonus action attack, same
2 reaction attacks, same, but with advantage

This assumes you target Chosen Prey, but compare to a Fighter.

4 attacks of 2d6+Str Mod

They can benefit from GWM, admittedly, and GWF, but the Hunter also crits even better than a Champion.

Hunter average damage, if all hit and no crit and Str Mod is +5, is 108.
GWM Champion average damage is only 88... And they have a worse hit modifier.

Early levels I think are fine, but the upper end needs to be reigned in.

With all that said! I think you did some really cool stuff here, especially with mobility and support. Looking forward to seeing it refined further. :)


I don't have time this evening to fully dive into you feedback but it looks like a lot of helpful stuff so thanks!
A quick question before I make too many changes (and I agree that some are warranted), I'm not sure where you fall on the Martial vs Caster debate but do you feel like its drastically over tuned compared to full-casters or just to other martials? I'm overall kind of ok with it being a little better than where martials are currently as I think they should all be brought up a bit but that doesn't mean this doesn't need to be brought down a bit as well.

Again, thanks for the feedback, hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to really dig into this.

JNAProductions
2023-05-29, 09:56 PM
If you want to make a martial better, do NOT make them better at combat.
They're totally fine in combat-a Fighter, a Monk, a Rogue... None of them have issues with murder.
Make them better OUT OF COMBAT-that's where martials fall flat.

Yakk
2023-05-30, 01:21 PM
Chosen Prey (CP)

-- I'd start it at 1 hour duration, wis bonus (min 1) uses, and I'd put off 19-20 critical to a later upgrade.

-- This is because the 19-20 is a MC dip bait. And we can extend the duration and add 19-20 at a later level as a feature.

Expertise
At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.

-- This is different wording than other expertise examples.
-- It also directly clones a Rogue ability. Which seems impolite design.

Skirmisher
-- More Rogue ability theft
-- The trigger is both unclear and badly worded.

Wild Swiftness
Beginning at 4th level, your movement speed increases by 5 feet and moving through non-magical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through non-magical plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard.

-- Why non-magical?

Restricting it to non-magical serves no narrative purpose, and I'm not sure why it is balance-important.

Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

-- The only class that only gets extra attack at 5 is fighter, and it has the secret feature that extra attack doubles action surge damage.

Outlander’s Advantage

-- Very awkwardly worded. I'd also prefer that game mechanical probe abilities be not part of core classes. Move it to a subclass.

Greater Mobility

-- You'll notice you split the Barbrian +10' speed into two +5' speeds. I'd rather it be +10' at one point or another and not split.

Greater Skirmisher

-- Needs rewording

Chosen Prey Improvement

-- I'd rename Hunter's Bonus. Also, this Chosen Prey improvement ... changes your interaction with non-Chosen Prey.

Wild Swiftness Improvement

-- I mean, how Monk fast movement works is a table. Here, you are doling out 5' increments as if it was a table, but hooking them into named features.

-- Here you are stealing a two lower level feature from the Barbarian. Can you do something else?

-- This feature massively rewards multiple attacks. Yet this class isn't all that good at it. I call that a multiclass tension issue.

Preternatural Awareness

-- There is no surprised condition.

Evasive

-- I mean, should Chosen Prey be called Ki Points or something?

-- Keeping track of a double-digit resource seems like a bad design decision. It is very close to "just stop tracking it" in impact, but not quite, and adds extra work.

Instinctive Reliability

-- Again, rogue ability poaching. There are other ways to express "you are skilled" than poaching already existing abilities.

Untouchable

-- A variant on a rogue level 5 ability. Also, this class already has a per-turn reaction, which conflicts with this.

Chosen Prey Augmentation

-- I mean, now we add in the widest critical range in the entire game and stitch it to a pseudo-gloomstalker 3 feature doubled.

Field Guide

-- I missed the skill bonus aura at 6 before seeing this. Make it more obvious by making it its own feature.

-- Taking two unrelated abilities and smashing them into one sentence is bad wordsmithing, even if you add and.

Apex Predator

-- Wait, now you get barbarian damage resistance?

====

As a suggestion, I'd rename Hunters Bonus to something more evocative. Then hang more stuff off the die.

The bit where you add it to skill rolls is good. But stacking that with reliable talent and expertise is not.

Design wise, step back and plan a gameplay for this class in combat. How is it distinct from the Barbarian and Rogue?

Avoid poaching abilities.

Add a fun mini game.

Rogues, for example have the mini game of "attacking with advantage or against a foe adjacent to an ally of mine". It isn't a great mini game, but it is something.

Barbarians have to work to maintain rage.

JNAProductions
2023-05-30, 01:25 PM
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

-- The only class that only gets extra attack at 5 is fighter, and it has the secret feature that extra attack doubles action surge damage.

And Barbarian.
And Monk.
And Paladin.
And Ranger.

Edit: missed the “only” in that statement.

Yakk
2023-05-30, 02:01 PM
And Barbarian.
And Monk.
And Paladin.
And Ranger.
Barbarian gets fast movement.
Paladin and Ranger get 2nd level spells.
Monk gets stunning strike (and 1 extra ki, which is too minor to mention).

{Scrubbed}

Like I said, the only class that only gets extra attack at 5 is the one with the hidden feature that action surge also gets an extra attack (fighter).

Every other class gets some other feature as well.

JNAProductions
2023-05-30, 02:23 PM
I missed the “Only” bit.
My apologies.

Though the Hunter does get an increased die size on their Prey die-not as impactful as 2nd level spells, but still a thing they get.

Saelethil
2023-05-30, 10:53 PM
Well... I spent the last couple hours going over and typing up responses to your feedback as well as updating the class above. However, my computer decided it didn't want me to share my thoughts so I'll have to try again another time.

There are some updates above and I'll try to type up responses & reasoning again tomorrow night.

Saelethil
2023-05-31, 11:11 PM
Alright. I think I covered my thoughts from yesterday.


Chassis
1d8 seems a lil' low for HP, but maybe this is more Rogue than Ranger?
(trimmed)

Yeah, I expect that most of the time the playstyle mid-combat would be closer to a rogue or monk than a fighter. They aren't intended to tank and have features that should help keep them out of melee.


Chosen Prey
At level 5, it lasts for 5 hours. You have 2-7 uses, and they recover on a SHORT rest.
You can keep this up continually without an issue... I'd either make it more limited, or, if it's essential, just make it at-will.
The listed bonuses aren't too much-though the crit on 19s is nice for Paladin multiclasses.
Expertise(trimmed)

How often do you see fight that few creatures between short rests(honest question)? In my experience, by level 5 that might cover half, more often I would expect that to be closer to 1/4. Of course, if they play into the class fantasy and track their prey over the course of hours instead of just treating it like a combat targeting system they could have a couple still up from before the last SR but I'm inclined to let that be a boon for playing like a Hunter instead of a fighter.


Skirmisher
Is this intended to be better than the Scout Rogue's Skirmisher? Mechanically it seems fine, but it irks me that it's just flat-out better.
Wild Swiftness(trimmed)

Kind of, the scout feature was the inspiration but it didn't quite do what I wanted it too. Rogues get BA Hide which, outside of white room discussions, is a pretty straight forward source of advantage, Hunter's get better mobility.


Extra Attack
Standard. Though, quick question: If you have two Chosen Prey around, can you do the bonus die of damage to each of them? Once per turn per foe? Or is it once per turn, period?

The intent was for 1/turn period. I added some clarifying language.


Outlander's Advantage
Adding 1d6 (scaling up as you level) to Perception and Stealth is really good. Nature and Survival are nice to have, but not as big a deal.
Maybe add some resource usage here? Sorta like Bardic Inspiration.

Initially this feature only functioned in the wilderness but I was talked into having it apply regardless of location. What if I made it passive while in wilderness with the choice to activate it in non-wilderness settings? Maybe as an action they could expend 1 CP for it to activate it? Similar to Pass Without Trace but a much lower modifier added to a broader set of skills.


Greater Mobility(trimmed)
Expertise(trimmed)

Thanks. Fixed.


Greater Skirmisher
On the one hand, that's pretty potent.
On the other, it's also pretty cool and mobile.
I'm slightly worried about getting an extra reaction (even a limited one) but I like the idea.

This was a later addition, suggested by the other DM in my group, that I thought was pretty cool. My thought was that the limitation to one reaction needing to be Skirmisher would be enough of a leash but I hadn't caught the way this impacted Apex Predator. The later needed some tightening up.


Chosen Prey Improvement(trimmed)
Wild Swiftness Improvement(trimmed)
Preternatural Awareness(trimmed)
Evasive(trimmed)
Instinctive Reliability(trimmed)
Untouchable(trimmed)

Chosen Prey Augmentation
So, let's say I have two Chosen Prey within range.
I attack one each-do I get a third attack?

Likewise, I have three Chosen Prey within range. I attack one, then the other-can I make a third attack against the last Prey?

The intent all 3 attacks to need to be made against the same Chosen Prey. I added some clarifying language.


Field Guide(trimmed)
Apex Predator
This increases your attacks per round from three (two base, one extra from Augmentation) to five, two of which have advantage, in most cases. That seems excessive, especially given the rest of the feature.
I would remove the second bullet point entirely, but leave the rest as-is.

Yeah, the feature is a bit much. I trimmed the Skirmisher attack to only applying to one of their reactions and after looking over Yakk's comments I'm thinking about cutting the resistances. The class already has damage avoidance & reduction features and I feel like the resistances incentivize a drastic change in playstyle.


Pack Master
Master Of The Pack
This is a good chunk of extra damage, but it also encourages teamwork. I'm of mixed opinions on this one.

No doubt that its a good one. I hoped the fact that it's teamwork reliant would make it reasonable.


Confident Demeanor(trimmed)
Leader's Call
Considering how many uses of CP you get, this reads as practically at-will.

This goes back to our apparently drastically different encounter expectations.


Call To Aggression(trimmed)
Ranging Guide(trimmed)

Minor note-there's a LOT going on at level 11 in this class.

Yeah, I wanted a general boost to Chosen Prey at 11 for the base class but thought it would be nice to have some slightly more active new abilities to kick off tier 3.


Call To War(trimmed)

Council Of The Moon
Bestial Form
Feels a little overtuned. Maybe drop the AC bit for this level? Or nix the bonus action attack until later?
Bestial Fortitude
I wouldn't increase AC like that yet.
Dire Form
Rest feels fine, but again, AC improvements feel a little much.

Would it be at an acceptable level if the unarmored AC started at 12 instead of 13 to then increase by 1 with BF & DF? Assuming starting with a 16 in Wisdom this would start them at AC 15 (no shields allowed) up to the possibility of 19 if they decide to pump their Wis to 20.


Primal Embodiment
This feels pretty overtuned.

Its not my favorite ability either. I like the Regeneration and boosted jump but didn't love the 3rd attack and after realizing how many attacks the base class can get to I'd replace it. I hadn't been sure what else I would want in its place but maybe an upgrade to Dire Form allowing a creature that fails their save to be both shoved back and knocked prone.


Primeval
Woodland's Ally(trimmed)
Casting
I'm assuming it's EK/AT casting tables?
I would not allow for ritual casting baseline, but otherwise seems fine.

Yeah, I made a note under the Spell Slot header but that's easy to miss. What is it about Ritual Casting you are opposed to?


Beastly Ally(trimmed)
Primeval Warrior
This feels a little much.

But how much too much? I can't think of any scaling druid cantrips that add a modifier so on average it would just be an additional 1d8 damage per attack action which won't benefit from most magic weapons.
3d8 Cantrip averages 13.5 Vs 1d8 weapon + 5 modifier averaging 9.5 before any magical properties are accounted for. Or is it the Hunter's Bonus on spells? I didn't think that was all that impressive either.
I actually thought it was a little lackluster compared to the other subclasses 11th level features.


Conduit(trimmed)

Overall Thoughts
It feels a bit overtuned.Looking at a Moon Hunter, level 20, you get...

3 main action attacks of 2d12+Str Mod
1 bonus action attack, same
2 reaction attacks, same, but with advantage

This assumes you target Chosen Prey, but compare to a Fighter.

4 attacks of 2d6+Str Mod

They can benefit from GWM, admittedly, and GWF, but the Hunter also crits even better than a Champion.

Hunter average damage, if all hit and no crit and Str Mod is +5, is 108.
GWM Champion average damage is only 88... And they have a worse hit modifier.
Early levels I think are fine, but the upper end needs to be reigned in.

I agree that the later levels need a bit of pairing down. Would reducing the Skirmisher attack to 1/round and getting rid of the Moon 3rd attack work for you? How would you feel about my other proposed alterations?


With all that said! I think you did some really cool stuff here, especially with mobility and support. Looking forward to seeing it refined further. :)

Thank you! I really appreciate the feedback and hope to receive more as further tweaks are made.


If you want to make a martial better, do NOT make them better at combat.
They're totally fine in combat-a Fighter, a Monk, a Rogue... None of them have issues with murder.
Make them better OUT OF COMBAT-that's where martials fall flat.

I agree that martials need a lot of work out of combat. I just disagree that they couldn't use a slight buff IN combat.


Chosen Prey (CP)

-- I'd start it at 1 hour duration, wis bonus (min 1) uses, and I'd put off 19-20 critical to a later upgrade.

-- This is because the 19-20 is a MC dip bait. And we can extend the duration and add 19-20 at a later level as a feature.

It already starts with a 1 hour duration, and I would argue that from a multiclassing perspective 1 + Wis mod (no minimum) is a pretty scarce resource.


Expertise
At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.

-- This is different wording than other expertise examples.
-- It also directly clones a Rogue ability. Which seems impolite design.

I can understand not liking that the ability is the same as it is for rogues. But the wording is practically identical to both the rogue & bard feature.


Skirmisher
-- More Rogue ability theft
-- The trigger is both unclear and badly worded.

What do you find unclear about the wording? I would like for it to be clear but just moving words around and guessing is unlikely to satisfy either of us.


Wild Swiftness
Beginning at 4th level, your movement speed increases by 5 feet and moving through non-magical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through non-magical plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard.

-- Why non-magical?

Restricting it to non-magical serves no narrative purpose, and I'm not sure why it is balance-important.

Well you're not going to like the reasoning but both the ranger's and land druid's Land Stride have the same restriction. I also believe that, from a narrative standpoint, it makes sense for a nefarious druid to be able to use plants to make a hunter's day more dificult.


Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

-- The only class that only gets extra attack at 5 is fighter, and it has the secret feature that extra attack doubles action surge damage.

There have been a couple of features at level 5 that I moved to other levels to make their progression more regular so I get that something additional would be nice but I've burned through most of my ideas for this class already. Do you have any suggestions?
I will also note that their Hunter's Bonus die increases to 1d6 (which I know isn't a huge boost) and they gain an additional use of their CP. I'm open to ideas for additional features here though, I get that these aren't as impactful as a lot of other level 5 features.


Outlander’s Advantage

-- Very awkwardly worded. I'd also prefer that game mechanical probe abilities be not part of core classes. Move it to a subclass.

What's awkward about the wording?


Greater Mobility

-- You'll notice you split the Barbrian +10' speed into two +5' speeds. I'd rather it be +10' at one point or another and not split.

I'll notice that the speed bonus progression is much closer to that of a monk than a barbarian as shown in the W.S. Speed Increase column of the table.


Greater Skirmisher

-- Needs rewording

What about it is unclear? I'd like to make it clear how the features work so I'd really appreciate if you could tell me what you're questions are I can try to address them.


Chosen Prey Improvement

-- I'd rename Hunter's Bonus. Also, this Chosen Prey improvement ... changes your interaction with non-Chosen Prey.

How about something like "Intuition Die" or "Instinct Die"? I have no problem renaming features, I'm just not always good at coming up with good names.
Also, most of what Chosen Prey Improvement does is improve Chosen Prey. It just also makes everyone a little bit of a chosen prey.


Wild Swiftness Improvement

-- I mean, how Monk fast movement works is a table. Here, you are doling out 5' increments as if it was a table, but hooking them into named features.

It is on the table. The far right column is titled W.S. Speed Increase. Its more clear in on the actual document since I can spell out the full words without it stretching the table too much but I had hoped my abbreviation would be understandable.


-- Here you are stealing a two lower level feature from the Barbarian. Can you do something else?

-- This feature massively rewards multiple attacks. Yet this class isn't all that good at it. I call that a multiclass tension issue.

Preternatural Awareness

-- There is no surprised condition.

Thanks. Fixed. Not sure why I thought it was a condition.


Evasive

-- I mean, should Chosen Prey be called Ki Points or something?

-- Keeping track of a double-digit resource seems like a bad design decision. It is very close to "just stop tracking it" in impact, but not quite, and adds extra work.

Instinctive Reliability

-- Again, rogue ability poaching. There are other ways to express "you are skilled" than poaching already existing abilities.

Its a very similar ability but it applies to a much narrower range of skills & also applies to initiative.


Untouchable

-- A variant on a rogue level 5 ability. Also, this class already has a per-turn reaction, which conflicts with this.

Again, similar, not same. Also, at this point they have 2 reactions, one of which is already tied up. If their CP has a ranged attack or manages to catch them (could just have bonkers movement or be able to teleport) this new feature will come in clutch. II know that added versatility doesn't automatically mean added power but this is on top of an ASI.


Chosen Prey Augmentation

-- I mean, now we add in the widest critical range in the entire game and stitch it to a pseudo-gloomstalker 3 feature doubled.

Field Guide

-- I missed the skill bonus aura at 6 before seeing this. Make it more obvious by making it its own feature.

CPA: What are your thoughts on the changes proposed above?
Field Guide: Done.


-- Taking two unrelated abilities and smashing them into one sentence is bad wordsmithing, even if you add and.

Split into 2 paragraphs.


Apex Predator

-- Wait, now you get barbarian damage resistance?

Getting rid of it is one of the things I proposed above. After a little thought (and it didn't take much) I think it doesn't fit with where the rest of the class has been headed.



====

As a suggestion, I'd rename Hunters Bonus to something more evocative. Then hang more stuff off the die.

The bit where you add it to skill rolls is good. But stacking that with reliable talent and expertise is not.

Design wise, step back and plan a gameplay for this class in combat. How is it distinct from the Barbarian and Rogue?

Avoid poaching abilities.

Add a fun mini game.

Rogues, for example have the mini game of "attacking with advantage or against a foe adjacent to an ally of mine". It isn't a great mini game, but it is something.

Barbarians have to work to maintain rage.

What do you think about Intuition or Instinct Die as a new name?

You gave me a lot to think about and I really appreciate it. I know it still needs a fair bit of work but its closer. I've already adjusted some things based on your comments and have a few more things that I'm pretty sure will end up being changed but I haven't quite figured out what the changed version will look like. There are also a few more things that I'll need to mull over a bit more as they are less band aid, more scalpel.

Thanks to both of you for your feedback. I'd appreciate any other thoughts you have.

Calen
2023-06-01, 02:41 PM
I think that Intuition is a great rename for your Hunter Bonus