Need clarification on Planar Ally rules if 'ally' turns out to be hostile.

[arkieNork]

Scenario:
Evil Cleric that serves no particular deity casts Planar Ally, asking for a minion to do some evil stuff.
This is strictly within the clause
>If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment

Now he is Chaotic Evil and he gets a random Chaotic Evil demon.

Lets say I roll motivation and character traits for the demon and the result is ' don't care what this cleric wants, I just want to kill him, eat his soul or at least subvert him in some way if I can'

My questions are - what exactly are the limits, if any at all, on this demon. The spell was just cast, it just got 'Called' to the Material Plane. There are no traps or bindings for it...

1 Can it attack the cleric?

2. Can it pretend to agree to some deal for the cleric and than renege on it?

3. Can it simply teleport out of there and start gallivanting around the Material Plane doing whatever it wants. If so, are there any limits as to the time it gets to stay on the material plane?

4. Can it trigger the 'return home' clause of the Calling spell sub type, tell its more powerful demon lord about the location of a mortal whose skull would make a nice ornament and than have the vastly more powerful demon lord Plane Shift directly to the Cleric's chambers?

There are some tropes I remember seeing on published modules of demons valuing access to the material plane, but as I read the spell description and the specifics under the Conjuration Calling subtype, it reads to me as if casting Planar Ally already gives unlimited access to the summoned creature regardless of whether it agrees to any deal. The description says the Called creature can trigger a trip back, but nothing about any options that summoner would have if the called creature proves to be intractable or even hostile.

[Crake]

Considering the spell costs xp to cast, and is supposed to essentially be the safe version of planar binding in exchange for giving some of the agency of the spell over to the DM, I’d say that it’d be kinda a jerk move to have it summon something hostile.

[redking]

As DM you can do whatever you like, but what you are proposing is not within the parameters of the spell. Instead of rolling for motivation, instead consider that the planar ally answered the call willingly and wants to work in exchange for inducements. The magic of the planar ally spell likely weeds out bad actors.

[False God]

Considering the spell costs xp to cast, and is supposed to essentially be the safe version of planar binding in exchange for giving some of the agency of the spell over to the DM, I’d say that it’d be kinda a jerk move to have it summon something hostile.

I would generally agree. The summoned monster doesn't have to like being summoned, but for them to actively defy the caster and even go so far as to turn on them is pretty high on the "Wow, the DM really just doesn't like you." scale.

[arkieNork]

I would generally agree. The summoned monster doesn't have to like being summoned, but for them to actively defy the caster and even go so far as to turn on them is pretty high on the "Wow, the DM really just doesn't like you." scale.


As DM you can do whatever you like, but what you are proposing is not within the parameters of the spell. Instead of rolling for motivation, instead consider that the planar ally answered the call willingly and wants to work in exchange for inducements. The magic of the planar ally spell likely weeds out bad actors.


Considering the spell costs xp to cast, and is supposed to essentially be the safe version of planar binding in exchange for giving some of the agency of the spell over to the DM, I’d say that it’d be kinda a jerk move to have it summon something hostile.

You all have a point and in general I try my best to avoid telling my players a hard 'no' either directly or in consequences.

In this specific case though, one caveat I wish to pursue - the trope that consorting with demons should be a high risk enterprise.
As a secondary caveat - I feel as if in the alignment system, 'chaotic' is one that is least restrictive on the players and that it would be fair to balance said alignment with risk. Doubly so with 'Chaotic Evil'. I heard many DM's don't allow it all. I have. Wouldn't say it was particularly disruptive, partially because I try to let players be the ones to interpret their alignment choices. That all said, it still feels like consorting with Chaotic Evil creatures should be inherently risky in any situation.

I note that the spell is worded specifically in that regard "sharing your philosophical alignment".

It would have been plainer to write 'sympathetic to your cause/plea' or even simply 'likely ally' if that was the intended restriction.

Also, perhaps it will alleviate some of the concerns expressed above to know that the question is being asked in context of trying to come up with a randomized table of outcomes for players who decide to dabble in summoning. The four choices I have listed - if the rules allow them at all, will hopefully be among at least 20 alternatives.

[Crake]

You all have a point and in general I try my best to avoid telling my players a hard 'no' either directly or in consequences.

In this specific case though, one caveat I wish to pursue - the trope that consorting with demons should be a high risk enterprise.
As a secondary caveat - I feel as if in the alignment system, 'chaotic' is one that is least restrictive on the players and that it would be fair to balance said alignment with risk. Doubly so with 'Chaotic Evil'. I heard many DM's don't allow it all. I have. Wouldn't say it was particularly disruptive, partially because I try to let players be the ones to interpret their alignment choices. That all said, it still feels like consorting with Chaotic Evil creatures should be inherently risky in any situation.

I note that the spell is worded specifically in that regard "sharing your philosophical alignment".

It would have been plainer to write 'sympathetic to your cause/plea' or even simply 'likely ally' if that was the intended restriction.

Also, perhaps it will alleviate some of the concerns expressed above to know that the question is being asked in context of trying to come up with a randomized table of outcomes for players who decide to dabble in summoning. The four choices I have listed - if the rules allow them at all, will hopefully be among at least 20 alternatives.

If you want to add the sense of risk, you’d be better off going down the twisted words route, rather than just making the demon outright hostile. Yes, cavorting with demons is meant to be risky, but this is also a character with divine power over chaos and evil.

Have the demon be subvertive, interpret instructions broadly, in such a way that the demon can sow chaos, and make it seem like it was the cleric’s fault. The longer the demon can drag out the task, the more compensation they can ask for after all, and also the more time they can spend on the material.

Basically, turn the demon into a wildcard under the cleric, meaning the cleric gets to have the effect of their spell, rather than just giving the cleric the middle finger, wasting his xp, and just having the demon fly off into the night never to be seen again.

If you want RANDOMIZED summoning, save that for planar binding, that plucks a random creature of the type you specify from the cosmos, planar ALLY is a curated summon, not a random one.

[icefractal]

I'm not saying it's inherently wrong, but IMO "Planar Ally sometimes summons non-allies, ignore the name" is a house-rule that I'd want to know about before preparing it (and I probably wouldn't prepare it under those conditions, as it becomes an objectively worse, more expensive version of Planar Binding).

[redking]

I'm not saying it's inherently wrong, but IMO "Planar Ally sometimes summons non-allies, ignore the name" is a house-rule that I'd want to know about before preparing it (and I probably wouldn't prepare it under those conditions, as it becomes an objectively worse, more expensive version of Planar Binding).

Very fair. The player needs to know the text of the modified spell description. The player might even prefer planar binding in this instance.

[H_H_F_F]

You all have a point and in general I try my best to avoid telling my players a hard 'no' either directly or in consequences.

In this specific case though, one caveat I wish to pursue - the trope that consorting with demons should be a high risk enterprise.
As a secondary caveat - I feel as if in the alignment system, 'chaotic' is one that is least restrictive on the players and that it would be fair to balance said alignment with risk. Doubly so with 'Chaotic Evil'. I heard many DM's don't allow it all. I have. Wouldn't say it was particularly disruptive, partially because I try to let players be the ones to interpret their alignment choices. That all said, it still feels like consorting with Chaotic Evil creatures should be inherently risky in any situation.

I note that the spell is worded specifically in that regard "sharing your philosophical alignment".

It would have been plainer to write 'sympathetic to your cause/plea' or even simply 'likely ally' if that was the intended restriction.

Also, perhaps it will alleviate some of the concerns expressed above to know that the question is being asked in context of trying to come up with a randomized table of outcomes for players who decide to dabble in summoning. The four choices I have listed - if the rules allow them at all, will hopefully be among at least 20 alternatives.

That same logic says "oh yeah, the LG angel wouldn't take a price for this! This is for the good of the world/church/our cause!" It's very much the trope of angels, you know - that their divine help doesn't come with a price, but as a reward for faith and goodness.

If you can find your way to rationalize an LG being haggling for a price to help save the world, you can rationalize a demon not trying to **** you over.

If you do want planar ally to be free of charge when done for usual goody-two-shoes adventure reasons, be my guest - but I think you'll find your games might substantially change if you do.

[arkieNork]

I'm not saying it's inherently wrong, but IMO "Planar Ally sometimes summons non-allies, ignore the name" is a house-rule that I'd want to know about before preparing it (and I probably wouldn't prepare it under those conditions, as it becomes an objectively worse, more expensive version of Planar Binding).


Very fair. The player needs to know the text of the modified spell description. The player might even prefer planar binding in this instance.

Reading through the replies, I have decided to go with Crake's advice on how a demon would exploit the situation, so the argument is somewhat moot on this point but still...

How is it a 'house rule' to explicitly follow the exact wording of a spell's description?

The name says 'Ally' but the description specifically does NOT say that and specifies a much lower standard of allegiance. I thought it was the agreed upon standard that the spell description is the highest point of reference when deciding what the spell does? There are many spells whose name does not quite fit the described effect. Surely non here would argue that Owl's Wisdom effect should be to replace the recipient's Wisdom score with 14 because that happens to be the Wisdom score of the Owl creature entry, rather than following the spell description.

9 sectors of very general ethos alignment leaves a lot of room for conflict within. I would point out that in the real world, we have numerous example of religious and philosophical sects with similar ethos, massacring each other.

{scrubbed}

In fact given that it is the people who live close together that usually wage war on each other and proximity usually naturally leads to ethical mixing, vast majority of bloody conflicts in history was between the people who shared very similar ethics.

[Zanos]

I would just treat your PC like you would a villain using the spell. Would a CE npc using planar ally to summon demons to assist him in spreading chaos and evil have those demons betray him? Maybe, but only if the demons believed their master was weak. A 9th+ level cleric is fairly powerful and while demons are vicious their entire society based on being oppressed by their betters. A demon is going to backstab you if it hates you, or has something to gain, or perceives you as weak, or some combination of those. So long as it's getting to regularly indulge itself and is sufficiently cowed, a 9th+ level cleric should be able to control a lesser demon.

I don't think a demon getting one over on you with exact wording is very in character. A demon lies like it breathes and an oath means nothing to it.

[Mechalich]

Planar Ally is one of those things wherein the underlying explanations is that the gods have collectively decided this is how their faithful calling upon the services of their minions works and then wrote that into the rules of how the multiverse operates (which for this purpose is identical to the game rules). Not having a deity does not exempt either the caster or the called being in any way, they are still participating in the system, whether they want to or not. In a sense, a divine caster without a deity is a 'free rider' in the cosmological contract system.

[Crake]

I would just treat your PC like you would a villain using the spell. Would a CE npc using planar ally to summon demons to assist him in spreading chaos and evil have those demons betray him? Maybe, but only if the demons believed their master was weak. A 9th+ level cleric is fairly powerful and while demons are vicious their entire society based on being oppressed by their betters. A demon is going to backstab you if it hates you, or has something to gain, or perceives you as weak, or some combination of those. So long as it's getting to regularly indulge itself and is sufficiently cowed, a 9th+ level cleric should be able to control a lesser demon.

I think it's worth noting that lesser planar ally is a 4th level spell, thus available at 7th level, and it's definitely possible to summon CR7+ 6HD demons, so it's not necessarily true that the caster is stronger than the creature they're summoning.


I don't think a demon getting one over on you with exact wording is very in character. A demon lies like it breathes and an oath means nothing to it.

I mean, I take the wording of planar ally in a similar vein of planar binding, where the bargain is enforced at a cosmological level, and so cannot be broken, meaning subversion of wording is the ONLY way it can be gotten over. I also think, just because demons aren't lawful, doesn't mean they don't know how to twist words. I think the major difference in how a demon vs a devil would handle a situation isn't WHETHER they'd twist the words, but rather HOW they twist the words. A devil would twist words in such a way that it gives them a bargaining chip, a demon would twist words in such a way that it would just sow chaos and destruction.

For example, a devil who was ordered to save the life of an orphan from an evil cleric who intends to sacrifice them, would visit the orphan, and offer them a faustian pact in exchange for their freedom, meaning that the devil has gained another soul for the nine hells. Meanwhile, a demon would flood the cleric's lair, killing everyone and everything inside, and say "The orphan is now safe from the evil cleric. They're dead now? Whoopsie daisy! That wasn't my intention at all! That collateral damage is a bitch, huh?"

[redking]

The evil creature may not even be deceptive. Let's say you call a demon planar ally. You tell the demon to kill your enemies, so it goes and kills a man. Then the demon kills his wife and children too. When the demon returns, it's puzzled at why the PC is angry. After all, by killing the wife and children, the demon ensured that they could not take revenge in the future. Mortal ingrate!

[Crake]

The evil creature may not even be deceptive. Let's say you call a demon planar ally. You tell the demon to kill your enemies, so it goes and kills a man. Then the demon kills his wife and children too. When the demon returns, it's puzzled at why the PC is angry. After all, by killing the wife and children, the demon ensured that they could not take revenge in the future. Mortal ingrate!

Or alternatively: "You never said NOT to kill anyone else"

[Gnaeus]

I think it's worth noting that lesser planar ally is a 4th level spell, thus available at 7th level, and it's definitely possible to summon CR7+ 6HD demons, so it's not necessarily true that the caster is stronger than the creature they're summoning.



I mean, I take the wording of planar ally in a similar vein of planar binding, where the bargain is enforced at a cosmological level, and so cannot be broken, meaning subversion of wording is the ONLY way it can be gotten over. I also think, just because demons aren't lawful, doesn't mean they don't know how to twist words. I think the major difference in how a demon vs a devil would handle a situation isn't WHETHER they'd twist the words, but rather HOW they twist the words. A devil would twist words in such a way that it gives them a bargaining chip, a demon would twist words in such a way that it would just sow chaos and destruction.

For example, a devil who was ordered to save the life of an orphan from an evil cleric who intends to sacrifice them, would visit the orphan, and offer them a faustian pact in exchange for their freedom, meaning that the devil has gained another soul for the nine hells. Meanwhile, a demon would flood the cleric's lair, killing everyone and everything inside, and say "The orphan is now safe from the evil cleric. They're dead now? Whoopsie daisy! That wasn't my intention at all! That collateral damage is a bitch, huh?"

I would agree fully. With 2 additional notes.
1. Demons are chaotic, but not necessarily stupid. Even if the demon is stronger NOW, humans progress a lot faster than demons do.
2. Related. Demons want to sow chaos. But they are also immortal. An intelligent demon may be happy to have a potential to cause chaos later. Or an ally in one of the unending abyssal wars in a few years. "Yeah, I'll do this thing for you! I'll do it great! I'm Bloodleach. Say it with me. Bloodleach. Thats right. Maybe you could do me a solid in a few years when you are a dark lord."

If the demon goes murder happy, you punish a pc for using a class ability. If the demon is a bit more savvy, you have a recurring NPC. Who could always choose to betray the PC when he ISNT bound by cosmic forces, or be an adventure hook, etc. Depends on the type of demon of course. Now, maybe sending demons to protect orphans isn't the safest route. But usually CE PCs are calling on demons for CE stuff, like murder or terrorizing innocents, and if that aligns with the demon's interests there isn't a need to subvert.