[3.5] Best Races As Dragonborn Base

[Thurbane]

So, I know this i a topic that already been widely discussed, but...

What LA +0 races are best to become Dragonborn, assuming the table has restrictive sources for the base race?

I know Water Orc and Mongrelfolk seem to be popular, but what if you were limited to PHB1 and MM1 races only? Or, even more restrictive, what if were PHB1 races only?

All feedback welcome.

Cheers - T

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm pretty sure the absolute best is warforged. You lose your plated armor (which otherwise costs a feat) and your slam, while keeping the rest of the good stuff that makes warforged good.

Is the MM III allowed, if not Eberron?

[Zanos]

I like gray elf, since you keep the subtype to qualify for elven generalist, even out your con/dex, and you can trade mediocre elf traits for scaling LLV, darkvision, some decent immunities, and bonuses to good skills.

[Thurbane]

Interesting.

I'd like to limit suggestions to MM1 and PHB for now please. It's not for an actual game, just a hypothetical for now, but our group often limits races to those sources.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can basically keep stat adjustments, type and subtypes, movement speed (but not additional movement types), HD + LA, and qualifying for things due to race, but lose about everything else.

If stuff beyond race is allowed out of Core, beholders for beholder mage, illithids for illithid savant, or kobolds for Pun Pun.

Otherwise, look for the best stat adjustments, types, subtypes, the least HD + LA you can get away with, and whatever feat or class qualifiers you want to keep (which doesn't really do much in Core only).

So high stats, good immunities and other benefits from types and subtypes, and low HD + LA.

Outsider and dragon types are some of the best for alter self/polymorph abuse, but undead and constructs gain the best immunities. Living constructs aren't Core, but animated objects are, so alter self/polymorph would have the most utility from (awakened) constructs, but outsiders are a very close second due to all the weird abilities outsider forms can net you. Elementals aren't quite on par with the above for any of it, but they're close. There are plenty of outsider/dragon/construct/undead critters with relatively low HD and LA, and a few elemental forms, as well.

So those things are what you really ought to keep in mind. Are you willing to sacrifice class levels for HD/LA and large ability score bonuses? That increases your range a bit.

So think on the above, figure out which options appeal the most, and narrow your choices down from there. What's left is what you have to choose from.

[Zanos]

OP might went to reference his own thread, also: :smalltongue:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?178188-3-5-Races-for-Dragonborn

[Thurbane]

OP might went to reference his own thread, also: :smalltongue:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?178188-3-5-Races-for-Dragonborn

Hey, this will happen to you too, when you get to be my age! :smallbiggrin:

[Rebel7284]

OP might went to reference his own thread, also: :smalltongue:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?178188-3-5-Races-for-Dragonborn

I am deeply impressed that you remembered a short thread on this topic from over a decade ago! Wow!

The linked thread covers pretty much all of my suggestions. With that said, if you are considering using Dragonborn for feat re-shuffling, it's VERY good on any LA+0 race.

[Thurbane]

So, stat wise, there are the options (looking at races with +0 LA and no RHD):

PHB

Dwarf +2 Con, -2 Cha
Elf +2 Dex, -2 Con
Gnome +2 Con, -2 Str
Half-Elf
Half-Orc +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Halfling +2 Dex, -2 Str
Human

MM

Dwarf (Deep or Mountain) +2 Con, -2 Cha
Elf, Aquatic +2 Dex, -2 Int
Elf, Gray +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Con
Elf, Wild +2 Dex, -2 Int
Elf, Wood +2 Str, -2 Int
Gnome, Forest +2 Con, -2 Str
Goblin +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Cha
Halfling (Deep, Tallfellow) +2 Dex, -2 Str
Kobold +2 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Con
Orc +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

Have I missed any from those books?

[Inevitability]

I think Half-Elf is very underrated as a base. One level in half-elf paragon gives you a free bonus feat: two give you back your half-elven social skill boosts but better (plus a level of casting advancement). Half-elves also have quite a bit of unique racial support: the bard substitution levels are pretty nice, as are the mark of storm abilities.

Some characters might alternatively want to go half-elf paragon 1 / human paragon 2, to obtain two free feats and a permanent class skill in three levels. It's niche, but a feat-starved build that quickly wants to enter a self-sufficient PrC (Shadowdancer? Jaunter? Nentyar Hunter?) might appreciate this over a more traditional approach, especially if they can't go silverbrow human for whatever reason.

[Anthrowhale]

Elf, Wood +2 Str, -2 Int

I believe it's actually +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int.

Goblins would also retain their unusual move of 30' on a small creature.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Goblins would also retain their unusual move of 30' on a small creature.Kobolds keep that as well.

Plus, y'know, dragon ancestry and close association with dragons generally works in their favor for stuff like dragonborn.

Dragonwrought Kobold + dragonborn = ???

Dragonwrought says you keep all of your kobold traits. Would this still apply even while adding dragonborn?

[Anthrowhale]

Kobolds keep that as well.


So fixing Thurbane's list and adding Dragonborn, you get:


Dwarf(all) Medium, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Cha, 20' move, Fighter
Elf Medium, 30' move, Wizard+Fighter
Elf, Aquatic Medium, +2 Con, -2 Int, 40' swim, 30' move [aquatic], Fighter
Elf, Gray Medium, -2 Str, +2 Int, 30' move, Wizard+Fighter
Elf, Wild Medium, +2 Con, -2 Int, 30' move, Sorcerer+Fighter
Elf, Wood Medium, +2 Str, -2 Int, 30' move, Ranger+Fighter
Gnome(all) Small, -2 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, 20' move, Bard+Fighter
Goblin Small, -2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha, 30' move, Rogue+Fighter
Half-Elf Medium, -2 Dex, +2 Con, 30' move, Any+Fighter
Half-Orc Medium, +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, 30' move, Barbarian+Fighter
Halfling(all) Small, -2 Str, +2 Con, 20' move, Rogue+Fighter
Human Medium, -2 Dex, +2 Con, 30' move, Any+Fighter
Kobold Small, -4 Str, 30' move, Sorcerer+Fighter
Orc Medium, +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, 30' move, Barbarian+Fighter


The Gray Elf stands out for the only +mental stat. The Con+4 races (Dwarf, Gnome), might be compelling for someone who is wild-shaping.

[animewatcha]

A thing often forgotten but multiclass penalty is ridiculous and usually not enforced. Dragonborn adds fighter to favored class IIRC.

[Anthrowhale]

A thing often forgotten but multiclass penalty is ridiculous and usually not enforced. Dragonborn adds fighter to favored class IIRC.

Tweaked the list to include this.

[Chronos]

Another non-core option is Mongrelfolk, from Races of Destiny, if for some reason you want to be REALLY con-sad.

[Thurbane]

Thanks for that list Anthro, much appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Khedrac]

Don't forget that dwarves may only be 20' move, but they keep their "not slowed in heavy armour" ability.

[Anthrowhale]

Don't forget that dwarves may only be 20' move, but they keep their "not slowed in heavy armour" ability.

I believe this is explicitly lost in the Mechanics of Rebirth description.

[lylsyly]

It's on page 10 under mechanics of rebirth.dwarves DO specifically lose that advantage.

[Thurbane]

One thing that annoys me about the Dragonborn template is that you lose any natural armor bonus.

Because, you know, turning into a scaly, draconic/reptile-like being means you should have thinner skin, right? :smallyuk:

[Khedrac]

I believe this is explicitly lost in the Mechanics of Rebirth description.
It's on page 10 under mechanics of rebirth.dwarves DO specifically lose that advantage.

Bah :smallannoyed: - thank-you both for the correction. :smallredface:

[rickayelm]

I like playing divine casters, so I have always thought the dragonborn lesser aasimar was great. +2 con +2 wis +2 cha -2 dex, it's great for paladins and clerics. One of my favorite pcs was a death delver, dracolyte, wonderworker who worshipped Bahamut, and used this race combo.

[Chronos]

Ah, right, lesser aasimar have... some other penalty I can't remember, instead of LA 1, to balance out their +2 Wis and Cha, but as a dragonborn, they'd lose the penalty and just keep the favorable ability modifiers.

[Inevitability]

Ah, right, lesser aasimar have... some other penalty I can't remember, instead of LA 1, to balance out their +2 Wis and Cha, but as a dragonborn, they'd lose the penalty and just keep the favorable ability modifiers.

They're humanoid instead of outsiders, that's the only difference from regular aasimar. Whether or not dragonborn overrides type and always makes you humanoid is very much debatable (and I'd argue it doesn't override).

[Kaleph]

0-level Drow savage progression keeps some stat bonuses and loses light blindness. You may even see it as core, actually.

[Wildstag]

They're humanoid instead of outsiders, that's the only difference from regular aasimar. Whether or not dragonborn overrides type and always makes you humanoid is very much debatable (and I'd argue it doesn't override).

Depends on if you follow the Savage Species pyramid rule or not. If you do, Outsider doesn't get overwritten by Dragon. I think that's the simplest argument for it.

[Inevitability]

Depends on if you follow the Savage Species pyramid rule or not. If you do, Outsider doesn't get overwritten by Dragon. I think that's the simplest argument for it.

Dragonborn does not change type to Dragon, are you confusing it with Dragonwrought?

The issue that I'm gesturing at is that the descripton for dragonborn includes both of these lines:


Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.


Upon transformation from her initial race to a dragonborn, a supplicant loses many racial traits and gains those of the dragonborn. The following information describes how to mechanically achieve this transformation.

Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype.

Now, personally I think the second of these wins out, and it certainly enables less abuse and causes fewer headaches, but some people claim the first rule takes precedence.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Now, personally I think the second of these wins out, and it certainly enables less abuse and causes fewer headaches, but some people claim the first rule takes precedence.

I'm personally of the opinion that neither should win and that Dragonborn of Bahamut are supposed to be only humanoids, which is abundantly clear in the fluff text ("The Platinum Dragon foreswore breeding creatures to oppose Tiamat’s spawn, instead accepting humanoid volunteers to his righteous cause.", "Such humanoids give up all their former racial identity and are born anew.", "Each one enters the world as a halfling, an elf, a human, or a member of some other humanoid race with all that race’s propensities and traits.", "Any humanoid race can be reborn as an emissary of Bahamut", "The only activity that one would call a rite is the Rite of Rebirth (see page 8), by which a humanoid becomes a dragonborn"), and though I understand that the RAW may work and that the Sage spoke of warforged dragonborn, the simple fact that he also says that a dragonborn warforged (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070112a) can improve a non-existent plating makes me pretty dismissive of what he says as just looking at the part of the rules he likes without wondering if that makes sense.

And the fact that the RAW literally doesn't make sense if you allow nonhumanoids to apply (since they'd have two types in that case) should also be a good indication.

[H_H_F_F]

Being limited to PHB1 is interesting.

I'd argue that for quite a few builds, humans are the best race to go dragonborn. If at any point in your build you get a bonus feat you don't care about, Dragonborn becomes incredibly appealing. Losing a few skill points in exchange for all that dragon goodness? Yes, please.

Of course, the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle is a "better" thing to do than going dragonborn, but if a table is limited to phb races I highly doubt that'd be appropriate. For a normal table, going dragonborn in this scenario would be acceptable, I think.

The other big ones are Dwarf and Gnome if you're doing something interesting with a high Con score.

[Wildstag]

Dragonborn does not change type to Dragon, are you confusing it with Dragonwrought?

Yeah, probably. It's what I get for not consulting book before commenting.

Regardless, the type pyramid would apply if you consider using Savage Species, otherwise it's GM fiat. Outsider is at the top in priority, so they shouldn't lose Outsider in favor of Humanoid.

[Inevitability]

Regardless, the type pyramid would apply if you consider using Savage Species, otherwise it's GM fiat. Outsider is at the top in priority, so they shouldn't lose Outsider in favor of Humanoid.

So firstly, there's an argument that savage species (a 3.0 book) got superseded by the Monster Manual's rule on templates, but even if it didn't, dragonborn isn't actually a template, and the type pyramid seems to only be talking about conflicts created by applying multiple templates.

[Rebel7284]

dragonborn isn't actually a template

Eh? Sure the flavor is that it's a standalone race, except that it acts in almost all ways like a template...

[Inevitability]

Eh? Sure the flavor is that it's a standalone race, except that it acts in almost all ways like a template...

It calls itself a race many times and a template nowhere, it has effects only seen on templates and never seen on races (favored class addition, languages), and it doesn't list LA anywhere (so tables that disagree that LA-less templates have +0 LA should technically ban it, if it was a template). It might act like a template, but it's not one; it's a weird race with partially unspecified traits, like hellbred does with language.

Sure, it's a semipermanent change to a character, but so is taking the first level in Green Star Adept.

[Paragon]

A good shuffle with dragonborn is to have a race with weapon familiarity.
In core you have Dwarf and Elf with those iirc.

The trick is to pick a cleric with the War Domain of a god with one of those weapons you have familiarity with as their favored weapon netting you MWP + WF with it for free.

When you turn Dragonborn, you lose familiarity making MWP+WF illegal giving you 2 extra feats !

I found a way for even more abuse with Stalwart Sorcerer (MWP+WF tree on 1 weapon) + Divine Sorcery (War) with a Greyhawk dwarf deity that has the dwarves battle-axe as their favored weapon meaning you shuffle 4 extra feats (easier to get into Spelldancer for instance)

[Anthrowhale]

I found a way for even more abuse with Stalwart Sorcerer (MWP+WF tree on 1 weapon) + Divine Sorcery (War) with a Greyhawk dwarf deity that has the dwarves battle-axe as their favored weapon meaning you shuffle 4 extra feats (easier to get into Spelldancer for instance)
That's pretty nifty. It looks like the deity is Gendwar Argrim. A few variations:

(1) If you are an Exiled Dwarf (Dragon #320), then you get a free bonus feat. This is normally useless on a dragonborn but if you pick up Nymph's kiss your feat will give you bonus skill points on level up which presumably do not disappear when the feat disappears.
(2) There are of course a few dwarves with alternate stats. Gold Dwarf is -2 Dex +2 Con.
(3) A Grippli (Small frog people -2 Str +2 Dex, Dragon #324). Can potentially do the same trick with Bolas and Nets using Marduk from Dragon 329 as a patron deity (although there is a conflict with Marduk from Sandstorm).
(4) Afterward, you can presumably retrain away the Divine Sorcery (War) feat as per PHBII rules.
(5) Divine Sorcery (War) requires a patron deity which is not Bahamut, something some DMs may frown upon. Fortunately, there's an alternative in Planar Touchstone[Catalogs of Enlightenment[War]] which has no patron deity requirements at all and is also explicitly switchable independent of the retraining rules in PHBII. Darrin's post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=9236967&postcount=3) seems to cover this well. The only disadvantage is that you need to wait until L6 to pick up the feat given the skill requirements.

[Clause]

Water halfling
Water orc
Inarnate construct phrenic warforged

[Thurbane]

Water halfling
Water orc
Inarnate construct phrenic warforged

Uh, did you read the OP?


So, I know this i a topic that already been widely discussed, but...

What LA +0 races are best to become Dragonborn, assuming the table has restrictive sources for the base race?

I know Water Orc and Mongrelfolk seem to be popular, but what if you were limited to PHB1 and MM1 races only? Or, even more restrictive, what if were PHB1 races only?

All feedback welcome.

Cheers - T

[animewatcha]

Can I submit Savage Progression Aasimar? Not the lesser. The one that starts with +2 cha that was part of the archive. Now comes to a bit of rules disfunction. Outsider type (not aasimar ) normally grants proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and whatever armor it is described as using and possibly shields. Also, it specifically states that native outsider (like the aasimar) eat sleep and breathe. So now it comes to the 'lost racial traits'. Aasimar either keeps his proficiencies (outsider) or loses the need to eat sleep and breathe (native outsider).

[loky1109]

Can I submit Savage Progression Aasimar? Not the lesser. The one that starts with +2 cha that was part of the archive. Now comes to a bit of rules disfunction. Outsider type (not aasimar ) normally grants proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and whatever armor it is described as using and possibly shields. Also, it specifically states that native outsider (like the aasimar) eat sleep and breathe. So now it comes to the 'lost racial traits'. Aasimar either keeps his proficiencies (outsider) or loses the need to eat sleep and breathe (native outsider).

Outsider can't become Dragonborn.

[animewatcha]

Outsider can't become Dragonborn.

Why not? Looking through dragonborn pages in the Races of the Dragon book and I am not immediately seeing a restriction based on race. Example being, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, giant, etc.

[Chronos]

Some references say that the Rite of Rebirth doesn't change your creature type, while other references say that Dragonborn are humanoids. One interpretation of these rules is that you can only become a dragonborn if you were already a humanoid.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Also, there are multiple mentions in the flavor text that "humanoids can become dragonborn", which, while not being absolutely exclusive, definitely points to a certain intent. However, the FAQ acknowledges the possibility of warforged dragonborns (remaining living constructs), which is stupid, but RAW I guess.

[animewatcha]

So RAI was for humanoids (and probably a few other types that were close) to be dragonborn. However, the wording on the guidelines on the chart itself ( RAW ) do not restrict race.
So then the next problem becomes...lose the proficiencies or lose the need to eat, breathe, and sleep.