At-Will damage for a Lore Bard

[CTurbo]

My daughter is playing a 6th level Half-Elf Lore Bard with 18 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Cha and even though she knew that her character was never going to be big on direct damage, she's starting to wish she could do a bit more on a regular basis if/when needed. She's been fine using Vicious Mockery against intelligent creatures, but doesn't like using it against unintelligent monsters/beasts. (She doesn't like insulting things that can't understand her)

So far she's really enjoyed playing a typical Bard supporting the party buffing and debuffing with some control here and there, but I'm wondering if she's not seeing all the damage the rest of the party is dishing out, and wishing she can get in on that. She did take Shatter at level 5 and has made a pretty good use of it already, but she wanted to be good at healing and took Aura of Vitality as one of her Magical Secrets and Conjure Animals as her other(which she hasn't cast as of yet)

I think in the short term I'm just gonna get her to use a crossbow or short bow, and see how she feels about that. Even 1d6+4 is a good bit more than 2d4. She could use a Light Crossbow for 1d8+4.

I'm trying to get ideas for the future if using a ranged weapon isn't enough for her. She could use her 8th level ASI/feat to help. Magic Initiate could get her a couple damage cantrips and something awesome like Find Familiar. I even considered how silly it would be for her to take Crossbow Expert to get a sneaky extra attack to use if needed.

This is her first character ever and I really don't want her to multiclass, but won't completely rule it out as long as it makes some kind of sense to the character. She's going to LOVE the higher level spells and I'd hate to push those off even further by dipping another class.

Any other good ideas for At-Will damage for her?

[Skrum]

Are custom items on the table? An item, maybe like a jester's mask themed thing, could boost the DC of Vicious Mockery by 2 and add Cha to damage and it wouldn't be breaking anything. Depending on what the power level of the game is (it sounds like it's at least somewhat optimized, if she's feeling left out of the damage game), I'd strongly consider letting it hit multiple targets prof bonus times per day as well.

Cloud of Daggers can situationally do good damage, but it's very situational. Best case is there's a grappler in the party than can hold an enemy in the effect. Could also spend one of her expertise picks on Athletics, assuming she didn't dump Str, and do the grappling herself. Most monsters don't have Athletics and even very strong ones are quite beatable with a grapple.

Could also take something like fireball as one of her Lore spell picks. That's almost certainly the best RAW option.

But honestly, bards are bad at damage. They're built to be the support class, and enjoying bard comes down to enjoying being in that rather passive, supportive roll - basically, casting a spell and then watching the party do cool stuff. In case it's not obvious, I do not think this is very fun and do not think bard is a very well designed class (I'd much rather run support as a sorcerer or wizard who have far more fun, active ways to assist allies).

[CTurbo]

Are custom items on the table? An item, maybe like a jester's mask themed thing, could boost the DC of Vicious Mockery by 2 and add Cha to damage and it wouldn't be breaking anything. Depending on what the power level of the game is (it sounds like it's at least somewhat optimized, if she's feeling left out of the damage game), I'd strongly consider letting it hit multiple targets prof bonus times per day as well.

Cloud of Daggers can situationally do good damage, but it's very situational. Best case is there's a grappler in the party than can hold an enemy in the effect. Could also spend one of her expertise picks on Athletics, assuming she didn't dump Str, and do the grappling herself. Most monsters don't have Athletics and even very strong ones are quite beatable with a grapple.

Could also take something like fireball as one of her Lore spell picks. That's almost certainly the best RAW option.

But honestly, bards are bad at damage. They're built to be the support class, and enjoying bard comes down to enjoying being in that rather passive, supportive roll - basically, casting a spell and then watching the party do cool stuff. In case it's not obvious, I do not think this is very fun and do not think bard is a very well designed class (I'd much rather run support as a sorcerer or wizard who have far more fun, active ways to assist allies).

This is a family game with a very laid back DM so I have considered asking him if at some point she could add Cha to damage of Vicious Mockery. He would probably be ok with it. She still doesn't like the flavor of Vicious Mockery against a beast or monstrosity or similar.

I believe her Str is a 7 as her character is just a teenage girl.

I know Bards are bad at direct damage unless you choose all damage spells with your Magical Secrets. When we were building her character I stressed to her the point that she was nearly always going to be the least DPR character in the party and she understood and was ok with it. I think it was when we hit level 5 that she started feeling left behind a bit.

Fireball isn't an At-Will damage option. I'm looking for a reliable low resource option like cantrip or ranged weapon options. I don't think any melee options would be good for this character.

I actually love the 5e Bard, and she's been mostly pleased with it too. She's had a lot of shining moments with Dissonant Whispers, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and Heat Metal.

I actually just remembered that our party has a Wand of Magic Missiles that nobody has ever even used. That could be a pretty good source of alternate damage for when she needs it. She's not trying to deal damage every round anyway.

[LudicSavant]

My daughter is playing a 6th level Half-Elf Lore Bard with 18 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Cha and even though she knew that her character was never going to be big on direct damage, she's starting to wish she could do a bit more on a regular basis if/when needed. She's been fine using Vicious Mockery against intelligent creatures, but doesn't like using it against unintelligent monsters/beasts. (She doesn't like insulting things that can't understand her)

So far she's really enjoyed playing a typical Bard supporting the party buffing and debuffing with some control here and there, but I'm wondering if she's not seeing all the damage the rest of the party is dishing out, and wishing she can get in on that. She did take Shatter at level 5 and has made a pretty good use of it already, but she wanted to be good at healing and took Aura of Vitality as one of her Magical Secrets and Conjure Animals as her other(which she hasn't cast as of yet)

I think in the short term I'm just gonna get her to use a crossbow or short bow, and see how she feels about that. Even 1d6+4 is a good bit more than 2d4. She could use a Light Crossbow for 1d8+4.

I'm trying to get ideas for the future if using a ranged weapon isn't enough for her. She could use her 8th level ASI/feat to help. Magic Initiate could get her a couple damage cantrips and something awesome like Find Familiar. I even considered how silly it would be for her to take Crossbow Expert to get a sneaky extra attack to use if needed.

This is her first character ever and I really don't want her to multiclass, but won't completely rule it out as long as it makes some kind of sense to the character. She's going to LOVE the higher level spells and I'd hate to push those off even further by dipping another class.

Any other good ideas for At-Will damage for her?

Crossbow Expert? Nah, you're a Lore Bard! Leave the archery to the Valors. Just grab a direct damage cantrip somewhere.

Here are just a few of your options.

1) You can pick up offensive cantrips pretty easily from a wide variety of sources -- races (like variant half-elf), multiclassing, backgrounds (the cheapest but also cheesiest option), Magical Secrets, or various feats that are also useful for other things (like Aberrant Dragonmark). Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade, whatever.
2) A single level Warlock dip can go a long way, as can Eldritch Adept.
3) Another route to consider is to forget about the concept of "at-will" damage entirely and instead focus on resource efficient damage that does good numbers aggregated throughout even a long adventuring day.

Lore Bards are in the enviable position of being able to build to be appreciably good at whatever role they want to be good at -- even damage!



I actually just remembered that our party has a Wand of Magic Missiles that nobody has ever even used. That could be a pretty good source of alternate damage for when she needs it. She's not trying to deal damage every round anyway.

Yeah, you should definitely start using it! It's not at will, but it's a solid chunk of blasting with its upcast option. And it doesn't even require attunement!

[CTurbo]

Crossbow Expert? Nah, my friend, that's barking up the wrong tree. You're a Lore Bard! Leave the archery to the Valors.

Here are just a few of your options.

1) As a single class Lore Bard, you have access to Agonizing Eldritch Blast as of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. That on its own is enough to set you a solid baseline, the rest is gravy.
2) You can also pick up Booming Blade and Warcaster if you want to go for the melee Lore Bard route (yes, it's a thing).
3) You can pick up offensive cantrips pretty easily from a wide variety of sources -- races (like variant half-elf), multiclassing, backgrounds (the cheapest but also cheesiest option), Magical Secrets, or various feats that are also useful for other things (like Aberrant Dragonmark).
4) Another route to consider is to forget about the concept of "at-will" damage entirely and instead focus on resource efficient damage that does good numbers aggregated throughout even a long adventuring day.

Lore Bards are in the enviable position of being able to build to be appreciably good at whatever role they want to be good at -- even damage!


1. Say what now? How does she have access to Agonizing Eldritch Blast outside of Magical Secrets + Eldritch Adept or 2 Warlock levels??? I'm going to assume you're talking about Magical Secrets + Eldritch Adept.
2. Definitely no melee as she doesn't even wear armor up to this point.
3. Too late for cantrips via race and background. I do think feat at level 8 is probably the best option.
4. She's specifically looking for a viable option to deal a bit more damage reliably if and when needed.

I wouldn't REALLY have her take Crossbow Expert as a feat. Was just thinking out loud lol

[LudicSavant]

1. Say what now? How does she have access to Agonizing Eldritch Blast outside of Magical Secrets + Eldritch Adept or 2 Warlock levels??? I'm going to assume you're talking about Magical Secrets + Eldritch Adept.

I misspoke a bit; single class Bard can get regular Eldritch Blast, and as of Tasha's you can get Agonizing with just a one level dip and Eldritch Adept, as opposed to a 2 level dip.

One level of a good Warlock subclass is an efficient way to get a lot of nice things for a Bard, without delaying your caster progression much.

[Kane0]

Just drop a feat into magic initiate to pick up a damage cantrip like chill touch, ray of frost or firebolt. Or you could ask the DM for something like that.
Hell, even that magic item to give bonus action cantrips, bards dont get many to choose from so its not the same as giving it to a warlock.

Edit: or just a magic item that adds Cha to the damage, or lets you 'twin' mockery, or gives thunderclap with increased range or something.

[Chaos Jackal]

4. She's specifically looking for a viable option to deal a bit more damage reliably if and when needed.

That's less about at-will damage and more about having a backup damage option. Getting something via feat is certainly a good way for at-will damage, but if it's just "if needed, I can also add damage to the mix", you can do so through Magical Secrets; having conjure animals like in this case can go a long way towards netting you considerable damage in a couple fights in the day and can even have a lot more uses than just damage when you need it.

If she wants to deal damage every fight... well, Lore bard is definitely one of the worst ideas for that. A level or two in another caster class for some damage-oriented cantrips and/or features can give something in that direction. But since you said you'd rather not have her multiclass and that she's not otherwise having a bad time playing support, I don't think you need that. Conjure animals and the wand of magic missile are both excellent damage options; you already have the tools. Put them to use. Cast the relevant spell, blast with the relevant item. It's a pack of beasts and a no-miss damage burst with a sum total of uses more than enough for someone who's acting like a secondary or more likely tertiary damage dealer.

[diplomancer]

Tiny Servants from Magical Secrets (it was added to the Bard list on an old UA, and I think it's very Bardy, but for some reason it didn't make the cut). On a laidback game, DM might let her have it on Bard list, so no need to use Magical Secret. Mine did (but the UA had come out, and Tasha's, that mostly updated it, hadn't) + Magic Stone (from either Warlock dip or Magic Initiate) was the way I dealt with this issue on the Lore Bard I played. (D6+Cha)*3 on a bonus action, starting from level 7, you're never gonna feel you are not contributing to damage anymore. It's so good that it even allowed me to Multiclass Knowledge Cleric at level 7 (giving me the 4th level slot), making my defenses better and also making my character even more of a know-it-all than she already was :p

One small comment on her Magical Secrets choice: they are two quite powerful spells, but they are also concentration, and 3rd level. Which means they are competing directly with one another, and also with Hypnotic Pattern, both for slots and for concentration. And Hypnotic Pattern is so freaking good, specially on a Bard if you can get an Instrument of the Bards, that basically you only don't want to cast it when you're facing charm-immune enemies.

In my experience, it's best to avoid Concentration spells with Magical Secrets, as Bards have very good Concentration options. There are exceptions, depending on party composition and other factors, and of course you should pick spells that you find fun, but even then getting TWO concentration spells with Magical Secrets seems a bit like a waste. If you feel you MUST get two concentration spells, try at least to get them from two different levels, as it gives you more versatility. You've mentioned she hadn't used Conjure Animals yet, a very good, maybe even OP spell (DM-dependant). But maybe she could have used, say, Web, in a fight when she didn't want to use her "big guns".

[Willie the Duck]

I actually just remembered that our party has a Wand of Magic Missiles that nobody has ever even used. That could be a pretty good source of alternate damage for when she needs it. She's not trying to deal damage every round anyway.

If not being at-will is not a deal-breaker, then a wand of magic missiles, circlet of blasting, and bag of tricks all combine to eat up someone's rounds where they aren't casting a levelled spell.

[RazorChain]

I the bard in my campaign as she is a spellcaster and doesn't use weapons. So I gave her a magic item I called the Heckler's Lute. It allows her to cast Dissonant Whispers 3 times a day.

So with her currently 10 spell slots + 3 Dissonant Whispers she is pretty good for the 3-5 encounters the party goes through on a decent adventuring days.

But yeah, the bard cantrip list kind of sucks in regards of damage cantrips.

Last bard I was running for took 2 levels in warlock just for the eldritch blast.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Lore Bards aren't repitive easy damage dealers but when the time is right....

Dissonant Whispers cast when an enemy is in Melee creates opportunity attacks.

Round 1, conjure or animate something.

Round 2, cast Dissonate Whispers and watch the opportunity attacks roll! Be they from your own magical creations or your Rogue's sneak attacks.

[CTurbo]

Even my daughter understands that her character is never going to be able to keep up with the rest of the party in DPR. She's not wanting to be the DPR queen of the table, she's just wanting a better option than VM's 2d4 or rather she doesn't like that VM is her ONLY option for sustainable resource less damage.

The quick easy answer is for her to pick up a Light Crossbow for a 1d8+4 option. The Wand of MM will help too.

Unless we start playing much more frequently than normal over the summer, it will takes us well into 2024 to get to level 8 so we have time to plan on a feat if the above mentioned quick fixes aren't good enough for her.

We had planned on her maxing Cha at level 8 for more Inspiration dice and better spell DC, but Magic Initiate may be in order by then.

Also if she continues to wish for better reliable single target DPR, I'll sit her down and we'll talk about the direction she wants her character to go in as multiclassing would almost certainly be the path needed to take.

[LudicSavant]

Even my daughter understands that her character is never going to be able to keep up with the rest of the party in DPR. She's not wanting to be the DPR queen of the table, she's just wanting a better option than VM's 2d4 or rather she doesn't like that VM is her ONLY option for sustainable resource less damage.

The quick easy answer is for her to pick up a Light Crossbow for a 1d8+4 option. The Wand of MM will help too.

Unless we start playing much more frequently than normal over the summer, it will takes us well into 2024 to get to level 8 so we have time to plan on a feat if the above mentioned quick fixes aren't good enough for her.

We had planned on her maxing Cha at level 8 for more Inspiration dice and better spell DC, but Magic Initiate may be in order by then.

Also if she continues to wish for better reliable single target DPR, I'll sit her down and we'll talk about the direction she wants her character to go in as multiclassing would almost certainly be the path needed to take.

They're already a half-elf, right? Is it possible to just let 'em switch to a variant High Half-Elf to pick up an offensive cantrip off the Wizard list?

[solidork]

Not to invite people to get into their philosophy of how players get magic items, but a magic item that lets you know and cast a specific cantrip seems fine for an uncommon item that requires attunement.

[diplomancer]

They're already a half-elf, right? Is it possible to just let 'em switch to a variant High Half-Elf to pick up an offensive cantrip off the Wizard list?

But that would be based on Int, wouldn't it? Sure, there's Booming Blade, which is Casting Attribute-independent, and the character sure does have the Dex to pull it off, but he said he doesn't think melee options are good for her.

[CTurbo]

I also don't think she understands the value of the debuff that VM brings. I'm gonna speak to the DM about possibly making it known when an attack misses because of her VM's forced disadvantage.

A magic item for cantrip casting is a good idea that hadn't occurred to me prior to making this thread.

I think Mind Sliver would be a great option for her to have.

[LudicSavant]

But that would be based on Int, wouldn't it? Sure, there's Booming Blade, but he said the character does not want to be in melee.

Ah, that's true. They did say that.

[diplomancer]

I also don't think she understands the value of the debuff that VM brings. I'm gonna speak to the DM about possibly making it known when an attack misses because of her VM's forced disadvantage.

Yeah, that's something good to highlight. Vicious Mockery is almost a stealth "healing" spell, and base cantrip damage, unless you build to optimize for it, is not that high anyhow, so the riders end up mattering more (and Vicious Mockery got one of the best riders, though Mind Sliver also has a very good one).

[KorvinStarmast]

As a magic secret, take Toll the Dead.
xd8 necrotic for a target with no damage on it yet, xd12 necrotic for one that's already been damaged.

[solidork]

A magic item for cantrip casting is a good idea that hadn't occurred to me prior to making this thread.

I think Mind Sliver would be a great option for her to have.

I don't know - a low damage save cantrip with a useful rider is sort of what she's got. I was facing a dilemma similar to the one you're having now on my own Bard, and when I multiclassed into Sorcerer what was most attractive to me was an attack roll cantrip.

Theres something more viscerally enjoyable to me about attacking - you're the one who gets to roll, you can crit, it's easy to visualize and describe in interesting ways both when you hit and when you miss. Theres only so many ways to can describe someone resisting a mental effect, where as an opponent can dodge a firebolt or block it with their shield or deflect it with their weapon; you could leave a scorch mark on their armored hide even if you didn't pierce it.

Not all of that might matter, or be true for everyone; I mostly just realized that I felt attacking was more satisfying and decided to parse out my feelings on why in your thread. :smallbiggrin:

[diplomancer]

I don't know - a low damage save cantrip with a useful rider is sort of what she's got. I was facing a dilemma similar to the one you're having now on my own Bard, and when I multiclassed into Sorcerer what was most attractive to me was an attack roll cantrip.

Theres something more viscerally enjoyable to me about attacking - you're the one who gets to roll, you can crit, it's easy to visualize and describe in interesting ways both when you hit and when you miss. Theres only so many ways to can describe someone resisting a mental effect, where as an opponent can dodge a firebolt or block it with their shield or deflect it with their weapon; you could leave a scorch mark on their armored hide even if you didn't pierce it.

Not all of that might matter, or be true for everyone; I mostly just realized that I felt attacking was more satisfying and decided to parse out my feelings on why in your thread. :smallbiggrin:

Myself, I tend to be so unlucky lately when I roll the dice, that I'm leaning more and more to go into a "saves only" mode :p
But without personal quirks, another benefit of attack options is that it's easier to get advantage, or just to stack bonuses in general. On the other hand, you have to deal with things like cover.

[CTurbo]

I don't know - a low damage save cantrip with a useful rider is sort of what she's got. I was facing a dilemma similar to the one you're having now on my own Bard, and when I multiclassed into Sorcerer what was most attractive to me was an attack roll cantrip.

Theres something more viscerally enjoyable to me about attacking - you're the one who gets to roll, you can crit, it's easy to visualize and describe in interesting ways both when you hit and when you miss. Theres only so many ways to can describe someone resisting a mental effect, where as an opponent can dodge a firebolt or block it with their shield or deflect it with their weapon; you could leave a scorch mark on their armored hide even if you didn't pierce it.

Not all of that might matter, or be true for everyone; I mostly just realized that I felt attacking was more satisfying and decided to parse out my feelings on why in your thread. :smallbiggrin:

It's not a bad call out. This is her first ever DnD character so she really doesn't know what she likes yet. When I first sat her down and asked her what type of character she wanted to play, she knew she wanted to play a girl her age(12) and she loves being a little witty smartass in real life, she fell in love with the idea of a Bard and for the most part she's owned it. Many times she's been the star and she single handedly and repeatedly foiled our first recurring BBEG using Heat Metal, Dissonant Whisper, Tashas Hideous Laughter, and Hold Person. When she first hit level 5 and took Shatter, she was excited about being able to do so much damage to so many enemies at once and she's used it to great effect already. I think she got a taste of doing decent damage and wants more.

10th level Magical Secrets is a long way away, but if she stays single classed like I hope she does, I can definitely see her grabbing at least one juicy damage spell at that point. Destructive Wrath or Cone of Cold perhaps?

[Theodoxus]

It sounds like you have it pretty much covered with current items and options. Using VM on intelligent critters (with the DM now hopefully calling out when the Disad works in the party's favor) and the wand of MM on beasts and other unintelligent critters.

For the level 10 MS, big ticket items like Awaken (is she's into forest animals or having a tree buddy), Bigby's Hand if she knows about/wants to emulate Scanlan, Cloudkill if you REALLY want to make a LOT of things dead, Conjure Elemental can be fun and chaotic (I had a sorc once that just summoned and let them loose on the BBEG's base), Swift Quiver if you want to steal the Ranger's thunder, Synaptic Static if you wanna really double down on the psychic damage department, Wall of Force to for ultimate battlefield control, and Wrath of Nature for just everything above.

[diplomancer]

I know it's a long way away, but I really would not recommend a damage option for Lore Bards as a level 10 Magical Secrets. Damage from bladt spells simply doesn't scale that well in 5e. It's fireball at 5, meteor swarm at 9th, and not much good enough for a magical secret in between. This is even more true because Bards do get 2 decent damage options with their 5th level spells: Animate Objects (which is not an instantaneous blast, but is an absolutely bonkers damage spell that synergizes specially well with Dissonant Whispers), and Synaptic Static, with slightly weak damage, but one that targets a weak save and that has a good rider effect. I'd say both these spells are better than Cone of Cold, unless you need a massive cone-shaped area (area is the one stand-out of cone of cold)

[CTurbo]

It sounds like you have it pretty much covered with current items and options. Using VM on intelligent critters (with the DM now hopefully calling out when the Disad works in the party's favor) and the wand of MM on beasts and other unintelligent critters.

For the level 10 MS, big ticket items like Awaken (is she's into forest animals or having a tree buddy), Bigby's Hand if she knows about/wants to emulate Scanlan, Cloudkill if you REALLY want to make a LOT of things dead, Conjure Elemental can be fun and chaotic (I had a sorc once that just summoned and let them loose on the BBEG's base), Swift Quiver if you want to steal the Ranger's thunder, Synaptic Static if you wanna really double down on the psychic damage department, Wall of Force to for ultimate battlefield control, and Wrath of Nature for just everything above.


I know it's a long way away, but I really would not recommend a damage option for Lore Bards as a level 10 Magical Secrets. Damage from bladt spells simply doesn't scale that well in 5e. It's fireball at 5, meteor swarm at 9th, and not much good enough for a magical secret in between. This is even more true because Bards do get 2 decent damage options with their 5th level spells: Animate Objects (which is not an instantaneous blast, but is an absolutely bonkers damage spell that synergizes specially well with Dissonant Whispers), and Synaptic Static, with slightly weak damage, but one that targets a weak save and that has a good rider effect. I'd say both these spells are better than Cone of Cold, unless you need a massive cone-shaped area (area is the one stand-out of cone of cold)

I don't want her to "waste" one of her 10th level Magical Secrets on a big damage spell. There are so many awesome 4th and 5th level spells for her to take I'm hoping that by the time she gets to level 10, she'll want more of the "reality warping" spell options. She's actually going to run in to the good old problem of not having room for all of them.

She'll almost certainly take Greater Invisibility and Polymorph at level 7, but she's got some big decisions to make at level 9 because there are a lot of GREAT 5th level options on the Bard list. If I had to personally choose I would take Animated Objects and Awaken as I love both. She'd have to drop something at that point. At 10th level, I'm pretty sure she'll love Find Greater Steed. We've yet to face off against an enemy spell caster, but Counterspell could be the best 2nd option. If not Counterspell, there's still too many other game changing spells available to take "just" a damage spell. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.

[Willie the Duck]

This is her first character ever and I really don't want her to multiclass, but won't completely rule it out as long as it makes some kind of sense to the character. She's going to LOVE the higher level spells and I'd hate to push those off even further by dipping another class.

Option: After a harrowing altercation with a mind flayer or other psychic aberration (perhaps where they charm person/dominate/telepathy-ed her or otherwise rooted around inside her head), she came to realize that she came out of the experience not-100% the same. This sets up a 1-level dip into Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. This gets her Mind Sliver, four other cantrips (for significant greater at-will contribution), Arms of Hadar and Dissonant Whispers (the later of which she can then re-assign on the bard side at next bard level-up, if she had it), and two thematic of combat-contributing level 1 spells from the sorcerer list. Also mental contact with allies. She only loses one level of bard (and no slot advancement), and will still be able to get to see most of those higher level bard spells and level 10 magic secrets.

[Joe the Rat]

I misspoke a bit; single class Bard can get regular Eldritch Blast, and as of Tasha's you can get Agonizing with just a one level dip and Eldritch Adept, as opposed to a 2 level dip.

One level of a good Warlock subclass is an efficient way to get a lot of nice things for a Bard, without delaying your caster progression much.A spare 1st level spell slot that recovers on a short rest (she's a bard, so short rests are good for the party) is a handy perk.


Not to invite people to get into their philosophy of how players get magic items, but a magic item that lets you know and cast a specific cantrip seems fine for an uncommon item that requires attunement. By far my favorite angle. Bonus points it's incorporated into her preferred type of instrument.

[Quintis81]

I also play a Lore bard. (lvl 8 now).

As most people already pointed out they are not the greatest for damage output. Most spell slots are used for utility. That being said one of the items i got my bard was a Wand of Magic Missiles. Just so i can deal that little bit of extra damage when i need to. And you don't get more reliable damage than an auto hitting spell that does not even cost a spell slots. Flexible with the amount of charges that you can expand per use.

Start with giving here this wand and see how this feels for her. If she feels that she need something more there is always the option of multi-classing, a feat or picking a damage spell with the Magic secrets. Looking for an item that gives you a x amount of charges per day.

For me the utility i bring is all i need.

GL and HF.

[Odessa333]

Well, just to say this first, this might be something to talk about with both DM and the player to find a solution.


One thing I worry about reading this, is that if she doesn't like insulting beasts, say, will she care to light them on fire? Freeze them to death? Shoot them with arrows? You might want to find out their preferred solution with such a thing before just finding a way for more damage.

Also, if they do not like insulting those that don't understand them, and has made this clear.....AND this is her first character for a 12 year old.....why the heck is the DM using these monsters in the first place? Talk to the DM, make sure they understand the situation, and don't send in monsters that make one of the players uncomfortable. It's not that hard to replace 'wild dog' with 'demon dog' or 'robot dog' etc.


Something I would consider (again, while talking to them ideally) would be a control cantrip. Maybe a weaker version of 'charm monster' or even 'forcecage' that allows them to give a monster they don't want to hurt a time out. There used to be an old mechanic in pathfinder where you could turn a 1st level spell into a 'free' spell or cantrip if you made it non lethal. Something like that could be really useful with sleep, and in pathfinder using it for magic missiles was common.


Still, if you are looking for pure damage, without multiclassing, and feats are a long way off, then items have to be your go to for now. The wand of magic missiles and a crossbow were already mentioned, as were homebrew items to add CHA to vicious mockery, etc. Melee is out so that takes out a lot of item potential. You could ask the DM/player about getting some staffs that recharge, let them test out other spells with a staff of fire, say. Using 'just' burning hands, you could cast several of those a day, and recharge most uses for the next day. An instrument of the bards or other instrument. A dancing sword could be of use too, allowing for a 'melee' attack without needing to be in melee. There are a lot of options, but you'd need the players input to know which is the right option.

[JNAProductions]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's more "These animals can't even talk-how does Vicious Mockery work?" and less "Cute animals, must not harm!"

[Theodoxus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's more "These animals can't even talk-how does Vicious Mockery work?" and less "Cute animals, must not harm!"

That was my take as well, though the obvious answers is 'magic, duh' ;)

[lall]

In 5.5, Mind Sliver will be a DIET arcane spell, so you can ask the DM if she can switch out Vicious Mockery for it. Or ask if she can redo one of her Additional Magical Secrets picks for something like Fire Bolt, or take Magic Initiate at 8th level, or take Fire Bolt with Magical Secrets at 10th. Or ask the DM if there is some side quest she can do to eventually earn something like Fire Bolt, maybe granted by a deity or powerful entity.

[CTurbo]

Option: After a harrowing altercation with a mind flayer or other psychic aberration (perhaps where they charm person/dominate/telepathy-ed her or otherwise rooted around inside her head), she came to realize that she came out of the experience not-100% the same. This sets up a 1-level dip into Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. This gets her Mind Sliver, four other cantrips (for significant greater at-will contribution), Arms of Hadar and Dissonant Whispers (the later of which she can then re-assign on the bard side at next bard level-up, if she had it), and two thematic of combat-contributing level 1 spells from the sorcerer list. Also mental contact with allies. She only loses one level of bard (and no slot advancement), and will still be able to get to see most of those higher level bard spells and level 10 magic secrets.


Well, just to say this first, this might be something to talk about with both DM and the player to find a solution.


One thing I worry about reading this, is that if she doesn't like insulting beasts, say, will she care to light them on fire? Freeze them to death? Shoot them with arrows? You might want to find out their preferred solution with such a thing before just finding a way for more damage.

Also, if they do not like insulting those that don't understand them, and has made this clear.....AND this is her first character for a 12 year old.....why the heck is the DM using these monsters in the first place? Talk to the DM, make sure they understand the situation, and don't send in monsters that make one of the players uncomfortable. It's not that hard to replace 'wild dog' with 'demon dog' or 'robot dog' etc.


Something I would consider (again, while talking to them ideally) would be a control cantrip. Maybe a weaker version of 'charm monster' or even 'forcecage' that allows them to give a monster they don't want to hurt a time out. There used to be an old mechanic in pathfinder where you could turn a 1st level spell into a 'free' spell or cantrip if you made it non lethal. Something like that could be really useful with sleep, and in pathfinder using it for magic missiles was common.


Still, if you are looking for pure damage, without multiclassing, and feats are a long way off, then items have to be your go to for now. The wand of magic missiles and a crossbow were already mentioned, as were homebrew items to add CHA to vicious mockery, etc. Melee is out so that takes out a lot of item potential. You could ask the DM/player about getting some staffs that recharge, let them test out other spells with a staff of fire, say. Using 'just' burning hands, you could cast several of those a day, and recharge most uses for the next day. An instrument of the bards or other instrument. A dancing sword could be of use too, allowing for a 'melee' attack without needing to be in melee. There are a lot of options, but you'd need the players input to know which is the right option.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's more "These animals can't even talk-how does Vicious Mockery work?" and less "Cute animals, must not harm!"

She has no issues murdering the "cute" animals. She understands it's fantasy/fiction. There hasn't been a time where she didn't mind hurting anything that was trying to kill her. She actually thought it was funny the time her VM ended up being the killing "blow" to a humanoid enemy and she didn't hesitate to drop a Shatter on a pack of wolves.

It wouldn't be too hard to RP her gaining a level of Sorcerer if necessary. We actually have a full class Sorcerer(her 14yr old sister), a Wild Magic Barbarian with 1 level of Wild Magic Sorcerer, and a Swashbuckler with 1 level of Divine Soul Sorcerer. I RP my Barb as "bursting" with innate magical power. My older daughter sorta RPs her Pyro Sorceress the same way. We could just say that she soaked up some of that natural overflowing power. I still prefer she not multiclass, but it's her character though so I'll let her decide.

[Keravath]

I have a lore bard character that also multiclassed two levels into hexblade warlock. I have never looked back.

Agonizing blast, 2 short rest spell slots, the shield spell, medium armor and shield use, martial weapon proficiency, hexblade's curse 1/SR though I have rarely used it, hex spell, an extra invocation after Agonizing Blast (there is so much choice - Devils sight, Eldritch sight, Mask of many faces ...).

The hex spell only uses a 1st level slot (the character has 6) so if the character isn't concentrating on something more useful (which they usually are) then they drop hex on the most likely target and go to town with Agonizing blast.

My character is now level 17 and I haven't regretted the two levels spent on warlock.

---

These days, agonizing blast can also be obtained with a 1 level dip into warlock plus the Eldritch Adept feat to get the invocation which still gets most of the multiclass benefits (especially with hexblade).

---

So the warlock choices from level 6 lore bard would be:
1) +2 levels of warlock so that they have these abilities by level 8. This delays 4th level spells but personally I've found that much less of an issue that 3rd level spells. They could then use the ASI at character level 10 to increase charisma to 20.
2) +1 level of warlock, +2 levels of bard for the next ASI and the agonizing blast invocation. However, this means that the character won't have 20 charisma until level 13.

I'd probably prefer option 1.

Other warlocks are equally good from the direct damage point of view and provide different abilities/background/role play tie-ins. A level or two in celestial warlock for example provides the same direct damage through agonizing blast but also offers some backup healing abilities. Most of the warlock options have some secondary benefits that might work well and might not be as challenging to work into the story as hexblade (though hexblade isn't that hard depending on the narrative and what is going on in the story).

----

Other options would include:

1) Use magical secrets for a damage cantrip - either eldritch blast, firebolt or something else. Significant opportunity cost since the level 6 magical secrets offer access to some very good 3rd level spells for the bard - but it would give them at least a bit more damage options than vicious mockery.

2) Multiclass one level into sorcerer since it gives 4 cantrips, 2 spells (shield and absorb elements are both good defensive spells for a bard) and from the sounds of it, it would fit in well with the rest of the party that seems to either be sorcerers or part sorcerers.

[LibraryOgre]

One option might be to give her a rod with a cantrip in it.

In the original Neverwinter Nights, anyone who passed the magic test in the opening got a rod with infinite Ray of Frost... not an ideal weapon, but good enough. So, if you're looking for a magical solution, just a rod that gives you access to a cantrip, as a charisma-cast.

[CTurbo]

I have a lore bard character that also multiclassed two levels into hexblade warlock. I have never looked back.

Agonizing blast, 2 short rest spell slots, the shield spell, medium armor and shield use, martial weapon proficiency, hexblade's curse 1/SR though I have rarely used it, hex spell, an extra invocation after Agonizing Blast (there is so much choice - Devils sight, Eldritch sight, Mask of many faces ...).

The hex spell only uses a 1st level slot (the character has 6) so if the character isn't concentrating on something more useful (which they usually are) then they drop hex on the most likely target and go to town with Agonizing blast.

My character is now level 17 and I haven't regretted the two levels spent on warlock.

---

These days, agonizing blast can also be obtained with a 1 level dip into warlock plus the Eldritch Adept feat to get the invocation which still gets most of the multiclass benefits (especially with hexblade).

---

So the warlock choices from level 6 lore bard would be:
1) +2 levels of warlock so that they have these abilities by level 8. This delays 4th level spells but personally I've found that much less of an issue that 3rd level spells. They could then use the ASI at character level 10 to increase charisma to 20.
2) +1 level of warlock, +2 levels of bard for the next ASI and the agonizing blast invocation. However, this means that the character won't have 20 charisma until level 13.

I'd probably prefer option 1.

Other warlocks are equally good from the direct damage point of view and provide different abilities/background/role play tie-ins. A level or two in celestial warlock for example provides the same direct damage through agonizing blast but also offers some backup healing abilities. Most of the warlock options have some secondary benefits that might work well and might not be as challenging to work into the story as hexblade (though hexblade isn't that hard depending on the narrative and what is going on in the story).

----

Other options would include:

1) Use magical secrets for a damage cantrip - either eldritch blast, firebolt or something else. Significant opportunity cost since the level 6 magical secrets offer access to some very good 3rd level spells for the bard - but it would give them at least a bit more damage options than vicious mockery.

2) Multiclass one level into sorcerer since it gives 4 cantrips, 2 spells (shield and absorb elements are both good defensive spells for a bard) and from the sounds of it, it would fit in well with the rest of the party that seems to either be sorcerers or part sorcerers.


One option might be to give her a rod with a cantrip in it.

In the original Neverwinter Nights, anyone who passed the magic test in the opening got a rod with infinite Ray of Frost... not an ideal weapon, but good enough. So, if you're looking for a magical solution, just a rod that gives you access to a cantrip, as a charisma-cast.

I like the Rod of infinite cantrip idea. Honestly Ray of Frost is a good counter to all the Fire that gets thrown around by the Pyro.

I think Warlock 2 would be a great dip for her if she chooses to veer from Lore Bard. Since she refuses to wear armor, infinite Mage Armor would be a great boost for her. Agonizing EB would immediately elevate her DPR enough to at least get close to the rest of the party, and probably more than my Barb does. She'd almost certainly prefer Celestial out of all the options since she fancies herself as a good and beautiful Half-Elf. She also values healing as she's been the only one in the party with any healing at all until the Swashbuckler/Divine Soul joined with Cure Wounds. Both of the girls' characters wear dresses. The Pyro has Mage Armor, but has only ever used it once. I think Mage Armor and Counterspell are the only 2 non-FIRE spells she has hahaha

I also think she'd enjoy having a Sprite or Pseudodragon familiar if she really wanted to derail her Bard levels. I bet the DM would let her have a Pixie minus the Polymorph and Confusion spells.

I think in the short term we'll see how she does with a crossbow and Wand of MM.

[Tzah]

If she want to use cantrips over a weapon to do at will damage you could ask if the DM can eventually give her a magic instrument with similar proprieties of the All Purpose Tool.

* As an action, you can focus on the tool to channel your creative forces. Choose a cantrip that you don't know from any class list. For 8 hours, you can cast that cantrip, and it counts as an artificer cantrip for you. Once this property is used, it can't be used again until the next dawn.

[LudicSavant]

One option might be to give her a rod with a cantrip in it.

In the original Neverwinter Nights, anyone who passed the magic test in the opening got a rod with infinite Ray of Frost... not an ideal weapon, but good enough. So, if you're looking for a magical solution, just a rod that gives you access to a cantrip, as a charisma-cast.

This sounds ideal if you don't want to fuss with her rearranging her character build or the like.

[Sigreid]

Easy answer, spell sniper EB and later the feat to get an invocation selecting Agonizing Blast. Also, it is perfectly fair in the rules for feats to be rewards for queasts as long as you're fair to the other players.

[Chaos Jackal]

Easy answer, spell sniper EB and later the feat to get an invocation selecting Agonizing Blast. Also, it is perfectly fair in the rules for feats to be rewards for queasts as long as you're fair to the other players.

You cannot get Agonizing Blast with Eldritch Adept without having warlock levels, so you might as well skip Spell Sniper if you're getting those.

[Sigreid]

You cannot get Agonizing Blast with Eldritch Adept without having warlock levels, so you might as well skip Spell Sniper if you're getting those.

AFB so I'll take your word for that. Still, EB even without +cha damage is solid.

[CTurbo]

You cannot get Agonizing Blast with Eldritch Adept without having warlock levels, so you might as well skip Spell Sniper if you're getting those.

I did know that, but it appears to be true which kinda cuts down on that feat quite a bit, but I also guess that's good for Warlocks that not any class can steal their thing.

I actually don't like that the Eldritch Adept and Metamagic Adept feats exist as they really do take away from those classes.

Either way, I'm sure the DM would hand waive that rule anyway if she wanted to take that route. She'd surely get EB from Magic Initiate and not Spell Sniper though.

I've spoken to her and she's excited about the Wand of MM as anything that she would target with it would auto-hit, and she wants to have a short bow as backup. We're going to see how that goes.