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kinem
2023-05-08, 07:17 PM
Stone Giant, Primal
Colossal Giant (Earth)
Alignment: Any
Initiative: +5; Senses: darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Tremorsense 100'
AC: 41 (-8 size, +1 dex, +30 natural, +8 armor), touch 3, flat-footed 40
Hit Dice: 40d8+640 (820 hp)
Saves Fort +37, Ref +14, Will +37
Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares)
Space / Reach: 30 ft./30 ft.
Base Attack +30; Grapple +66
Attack: Colossal greatclub +42 melee, or slam +42 melee, or rock +48 ranged
Full Attack: Colossal greatclub +42/+37/+32/+27 melee, or 2 slams +42 melee, or rock +48/+43/+38/+33 ranged
Damage: Colossal greatclub 6d8+30, slam 6d6+20, rock 6d8+35
Special Attacks/Actions: Rock throwing, trample 8d6+30, earth stomp, spell-like abilities, summon rocks
Abilities: Str 51, Dex 13, Con 41, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20
Special Qualities: Superior Rock Catching, Stone Full Plate Affinity, Statue, DR 10/-, Hardness 10, Resist Acid 10, Resist Sonic 10, immune to force damage, Tremorsense 100'
Skills: Appraise +48, Climb +63, Concentration +58, Spot +48, Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, architecture) +48
Feats: Augment Summoning, Blind-Fight[B], Combat Reflexes, Iron Will[B], Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot[B], Brutal Throw, Endurance; Steadfast Determination (no auto fail Fort on natural 1; Con instead of Wis to Will saves); Improved Initiative; Improved Toughness [B]; Indomitable Soul (re-roll Will vs mind-affecting or fear), Quicken SLA (Wall of Stone, 3/day), Quicken SLA (See Invisibility, 3/day), Quicken SLA (Earthbind, 3/day)
[B]Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Fast Healing [fast healing 3], Uncanny Accuracy
[B]Advancement: By character class
Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization: Solitary or band (2-5)
Treasure/Possessions: Standard
Challenge Rating: 22

Primal Stone Giants are spoken of in legends, but are now so rarely encountered that few believe those legends. Such a giant resembles a much larger version of the more common stone giants - lean and muscular in form, with hard, hairless flesh that's smooth and gray, and with gaunt facial features and deep-sunken, black eyes that seem grim. An adult stands some 80 feet tall or more and and weighs about 400,000 pounds. Primal Stone Giants can live to be about 8,000 years old, but that can be extended greatly with the giant's Statue ability (see below). A primal stone giant can survive on a diet of rocks. Primal Stone Giants speak Giant, Common, and Terran.

Stone Full Plate Affinity (Ex): These giants typically wear plate mail armor made of stone; it functions as ordinary colossal plate mail armor, except that for them, it's comfortable enough to wear at all times and to sleep in without penalty. A primal stone giant can don this armor by himself without the penalties of donning armor hastily.

Trample (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, a primal stone giant can trample opponents at least one size category smaller than himself. This attack deals 8d6+30 points of bludgeoning damage. A trampled opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a -4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 50) for half damage.

Summon Rocks (Su): When throwing rocks a primal stone giant can magically conjure rocks appropriate for throwing (as a free action but not more often than it makes attacks), and as such, need not carry rocks around as ammunition. These rocks vanish after 1 round. When thrown by the giant, such rocks have a +5 magical enhancement bonus to attack and damage.

Rock Throwing (Ex): A primal stone giant is an accomplished rock thrower and receives a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. The range increment is 400 feet for a primal stone giant’s thrown rocks. It typically uses both hands when throwing a rock; if using one hand reduce the damage to 6d8+25.

Superior Rock Catching (Ex): A primal stone giant can catch rocks of up to Colossal size. Once per round, a primal stone giant that would normally be hit by a rock can catch it as a free action. No reflex save is needed, and the giant can do this even if flat-footed, but not if it's not aware of the attack.

Earth Stomp (Ex): During a move action which can include normal movement (or during a charge), the giant can choose to stomp on the ground with great force. All other creatures on the ground within 30' are affected as if by a Trip attack. The giant makes a Strength check (1d20+20) opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If the giant's Strength check is higher, the defender falls prone.

Hardness (Ex): Energy attacks affect the giant as if they were attacking an object. Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

Statue (Su): Similar to the spell, the giant can transform into solid stone, along with any garments and equipment worn or carried. In statue form, the giant has hardness 10. The giant retains its own hit points. The giant can see, hear, and smell normally, but does not need to eat or breathe. Feeling is limited to those sensations that can affect the hard substance of the individual’s body. Chipping is equal to a mere scratch, but breaking off one of the statue’s arms constitutes serious damage. The giant can return to its normal state, act, and then return instantly to the statue state (a free action). The statue form can be maintained indefinitely, and the giant does not age or need sleep while in statue form. Most primal stone giants spend most of their time in statue form, even using it as a form of hibernation in order to see different eras in history.

Spell-like Abilities: CL 40; At will - Earthbind, see invisibility, stone shape (greater), stone tell, wall of stone (DC 20), earthquake; 1/day - Summon Elemental Monolith (Earth only; no concentration needed).

Primal Stone Giant Elders: One in 10 Primal Stone Giants is an Elder. These giants can cast spells as a 20th level Stonemage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?589353-Stonemage-PEACH), have the Sustain Stone Sphere, Stonecunning, and Petrification Transformation abilities as if having 20 levels in that class, and have a CR of 24.

H_H_F_F
2023-05-10, 03:37 AM
You need quick draw for a full attack with rocks, or to some special stipulation in the rock throwing section.

Metastachydium
2023-05-10, 11:01 AM
And it arrives! Let's see!


Stone Giant, Primal
Colossal Giant (Earth)
Alignment: Any
Initiative: +5; Senses: darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Tremorsense 100'
AC: 41 (-8 size, +1 dex, +30 natural, +8 armor), touch 3, flat-footed 40
Hit Dice: 40d8+800 (980 hp)
Saves: Fort +37, Ref +14, Will +35
Speed: 80 ft.
Space / Reach: 30 ft./30 ft.
Base Attack +30; Grapple +66
Attack: Colossal greatclub +42 melee, or slam +42 melee, or rock +48 ranged
Full Attack: Colossal greatclub +42/+37/+32/+27 melee, or 2 slams +42 melee, or rock +48/+43/+38/+33 ranged
Damage: Colossal greatclub 6d8+30, slam 6d6+20, rock 6d8+35
Special Attacks/Actions: Rock throwing, trample 8d6+30, earth stomp, spell-like abilities, summon rocks
Abilities: Str 51, Dex 13, Con 41, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20
Special Qualities: Superior Rock Catching, Stone Plate Affinity, Statue, DR 10/-, Tremorsense 100'
Skills: Appraise +48, Climb +63, Concentration +58, Spot +48, Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, architecture) +48
Feats: Augment Summoning, Blind-Fight[B], Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Brutal Throw, Endurance; Steadfast Determination (no auto fail Fort on natural 1; Con instead of Wis to Will saves); Improved Initiative; Indomitable Soul (re-roll Will vs mind-affecting or fear), Quicken SLA (Wall of Stone, 3/day)
[B]Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Fast Healing [fast healing 3], Uncanny Accuracy
Advancement: By character class
Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization: Solitary or band (2-5)
Treasure/Possessions: Standard
Challenge Rating: 22

(Don't mind me; I'm just more accustomed to the old statblock layout, so bolding and stuff's something I find helpful. I know formatting is a pain and many people post from phones &c.)


[SIZE=4]
Hit Dice: 40d8+800 (980 hp)

780 hp, I think. CON's just a +15, and I don't see anything else that'd boost the final sum further.


Saves: Fort +37, Ref +14, Will +35

Fort +35, Will +37 (because Iron Will).


Speed: 80 ft.

80 ft. (16 squares). (That's nothing big, I know, but it's customary and I'm a pedant.)


Feats: Augment Summoning, Blind-Fight[B], Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Brutal Throw, Endurance; Steadfast Determination (no auto fail Fort on natural 1; Con instead of Wis to Will saves); Improved Initiative; Indomitable Soul (re-roll Will vs mind-affecting or fear), Quicken SLA (Wall of Stone, 3/day)
[B]Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Fast Healing [fast healing 3], Uncanny Accuracy

I count a feat that shouldn't be.


Challenge Rating: 22

It's a very impressive beatctick, yes, but, like, no way. It's not an epic threat.


Stone Plate Affinity (Ex): These giants typically wear plate mail armor made of stone; it functions as ordinary colossal plate mail armor, except that for them, it's comfortable enough to wear at all times and to sleep in without penalty. A primal stone giant can don this armor by himself without the penalties of donning armor hastily.

Very nice! Quick reminder, though: stone plate is an actual type of armour in the game, published in RoS; it's roughly on par with banded mail, rather than full plate.


Summon Rocks (Su): When throwing rocks a primal stone giant can magically conjure rocks appropriate for throwing, and as such, need not carry rocks around as ammunition. These rocks vanish after 1 round. When thrown by the giant, such rocks have a +5 magical enhancement bonus to attack and damage.

Is this a free action? (That would explain the iteratives, among other things.)


Superior Rock Catching (Ex): A primal stone giant can catch rocks of up to Colossal size. Once per round, a primal stone giant that would normally be hit by a rock can catch it as a free action. No reflex save is needed, and the giant can do this even if flat-footed, but not if it's not aware of the attack.

Good, good.


Statue (Su): Similar to the spell, the giant can transform into solid stone, along with any garments and equipment worn or carried. In statue form, the giant gains hardness 10. The giant retains its own hit points. The giant can see, hear, and smell normally, but does not need to eat or breathe. Feeling is limited to those sensations that can affect the hard substance of the individual’s body. Chipping is equal to a mere scratch, but breaking off one of the statue’s arms constitutes serious damage. The giant can return to its normal state, act, and then return instantly to the statue state (a free action). The statue form can be maintained indefinitely, and the giant does not age or need sleep while in statue form. Most primal stone giants spend most of their time in statue form, even using it as a form of hibernation in order to see different eras in history.

Quite thematic. Neat idea.


Spell-like Abilities: At will - Stone shape (greater), stone tell, wall of stone (DC 20), earthquake; 1/day - Summon Elemental Monolith (Earth only; no concentration needed).

CL?

kinem
2023-05-13, 03:06 PM
H_H_F_F & Meta: Thanks. Summon Rocks has been clarified to be a free action during attacks.

HP, will save & and feat count have been fixed.



It's a very impressive beatctick, yes, but, like, no way. It's not an epic threat.

Quite thematic. Neat idea.

Meta: Thanks.

What CR would you peg it as? I think 22 is in line with the CR of similar monsters, and therefore is appropriate.

Metastachydium
2023-05-14, 11:57 AM
What CR would you peg it as? I think 22 is in line with the CR of similar monsters, and therefore is appropriate.

That's a tough one, of course. (I mean, finding the exact figure, although as said, your giant is tough enough as well.) The cheap and easy comparison point is, naturally, Core's take on low-epic super-bruiser, the Tarrasque (yes, I know, but I work with what I have).

The Tarrasque is CR 20, 2 points below the 22 benchmark. Let us pretend that whoever assigned its feats was halfway competent and while it didn't get epic feats, it was outfitted with actual stuff instead of 6 instances of Toughness; that shouldn't increase the CR drastically. Let's go with Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike and heck, just leave 2 Toughnesses there. That gives it, in terms of offense, 9 attacks, 6 of them at full BAB, a +48 it can Power Attack about with; all are considered epic by default. If it can stay in melee range, that's as good or better than the Primal Stone Giant. Where the latter outshines it is negating its one great weakness, the lack of ranged capabilities that Rock Throwing with extra magical enhacement covers just fine. Well, that and speed.

But offense isn't all. Defensively, it's not even a contest. The Tarrasque has comparable AC (with higher T), more hp (even without feat-based boosters) and superior saves (remember: our Tarrasque is two Toughnesses away from Steadfast Determination), better DR (for CR 20 anyhow), a ****load of immunities, SR, Carapace (which is better than SR against a lot of spells and abilities) and Regeneration 40 (overcome by nothing) as opposed to, um, a very nice improved version of Rock Catching (which mind you, I like a lot) and fast healing 3 from a feat?

And that's just Core. Staying within OGL stuff, let's tour the ELH a bit! At CR 22 or below, we have the Anaxim (strong offense, 200' (perfect) flight, abomination immunities, magic immunity, at-will Greater Dispel Magic and Ethereal Jaunt, 20d6 sonic AoE…), the Mu Spore (plant traits, 20d8 untyped AoE, 210' blindsight, free Improved Grab if you hit it…), the Thorciasid (4 touch attacks a round, with 2 counts of triple ability drain and 2 of energy drain, no save on either…), the Ha-Naga (21st level spontaneous casting from the sorcerer and cleric lists plus two domains, to say nothing else) – that sort of stuff.

A big bruiser will never measure up to any of that, no matter how big. I could see an 18 or 19 by 3.5!WotC standards (that's still too high, given that casters exist, but we know that's not a fact WotC ever cared to account for when designing the CR system), but absolutely nothing epic, not even low epic.

kinem
2023-05-20, 12:07 PM
A big bruiser will never measure up to any of that, no matter how big. I could see an 18 or 19 by 3.5!WotC standards (that's still too high, given that casters exist, but we know that's not a fact WotC ever cared to account for when designing the CR system), but absolutely nothing epic, not even low epic.

I appreciate the advice but don't see things the same way.

The 3.5 system doesn't handle it well, but saying that a big bruiser can never have an epic CR, is just not consistent with the monster system either. Bruisers' CR is in practice more a way to compare them to other bruisers than to a balanced party.

The brachyurus is CR 23. If the primal stone giant is CR 19, then it would take no less than 4 of them to be as dangerous as 1 brachyurus. I don't think the numbers justify that at all. The behemoth gorilla is CR 19, and notably weaker than the primal stone giant.

I don't think that improving the Tarrasque's mostly wasted feats while keeping its CR the same is a fair way to compare it to other monsters.

As for abilities that cause fear, energy drain, poison, mind-affects, or grapples, they are often easy to counter at Epic levels anyway.

Metastachydium
2023-05-20, 01:06 PM
I appreciate the advice but don't see things the same way.

The 3.5 system doesn't handle it well, but saying that a big bruiser can never have an epic CR, is just not consistent with the monster system either. Bruisers' CR is in practice more a way to compare them to other bruisers than to a balanced party.

The brachyurus is CR 23. If the primal stone giant is CR 19, then it would take no less than 4 of them to be as dangerous as 1 brachyurus. I don't think the numbers justify that at all. The behemoth gorilla is CR 19, and notably weaker than the primal stone giant.

The behemoth gorilla is something of an anomaly, I'll give you that. It's way over-CRed by any metric I can think of. I'd dare say without checking that an Orc Barbarian 18 could likely solo it relying on rage and the most boring ability-enhacer items alone with most of its WBL unspent. Brachyurus… Is off, yes, but its CR comes from its superior staying power (it has far better Initiative, AC, DR, senses and such than something like the giant), so pegging it as an epic threat, at least, is perfectly justifiable.

More importantly, however, practically all the examples I cited (with the exception of the Ha-Naga) are bruisers. Going by what you suggested, how would the Primal Giant fare against an Anaxim or a Thorciasid? How about more than one Tarrasque (with six counts of Toughness, sure; all that affects is offense)?


As for abilities that cause fear, energy drain, poison, mind-affects, or grapples, they are often easy to counter at Epic levels anyway.

Certainly. But all those take appropriate resources and precautions. That, and (usually) magic. With such resources, "non-magical attacks that hit hard" are not particularly impressive on an opponent, and quite evidently less so than anything fancy. If it can do less than things you'd say are easy to counter at these levels, how's that a point in favour of CR 22?

At any rate, I ran the numbers, out of curiosity. A level 14 Wizard that casts two Core buffs (neither higher than 5th level) and only ever prepares Fireball otherwise can take on the Giant and either win handily or brutally bloody the Giant and then leave unscathed, all solo and largely naked. And that's not an optimization trick. That's just inadequate defenses (no resistences, no SR, low Ref…) meeting ultimately very subpar, but nevertheless abundant damage.

kinem
2023-05-20, 07:53 PM
The behemoth gorilla is something of an anomaly, I'll give you that. It's way over-CRed by any metric I can think of. I'd dare say without checking that an Orc Barbarian 18 could likely solo it relying on rage and the most boring ability-enhacer items alone with most of its WBL unspent. Brachyurus… Is off, yes, but its CR comes from its superior staying power (it has far better Initiative, AC, DR, senses and such than something like the giant), so pegging it as an epic threat, at least, is perfectly justifiable.

It has the same AC (41) and same DR (10) in 3.5.

Blindsight is good, but with Spot +48 and Uncanny Accuracy, the PS giant does fine against Invisibility.


Going by what you suggested, how would the Primal Giant fare against an Anaxim or a Thorciasid?

Against an Anaxim I think it would do OK. A Thorcaisid's special attacks could be a problem, but that creature is not getting full attacks since it has to use readied actions to attack when the giant is not in Statue form (which is an object and thus immune).


How about more than one Tarrasque (with six counts of Toughness, sure; all that affects is offense)?

Big T is tough in melee but as you mentioned lacks a ranged option, so is it fair to compare?


At any rate, I ran the numbers, out of curiosity. A level 14 Wizard that casts two Core buffs (neither higher than 5th level) and only ever prepares Fireball otherwise can take on the Giant and either win handily or brutally bloody the Giant and then leave unscathed, all solo and largely naked. And that's not an optimization trick. That's just inadequate defenses (no resistences, no SR, low Ref…) meeting ultimately very subpar, but nevertheless abundant damage.

Care to share? What are the buffs?

Metastachydium
2023-05-21, 09:10 AM
It has the same AC (41) and same DR (10) in 3.5.

It's not just the value, it's also the composition. The Brachyurus has +14 Dex and a lower size penalty, which means significantly better Touch which helps immensely against common bruiser-killer methods.


Against an Anaxim I think it would do OK. A Thorcaisid's special attacks could be a problem, but that creature is not getting full attacks since it has to use readied actions to attack when the giant is not in Statue form (which is an object and thus immune).

I'm very skeptical regarding the Anaxim. The point regarding the Thorciasid is fair (free actions for the win!), but auto-draining physicals on a bruiser is still brutal.


Big T is tough in melee but as you mentioned lacks a ranged option, so is it fair to compare?

"Can run away from it indefinitely" is not neccessarily a good measure of comparable CR. Big T's hp and stupid regeneration means time is it's ally.


Blindsight is good, but with Spot +48 and Uncanny Accuracy, the PS giant does fine against Invisibility.

Care to share? What are the buffs?

Oh, it's incredibly BORING. Greater Invisibility and Overland Flight. Fireball is long range, so the +48 to Spot is up against a DC that can go all the way to 146 and Uncanny Accuracy (which, and I noticed it just now (sorry 'bout that; my knowledge of epic **** is not as all-encompassing as I'd like), the Giant doesn't technically qualify for because of the stupid Dex requirement (you might want to do something about that)) only helps with the miss chance. Plus, you know, range remains an issue even if the wizard's location can be pinpointed.

kinem
2023-05-23, 08:40 PM
It's not just the value, it's also the composition. The Brachyurus has +14 Dex and a lower size penalty, which means significantly better Touch which helps immensely against common bruiser-killer methods.

Better Touch but at AC 23 still not hard to hit.


"Can run away from it indefinitely" is not neccessarily a good measure of comparable CR. Big T's hp and stupid regeneration means time is it's ally.

What would a Brachyurus do? Big T requires a specific spell to slay, so it is not really fair to use as a bruiser benchmark.

Good points on the Spot distance penalty and the feat requirements; thanks. I added a couple of SLAs and improved the giant's defenses against energy attacks, though not via the usual route. I also made the feats with high Dex requirements bonus feats and instead added Quicken SLA for the new SLAs. What do you think of it now?

Metastachydium
2023-05-24, 08:57 AM
Good points on the Spot distance penalty and the feat requirements; thanks. I added a couple of SLAs and improved the giant's defenses against energy attacks, though not via the usual route. I also made the feats with high Dex requirements bonus feats and instead added Quicken SLA for the new SLAs. What do you think of it now?

Improved Hardness? On a Stone Giant? I don't like it. I love it. That covers lots of bases, survivability-wise. With the free action/free action thing on Statue and the immunities, I think you're all set.

kinem
2023-05-25, 08:42 PM
Metastachydium: Thanks

Biggus
2023-06-12, 01:10 PM
What CR would you peg it as? I think 22 is in line with the CR of similar monsters, and therefore is appropriate.

It has average attack, AC and initiative for CR 22. Its HPs, damage, Fort and Will saves are very good. Reflex is low but that doesn't matter much with all those HPs. It has a fairly decent ranged attack. Based on its stats alone, it's hovering around CR 26. But then looking at what it doesn't have; no SR, no flight, no regeneration, and very little in the way of powerful magical or special abilities compared to most low-epic creatures. The lack of special abilities pulls it down several points of CR. I'd say about CR 22-23 is in the right ballpark.



A big bruiser will never measure up to any of that, no matter how big. I could see an 18 or 19 by 3.5!WotC standards (that's still too high, given that casters exist, but we know that's not a fact WotC ever cared to account for when designing the CR system), but absolutely nothing epic, not even low epic.

The thing about CR is that it's based on PCs who are very low-op and core only (or in the case of monsters in splatbooks, core + that book). At the back of Enemies and Allies are stats for the characters who were used to initially playtest 3E: the Bard has Dodge and Mobility (but not Spring Attack), the Sorcerer has Toughness, the Cleric has Alertness. Even a relatively low-op party can regularly beat monsters 2-3 points of CR higher than they theoretically should be able to, and high-op characters break the CR system entirely, especially at higher levels (and the WBL system too for that matter).

kinem
2023-06-14, 04:19 PM
Biggus: Thanks.

Metastachydium
2023-06-26, 10:55 AM
Congratulations on getting double-featured in a "favourite homebrewn monsters" thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657447-Favourite-homebrew-converted-monsters), kinem! (Stone Giants do rock, after all!)