Brown Bear as a Player Race

[Chilxius]

I have a player who wants to play a bear. We don't want to go the Anthropomorphic route from Savage Species, we'd rather it be an actual bear (with enough Int to be a sentient character, either from Awaken or some psionic nonsense). I'm trying to figure out a good Level Adjustment for a bear, probably Brown.

I feel the LA+animal hit dice should be somewhere in the +3 to +6 range. Any more and it probably wouldn't be worth it. Judging from the 3.0 version of Resurrection, Brown Bears have ability adjustments of +15 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con (which seems to be in line with the entry in the 3.5 MM). My thoughts are...

Would it be +6 since the Brown Bear has 6 HD? Animal HD don't seem to be worth a class level (as evinced by table 4-4 on MM294).

+6 is equal to a Centaur (2 + 4HD). Are these comparable? The bear is stronger, but Centaurs are fast and have arms with opposable thumbs.

Brown Bears are large, which might account for an increase in LA.

Brown Bears have sub-sentient Int, so would increasing that to ~8 necessitate an increase in LA?

Would most/any class levels be considered nonassociated? That might be a class-by-class basis. (My player is planning a Soulknife; the knife would take a while to surpass bear claws).

I'm not hoping for an answer to each of these thoughts, just some advice on making this build fair. Thanks.

[Doctor Despair]

LA 0, make them keep the animal HD, make them pay for the awaken out of their WBL, call it a day. The HD are going to make it hard enough for them. It'll almost certainly not be better than what a level 6 straight-classed barbarian can do.

[pabelfly]

The LA Assignment archive is a great resource: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825

They've already tiered Bears as -0 LA, which means underpowered at zero LA compared to similar builds at 6 class levels. I'd probably keep them at that and see how you go.

[Remuko]

The LA Assignment archive is a great resource: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825

They've already tiered Bears as -0 LA, which means underpowered at zero LA compared to similar builds at 6 class levels. I'd probably keep them at that and see how you go.

to add on to this in the Negative LA reassignment thread here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25290431&postcount=176 monsters with -0 LA from the LA Assignment threads are adjusted either by reducing their HD or giving them negative LA's. The link I provided includes the brown bear that OP cares about ill quote the relevant segment as well


Brown Bear, 6 RHD: And we start with the quintessential animal, the Brown Bear, and its absolutely massive +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, but -8 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha. All of you barbarians enjoyers should know these stats adjustments as those you get from a 5th level bear warrior (a generally excellent melee class). You also get Large size, and Improved Grab on your claw attack. 2 claw attacks, one bite attack. That is a chonky piece of meat we've got there. Compared to a raging Dire Wolverine, you have -4 Dex, Con and Cha, the equivalent of +3 natural armor, Improved Grab, +10ft movement speed and the ability to use spells (what? a brown bear cleric isn't that far-fetched) and to run away without a Calm Emotions spell (which may or may not be a life-saver in some situations). That seems even, with a slight advantage for the Brown Bear. 5 RHD, DLA-0 (the 6 RHD gives it a point of BAB, which could make it overpowered for its level).

bold italics and underlining were my additions

[Beni-Kujaku]

Do note that the reassigned LA above assumes the bear has the minimum possible intelligence for a player character‚ that is 3. If you give your player a free Awaken or increase it to 8 like you suggested‚ then it's perfectly viable at 6RHD‚ LA+0. If you allow it on top of that to speak Common and wield weapons‚ it might need an LA+1.

[loky1109]

Brown Bears have ability adjustments of +15 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con
Strength is +14. All adjustments are even.

[Saintheart]

Do note that the reassigned LA above assumes the bear has the minimum possible intelligence for a player character‚ that is 3. If you give your player a free Awaken or increase it to 8 like you suggested‚ then it's perfectly viable at 6RHD‚ LA+0. If you allow it on top of that to speak Common and wield weapons‚ it might need an LA+1.


It might be more than your DM can bear.

[H_H_F_F]

Agreed with the consensus that if you keep the body plan (no hands) but increase int to -2, a brown bear is very sensible as an ECL 6 character.

As for associated/nonassociated class levels: that's for CR, not ECL. Ignore it. Your player has "brown bear" as their race and "animal HD 6" as their current level. They'll move forward by taking class levels as normal.

EDIT: Jesus, just realized that soulknofe wasn't a hypothetical example for non-associated classes, but the actual plan of the player. Alright. So, on the one hand, you're letting them hold weapons; on the other, they're going for soulknife, on a chassis that might really struggle with it (especially before being able to go thf) so no reason to punish them.

This says to me that you're probably running a very low-op table, right? In that case, you might find that the bear is too strong at level 6, if you have other martial characters. If the rest of the party are versatile casters, you'll be fine - but if the competition is a samurai dual wielding a katana and a wakizashi, the bear will seem way too strong.

I'd suggest maybe talking to your player about you guys "testing it out" and changing things as the game progresses. Starting out with la 0 and seeing how things look, with the option of increasing LA if the bear seems way too strong, or letting them replace an animal HD with a soulknife level if they seem to weak. Make sure your point of comparison isn't only combat: if the bear clearly outfights the rest of the party, but they can do loads of stuff that the bear can't, that's okay.

[Thurbane]

I'd echo what others have said about using the LA Assignment thread as a guide.

Alternatively, this thread goes into the topic as well, looking for more official LA assignments: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?420705-Playable-Animals

Worth noting that WotC tend to inflate LA for a lot of creatures, especially non-humanoid. Urskan from Frostburn, for instance (which is basically the D&D version of panserbjørn from HDM) comes in at 5RHD and LA +4.

Just came across an article in Dragon 293, where they estimate the ECL of a Brown Bear as 10. Yeesh!

[Jay R]

I would strongly urge the other players to consider casters, half casters or ranged martials. A brown bear replaces at least one melee PC, and probably 2.

[Gullintanni]

... Brown Bears have ability adjustments of +15 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con (which seems to be in line with the entry in the 3.5 MM)


Strength is +14. All adjustments are even.

A Brown Bear's adjustments are as follows:

+16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha

Generally, monsters are statted using the non-elite array, meaning they assign 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 among their stats. Ability adjustments are always even numbers, so if there's an odd number in a monster's statblock, the underlying stat was an 11, and if there's an even number in a monster's stat block, the underlying stat was a 10. Then just subtract the monster's actual stat from their assigned base stat and you've got the monster's adjustments.

Replace INT with the stats from Awaken, and then, like everyone else suggested, 6RHD with no LA is probably fine.

[Troacctid]

I would recommend playing a bearwere using the lycanthrope template. Specifically the Savage Progression version. https://web.archive.org/web/20191220081459/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a

If you don't care about having a hybrid form or a contagious bite, you only need one level of lycanthrope for +1 LA, and you can then follow up with up to six levels of bear at your discretion. The only catch is that your character will be cursed to stay in bear form during the full moon. But then again, I suppose that's true of ordinary bears in real life as well.

[Chilxius]

It might be more than your DM can bear.

Best reply I've had yet.

[Chilxius]

My plan is to let the bear produce soul knives from the back of its paws like a Protoss zealot. I'll give it ~8 int and some speech, which it got from psionics, somehow. This player won't abuse the build. He just wants to try fun ideas before he graduates. (I'm a teacher and my players are some of my students.)

Thank you all so much, this has been super helpful.

Now I just need to properly balance the magic picnic basket he'll find as loot in the next dungeon...

[pabelfly]

It might be more than your DM can bear.

Best reply I've had yet.
I don't know, I think they'd be all fur it.

[Darg]

My plan is to let the bear produce soul knives from the back of its paws like a Protoss zealot. I'll give it ~8 int and some speech, which it got from psionics, somehow. This player won't abuse the build. He just wants to try fun ideas before he graduates. (I'm a teacher and my players are some of my students.)

Thank you all so much, this has been super helpful.

Now I just need to properly balance the magic picnic basket he'll find as loot in the next dungeon...

If you want a real world equivalent, a patta (gauntlet sword) could be a decent model. I always fancy the starcraft zealot psiblade though.

You can give it a limited form of telepathy or empathy. Like maybe it has telepathy 50ft while psionically focused.

[loky1109]

If you want a real world equivalent, a patta (gauntlet sword) could be a decent model. I always fancy the starcraft zealot psiblade though.

You can give it a limited form of telepathy or empathy. Like maybe it has telepathy 50ft while psionically focused.

You still need hand to use patta.

[Darg]

You still need hand to use patta.

You just need a brace actually as the gauntlet portion can be strapped to the arm. The brace can be angled to hook their false thumb.

[Thurbane]

The previously mentioned Urskan from Frostburn have their own special weapon, Steelclaws. These up their claw damage from 1d8 to 1d12. Sadly, these weapons don't really get a description or writeup of their own.

While Urskan obviously have more dextrous/manipulative appendages than a brown bear (Urskan are tool users), as a DM I'd be fine with an intelligent brown bear using something similar.

[loky1109]

You just need a brace actually as the gauntlet portion can be strapped to the arm. The brace can be angled to hook their false thumb.

Well, yes, you could modify pata for bear's hand, but it really should be modified. Regular doesn't work.
https://www.russwords.ru/upload/resize_cache/iblock/894/800_800_1c5e4ed18de05293e96d94b0b87ff8716/tzhk83if6d2ajbdr2v7mubwklsr7yfpq.jpg
Issue isn't thumb, but other fingers. Bear fingers couldn't grip as ape fingers.

[pabelfly]

I just had a thought. If you're treating it as an Awakened animal, since it's getting more INT than a regular brown bear, you'd become Magical Beast type. It would gain 2 BAB, a good Reflex save, and you can take Rapidstrike as a feat to get extra attacks off if you decide not to (or that you can't) wield a weapon.

[Wintermoot]

You just need a brace actually as the gauntlet portion can be strapped to the arm. The brace can be angled to hook their false thumb.

I'm not of the opinion that strapping a gauntlet-sword over the paws of a bear are going to make a more dangerous bear, but just a hobbled limping awkward bear.

[Chronos]

But in this case, we're not actually talking about an actual physical weapon, not even one custom-made for a bear. We're talking about a bear just thinking really hard about a weapon, thinking so hard that it hurts.

[Darg]

As they said. It's a mindblade. The picture in the book is of a green beam type weapon. I don't see a problem with it having modified statistics, especially when the patta doesn't exist in 3.5 rulebooks, though I would be interested in if there is a source for it somewhere.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Bears technically have tails. How about a tail-blade or a tail-club?

[Crake]

A Brown Bear's adjustments are as follows:

+16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha

Generally, monsters are statted using the non-elite array, meaning they assign 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 among their stats. Ability adjustments are always even numbers, so if there's an odd number in a monster's statblock, the underlying stat was an 11, and if there's an even number in a monster's stat block, the underlying stat was a 10. Then just subtract the monster's actual stat from their assigned base stat and you've got the monster's adjustments.

Replace INT with the stats from Awaken, and then, like everyone else suggested, 6RHD with no LA is probably fine.

Its easier to say that the stat adjustment is just double the modifier.

[H_H_F_F]

Its easier to say that the stat adjustment is just double the modifier.

That is easier to say. But that's an algorithm, not an explanation.

[Telonius]

Thought experiment: an awakened bear with 7 levels in Druid, takes the Fangshields variant from Champions of Valor and occasionally "Wild shapes" into Elf form. Any functional difference between that, and an Elf Druid who spends most of his time as a bear?

[H_H_F_F]

Thought experiment: an awakened bear with 7 levels in Druid, takes the Fangshields variant from Champions of Valor and occasionally "Wild shapes" into Elf form. Any functional difference between that, and an Elf Druid who spends most of his time as a bear?

Higher physical stats and 6 less levels of druid.

Obviously, if you're going for a tier 1 class, taking any racial HD or LA is a huge hit.

[pabelfly]

Higher physical stats and 6 less levels of druid.

Obviously, if you're going for a tier 1 class, taking any racial HD or LA is a huge hit.

Depends on the table you're playing at. If the group is low power, it could be fine to add some HD to your build without adding casting.

[H_H_F_F]

Depends on the table you're playing at. If the group is low power, it could be fine to add some HD to your build without adding casting.

Not really dependent on the table, IMO. It's a big hit. Depending on the table, it could be a great choice to take that hit - but it's a big hit to power regardless of optimization level or system savviness. Like, even in an extremely low-op core only table, the druid with summon nature's ally VII is going to be much stronger than the one with SNA IV, regardless of any optimization or tactics.

[flappeercraft]

If you want RAW precedent, dragon magazine #293 page 54 sets awakened brown bears at an ECL of 10

[pabelfly]

Not really dependent on the table, IMO. It's a big hit. Depending on the table, it could be a great choice to take that hit - but it's a big hit to power regardless of optimization level or system savviness. Like, even in an extremely low-op core only table, the druid with summon nature's ally VII is going to be much stronger than the one with SNA IV, regardless of any optimization or tactics.

Yes, and some tables are perfectly fine with SNA IV even when SNA VII is what a straight Druid would be able to use. Not everyone is ruthlessly optimising like we are capable of

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yes, and some tables are perfectly fine with SNA IV even when SNA VII is what a straight Druid would be able to use. Not everyone is ruthlessly optimising like we are capable of

That wasn't the point he was trying to make. Of course, in some tables, being lower power is also good and can be even better not to overshadow the other players. But H_H_F_F was initially saying that having 6 RHD is a downgrade in terms of pure power compared to a pure druid, to which you answered "it depends", as if in some tables it didn't reduce the overall power of the druid. Yes it is always a downgrade, but no it's not inherently bad to have that downgrade. You both mostly agree with each other on the basic argument "losing caster level is bad for strict power, but it can be ok to lose this power in lower-optimization groups".

[H_H_F_F]

That wasn't the point he was trying to make. Of course, in some tables, being lower power is also good and can be even better not to overshadow the other players. But H_H_F_F was initially saying that having 6 RHD is a downgrade in terms of pure power compared to a pure druid, to which you answered "it depends", as if in some tables it didn't reduce the overall power of the druid. Yes it is always a downgrade, but no it's not inherently bad to have that downgrade. You both mostly agree with each other on the basic argument "losing caster level is bad for strict power, but it can be ok to lose this power in lower-optimization groups". Yup. 10 letters