Class Queries: Bloodrager and Arcanist [PF1]

[Aotrs Commander]

I am looking at porting over Bloodrager and Arcanist to my house rules1.

Where do they generally stand on the power curves and is there any particular things that need to be fixed? Anything I need to consider before greenlighting them? My initial examination would say (mercifully!) no.

The arcanist I wasnt even sure wasn't maybe a bit too good on first blush when I looked at it last time, but I'm not going to do anything to do it (ideally I really hope I don't have to, because that's be a quick-ish job!) I'm only nearly weeping with relief it's just the Sor/Wiz spell list, so I don't have to go through too many spell lists or anything!

Sidenote, to save me trawling through - are there are archtypes of other classes that use exploits? (I only yank in a limited set of archtypes when I do this. The players have enough decision paralysis as-is! But "archtypes that steal a bit of other classes" are ones I tend to include as easy choices.) I think there's at least, exploiter wizard (or sorcerer) off the top of my head.




Bloodrager on the other hand I'm very ambivilent about. I'm looking at it more for completeness2. Looking at various gudies and things as a starting point, I'm still leaning towards, "eh, I 'spose." But it's not been said as being horribly underpowered or anything, so again, hopefully I won't have to do anything. (Should note barbarian in the rules is mostly unchained, but still uses chained rage, not temporary hit points, so blood rager will be the same.)

One thing I am considering is just to shrug and roll primalist into the base chassis. Since if I allow it, literally anyone who plays a bloodrager is pretty much going to take that option, and the arguement against doing that is just "you can't take more than one archtype at once, can you?" (Can you, actually? I'm not sure now. If you can there's REALLY no reason not to.)

Cynically, one thing that has pushed me towards bloodrager is that they DON'T get the option to have [3.5] lion totem barbarian and thus get pounce at level one, which does maybe nudge them away from the "dual-wielding Shock Trooper pounce-murderer" build. (One of those long-term was plenty enough...!)



Also, I had it in mind that people were using a bloodrager archetype for some odd Wrath of the Rightous builds for some sort of variant (mental?) rage of something, but I'm fragged if I can work out what it was. I don't think I'm confusing it with the Skald's Court Poet.. Any ideas what I might be thinking of? Can't be something in Barb, can it?



1I'me taking a break from kineticst, because it's taking SO LONG. I put it the better part of nine-ten hours yesterday and only got as far as more or less finishing the infusions and i've still got all the utility talents to go..

2Exclusing Shifter (with it's notorious problems, plus it really just deosn't seem very interesting). medium/mesmerist/occultist/spritualist (because I alread have psionics, and I didn't see anything in psychic magic or those classes that was worth the effort of Making Mentalism Ala Rolemaster for) and Vigilante (which seem fine, but is just never going to be an appropriate class for use in any of my forseeable games given its duality).

[Rynjin]

One thing I am considering is just to shrug and roll primalist into the base chassis. Since if I allow it, literally anyone who plays a bloodrager is pretty much going to take that option, and the arguement against doing that is just "you can't take more than one archtype at once, can you?" (Can you, actually? I'm not sure now. If you can there's REALLY no reason not to.)

You can stack as many archetypes as you want as long as none of the ones you take alter or replace the same class features. There are some classes you can get basically a total replacement of all class features through archetype stacking, like Fighter.

Arcanist power level: 5e Wizards casting in Pathfinder, with a Sorcerer spell progression. Make of that what you will. It's strong, arguably the strongest arcane caster, but not by an amount that would make it "tier 0" or banworthy by any means. More of a sidegrademto Wizard if anything.

Bloodrager power level: Roughly identical to Barbarian in power level. If you give them Primalist for free, you may as well delete the Barbarian from the game though.

Unsure what you mean by "mental Rage". If you can describe some of the effects I can probably figure it out.

[Aotrs Commander]

Halfway through typing the reply, the power went out. Thought it might be the PC (had a couple of unexplained restarts in the last couple of months), but seems like it was, more severely, the kitchen sockets, and naturally, something in one of the critical applicances like the dishawaher, washer, tumberler or firdg-freezer that is a frackt o get to. (My money on the fridge freezer, since that would the mosy inconveniant sicne Mum and Dad are away on Friday.) Migth be the cause of the PC restarts after all, if something's been going maybe? (He says, with a dismal sense of hope that is not multitple things going wrong simultaneously again...?)

Good job I wsn't doing any actual work. But by thr same token, can't do aNYTHING until we fix the issue, since the PC will be on and off. *sigh*


You can stack as many archetypes as you want as long as none of the ones you take alter or replace the same class features. There are some classes you can get basically a total replacement of all class features through archetype stacking, like Fighter.

Arcanist power level: 5e Wizards casting in Pathfinder, with a Sorcerer spell progression. Make of that what you will. It's strong, arguably the strongest arcane caster, but not by an amount that would make it "tier 0" or banworthy by any means. More of a sidegrademto Wizard if anything.

That's why I was initially hesitant,. Then again the the archivist over waving with its Access To Literally All Divine Spells, so...


Bloodrager power level: Roughly identical to Barbarian in power level. If you give them Primalist for free, you may as well delete the Barbarian from the game though.

On the one hand, some players don't want to be bothered with spells, so that's not entirely true. (And, as mentioned, barbarians can get pounce at level 1, which nobody else can.)

On the other, given that you can pick any archtype, that means if primalist is in, it's defacto default becuase you literally don't lose anything by not picking it. Which indicates either it should be banned (well, in this case, not added to the list) or it might as well BE default.

Any suggestions on finding a feasible middle ground, or is it just a step too far?

[Rynjin]

They shouldn't be getting Pounce at 1, Greater Beast Totem isn't online until 10th and requires a pair of more meh Rage Powers to be taken first.

Primalist normally has a drawback of trading out your Bloodline powers for Rage Powers. It's not a huge tradeoff for some Bloodlines with terrible Bloodline powers at certain levels, but it's there. Usually what is meant by giving someone an archetype for free is that the tradeoffs are removed. Eg. some GMs might allow a Paladin to take the Oath of Vengeance without trading out Channel Energy and Aura of Justice becaus ethey think paladin needs a slight boost for their game.

[Kurald Galain]

Check the recent PF Tiering threads.

Bloodrager is fine for a more magically-empowered barbarian, and plays pretty similar. Arcanist arguably makes sorcerer obsolete, but wizard does still get its higher-level spells one level earlier, and has more spells per day. It doesn't really have a niche except as "vancian caster for people that don't like vancian casters".

[Rynjin]

It has a niche as "the ultimate flex caster".

Rather than Wizard, who can leave a certain number of slots open and fill them, Arcanist can straight up just change one of their prepared spells and cast it however many times they have slots of that level left; and they can do it faster than a Wizard. Good for when you quickly need a "silver bullet" to a problem and need to be able to cast it repeatedly.

[Aotrs Commander]

Whelp, semi-worst case scenario - not any of the applicances, which means more serious electric issues. Potentially Dad and his mate Who Know About These Things said it might be a case of swapping modules on the main board and using the spare one, otherwise, electrician job. Freezer is running off the seperate cooker sochet circuit, so that's at least something. But it means me washing all the pots by hand until it's fixed (and faffing about with the washing machine, tumbler and microwave on at a time on a extension from the kitchen. Woo.




They shouldn't be getting Pounce at 1, Greater Beast Totem isn't online until 10th and requires a pair of more meh Rage Powers to be taken first.

That's 'cos it's from 3.5; lion totem alternate class feature; replace Fast movement with ability to get Pounce, at level 1.

It's fine, the 18th level barbarian13/fighter 5 TWF (with 3.5's Shock Trooper, which allows Heedless Charge (PA penalty comes off AC, not attack) and using 3.5 PA (as a second option to PF1's) as -BAB attack/AC/ +BAB Damage) was very strong, but managable. I mean, I'm not saying he didn't kill just about every boss in the game, and he did do 700 damage that one time... But the party also had a wizard, a druid and cleric, so...! Actually, I also mostly blame the bard for giving them all a +8/+8+4D6 to attack and damage by the end.

(Also, he get downed and actually killed once, because if by chance what he was attacking DIDN'T die, -22AC (-18 PA, -2 rage -2 charge...) tended to mean he got full-attacked back. (And once, he had it coming the other way from a giant barbarian...!1)

BUT, anyway, that is getting more 3.Aotrs than PF1, but the point I was getting at was barbarian wouldn't be entirely redundant. Moreover, I also think that that point is irrelevant, since it appears we were thinking different things when I said I was thinking about rolling into the base class.


Primalist normally has a drawback of trading out your Bloodline powers for Rage Powers. It's not a huge tradeoff for some Bloodlines with terrible Bloodline powers at certain levels, but it's there. Usually what is meant by giving someone an archetype for free is that the tradeoffs are removed. Eg. some GMs might allow a Paladin to take the Oath of Vengeance without trading out Channel Energy and Aura of Justice becaus ethey think paladin needs a slight boost for their game.

All I meant was simplythat trade-off gets written into in the class features as default, and it says "at 4th, 8th (etc) level, you select either your blood power or two rage powers." Rather than having it be an archtype.

Not "basic bloodragers get two rage powers AND their bloodline power," frack, no...!

I will, as is my wont, also use the guides to go through and look at stuff and if I think "yeah, that's crap" change or buff it or something, which means some of the weaker bloodline powers (that I choose to import) will get buffed.

(Part of the reason the kineticist is taking so long is that I'm doing that in addition to copying it over to my documents2, reformating said entries, making tweaks if necessary, adding the SLAs to the spread sheet list (and making up the short summaries) and in this case logging what SLAs of what path at what level so I can try and make them be a little bit more even.)





Check the recent PF Tiering threads.

Bloodrager is fine for a more magically-empowered barbarian, and plays pretty similar. Arcanist arguably makes sorcerer obsolete, but wizard does still get its higher-level spells one level earlier, and has more spells per day. It doesn't really have a niche except as "vancian caster for people that don't like vancian casters".

That sounds like I am fine to port them across without too much worry, basically.



1Also, sort of to make a point, today was the first time I head about "rage-cycling" since it never came up in all that time...!

2So it can be printed in a concise format, because while we do have mobiles and kindles, paper is still best and 3.Aotrs started - in theory - as master listings of Stuff so that WOULDN'T have to carry a shelf-full of splatbooks down the club every week. Which is why we only have four places to look for spells, CR1, SpC, PHBII and The Spells Document (and more and more of the former is moving to the latter, because my CR1 - nevermind the DMG - is looking a bit ropy after twenty years of more-or-less weekly use...!)

[Gnaeus]

Slightly like kineticist (and I love Arcanist, and hate kineticist) some of the exploits are a bit overly expensive for what they do. And the workaround is cheesy.

My favorite example. Brown Furred Transmuter. I love this concept. It lets you cast polymorph on teammates, like you should always have been able to do for free because it is being a team player. Or boost a transmutation spell by +2 to a stat, which is solid as a power. Not broken strong, but good. But both of those exploits require arcane reservoir, so you are stuck using the tricks that you built your class around (because pretty obviously you did) a handful of times per day, and you would generally be better off using those AR points elsewhere. So you need a better refresh rate for AR. As it happens, there is one. Fiendish Proboscis. Get an improved familiar and lick yourself to full between fights. If you are using your pool for some of the stronger uses, like battering blast builds, its probably too good. But it is necessary to make weaker powers worth using. I shudder to think about trying to play a teamwork oriented transmuter in a party that isn't cool with using demonic powers to siphon energy so you can cast spells on them.

[Rynjin]

Brown Fur is definitely one of those weird archetypes that makes me go "Did they make this for Gestalt characters only?". Blade Adept is the real offender there though.

[Aotrs Commander]

Wow, I actually was able to add ALL of arcanist yesterday, sans specific feats and archtypes. What a refreshing bit of progress compared to the slog of kineticist...!


Slightly like kineticist (and I love Arcanist, and hate kineticist) some of the exploits are a bit overly expensive for what they do. And the workaround is cheesy.

My favorite example. Brown Furred Transmuter. I love this concept. It lets you cast polymorph on teammates, like you should always have been able to do for free because it is being a team player. Or boost a transmutation spell by +2 to a stat, which is solid as a power. Not broken strong, but good. But both of those exploits require arcane reservoir, so you are stuck using the tricks that you built your class around (because pretty obviously you did) a handful of times per day, and you would generally be better off using those AR points elsewhere. So you need a better refresh rate for AR. As it happens, there is one. Fiendish Proboscis. Get an improved familiar and lick yourself to full between fights. If you are using your pool for some of the stronger uses, like battering blast builds, its probably too good. But it is necessary to make weaker powers worth using. I shudder to think about trying to play a teamwork oriented transmuter in a party that isn't cool with using demonic powers to siphon energy so you can cast spells on them.

*first checks own rules to ensure that there are legitimately personal-range transmutations availble to be cast; yes* (Because RYFMA (Read Your F[racking] Manual Aotrs) is the first watch word, because I inevitabley find I HAVE written the fix for that and just forgotten...)


Given that I don't have to beholden to what's written (if somewhat conscious specifically that my rules on polymorph are somewhere between 3.5's and PF1's) and obviously not wanting to get overpowered, because noted, already very strong, what sort of modification ought to be put into place to grant arcanists Sufficiently Reasonable reservoir? A higher base reservoir? A better conversion rate of Consume Spell (which seems the primary way to get points back).

It did strike a little odd that you don't refill to max every day (short of Owlcat!Mythic), though I get the reasoning to have some spare for, like consume or the other I Nick Your Stuff For Points abilities.




Blade Adept is the real offender there though.

Genuniely, is it worth salvaging? I noted the general dismissiveness against it in the guides I was looking at, though I have left Arcane Weapon exploit in for the moment. With both magus and duskblade on the table - and moreover, SOULKNIFE (if psionic) - it ultimately does seem to be a bit pointless.

(It would also require, it would seem, adding Bladebound Magus archtype as well. And upon lookinh at it, that gives an intelligent magic weapon (bleh) which looks very much like it would be strictly inferior to anything you're going to be picking up - well at least under my purview, especially when Magic Item Compendium's "you can just upgrade your items" and stuff. )

I mean, it seems to me if people really, really, really wanted to have a special magical sword that was a class feature and didn't want to play Soulknife, I feel like I'd better served saying "yeah, just play a [whatever] x/Soulknife and I'll make you all-special-like a hybrid PrC - the sort I let you enter at level 31 - and have at it."

But if somebody want to make an arguement in defence of Blade Adept (albiet one does not include "use a PrC," since my stance is if it's not good enough to 20 levels, it's not making it in), I'm open, but it sort of doesn't seem like it's a particular bit worth saving...?



One might argue that I might be better served, even, given Spellthief (which hopefully Doesn't Suck now anyway after my go-over) an archtype to allow it to have arcanist exploits anyway. Something like "remove Spellgrace (competance bonus to saves verses spell, so something to trade off), gain reservoir and ability to take explit instead of rogue talent (which they get every 4th level)."




1Like Revised Mystic Theurge, since 3.0's "You Must Be This Level To Ride" Arbitary PrC limit for hybrid classes can go to a random level of the abyss. (Better for playability, too, since you get faster spell progression at lower spell levels, and slowed down on the higher level spells out the other side.)

[Gnaeus]

here are legitimately personal-range transmutations availble to be cast; yes* (Because RYFMA (Read Your F[racking] Manual Aotrs) is the first watch word, because I inevitabley find I HAVE written the fix for that and just forgotten...)


Given that I don't have to beholden to what's written (if somewhat conscious specifically that my rules on polymorph are somewhere between 3.5's and PF1's) and obviously not wanting to get overpowered, because noted, already very strong, what sort of modification ought to be put into place to grant arcanists Sufficiently Reasonable reservoir? A higher base reservoir? A better conversion rate of Consume Spell (which seems the primary way to get points back).

It did strike a little odd that you don't refill to max every day (short of Owlcat!Mythic), though I get the reasoning to have some spare for, like consume or the other I Nick Your Stuff For Points abilities.


Given that an exploit is essentially a feat (you can take metamagic/item creation feats with them, or spend feats to get them), my first thought is that free is not OP. In this case, which, again, is my personal favorite, but hardly the only one, would anyone say that a feat that makes it so that when you cast Alter Self and get +2 dex, you instead get +4 dex, or a feat that lets you cast your transmutation spells on your fighter or rogue (which again, IMO, should be encouraged as cooperative play) is OP? I mean the #3 transmutation ability, shift caster, is basically Natural Spell but costs 1 AR per spell cast. Obviously the purpose is you can cast Beast Shape and still be a caster, like a druid can (but with a much shorter duration), but thats so expensive its just bad, so you will just ignore it and take a form you can cast in. Failing free, I would suggest for the weaker exploits, that you give a number of free uses per day, maybe 3, and you can get extra uses by spending AR. Because really, what the arcanist is really good at is using AR to supercharge level dependent spells. Any use which is worse than "I cast Battering Blast with extra caster level" fails as an opportunity cost.

Consume Spell is an emergency use for most of the characters life. Remember Arcanists get way less spells per day than wizards or sorcerers. Usually somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of sorcerer spells/day, and THAT weighted towards lower level spells. If you don't have enough spells to get you through 4 combats with a normal morning buff routine, you sure aren't converting spells to give your fighter a buff or yourself an extra +2 dex for a few minutes.

[Aotrs Commander]

Given that an exploit is essentially a feat (you can take metamagic/item creation feats with them, or spend feats to get them), my first thought is that free is not OP. In this case, which, again, is my personal favorite, but hardly the only one, would anyone say that a feat that makes it so that when you cast Alter Self and get +2 dex, you instead get +4 dex, or a feat that lets you cast your transmutation spells on your fighter or rogue (which again, IMO, should be encouraged as cooperative play) is OP? I mean the #3 transmutation ability, shift caster, is basically Natural Spell but costs 1 AR per spell cast. Obviously the purpose is you can cast Beast Shape and still be a caster, like a druid can (but with a much shorter duration), but thats so expensive its just bad, so you will just ignore it and take a form you can cast in. Failing free, I would suggest for the weaker exploits, that you give a number of free uses per day, maybe 3, and you can get extra uses by spending AR. Because really, what the arcanist is really good at is using AR to supercharge level dependent spells. Any use which is worse than "I cast Battering Blast with extra caster level" fails as an opportunity cost.

Hm. I will have to give that some thought. On the one hand, you make a good argument - on the other, letting Arcanists have the option to do nothing but splurge on upping the DCs is not something I wat to particularly encourage. Caster level is neither here nor there, but save DC IS something that is quite powerful - especially if it can be stacked on top of other things.

(As hilarious as finishing Wrath of the Righteous with a save DC of around 50+ and one-hit-killing demigods was, it's not something I would want to happen on a table with an actual dungeonmaster, especially when that dungeonmaster is me.)

As I say, I will have to have a think about it.




Consume Spell is an emergency use for most of the characters life. Remember Arcanists get way less spells per day than wizards or sorcerers. Usually somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of sorcerer spells/day, and THAT weighted towards lower level spells. If you don't have enough spells to get you through 4 combats with a normal morning buff routine, you sure aren't converting spells to give your fighter a buff or yourself an extra +2 dex for a few minutes.

I'm looking a that one a bit blank, though, I'm afraid. Comparing the spells per day, Arcanists seem to be pretty much exactly between Wizards and Sorcerers. They get more spells than the former (save only at the levels they are behind because they get a new level of spell later). Casting stats will be the same (since I don't use non-linear costs for linear stat progression1), so the base spells per day table will be upped at parity for all three.



1Because that was always stupid in 3.0 where it was another clearly left behind artifice of AD&D which was terrified of the idea of not making RNG "special." With the very generous point-for-point stat buy I allow, realistically no wizard, arcanist or sorcerer will be starting with less than 18 or 20 in their casting stat, because they'd have to be actively choosing to be bad at their job. The Arcanist, for instance, would seem unlikely to starting at less than 18/20 Int and 18/16 Cha and still have decent Dex, passable Con and Wis and dumping Str.

[Thunder999]

So the arcanist basically trades being stuck on the sorcerer's delayed progression for being otherwise better than a wizard, they've got that flexible hybrid casting, archetypes to take their pick of a sorcerer bloodline or wizard school and the almighty Quick Study that lets them change prepared spells as a full round action.

[Gnaeus]

Hm. I will have to give that some thought. On the one hand, you make a good argument - on the other, letting Arcanists have the option to do nothing but splurge on upping the DCs is not something I wat to particularly encourage. Caster level is neither here nor there, but save DC IS something that is quite powerful - especially if it can be stacked on top of other things.

If the intention is to balance options by removing the strongest ones, I wouldn't argue. But "you can spend this feat that will then let you spend points in sub-optimal ways, with the rider that the superior mechanical option is also less geared to team play" seems like bad game design.




I'm looking a that one a bit blank, though, I'm afraid. Comparing the spells per day, Arcanists seem to be pretty much exactly between Wizards and Sorcerers. They get more spells than the former (save only at the levels they are behind because they get a new level of spell later). Casting stats will be the same (since I don't use non-linear costs for linear stat progression1), so the base spells per day table will be upped at parity for all three.


I don't know what your wizard rewrite looks like, but "It gets more spells than wizards except for the half of the levels when they don't and except for the 80% of wizards who specialize" seems like "they get less spells than wizards" with extra steps. The Arcanist can specialize like a wizard, in exchange for essentially giving up all archetypes and 3 exploits (feat equivalents)


So the arcanist basically trades being stuck on the sorcerer's delayed progression for being otherwise better than a wizard, they've got that flexible hybrid casting, archetypes to take their pick of a sorcerer bloodline or wizard school and the almighty Quick Study that lets them change prepared spells as a full round action.

I would add that while the Arcanist TABLE has the same number of spells known as a sorcerer, Sorcerers get extra spells known from bloodline (which arcanists who pick the sorcerer archetype don't get) and from favored class picks. I would usually rather have 8 spells known than 5 and I swapped one out that morning because I didn't think it would be helpful that day.

[Rynjin]

You have any source for "80% of Wizards specialize"? I've never heard that figure before.

[Gnaeus]

You have any source for "80% of Wizards specialize"? I've never heard that figure before.

I agree. in my experience, that number is low. 90%? 95% Every wizard I have ever seen specializes. Every wizard I have ever seen on a board specializes except for elven generalists (not PF) who also get more spells. And since specialization is virtually always strictly better (except for things like elven generalists as mentioned) as the optimization level increases, the specialization rate presumably does also.

[Kurald Galain]

Comparing the spells per day, Arcanists seem to be pretty much exactly between Wizards and Sorcerers. They get more spells than the former
A 10th-level arcanist has 18 spells per day (not counting bonus spells for high int, and less if they use their Consume Spells ability), a 10th-level wizard has 22 to 27 spells per day, a 10th-level sorcerer has 26, and a 10th-level magus (of all things) can get to around 20 using spell recall.

So no, the arcanist is not "pretty much exactly between" in spells per day; when it comes to primary casters, the arcanist is right at the bottom.


Every wizard I have ever seen specializes.
I concur; literally every wizard I've seen in PF1 is a specialist. Heck, literally every wizard I've seen in 3E (outside theory op) or 2E or 1E was also a specialist.

[Aotrs Commander]

If the intention is to balance options by removing the strongest ones, I wouldn't argue. But "you can spend this feat that will then let you spend points in sub-optimal ways, with the rider that the superior mechanical option is also less geared to team play" seems like bad game design.

I mean, if I am going to give the arcanists less stuff to spend their reservoir on, I would be more inclined to take away the option to boost spell save DCs, because it's already almost too easy to boost those and that's very strong. I explictly don't want arcanists to be able save all their reservoir points just so they can push the DCs (and to a lesser extent caster levels) up. Because it's never going to be a boost in isolation, its going to come on top of all the other options already available. (Important distinction: "be inclined" not "have not currently planned to do so.")

(Note: Debate contention aside, I am still not ruling out doing some of the things you suggest, mind.)


I don't know what your wizard rewrite looks like, but "It gets more spells than wizards except for the half of the levels when they don't and except for the 80% of wizards who specialize" seems like "they get less spells than wizards" with extra steps. The Arcanist can specialize like a wizard, in exchange for essentially giving up all archetypes and 3 exploits (feat equivalents)


I concur; literally every wizard I've seen in PF1 is a specialist. Heck, literally every wizard I've seen in 3E (outside theory op) or 2E or 1E was also a specialist.

My own experience is counter to that. Maybe half of the wizard PCs (never mind the majority of NPCs which don't) since 3.0? The one which reached epic was not a specialist. We had one last party and a focussed specialist this one (both conjurers, but with completely different focusses), but before that, the last one I can remember was my Necromancer/Pale Master.

However, I do note that Arcanists ALSO can specialise and thus also get the extra number of spells. So I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare a specialised wizard to a non-specialised arcanist and say "they don't have enough spells." (Counting that, it puts the Arcanist up to 23 spells at level 10. Still less, but much closer.)

Sidenote: I did very little to the wizard; frankly, it was only playing Owlcat!Kingmaker that I relented to let wizards and clerics move up to PF1 standards. (Wizards and other primary casters stayed on D4 HD; though - in fairness - the "d" part of HD is a misnomer, since the PCs (and most of the monsters) get maximum hit points anyway (and due to stat allocation, reasonable Con and Dex for good measure. There are very few classes which get a D6, only 7 out of 62, and most of those are the 3.5 fixed-list casters.)


I would add that while the Arcanist TABLE has the same number of spells known as a sorcerer, Sorcerers get extra spells known from bloodline (which arcanists who pick the sorcerer archetype don't get) and from favored class picks. I would usually rather have 8 spells known than 5 and I swapped one out that morning because I didn't think it would be helpful that day.

I should probably note that favoured classes don't exist (sorry, I would have sooner, but since I ignore the option as a matter of course, I forget they are A Thing.) That was a concept I scrapped in early 3.0 and Pathfinder's attempt to make the idea meaningful I found equally pointless (and more over, would have required FAR more work for me in that I would have to make stuff up EVERY single time I added or created a new race or class. Especially with, now, 62 base classes.) So that's a non-issue, at least, since nobody gets those.


A 10th-level arcanist has 18 spells per day (not counting bonus spells for high int, and less if they use their Consume Spells ability), a 10th-level wizard has 22 to 27 spells per day, a 10th-level sorcerer has 26, and a 10th-level magus (of all things) can get to around 20 using spell recall.

So no, the arcanist is not "pretty much exactly between" in spells per day; when it comes to primary casters, the arcanist is right at the bottom.

Okay, taking into account everything you have both said so far, why are arcanists still reputed to be the most powerful arcane caster?

Genuniely? So far you and Gnaeus seem to be arguing that "the arcanist isn't strong enough, you should buff them" but that runs counter to what I have heard about them being extremely strong, given that they have the best of both worlds by dint of the casting method. (And them over-level was what made me pass over them the last time around.)

I have no problems in buffing up weaker options to make them better or more competative, but I also don't want to buff options that are already strong. Basically, if the option is already "you'd be daft not to take it," it's extremely unlikely to be getting an improvement.

[Rynjin]

As I mentioned in my first post, they're very strong in a weird way. Like a sidegrade to Wizard in all the ways that matter (spells; less per day but used more flexibly), but that doesn't mean that some of their class features can't be considered underpowered or poorly designed.

Like Wizard would still be the most powerful class in the game even without Arcane Schools and Discoveries...it's just more boring.

[Kurald Galain]

why are arcanists still reputed to be the most powerful arcane caster?
They're not. If you check tiering or class comparison threads, they consistently rank (slightly) below the wizard.


Genuniely? So far you and Gnaeus seem to be arguing that "the arcanist isn't strong enough, you should buff them"
Not at all. The wizard is quite literally the strongest class in the game, so being (slightly) weaker than a wizard is not an insult to the arcanist.

Rather, I'm saying that there's very little reason for a system to have both arcanist and wizard, because they have the exact same flavor and playstyle, with (slightly) different mechanics.

[Aotrs Commander]

So your collective opinion is that the arcanist probably needs more reservoir (or, at least mitigation of uses of the reservoir it has) to leverage that mechanic to adequately distinguish it from the wizard?

(Preferably without increasing its power too much, but by the same token that it is still Not Better Than Wizard (which is one of the things I had heard).)

[Kurald Galain]

So your collective opinion is that the arcanist probably needs more reservoir (or, at least mitigation of uses of the reservoir it has) to leverage that mechanic to adequately distinguish it from the wizard?
No, because that's just another "X uses per day" ability, and wizard schools also get "X uses per day" abilities.

I would start by writing down why, flavor-wise, an arcanist is meaningfully distinct from a wizard. If that doesn't go anywhere, drop the class (or if you prefer, keep it and drop the wizard). If it does, use that as the basis for distinct mechanics.

Like, "wizard but he can fire energy bolts" is not a distinction; wizard can also do that. "Wizard but he can prepare a spell in six seconds instead of sixty" is not a distinction either, only a bonus. "Wizard but instead of studying you got magic from your bloodline" is a distinction, but that one is taken by the sorcerer. $.02

[vasilidor]

A potentially game breaking ability for arcanists is Quick Study.
It is always worth taking allowing a prepped caster to trade out what spell they have ready at a moments notice, enabling the quantum wizard effect.
It takes a standard action and a spell point though, but if they are playing smart and using spells to scout ahead they can then alter their load out rather easily this way.

The exploiter wizard has access to arcanist exploits in place of a school and arcane bond.

[Aotrs Commander]

No, because that's just another "X uses per day" ability, and wizard schools also get "X uses per day" abilities.

I would start by writing down why, flavor-wise, an arcanist is meaningfully distinct from a wizard. If that doesn't go anywhere, drop the class (or if you prefer, keep it and drop the wizard). If it does, use that as the basis for distinct mechanics.

Like, "wizard but he can fire energy bolts" is not a distinction; wizard can also do that. "Wizard but he can prepare a spell in six seconds instead of sixty" is not a distinction either, only a bonus. "Wizard but instead of studying you got magic from your bloodline" is a distinction, but that one is taken by the sorcerer. $.02


The meaningful distinction starts at "is a hybrid between spontaneous and prepared casters."

Now, I appreciate that by itself might not be enough, and we're wending towards a discussion in which temrs like "design space" are going to show up, so let me pre-empt that by showing the current class list for the 3.Aotrs, including all currently authorised classes and archtypes (not includng individual alternative class features). I'mma have to spoiler it, because it's long.

ALCHEMIST
Aerochemist (Archetype)
Beastmorph (Archetype)
Gloom Chymist (Archetype)
Grenadier (Archetype)
Vaultbreaker (Archetype)
Vivisectionist (Archetype)

ANTIPALADIN
Unholy Terror (Archetype)
Intulo Templar (Archetype)

ARCHIVIST

ARCANIST
Occultist (Archetype)
School Savant (Archetype)
Unlettered Arcanist (Archetype)
(Potentially more pending, but it was about 1 in the morning when I made myself stop.)

ARDENT

BARBARIAN

Armoured Hulk (Archetype)
Beastkin Berserker (Archetype)
Invulnerable Rager (Archetype)
Mad Dog (Archetype)

BARD
Dervish Dancer (Archetype)
Dirgesinger (Archetype)
Sound Striker (Archetype)
Thundercaller (Archetype)

BEGUILER

BLOODRAGER (Pending)

BRAWLER
Shield Champion (Archetype)

CLERIC
Ecclesitheurge (Archetype)
Undead Lord (Archetype)

CRUSADER

DIVINE MIND

DRAGON SHAMAN

DREAD NECROMANCER

DRUID
Menhir Savant (Archetype)
Restorer (Archetype)
Shapeshifter (Archetype)

DUSKBLADE
Dusk Magus (Archetype)

ERUDITE

FANGSHI (nee kineticist)
Zǔzhòu Fangshi (Archetype) (nee Arakineticist)
(Again, potentially more to be added.)

FIGHTER
Archer (Archetype)
Drill Sergeant (Archetype)
Martial Master (Archetype)
Mobile Fighter (Archetype)
Mutation Warrior (Archetype)
Polearm Master (Archetype)

GUNSLINGER
Bolt Ace (Archetype)

HEXBLADE
Aspect Blade (Archetype)
Bonded Servitor (Archetype)

HUNTER
Feral Hunter (Archetype)
Primal Companion Hunter (Archetype)

INQUISITOR
Monster Tactician (Archetype)
Sacred Huntsmaster (Archetype)
Tactical Leader (Archetype)

INVESTIGATOR
Empiricist (Archetype)
Cipher (Archetype)
Lamplighter (Archetype)
Questioner (Archetype)

KNIGHT
Cavalier (Archetype)
Constable (Archetype)
Samurai (Archetype)

LURK

MAGUS
Card Caster (Archetype)
Eldritch Archer (Archetype)
Hexcrafter (Archetype)
Staff Magus (Archetype)

MARKSMAN
Spearman (Archetype)

MARSHAL

MONK
Drunken Master (Archetype)
Monk of the Mantis (Archetype)
Scaled Fist (Archetype)
Sensei (Archetype)
Sublime Monk (Archetype)
Windstep Master (Archetype)
Zen Archer (Archetype)

NINJA
Invisible Blade (Archetype)

ORACLE
Ancient Lorekeeper (Archetype)
Favoured Soul (Archetype)
Spirit Guide (Archetype)
Warsighted (Archetype)

PALADIN
Holy Commander (Archetype)

PSION
Devoted Psion (Archetype)

PSYCHIC ROGUE

PSYCHIC WARRIOR

RANGER
Guide (Archetype)
Skirmisher (Archetype)
Wild Hunter (Archetype)

ROGUE
Acrobat (Archetype)
Eldritch Scoundrel (Archetype)
Knife Master (Archetype)
Master of Disguise (Archetype)
Pirate (Archetype)
Rake (Archetype)
Sly Saboteur (Archetype)
Thug (Archetype)

SCOUT

SEKKOU

SHAMAN
Possessed Shaman (Archetype)
Speaker for the Past (Archetype)
Unsworn Shaman (Archetype)

SHUGENJA

SKALD
Totem Channeller (Archetype)

SLAYER
Bounty Hunter (Archetype)
Assassin (Archetype)
Sniper (Archetype)

SORCERER

SOULKNIFE
Armoured Blade (Archetype)
Cutthroat (Archetype)
Deadly Fist (Archetype)
Nimble Blade (Archetype)
Soulbolt (Archetype)
Shielded Blade (Archetype)

SPELLTHIEF

SPIRIT SHAMAN

SUMMONER
Master Summoner (Archetype)
Synthesist (Archetype)

SWASHBUCKLER
Flying Blade (Archetype)

SWORDSAGE

TACTICIAN
Swarmer (Archetype)

TRACKER

WARBLADE

WARLOCK
Curse Warlock (Archetype)
Enlightened Spirit (Archetype)

WARMAGE

WARPRIEST
Cult Leader (Archetype)
Lay Priest (Archetype)
Sacred Fist (Archetype)
Shieldbearer (Archetype)

WILDER

WITCH
Aspect Invoker (Archetype)
Gravewalker (Archetype)
Havocker (Archetype)
Hedge Witch (Archetype)
Herb Witch (Archetype)
Ley Line Guardian (Archetype)
Seducer (Archetype)
Winter Witch (Archetype)

WIZARD
Elemental Specialist (Archetype)
Exploiter Wizard (Archetype)
Necromancer Lord (Archetype)

WU JEN

Note (or TL:DR) that it has both magus and duskblade. It had rogue, ninja, scout, psychic rogue, sekkou and spelltheif (and technically lurk, but that's been so fairly heavily revised is very dissimilar). It has both shaman and spirit shaman. It has ranger, hunter, tracker and scout. It has wizard, sorcerer, wu jen and now arcanist (and arguably witch). There are at least - on-brand - three character classes/archtypes which are necromancer specialists.

So believe me when I say, 3.Aotrs is explictly not about doing the absolute minimum number of functional character classes, and "cast spells in a different fashion" is entirely sufficient to justify the arcanist's conclusion. Hell, it's now technically the arcane equivalent to the spirit shaman.

(Now, if anyone want to make me an argument the SS is a better basis for hybrid casting that the arcanist had I'm open, but the spirit shaman doesn't get exploits, and it "only" has the druid spell list, which is not as good as the wizard spell list. (In the sense it's not the literal best spell list in te game except for maybe the archivist's.))

It's about Having More LEGO blocks, because neither 3.5 nor PF1 had enough LEGO blocks seperately. (3.Aotrs is not quite all of 3.5 plus all of Pathfinder, but its probably 50-75% of each at least, with an emphasis towards eliminating the junk or "so niche it will realisitcally never come up in a game even though it is potentually useful" options.)



From that basis, then, flavour only pertains to the explict way in which mechanics interact to create a mechanical "feel" and fluff is otherwise entirely mutable beyond the mechanics. Classes are considered a meta-game construct and contrary to what I believe both WotC and Paizo's official policy, players are actively encouraged to change the fluff of their mechanics as much as they like. Thus, if they want for, for instance, play a ninja Like Off Of Naruto by using a straight cleric x/monk 2 and change all the spell names so they can shout "Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palm Strike!" every time they cast Harm, they are encouraged to do so. (None of this "you have to take a feat to make you spells look different" bollocks.) (In fact, said character existed specifically to do that with the cleric, and not any of the more readily obvious means of achieving Doing A Naruto, including of course the famous Psionic Naruto Builds which I even made a point of saving to my HDD back in the day.)

Hopefully that illustrates why I am quite happy with having both wizard and arcanist, and only about ensuring the latter fits in (with potential upgrades) without accidentally breaking something. (Especially with regards as to how you fine folks can only inform, since you obvious can't be purview to 3.Aotrs in full, at least not without an email dump and a lot of spare reading time...!) As ultimately, I have to try and consider stuff that might break, when combined in ways never conceived by the original creators.




A potentially game breaking ability for arcanists is Quick Study.
It is always worth taking allowing a prepped caster to trade out what spell they have ready at a moments notice, enabling the quantum wizard effect.
It takes a standard action and a spell point though, but if they are playing smart and using spells to scout ahead they can then alter their load out rather easily this way.

I can fairly safely say, given how infrequently anyone ever uses divination magic, I don't particularly see the latter coming up much out of actual combat. I don't beleive, for instance, literally anyone ever in 23 years has the used the "you can leave a spell slot open and fill it up" option.




The exploiter wizard has access to arcanist exploits in place of a school and arcane bond.

Knew that one from reading around WotR; having done the exploits, I added that to the list last night, even.

Are there any others?



That actually neatly brings me to something else I have been considering since yoinking over the exploits yesterday.

As noted, Spellthief is a thing. 3.Aotrs spellthief has largely the same class features (D8 HD of course), except they get the ability to steal from magic items at level 3 and very much more pertinently, Bard-level casting (i.e. 6/9 not 4/9). Currently, they also get a rogue talent at every 4th level, but I am now wondering whether I should allow them to take arcanist exploits, either as a standard class feature or as an archtype. Thoughts?

[Zanos]

I concur; literally every wizard I've seen in PF1 is a specialist. Heck, literally every wizard I've seen in 3E (outside theory op) or 2E or 1E was also a specialist.
In 3e, specializing is almost never worth it if you actually examine the spells that you're giving up and factor in that accessing your entire spellbook is very easy as a full round action with two feats, spell mastery and uncanny forethought. Even commonly banned schools contain unique effects like force effects and contingency in evocation, nearly unlimited minionmancy, magic jar, some of the earliest AoE SoL spells in necromancy, and possibly the earliest SoL spells and interrogation in enchantment. You might ban Necromancy because reanimating corpses and stealing the bodies of your enemies to run them into the ground is considered distasteful in some games, but Necro has some of the most powerful effects in the game. I don't consider using Magic Jar, Animate Dead, Scare, Sleep, Charm Person, Grave Mist, Ray of Stupidity, Contingency, Wall of Force, etc. etc. to be TO.

This is doubly the case because alternatives to specialization are easy to qualify for, either costing literally nothing if Domain Wizard is available, or only that you be one of the best wizard races anyway for Gray Elf Generalists.

In Pathfinder not getting access to an effect isn't a concern, since barred spells simply cost two spell slots. However, the real treat for specialists in PF is the school powers, especially from Divination allowing the wizard to nearly always win initiative and cheese their rolls. However, these abilities, while powerful, usually aren't very potent until high levels, and are usually not as good as a Wizard archetype that trades school specialization for another feature, such as Exploiter(which combos with Pact, also).

More on topic, Arcanist is basically strictly worse than Wizard if you know what you're doing. Delayed casting by a level, fewer slots than a sorcerer, exploits don't really make your spells go further outside of potent magic and only a few are worth taking at all, with most greater exploits being outright crap. You do get to dynamically choose your spell allocation from all spells prepared at a certain level, but actually looking at the numbers reveals this to be not incredibly helpful much of the time, and is actively a detriment if you want to use spells you might only cast once or twice a day, such as buff spells. Arcanist is by no means bad, and still gets access to the entire sorcerer/wizard list with a days rest, but it can't hold a candle to the wizard that gets to poach all of its best abilities without delayed spellcasting progression or oddly restrictive spellcasting.

[Kurald Galain]

In 3e, specializing is almost never worth it if you actually examine the spells that you're giving up
Sure, that's one opinion; another opinion on these forums is that Focused Specialist is the best way to go. Treantmonk, author of the most famous 3E wizard guide, wrote a lengthy explanation why FS is better than generalist (the PF equivalent would be Thassilonian Specialist wizard).

But that's both in theory; and in practice, every single 3E wizard that I've seen is in fact a (non-focused) specialist.

[Zanos]

Sure, that's one opinion; another opinion on these forums is that Focused Specialist is the best way to go. Treantmonk, author of the most famous 3E wizard guide, wrote a lengthy explanation why FS is better than generalist (the PF equivalent would be Thassilonian Specialist wizard).
I'm aware, and I disagree with his reasoning. Not that a Treantmonk wizard is anywhere near bad, I just don't think it's the best way to build a wizard if you want to be as effective as possible in as wide a range of situations as possible, including out of combat. That said, I don't particularly believe that Treantmonks opinions on wizards(or anyone else's, for that matter) are more valid than yours or mine because he wrote a now outdated guide. Again, not that the guide is bad either, but there's plenty of information in nearly every guide that's >10 years old that isn't accurate.


But that's both in theory; and in practice, every single 3E wizard that I've seen is in fact a (non-focused) specialist.
I could send you a half dozen generalist sheets I've played if you want? :smalltongue: Currently playing a 3.5 domain wizard and a PF1e exploiter wizard.

That said I think this is just a problem of not looking very hard. Even older threads on these very boards have people talking spiritedly about whether or not specializing is worth it, and saying they don't play specialists.

[Gnaeus]

In 3e, specializing is almost never worth it

This is so laughably, obviously wrong I will pretend it is blue



This is doubly the case because alternatives to specialization are easy to qualify for, either costing literally nothing if Domain Wizard is available, or only that you be one of the best wizard races anyway for Gray Elf Generalists.

Yes, 100% of the valid reasons not to specialize involve other ways to get additional spells, which since we were discussing spells per day is not a counter-argument. I will admit that Domain wizards and Elven generalists are a thing, but they support, not disprove the argument.

[Zanos]

This is so laughably, obviously wrong I will pretend it is blue
Really man? :smallsigh:


Yes, 100% of the valid reasons not to specialize involve other ways to get additional spells
I also mentioned that having access to all of the schools itself is a reason to not specialize, and listed spells from commonly banned schools that are very good. So no, my argument wasn't 100% about getting more spell slots.


which since we were discussing spells per day is not a counter-argument. I will admit that Domain wizards and Elven generalists are a thing, but they support, not disprove the argument.
They're exclusive, so no, they do disprove the argument. I'm not arguing that more spell slots is bad, I'm arguing that specialization is bad. If there are ways to get more spell slots without being a specialist that have negligible costs, of course those things are still good. You're trying to force an argument on me that I never made.

[Aotrs Commander]

Tell you what folks, how about I straight-up give Arcanists the Wizard's Arcance School class instead of making it an archtype, which means they have exactly the same choices as the wizard or whether or not to specialise and fon't have to sacrifice any exploits. Adfter all, I was happy enough to let wizards have the Pathfinder school features (when in no way did clerics, druids or wizards need any kind of bonuses over 3.5!), so I am happy that's not a significant power-boost (ooh, specialisaed arcnaists get three more exploits...) and starts to address the raised issue of spells. That should at least neutral out the specialisation debate, yes?

[vasilidor]

Leave slots open?
I do that.
But with quick study you do not have to.
And I always use scrying and prying eyes when I can.
Not that the rest of the party pays any attention to what I scry.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay. So after another couple of days of hard graft (adding races, alternate racial features and then resorting the feats and removing all the odd-stat prereqs (e.g. 13=>12)... Because I still cna't face going back to the kineticist, but this way I've made progress and compartmentalisied the work I need to so I could actually just leave it Actaully Get To Quest Writing at some point...

Bloodrager tomorrow and maybe arcanist archtypes and the decision about what tod o with some of the exploits.

But, hand in hand with that comes the Spellthief question.

The spelltheif was, of coruse really paff in 3.5 because it... didn't really DO much. I've buffed it a bit, giving it 2/3 (i.e. bard et al) casting for a start. But I worry that even with some extra leverage on being able to nick spells from your mates or from magic items that the main ablility is a bit too niche.

Allowing arcanist exploits in some fashion seems like a sort of natural thematic fit. The question is whether to do this in the form of an archtype or natively. I could just give them an arcane reservoir and let them pick arcanie exploits OR rogue talents at the appropriate levels; otherwise, I'd need to find something to trade off (which isn't obvious) for exploits plus reservoir. I think it might be plausible to do the former, as I don't instantly think it would be TOO bad (ability to burn a feat to get extras notwithstanding).

But I'd very mcuh apprciate some thoughts on it.

Here's what the 3.Aotrs Spellthief currently looks like.


Key Abilities: Charisma (spells per day, spell save DC)
Hit Die: D8
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str) and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points per level: 6+Int mod
Starting Gold: 160

Summarised low-effort class table:
BAB 3/4, Good Will save, spell per day/spells known copied straigh from Bard tables.

Class Features
1st Detect Magic, Sneak Attack +D6, Steal Spell (0th, 1st), Trapfinding
2nd Spellgrace +1, Steal Spell Effect
3rd Steal Energy Resistance 10, Steal Item Magic
4th Rogue Talent, Steal Spell (2nd)
5th Sneak Attack +2D6, Steal Spell-Like Ability
6th Steal Spell (3rd)
7th Absorb Spell, Trap Stealing
8th Rogue Talent, Steal Spell (4th)
9th Arcane Sight, Sneak Attack +3D6
10th Steal Spell (5th)
11th Spellgrace +2, Steal Energy Resistance 20
12th Rogue Talent, Steal Spell (6th)
13th Discover Spells, Sneak Attack +4D6
14th Steal Spell (7th)
15th Steal Spell Resistance
16th Rogue Talent, Steal Spell (8th)
17th Sneak Attack +5D6
18th Steal Spell (9th)
19th Steal Energy Resistance 30
20th Absorb Spell (Immediate Casting), Rogue Talent, Spellgrace +3

Class Features

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Spellthieves are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armour but not with shields. Because the somatic components required for spellthief spells are simple, a spellthief can cast spellthief spells while wearing light armour without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, a spellthief wearing medium or heavy armour or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A multiclass spellthief still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes, including those stolen from arcane casters (see the steal spell ability, below) unless he has the Master Spellthief feat.

Spells: Beginning at 1st level, a spellthief gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, which are drawn from a subset of the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A spellthief can learn any Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, and Transmutation spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (and referred to as the spellthief spell list). No other sorcerer/wizard spells are on the spellthief’s class spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, just as a sorcerer can.

To learn or cast a spell, a spellthief must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, Cha 12 for 2nd-level spells, and so on). The DC for a saving throw against a spellthief’s spell is 10 + spell level + spellthief’s Cha modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a spellthief can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. The spell slots are refreshed after taking a Long Rest (e.g. 8 hours of sleep).

The spellthief’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A spellthief begins play knowing four 0th -level spells and two 1st-level spells of the spellthief’s choice. At each new spellthief level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on the Spell Known table. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a spellthief knows is not affected by his Charisma score).

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third spellthief level after that (8th, 11th and so on), a spellthief can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the spellthief “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level spellthief spell the spellthief can cast. A spellthief may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

A spellthief need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Cantrips: Spellthiefs know a number of cantrips, or 0th -level spells as noted on Spells Known. These spells are cast like any other spell, but unless otherwise noted, do not consume any slots when cast and may be used again.

Detect Magic (Sp): A spellthief can use Detect Magic at will. His caster level is equal to his spellthief class level.

Sneak Attack (Ex): If a spelltheif can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The spelltheif’s attack deals extra damage anytime his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether this the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks his target. This extra damage is D6 at 1st level, and increases by D6 every four spelltheif levels thereafter (at 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th etc.). Should the spelltheif score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. The extra damage from Sneak attack is a precision damage effect.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a spelltheif can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

The spelltheif must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A spelltheif cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with Concealment or Total Concealment.

Steal Spell (Su): A spellthief can siphon spell energy away from his target and use it himself. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can steal a spell, or the potential to cast a specific known spell, from his target. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell with a touch as a Standard action. (If you have the Plunder Magic feat, you can activate this and any subsequent Steal class ability with a successful Steal combat manoeuvre instead of a successful Sneak attack, in place of stealing an item.)

The target of a steal spell attack loses one 0th-level or 1st-level spell from memory if she prepares spells ahead of time, or one 0th-level spell or 1st-level spell slot if she is a spontaneous caster. A spontaneous caster also loses the ability to cast the stolen spell for 1 minute. If the target has no spells prepared (or has no remaining spell slots, if she is a spontaneous caster), this ability has no effect. A spellthief can choose which spell to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen spell randomly. If a spellthief tries to steal a spell that isn’t available, the stolen spell (or spell slot) is determined randomly from among those the target has available.

For example, a 1st-level spellthief who uses this ability against a 1st-level sorcerer could choose to steal Magic Missile. Assuming the sorcerer knew that spell, a successful steal spell attack would eliminate one 1st-level spell slot
and temporarily prevent her from casting Magic Missile. If the same spellthief stole Magic Missile from a wizard who had it prepared, the wizard would lose one prepared Magic Missile spell (but wouldn’t lose any other Magic Missile spells she might also have prepared).

After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell himself on a subsequent turn. Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth. A spellthief can cast this spell even if he doesn’t have the minimum ability score normally required to cast a spell of that level. The spellthief must supply the same components (including verbal, somatic, material, and any focus) required for the stolen spell. Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower (effectively, this gives the spellthief one free casting of a known spellthief spell).

A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away.

As a spellthief gains levels, he can choose to steal higher-level spells. At 4th level, he can steal spells of up to 2nd level, and for every two levels gained after 4th, the maximum spell level stolen increases by one (up to a maximum of 9th-level spells at 18th level).

At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (treat 0th-level spells as ½ level for this purpose). For instance, a 4th-level spellthief can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or
one 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or any other combination of 0th-level, 1st-level, and 2nd-level spells totalling four levels. If he steals a spell that would cause him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than his maximum.

A spellthief can’t apply metamagic feats or other effects to the stolen spell unless the specific spell stolen was prepared with such an effect. For example, a spellthief of 6th level or higher could steal a wizard’s empowered Magic Missile, but only if he specifically chose to steal empowered Magic Missile. If he chose to steal an unmodified Magic Missile, he couldn’t steal an empowered Magic
Missile, a silent Magic Missile, or any other metamagic form of the spell. A spellthief couldn’t steal an empowered Magic Missile from a sorcerer, since the sorcerer applies metamagic effects upon casting and thus has no prepared
empowered Magic Missile spell.

A spellthief treats psionic powers as if they were spells of the same level, allowing him to steal, absorb, or discover known psionic powers as normal for spells. When a spellthief steals a power, he also steals the minimum number of power points to manifest that power and may manifest it as if casting a spell on a subsequent turn as normal. A spellthief can’t augment a stolen power, even if he has power points available of his own. A spellthief can steal power points independent of a power only if he has the Psitheif feat, but if he has this feat, the stolen power points are added to his reserve and can be used normally. Stolen power points do not disappear after an hour except for any excess power points over the spelltheif’s normal power point maximum.

Trapfinding (Ex): The spellthief can use the Search and Disable Device skills to detect and disarm magic or psionic traps.

The spellthief can also attempt the presence of a trap with a Perception check (typically spot) by visual inspection. The spellthief must make a subsequent Search check (with a +4 bonus) to locate the trap sufficiently to be able to disarm it. (She may take 10 or 20 on this check).

A spellthief who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

Spellgrace (Su): A spellthief of 2nd level or higher gains a +1 competence bonus on his saves against spells. This bonus improves to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 20th level.

Steal Spell Effect (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a spellthief can siphon an active spell effect from another creature. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can gain the effect of a single spell affecting the target. If the target is willing (or an unattended object), a spellthief can steal a spell effect with a touch as a Standard action.

The spellthief can choose which spell effect to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen spell effect randomly. If a spellthief tries to steal a spell effect that isn’t present, the stolen spell effect is determined randomly from among those currently in effect on the target. A spellthief can’t steal a spell effect if its caster level exceeds his class level + his Charisma modifier.

Upon stealing a spell effect, a spellthief gains the stolen effect (and the original creature loses that effect) for 1 minute per class level (or until the spell’s duration expires, whichever comes first). If the spell effect’s duration hasn’t expired by this time, the spell effect returns to the creature that originally benefited from it.

A spellthief can steal the effect of a spell only if the spell could be cast on him by the original caster. For example, a spellthief couldn’t gain the effect of an Animal Growth spell (unless the spellthief is of the animal type) or the effect of a Shield spell (since that spell’s range is personal). If a spellthief tries to steal the effect of a spell not allowed to him, the effect is still suppressed on the original target of the spell for 1 minute per spellthief class level.

This ability does not work on spell effects that are immune to Dispel Magic (such as Bestow Curse).

Steal Energy Resistance (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a spellthief can siphon off some or all of a target’s resistance to an energy type (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic). A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can temporarily gain resistance 10 to an energy type to which his target is resistant (or immune). If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal energy resistance with a touch as a Standard action.

Simultaneously, the target creature’s resistance to that energy type is reduced by 10 (to a minimum of 0). A creature with immunity to an energy type retains that immunity.

If his target has more than one type of resistance to energy, a spellthief can choose which kind to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen resistance.
randomly from among those possessed by the target. If a spellthief chooses to steal a type of resistance that the target doesn’t possess, the stolen type of resistance is determined randomly from those possessed by the target.

The resistance a spellthief gains from using this ability lasts for 1 minute. If the resistance is derived from a temporary effect (such as a spell), the stolen resistance disappears when the effect expires.

A spellthief can use this ability multiple times, but its effects do not stack unless they apply to different types of energy. For example, throughout a long combat, a spellthief might use this ability to gain resistance to fire and resistance to cold, but he could not use it twice on a creature that is resistant to fire to gain twice as much resistance to fire (nor to reduce the creature’s resistance to fire by twice as much).
At 11th level, a spellthief can steal resistance 20 to an energy type by using this ability, and at 19th level he can steal resistance 30 to an energy type.

Steal Item Magic (Su): At 3rd level, a spellthief can steal a spell from a spell-trigger (e.g. wand) as a Standard action. The spellthief must be in a position to attempt to activate the item to do so, though a check is only required (at the same DC as for activating the item) if the spell is not on the spellthief spell list. This drains a number of charges equal to what the item would have expended when activated. Otherwise, this ability functions as Steal Spell.

Rogue Talents: As a spellthief gains experience, he learns a number of talents that aid him and confound him foes. Starting at 4th level, a spellthief gains one rogue talent. He gains an additional rogue talent for every 4 levels of spellthief thereafter. A spellthief cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Sneak Attack Tricks add effects to a spellthief 's sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack is made. You can only add one Sneak Attack class aptitude to a single attack, even if you have aptitudes from different classes.

Rogue Talents are listed in the Class Features document. Rogue Talents are Class Aptitudes.

Steal Spell-Like Ability (Su): At 5th level and higher, a spellthief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature’s spell-like ability. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing D6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain one use of one of the target’s spell-like abilities. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell-like ability with a
touch as a Standard action.

This spell-like ability can originate from the target’s class, race, template, or any other source, and can be of any level up to a maximum of one-third the spellthief’s class level. A spellthief can select a specific spell-like ability to steal; otherwise, the DM chooses the ability at random. If the ability has a limited number of uses per day, the target must have at least one such use left, or the
spellthief can’t steal the ability. If the target can’t use its ability at the present time (such as a summoned demon’s summon ability), the spellthief can’t steal it.

A spellthief can use a stolen spell-like ability once. For all purposes (caster level, save DC, and so on), treat the spell-like ability as if it were being used by the original possessor of the ability. A spellthief must use the stolen spell-like ability within 1 minute of acquiring it, or it is lost harmlessly. Until the spellthief uses the ability (or until the minute elapses), the target cannot use the stolen
ability.

Psi-like abilities are treated as spell-like abilities for the purpose of a spellthief’s stealing these abilities.

Absorb Spell (Su): Beginning at 7th level, if a spellthief makes a successful save against a spell that targets him, he can attempt to absorb the spell energy for later use. This ability affects only spells that have the spellthief as a target, not effect or area spells. A spellthief can’t absorb a spell of a higher spell level than he could steal with his steal spell ability (see above).

To absorb a spell that targets him, a spellthief must succeed on a level check (D20 + spellthief class level) against a DC of 10 + the spell’s caster level. Failure indicates that the spell has its normal effect. Success means that the
spellthief suffers no effect from the spell and can cast the spell later (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells known) as if he had stolen the spell with his steal spell ability. His normal limit of total spell levels stolen still applies.

At 20th level or higher, a spellthief can choose to use the stolen spell energy as an Immediate action, either to recast the original spell or to cast one of his own spells known using the stolen spell energy. The 20th level ability is considered a capstone.

Trap Stealing (Su): Beginning at 7th level, if a spellthief makes a successful Disable Device to disarm a magical trap which uses a spell or spell-like ability (such as Glyph of Warding or a Fireball trap), he can steal the spell or spell-like ability as if using his Steal Spell ability (provided he is of sufficient level).

Arcane Sight (Sp): Beginning at 9th level, a spellthief can use arcane sight as a Swift action a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier
(minimum 1). His caster level is equal to his spellthief class level.

Discover Spells (Ex): A spellthief of 13th level or higher who steals a spell from a spellcaster with his steal spell ability
automatically learns the names of all other spells prepared or known by the spellcaster that are of the same spell level as the stolen spell. This knowledge allows the spellthief to better choose which spells to steal on subsequent attacks.
For example, a 13th-level spellthief who steals disintegrate from an enemy sorcerer would also discover the names of all other 6th-level spells known by that sorcerer.

Steal Spell Resistance (Su): Beginning at 15th level, a spellthief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal some or all of a creature’s spell resistance. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo 3D6 points of sneak attack damage and instead reduce the target’s spell resistance by 5. The spellthief also gains spell resistance equal to 5 + his class level (up
to a maximum value equal to the original spell resistance of the target). If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal spell resistance with a touch as a standard
action.

The stolen spell resistance benefits the spellthief for a number of rounds equal to the spellthief’s Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round) and then returns to the target creature. If the spell resistance is derived from a temporary effect (such as a spell), the stolen spell resistance disappears when the effect elapses. A spellthief can’t use this ability on the same creature again until the creature’s stolen spell resistance returns.

Would added exploits on top of that (with a slightly more limited set of default uses, I feel?) be too much? Plenty? Could I straight-up just give them exploits-or-rogue-talents plus reservoir as is?

Thoughts, observations would be welcome.


Edit: actually, worth making the effort to post,k since in doing so I realise I had SOMEHOW managed to miss giving them Perception, which is an outstanding oversight on my part innit?