Straight-class single-target spell-casting builds?

[PhoenixPhyre]

As part of a long-running series of simulations, I'm looking at getting some "straight-forward" single-target damage builds.

One thing I don't have is a good "using resources" single-target spell-casting build. I've got cantrip-users (as a baseline), I've got "spam magic missile with all slots" (lol), and that's about it for spell-casters.

Restrictions
All of these are for comparability and ease of simulation, and apply to all builds.
1. If the build only depends on a single ability score for accuracy and damage, it starts with a 16 in that score at level 1.
2. If the build depends on two ability scores, one starts at 16 and the other at 14. For both 1 & 2, progression is definable per build (although my pattern has been "pump primary to 20, then pump secondary if any" unless there are feats).
3. No multiclassing. These are definitionally single-classed builds.
4. Feats need to be called out (taken at level 1 or not) at the levels they're taken at. Especially assumptions around how they work.
5. No magic items.
6. Race/species isn't specifically considered.

Assumption:
This does not consider spillover damage. It's effectively an inifinite-HP training dummy on a timer.

What I need:
1. Big thing: what is your priority list for "actions in a fight". What spells do you cast at which levels, in order. [1].
2. Class (of course)
3. Any other variables (other than target parameters and number of rounds / "day" and/or number of rounds/fight).

[1]Or at bare minimum what are the spells they'd like to be casting each time they'd change. So could be as simple as:

level 1: magic missile.
level 2-8: scorching ray (2-N), magic missile 1 when out of 2nd+ slots
level 9+: disintegrate where possible, then fall back to scorching ray in lower slots, then magic missile 1.

Or whatever.

[Mongobear]

It probably won't top the meters, but I bet it would be a good baselne, Warlock just spamming Eldritch Blast, with Hex. maybe Hexblade Curse, and a sprinkle of optional Feats like Spell Sniper.

Can hyper focus it into other builds later levels, Darkness + Devil's Sight with Elven Accuracy for instance.

EDIT - Also, how "spellcaster" are you requiring builds be? Something like Eldritch Knight and/or Bladesinger abusing Booming Blade + extra weapon swings is still technically a spellcaster, and they can use leveled spells for self-buffs or utility Nova.

[Dork_Forge]

I think Stars Druid falls into this category nicely, a bunch of free castings of Guiding Bolt and the Archer form gives it single target practically on tap. Race doesn't particularly matter, but Goblin would be a good choice for some nova damage.

The progression is simple, build starts at level 2 (level 1 can be Ice Knife I guess?). Upcast GB as higher level slots become available, prioritise using 'free' castings before slots. Wildshapes will always be used for Archer style, Starry form used on first turn of every combat (banking on two combats per short rest more often than not). Use Fury of the Small on whatever is deemed high value at the time e.g. meaty bois, casters, whatever monster is about to curbstomp an ally.

[stoutstien]

I think Stars Druid falls into this category nicely, a bunch of free castings of Guiding Bolt and the Archer form gives it single target practically on tap. Race doesn't particularly matter, but Goblin would be a good choice for some nova damage.

The progression is simple, build starts at level 2 (level 1 can be Ice Knife I guess?). Upcast GB as higher level slots become available, prioritise using 'free' castings before slots. Wildshapes will always be used for Archer style, Starry form used on first turn of every combat (banking on two combats per short rest more often than not). Use Fury of the Small on whatever is deemed high value at the time e.g. meaty bois, casters, whatever monster is about to curbstomp an ally.

Beat me to it. a star druid doing nothing but GB + SF would be solid.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

The idea is incomplete since we don't know what a 1DND Divine Soul would look like but...

Eladrin or Shadar Kai 1DND Sorcerer. Take Elven Accuracy not later than 12, Spell Sniper when you can fit it. (By your rules might not be til level 16 if you want the 20 Cha).

Activate Sorcery Incarnate, Cast your favorite Spell Attacks and get double advantage every time for a lot of Crit Fishing. Or just Double Advantage with high end Guiding Bolts.

Fit in Elemental Adept and Sorcerous Burst now has a 33% chance for the dice to explode and you have double advantage to Crit Fish.

I know you weren't looking for Cantrips but you can "Misty" step about to position and fire away.

At level 17+ your "Cantrip" Is rolling 3d20 to see if you crit, adding +11 if you don't crit to check. Then roll 4d6+Cha, so 4x 33% of a die exploding. You can add up to 5 dice to the roll. So you're looking at Average damage of 19 with a possible upward as high as 18d6+5

Not super awesome but it's an angle.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It probably won't top the meters, but I bet it would be a good baselne, Warlock just spamming Eldritch Blast, with Hex. maybe Hexblade Curse, and a sprinkle of optional Feats like Spell Sniper.

Can hyper focus it into other builds later levels, Darkness + Devil's Sight with Elven Accuracy for instance.

EDIT - Also, how "spellcaster" are you requiring builds be? Something like Eldritch Knight and/or Bladesinger abusing Booming Blade + extra weapon swings is still technically a spellcaster, and they can use leveled spells for self-buffs or utility Nova.

I'd like these to be fairly straightforwardly "spell-casting". I've got a bladesinger who uses cantrips (BB + weapon attack) in a couple different configurations.

I've got a "warlock + hex" (AB toggleable, hex uptime toggleable) already. Don't have hexblade's curse or spell sniper (the latter I'd have to figure out how it works in).


I think Stars Druid falls into this category nicely, a bunch of free castings of Guiding Bolt and the Archer form gives it single target practically on tap. Race doesn't particularly matter, but Goblin would be a good choice for some nova damage.

The progression is simple, build starts at level 2 (level 1 can be Ice Knife I guess?). Upcast GB as higher level slots become available, prioritise using 'free' castings before slots. Wildshapes will always be used for Archer style, Starry form used on first turn of every combat (banking on two combats per short rest more often than not). Use Fury of the Small on whatever is deemed high value at the time e.g. meaty bois, casters, whatever monster is about to curbstomp an ally.

Great idea! I'll see if I can work that in fairly simply. Probably not with FotS, since I don't have any other racial stuff. Number of fights/"rest" and number of rounds/"rest" is configurable, part of the idea is to be able to see how it gets affected when that changes.


The idea is incomplete since we don't know what a 1DND Divine Soul would look like but...

Eladrin or Shadar Kai 1DND Sorcerer. Take Elven Accuracy not later than 12, Spell Sniper when you can fit it. (By your rules might not be til level 16 if you want the 20 Cha).

Activate Sorcery Incarnate, Cast your favorite Spell Attacks and get double advantage every time for a lot of Crit Fishing. Or just Double Advantage with high end Guiding Bolts.

Fit in Elemental Adept and Sorcerous Burst now has a 33% chance for the dice to explode and you have double advantage to Crit Fish.

I know you weren't looking for Cantrips but you can "Misty" step about to position and fire away.

At level 17+ your "Cantrip" Is rolling 3d20 to see if you crit, adding +11 if you don't crit to check. Then roll 4d6+Cha, so 4x 33% of a die exploding. You can add up to 5 dice to the roll. So you're looking at Average damage of 19 with a possible upward as high as 18d6+5

Not super awesome but it's an angle.

Interesting idea, but I don't think I'm going to move to simulating 1D&D classes yet. In part because they're still ill-defined, in part because...well...meh. Can't care about them.

[Mongobear]

I'd like these to be fairly straightforwardly "spell-casting". I've got a bladesinger who uses cantrips (BB + weapon attack) in a couple different configurations.

I've got a "warlock + hex" (AB toggleable, hex uptime toggleable) already. Don't have hexblade's curse or spell sniper (the latter I'd have to figure out how it works in).


Spell Sniper is mainly un-needed, but it is useful for ignoring cover/increasing Range, it doesnt necessarily add to damage directly, more a possible accuracy bump or allowing for mow attacks at long range.

Have you simmed a "Mailman Sorcerer" ? Basically heavy focus on Quicken + Twinned cantrips, Quickened Scorching Ray + Twinned Cantrips, etc. It requires a lot of micro'ing for Sorcerp points, and knowing which spell slots are the least important, so you can use them for extra SP. It also can be made more useful with Spell Sniper/Elemental Adept to make their damage/accuracy more consistent.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Spell Sniper is mainly un-needed, but it is useful for ignoring cover/increasing Range, it doesnt necessarily add to damage directly, more a possible accuracy bump or allowing for mow attacks at long range.

Have you simmed a "Mailman Sorcerer" ? Basically heavy focus on Quicken + Twinned cantrips, Quickened Scorching Ray + Twinned Cantrips, etc. It requires a lot of micro'ing for Sorcerp points, and knowing which spell slots are the least important, so you can use them for extra SP. It also can be made more useful with Spell Sniper/Elemental Adept to make their damage/accuracy more consistent.

Can you work up a basic plan for the Mailman? Basically "at each level, what spell slots should I burn for SP?"

I've not done anything with quicken/twin really.

[Mongobear]

Can you work up a basic plan for the Mailman? Basically "at each level, what spell slots should I burn for SP?"

I've not done anything with quicken/twin really.

I've never actually played one, it's all theory as far as I know.

I think the only spell slots they need for their own spells are 1st and 2nd, for Chromatic Orb and Scorching Ray, while they convert all of the rest until Disintegrate to SP to burn on Metamagic and/or create more slots for Chromatic Orb/Scorching Ray. Basic idea is that they get more mileage out of their SP using it for Quickening/Twinning a whole extra copy of a spell, vs upcasting it.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I believe Evokers can really hold their own even before level 10 with Empowered Evocation Magic Missile.

At level 3, although not exclusive to Evokers, you can combine Dragon’s Breath with your familiar. This is quite impressive to increase DPR at lower levels. If you are able to keep your familiar alive for at least 2 rounds, I believe it already paid off the slot invested.

At level 5, Evokers are able to implement Sculpt Spells in Melf’s Minute Meteor and this is a good way to improve single-target damage. The same can be applied for Sickening Radiance at level 7.

Most of these spells are naturally built for AoE, but Evokers have this unique capacity to deploy it to make the most against single-target.

[Kane0]

Bugbear dragon sorcerer. First turn quicken scorching ray + twinned firebolt.

Otherwise goblin star druid sounds both funny and effective.

[Rukelnikov]

I think Stars Druid falls into this category nicely, a bunch of free castings of Guiding Bolt and the Archer form gives it single target practically on tap. Race doesn't particularly matter, but Goblin would be a good choice for some nova damage.

The progression is simple, build starts at level 2 (level 1 can be Ice Knife I guess?). Upcast GB as higher level slots become available, prioritise using 'free' castings before slots. Wildshapes will always be used for Archer style, Starry form used on first turn of every combat (banking on two combats per short rest more often than not). Use Fury of the Small on whatever is deemed high value at the time e.g. meaty bois, casters, whatever monster is about to curbstomp an ally.


Beat me to it. a star druid doing nothing but GB + SF would be solid.

I tried to optimize Guiding Bolt a couple times, the main problem is that it gets surpassed by cantrips and regular attacks incredibly fast. 4d6 is a good number at level 1, but by level 5 its not that much, 2 swings of a greatsword is doing 4d6 baseline, before extras, Ago Blast is already dealing more damage and is resource free.

Assuming a character built specifically to have some of the best guiding bolts possible, its barely beats cantrip damage while using a ton of resources to do so.

Ago Blast lvl 17 is 4d10+20 = 42

42 / 7 (2d6) = 6, so 17th lvl Ago Blast is comparable to dealing 12d6 damage, a 9th level slot guiding bolt deals 12d6.

Quandrix Student
Dragon Sorc 6 (Fire)/Celestial Lock 6/Wildfire Druid 6/Scribes 2

Could be casting 1st lvl Guiding Bolt as a fire spell, thus dealing 4d6[+1d8+10] = 28.5, if we twinned it, that'd be 8d6[+1d8+10] = 42.5 barely above Ago Blast, and divided between 2 targets.

Upcasting Guiding bolt to level 6 thats 9d6[+1d8+10] = 46, barely above Ago Blast, if we twinned it, that'd be 18d6[+1d8+10] = 77.5, about double Ago Blast, but divided between 2 targets.

The best single target spellcasting damage dealer, outside of the exceptional MM interaction with +damage to spells, is likely a Sorlock that upcasts Spirit Shroud as much as it can, and then spams Ago Blast + Quickened (Ago Blast or Scorching Ray) depending on slots available.

[Dork_Forge]

I tried to optimize Guiding Bolt a couple times, the main problem is that it gets surpassed by cantrips and regular attacks incredibly fast. 4d6 is a good number at level 1, but by level 5 its not that much, 2 swings of a greatsword is doing 4d6 baseline, before extras, Ago Blast is already dealing more damage and is resource free.

Assuming a character built specifically to have some of the best guiding bolts possible, its barely beats cantrip damage while using a ton of resources to do so.

Ago Blast lvl 17 is 4d10+20 = 42

42 / 7 (2d6) = 6, so 17th lvl Ago Blast is comparable to dealing 12d6 damage, a 9th level slot guiding bolt deals 12d6.

Quandrix Student
Dragon Sorc 6 (Fire)/Celestial Lock 6/Wildfire Druid 6/Scribes 2

Could be casting 1st lvl Guiding Bolt as a fire spell, thus dealing 4d6[+1d8+10] = 28.5, if we twinned it, that'd be 8d6[+1d8+10] = 42.5 barely above Ago Blast, and divided between 2 targets.

Upcasting Guiding bolt to level 6 thats 9d6[+1d8+10] = 46, barely above Ago Blast, if we twinned it, that'd be 18d6[+1d8+10] = 77.5, about double Ago Blast, but divided between 2 targets.

The best single target spellcasting damage dealer, outside of the exceptional MM interaction with +damage to spells, is likely a Sorlock that upcasts Spirit Shroud as much as it can, and then spams Ago Blast + Quickened Ago Blast or Scorching Ray, depending on slots available.

I'm not advocating for it being the most damaging thing overall, but the restrictions include no multiclassing and is meant to be a simple representation of a single target blaster.

Note that because this is about using resources as a caster, comparisons to martials aren't applicable.

So, since you presented numbers at 20th I'll do the same, the Goblin Stars Druid is doing a nova round of:

12d6+2d8+5+20 = 76 against a single target

If accuracy is a factor in this, then it's very relevant that Guiding Bolt's advantage can feed either Starry Arrow or itself, and depending on the roll for the day Cosmic Omen may be able to add a d6 to nova/initial attack to get the advantage chain rolling.

And since the prof bonus free castings pair well with a base of 1st level spells, 4d6+potential advantage+Starry Arrows basically become the build's cantrips.

[Rukelnikov]

I'm not advocating for it being the most damaging thing overall, but the restrictions include no multiclassing and is meant to be a simple representation of a single target blaster.

Note that because this is about using resources as a caster, comparisons to martials aren't applicable.

So, since you presented numbers at 20th I'll do the same, the Goblin Stars Druid is doing a nova round of:

12d6+2d8+5+20 = 76 against a single target

If accuracy is a factor in this, then it's very relevant that Guiding Bolt's advantage can feed either Starry Arrow or itself, and depending on the roll for the day Cosmic Omen may be able to add a d6 to nova/initial attack to get the advantage chain rolling.

Yeah, but my numbers were compared against a baseline 17th level ago blast, the most basic improvements on it, like quickening a second one or using spirit shroud send Ago Blast much, much higher.


And since the prof bonus free castings pair well with a base of 1st level spells, 4d6+potential advantage+Starry Arrows basically become the build's cantrips.

I know! I drooled the first time I read Stars Druid, but haven't ever been able to make a build where Guilding Bolt + Starry Arrows looked better than the basic Sorlock schtick past T1 :(

[Kane0]

https://youtu.be/VqKxD-T0PP8

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah, but my numbers were compared against a baseline 17th level ago blast, the most basic improvements on it, like quickening a second one or using spirit shroud send Ago Blast much, much higher.

I mean... I'm not really sure what to say about this? The goal of the thread isn't highest damage single target build...

Its to get a sample of simple, single target damage casters that specifically are using their resources to achieve that damage. So a Warlock spamming eldritch blast seems more like it would belong in the cantrip category. From experience a Stars Druid does good, consistent damage but they aren't nutty outside of heavy tweaks.



I know! I drooled the first time I read Stars Druid, but haven't ever been able to make a build where Guilding Bolt + Starry Arrows looked better than the basic Sorlock schtick past T1 :(

I'm not sure why you need to clear that baseline to have fun with the character, but if i was inclined to do something that incorporates it I'd probably just do a simple:

Stars 2/Celestial Warlock X

-6th level Warlock is better than a free upcast level
- Warlock slot scaling and regen means you will have regular access to a chunky GB
- Prof scaling on the free castings and 3 Druid slots means your GB spam is actually pretty viable
- You still have the potential to bust out some really serious healing should the need arise.

Top down 20th level builds are fun theory craft, but triple classing with at least two 6th level classes would be a pain to progress through, I think this ^ does the concept justice whilst still being overall competent and smooth progressing.

[Waazraath]

Since it does not seem to be excluded that part of the damage comes from melee:

Tempest cleric 20;
Race: something that gives booming blade (either elf, half-elf or human/custom with feat)
stats: start with wis 16 / str 14, just raise str, then wis alternately at all ASI's.

Single-target damage comes from:
- melee attack (1d8+2 at the start), increasing @ lvl5 to 2d8, lvl 8 3d8, lvl 11 4d8, lvl 14 5d8, lvl 17 6d8 (plus ability damage increases, plus optional magic weapon damage, plus optional rider effect from Booming Blade up to 4d8 extra @ lvl 17- the class has options to push a character away with a reaction so it should trigger some times at least);
- reaction damage (2d8 reaction, max 5 times/day @lvl 16, when hit);
- damge increase: maximize lighting or thunder damage (5d8 thunder damage from melee becoming 40 for instance);
- spells: good old Spiritual Weapon maximally upcast.

So for instance, level 9:
- spiritual weapon 3d8+4;
- melee attack 3d8+3 (plus optional);
- reaction (optional 2d8)

In a pretty optimal situation, assuming all hits / failed save, no magic weapon and average damage, that's 17.5 (SW) + 23.5 (maxed BB melee strike) + 9 (destructive wrath reaction with thunderbolt strike) + 13.5 (booming blade when enemy moved into melee again) = 63.5 single target damage.

edit:


What I need:
1. Big thing: what is your priority list for "actions in a fight". What spells do you cast at which levels, in order. [1].
2. Class (of course)
3. Any other variables (other than target parameters and number of rounds / "day" and/or number of rounds/fight).

I think 2 and 3 are included and 1 is implicit, but to be sure: priority for actions in fight is: move, melee attack, bonus action spiritual weapon, attack with spiritual weapon, use reaction when hit, repeat.

[Eldariel]

Simple Arcana Cleric using BB + Telekinetic/Spiritual Weapon + (upcast) Spirit Guardians is surprisingly decent at level 8+.

Of course, the crown goes to anyone casting Conjure Animals. Or if not that, Animate Objects/Conjure Woodland Beings, Animate Dead/Tiny Servant/Danse Macabre (+ Magic Stone), or even Summon Greater Demon/Tasha's Summons, in about that order.

One classic in addition to the Nuclear Wizard is (upcast) Spirit Shroud + Eldritch Blast/Scorching Ray, the 10' menace.

Necromancer can get completely asinine numbers via Undead Thralls + Magic Stone (from Artificer dip or Artifice Initiate).

[stoutstien]

The best thing about the Stars druid Disco laser is it's practically free. You don't even worry about having the spell prepared.

The only option I can think of that comes close to this type of TurnKey potential is a death cleric thanks to their channel divinity.

[WaroftheCrans]

Presuming this is about the RED calculator in your signature, I was looking at the bladesinger, and noticed a couple irregularities.
Pretty huge irregularities actually. This image is in raw damage btw
https://imgur.com/a/lRVlBTG

The int bladesinger is higher damage than the dex bladesinger at low levels, despite there being 0 reason it should be. It goes down in damage, which should never happen with the to hit setting. At level 6, it should be experiencing a major spike, but instead it drops drastically. The 0% proc int bladesinger also has the same dps as the 100% proc bladesinger for the initial levels. (Only differs at 6, where it plunges more sharply.) I'm presuming you're using booming blade, since its proc is single target and marginally more damage until 20 int.

For the bladesinger, I'd recommend using Haste first action, which evens out at lvl 5 in any combat going past 3 rounds, and evens out at lvl 6 in 2 rounds, as at lvl 6 you can sub the haste attack for a cantrip.

Anyway, based on what you're missing, an only magic missile evocation wizard should certainly be in there for spellcaster.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Presuming this is about the RED calculator in your signature, I was looking at the bladesinger, and noticed a couple irregularities.
Pretty huge irregularities actually. This image is in raw damage btw
https://imgur.com/a/lRVlBTG

The int bladesinger is higher damage than the dex bladesinger at low levels, despite there being 0 reason it should be. It goes down in damage, which should never happen with the to hit setting. At level 6, it should be experiencing a major spike, but instead it drops drastically. The 0% proc int bladesinger also has the same dps as the 100% proc bladesinger for the initial levels. (Only differs at 6, where it plunges more sharply.) I'm presuming you're using booming blade, since its proc is single target and marginally more damage until 20 int.

For the bladesinger, I'd recommend using Haste first action, which evens out at lvl 5 in any combat going past 3 rounds, and evens out at lvl 6 in 2 rounds, as at lvl 6 you can sub the haste attack for a cantrip.

Anyway, based on what you're missing, an only magic missile evocation wizard should certainly be in there for spellcaster.

That particular version is outdated and, as you say, has issues. This would be for my upcoming version.


https://i.ibb.co/7Sw3VFk/Screen-Shot-2023-05-10-at-12-06-08-PM.png (https://ibb.co/dfdN6ym)

I won't guarantee this one's right, but it's more likely to be more correct. And doesn't show the (wrong, I agree) dip. Looks like it wasn't respecting the raw vs red mode under some circumstances so what you were seeing was anomalous in its entirety.

V1 isn't fully developed (it seems it doesn't handle int vs dex properly at least, treating them the same and the deployed version is, it turns out, quite stale compared to my develop version), but it moves a lot more towards configurability instead of fixed presets. Plus a much prettier UI.

v1 link (https://admiralbenbo.org/red-calculator/)


And I particularly don't suggest using the 90% hit mode...it's really not been checked out much at all because I'd basically decided to abandon that particular mode.

My upcoming (not deployed yet) version does have a MM-only wizard. Well...really a couple. Including toggling which reading of MM you're using ((1d4+1)*N or Nd4+N) and whether you've got the evocation feature.