Magic Item Creation (Continuous Item Cost Question)

[incog64]

The rules and costs for continuous effect magic items are below.

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

But for a spell like DIVINE INSIGHT (Spell Compendium, p. 70) where the duration is an hour per level what do yall think the modifier should be?

Thanks.

[Bohandas]

I think it's implied that for durations between tens of minutes and days the cost is unmodified

[incog64]

I think it's implied that for durations between tens of minutes and days the cost is unmodified

Yeah, probably somewhere between 1.25x's and 1.0x's is what I am guessing. I always try to get multiple perspectives.

Thanks.

[Silva Stormrage]

I would be very hesitant to allowing a spell like Divine Insight to function continuously for the same price as say endure elements or similar hour long buffs. Those crafting rules are guidelines and Divine Insight only functions ONCE during those hours. If you wanted a continuous item of divine insight you should be using the guidelines for boosting skill bonuses rather than the spell rules (With a markup for being able to swap the skill and give a non enchantment bonus).

An item that gives a simply +5 insight bonus to a skill which could be changed as a standard action to give the bonus to different skill would probably hover at 10-15k IMO.

I might be misinterpreting what you are asking but this sounds similar to people trying to get a continuous true strike item for 2k...

[Ramza00]

Assuming you think Divine Insight is priced correctly :smalltongue:

Divine Insight should really be an external wand / command word pricing (so the 1800 gp one right above the continuous item one)

Likewise while the 1800/5 and if the 5 uses per day vs 10 uses vs 2400 vs 14400 uses per day really does not matter for most spells… yet something like Divine Insight shows how the guidelines are guidelines and not fast rules.

For example saying you can benefit from one divine insight every 10 mins even if you can use it unlimited times per day makes all kinds of sense from a DM guidelines with such an item. Or saying the item exists but the recharge period is 1 min times how many times you used it earlier in the day. Or some other similar formula.

Likewise the DM may say oh the eternal wand is now keyed for this skill for X hours in the future.

[AvatarVecna]

The rules and costs for continuous effect magic items are below.

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

But for a spell like DIVINE INSIGHT (Spell Compendium, p. 70) where the duration is an hour per level what do yall think the modifier should be?

Thanks.


If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

RAW: The item only gets a special price multiplier if it's one of the durations listed. The durations listed are "measured in rounds", "1 minute/level", "10 minutes/level", and "24 hours". "1 hour/level" is none of thse, so it does not get a special duration multiplier. x1 multiplier if you feel an absolute need to define it in your calculations.

RAI: The RAW can be silly. If you have a duration of days/lvl, it costs more than a similar-leveled spell with a "24 hour" duration? If you have a "1 minute" duration spell, it costs less than one that gives 1 minute/lvl? If a duration isn't listed explicitly in there, use common sense to figure out where it goes. "1 day/lvl" can get a x0.5 just like 24 hours. "1 minute" can get a x4 just like rounds/lvl. And 1 hour/lvl...well that's longer than 10 min/lvl and (usually) less than 24 hours, so split the difference between 1.5 and 0.5 and say it's x1.




Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.

The text being cited for the duration stuff is an optional step 2 in determining a magic's item's worth. What you're supposed to do is find similar effects, either in existing items or existing formulas, and use those to price out the effect your item has on somebody. If there's not an easy way to do that, the table of Estimates is there to assist you in getting a rough idea of what might be reasonable. Ultimately, it's up to the DM what a custom item costs. To use some examples:

"Chasing Perfection" is a lvl 6 spell that gives +4 enhancement to all attributes for 1 minute/lvl. The price estimate table would indicate this effect is worth 269000 gp, and is thus an epic item you can't make yet. But step 1 of determining the price would have it compared with the Belt Of Magnificence, an existing item that gives +2/+4/+6 enhancement to all attributes. Belt Of Magnificence +4 costs 100000, a much more reasonable price for that effect, with maybe a x1.5 for being a non-belt slot if you do that. So if you wanted to make Boots Of Chasing Perfection, 150k is the price one might expect to get from the DM. This is lower because Chasing Perfection is honestly a pretty bad lvl 6 spell. It's six lvl 2 spells stapled together.

On the flip side, this can also make items more expensive than step 2 would indicate because some spells are giving a lot more than usual, especially if they're giving big numbers. "That Art Thou" is a lvl 3 spell that gives +20 (untyped) to Listen/Search/Spot and effectively makes you immune to flat-footed and flanking. Using the pricing guidelines on the spell alone would give it a 120000 gp price tag, but this is far too low. +20 (competence) to one skill would be 40000. Even if we pretend the spell gives competence bonuses, you're combining three of them into one item, which comes with a 50% tax on the extra abilities. That's 160k before we even address that they're untyped bonuses instead of competence; alternate bonuses to AC/saves cost at least double the usual formula, so we're talking at least 320k and we've still not even touched on the immunities the spell gives you.

The spell pricing guidelines are for when other methods of pricing the effect fail because what the spell does is just too weird to have anything to compare to. "Choose Destiny" is a 9th lvl spell that, for 1 round/lvl, lets you roll twice and take the better roll on any attack roll, saving throw, ability check, or skill check. This tends to have have three important effects: first, it's roughly +3.8 on all the aforementioned d20 rolls; secondly, the odds of getting a critical failure are now drastically reduced; third, the odds of getting a critical threat/success are generally increased across the board (but not more than doubled). +8 to attributes would cover most of that first one, except that would also give +4 or more to damage rolls and increase your carrying capacity (neither of which the spell does). The third could be roughly approximated by having Improved Critical for every attack in the game (weapon, spell, you name it), but that would take at least a thousand iterations of the feat built into an item, which is plainly too expensive for what you're actually getting out of it. The second effect can only really be compared to other reroll mechanics. The Pride Domain gives you the ability to reroll nat 1s on saves, and there's an item in MIC that gives you a domain power for a short period, maybe adjust the price of that to be permanent? Except the spell would apply to attack rolls, while the domain doesn't. Really, the only way to price Choose Destiny that isn't just making up wild nonsense is to use the spell pricing guidelines, in which case it costs approximately 1224000 gp. That feels excessive to me, but not so excessive I'd never consider getting it.

[Vaern]

The rules and costs for continuous effect magic items are below.

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

But for a spell like DIVINE INSIGHT (Spell Compendium, p. 70) where the duration is an hour per level what do yall think the modifier should be?

Thanks.

If the duration is not listed in the footnote then it is unaffected. I'd assume that a duration measured in hours is meant to be the default.

Since it does come with "or until discharged" tied to its duration, I'd consider pricing it differently. A player using such an item can be reasonably expected to activate the ring every time he makes a skill check, and in normal circumstances this would terminate the spell and require a new casting. The spell may have a duration of up to 1 hour/level, but it could be argued in this case that the item can have a functional duration of mere rounds rather than hours - or even less since some skills don't even require an action to use.
It's important to note that the guidelines call themselves out as being just a starting point for pricing your item, and it's recommended that you compare your item to existing items to determine whether their power level is consistent with other items within the same price range. There are items that can grant a bonus to any skill check, but there is nothing that I know of in published material that can give a bonus to every skill check. There is nothing of relatively equal power to compare it to, so it should probably not be allowed as a continuous effect except as an artifact.

Here are some possible solutions:

Make it a command word item. The player must at least spend a standard action to activate the item before it can be used. This item is still very cheesy, but at least it's toned down a bit by requiring some effort to be put into it. Have fun blindsiding a player with "You don't have that bonus, you forgot to activate the item when you left camp this morning" when they try to avoid an attack of opportunity by tumbling past an enemy.

Simply make it a 1/day item. The effect is more in line with the spell being used to create the item, mitigating the issue of "until discharged" giving it a wildly variable duration. On a continuous use item, the user still has the benefit of not having to declare that they activate the item first thing in the morning.

Price it as a skill bonus rather than a spell effect so that the price directly correlates to the bonus granted.
Look to Third Eye Improvisation for inspiration: The cost of the skill bonus (5^2 x 100 = 2500) appears to be doubled (to 5000), since it can be applied to any one of several skills rather than a single predetermined skill; then, the price is slashed as a 1/day item (1000). There are some extra fiddly bits in there - a bit of restriction on skills it can be used on, an added benefit of being considered trained in an untrained skill - but I'd be happy to hand-wave these extra pros and cons away as simply balancing each other out to 0 cost and just call this breakdown of its pricing "good enough for our current needs."
Overall, based on the effect that an item based on Divine Insight would have, I think pricing it in the way detailed above is fair for a comparable effect.
Note that there are items that grant insight bonuses to skill checks, and these don't appear to be priced differently from competence bonuses (Crystal Mask of Discernment grants +10 insight to sense motive for 10k, which matches the formula and existing items for competence bonuses).


RAI: The RAW can be silly. If you have a duration of days/lvl, it costs more than a similar-leveled spell with a "24 hour" duration? If you have a "1 minute" duration spell, it costs less than one that gives 1 minute/lvl? If a duration isn't listed explicitly in there, use common sense to figure out where it goes. "1 day/lvl" can get a x0.5 just like 24 hours. "1 minute" can get a x4 just like rounds/lvl. And 1 hour/lvl...well that's longer than 10 min/lvl and (usually) less than 24 hours, so split the difference between 1.5 and 0.5 and say it's x1.

I'd say a 1/day spell would fall under the heading of "24 hours or greater" and price it thusly, no problem.
1 minute spells do technically have a duration that can be measured in rounds (10 rounds), but trying to use this logic to shoehorn it into the RAW category of x4 would technically also put every spell into that bracket.

[Biggus]

RAI: The RAW can be silly. If you have a duration of days/lvl, it costs more than a similar-leveled spell with a "24 hour" duration? If you have a "1 minute" duration spell, it costs less than one that gives 1 minute/lvl?

The first example isn't right, the wording is "If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half". The second one is correct by strict RAW though (and we all now how much sense strict RAW makes...).

@OP: agreed with the others that it should be x1 multiplier for 1hr/level.

Edit: Bah, ninja'd

[incog64]

All, thanks for the perspectives. I appreciate it.