Iron Golem vs Red Dragon breath weapon

[redking]

Iron Golem. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm)


A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, an iron golem hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. An iron golem gets no saving throw against fire effects.

Does a red dragon's fiery breath weapon constitute a "magical attack"? Does the iron golem heal or take damage as normal?

[Gruftzwerg]

Iron Golem. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm)



Does a red dragon's fiery breath weapon constitute a "magical attack"? Does the iron golem heal or take damage as normal?

The Breath Weapon is a Supernatural Ability

Breath Weapon (Su)

A red dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of fire.




Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic

and those are always magical.

[Menzath]

For the first sentence in the description of Supernatural abilities in the MM pg.315 which is what a dragons breath attack is categorized under.


Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

And the iron golems full immunity to magic ability from MM pg.137


Immunity to Magic (Ex): An iron golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals electricity damage slows an iron golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, an iron golem hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. An iron golem gets no saving throw against fire effects.

An iron golem is affected normally by rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell.


Emphasis mine. Since the breath weapon is magical, and falls under being an attack and a certain effect (magical fire damage) I do believe it falls under the criteria of the golems ability.

So yes I think it would be absorbed by the iron golem.

[redking]

Thanks for the answers. I am thinking awakened iron golem red dragon hunters. Do these guys stand a chance? Assume 4 to 6 awakened iron golem dragon hunters with appropriate HD to the dragon they are hunting.

[Gruftzwerg]

Thanks for the answers. I am thinking awakened iron golem red dragon hunters. Do these guys stand a chance? Assume 4 to 6 awakened iron golem dragon hunters with appropriate HD to the dragon they are hunting.

Imho even with moderate or low optimization the party of iron golems should win the DPS race here (to which the scenario would boil down imho).

Edit:
And with enough optimization, even a single Iron Golem could be able to. It really boils down to how much you optimize each side. (I mean, we are talking about 3.5 here..^^)

edit 2:
Regarding optimization. Maybe consider the half-golem template (with failed will saves to become a full construct). It is much more optimizer friendly, since you can use a race with no RHD and progression by taking class levels. (I assume this is about NPCs and not PCs..?!?)

[GeoffWatson]

They'd need something to stop the dragon from flying away. The golems are much slower.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yeah‚ the dragon can litterally do nothing to the Iron golems. It can't breathe‚ can't cast spells on them‚ and can't use Frightful Presence. At 19 RHD‚ it's a Young Adult‚ and has all its natural attacks. Unfortunately‚ most of these have a hard time bypassing the golem's DR. Still‚ with Power Attack‚ we can expect 10 to 20 damages per attack (let's say 8 considering the lower chance to hit). So a total of about 48 per full attack. That's not good. Still‚ if the dragon lives on a cliff‚ Flyby Attack+Snatch+ free action drop the golem could mean that the golems lose more HP than they can deal‚ and they really can't do anything to prevent the dragon from just flying away if it goes down to half HP or take too much Con damage‚ and ask their father to obliterate the golems‚ their creator‚ his family and half his kingdom.

[Inevitability]

Aside from the dragon just flying away, there's a number of traps that a legion of kobolds could plausibly rig up and that would threaten the golems. Pit traps are an option (for all their DR, golems have pretty low HD, and 20d6 damage will dent them), as are various acid-based traps (the 10d6 from total immersion should kill one in a couple rounds). Giving the golems an item of flight would help with this, but items are dispellable even if the golems themselves are not.

Also, a dragon with sufficient intel could expend a low amount of resources on obtaining a rust monster pet, which would be a hilariously effective countermeasure.

[redking]

Excellent commentary. So the situation is: the red dragon could fly away. The red dragon must contend with the iron golem's DR. Allies of the red dragon, such as followers, could further vex with iron golems with traps and the like.

What could the iron golems, which are awakened, do to prepare for the fight against the red dragon? I can see them attempting to self-heal with fire producing magics, but I am not sure if they could manage to activate a magical item to do so. We need to counteract or match the flying, the allies of the red dragon, the traps, etc.

[loky1109]

Aside from the dragon just flying away, there's a number of traps that a legion of kobolds could plausibly rig up and that would threaten the golems. Pit traps are an option (for all their DR, golems have pretty low HD, and 20d6 damage will dent them), as are various acid-based traps (the 10d6 from total immersion should kill one in a couple rounds). Giving the golems an item of flight would help with this, but items are dispellable even if the golems themselves are not.

Also, a dragon with sufficient intel could expend a low amount of resources on obtaining a rust monster pet, which would be a hilariously effective countermeasure.
Are there something that prevents me from making 20d6 pit trap at the bottom of the 20d6 pit trap?

[Inevitability]

Are there something that prevents me from making 20d6 pit trap at the bottom of the 20d6 pit trap?

Space issues? :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, there's an argument to be made that they'd get a second reflex save for the second pit, but the idea itself is sound.


A secondary trap, mechanical or magical, at the bottom of a pit can be particularly deadly. Activated by a falling victim, the secondary trap attacks the already injured character when she’s least ready for it.

[Fero]

The dragon's spells could make a big difference in a fight against the golems. For example, lightning bolts will slow the golems and Breath Weapon Substitution can bypass the fire healing. Also, the flight remains a major issue. Is it possible to give the golems a good ranged attack?

[Darg]

The dragon's spells could make a big difference in a fight against the golems. For example, lightning bolts will slow the golems and Breath Weapon Substitution can bypass the fire healing. Also, the flight remains a major issue. Is it possible to give the golems a good ranged attack?

One could use the A&EG size increasing rules. Each size increase increases range increment by 25%.

[Batcathat]

It seems like the easiest option would be for the golems to ambush the dragon somewhere there's no room to fly (or at least not very far). I'm not sure if it's been mentioned where it lives, but assuming it has some sort of indoor lair that seems like a good choice (of course, if there's another option that the dragon haven't had a chance to prepare, that'd be better), especially if they can seal off the exit in some way.

[redking]

The dragon's spells could make a big difference in a fight against the golems. For example, lightning bolts will slow the golems and Breath Weapon Substitution can bypass the fire healing.

The iron golems should remain immune to the breath weapon, although I suppose that substitution to lighting could slow them down.


Also, the flight remains a major issue. Is it possible to give the golems a good ranged attack?

Harpoons???


It seems like the easiest option would be for the golems to ambush the dragon somewhere there's no room to fly (or at least not very far). I'm not sure if it's been mentioned where it lives, but assuming it has some sort of indoor lair that seems like a good choice (of course, if there's another option that the dragon haven't had a chance to prepare, that'd be better), especially if they can seal off the exit in some way.

I'll assume that the red dragon's lair is well defended. I wonder if there is a way to get those iron golems set on magical fire so that they've got constant healing.

ADDENDUM: Can fire elementals (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fire_Elemental) damage iron golems with the Burn (Ex) ability?


Burn (Ex): A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental‘s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see the table below). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution- based.

Here is the relevant entry for the iron golem:


A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, an iron golem hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. An iron golem gets no saving throw against fire effects.

[Nesto]

On the golem’s interaction with fire elementals it feels like it shouldn’t work but I can’t see any reason why it wouldn’t since it’s not like they have fire immunity. Though that would mean you can burn an iron golem with say a torch or alchemist’s fire since I don’t believe alchemical items are considered magical. I’d probably house rule that they’re immune since I don’t see how you’re setting a giant chunk of iron on fire but RAW it looks like non-magical fire works.

[Chronos]

A fire elemental's fire damage is (ex), and hence nonmagical, and hence it would deal damage to golems normally.

And don't forget that spellcasters have a lot of indirect options: Using Telekinesis to throw big rocks, using Disintegrate to make a pit right under something, buffing themselves or other warrior-types to better fight the golems, etc. For instance, there's probably a spell out there somewhere to make one's attacks count as adamantine.

[Fero]

The iron golems should remain immune to the breath weapon, although I suppose that substitution to lighting could slow them down.
golem:

I am not sure this is correct (I am also not sure it is wrong). The short description of Magic Immunity says it extends to most supernatural abilities. However, the in depth explanation on the golem entry limits the immunities to spells and spell likes that allow SR. Dragon breath weapons are not spells or spell likes and (I think) don't allow SR. As such, Magic Immunity would not protect from the breath weapon (unless it is fire or lightning as described in the golem's entry).

[redking]

I am not sure this is correct (I am also not sure it is wrong). The short description of Magic Immunity says it extends to most supernatural abilities. However, the in depth explanation on the golem entry limits the immunities to spells and spell likes that allow SR. Dragon breath weapons are not spells or spell likes and (I think) don't allow SR. As such, Magic Immunity would not protect from the breath weapon (unless it is fire or lightning as described in the golem's entry).

You appear to be correct. Blame my sloppiness on lack of sleep. Acid breath substitution could be very nasty.

[Gruftzwerg]

You appear to be correct. Blame my sloppiness on lack of sleep. Acid breath substitution could be very nasty.

As said, it really just depends on which side you optimize more.

But in a typical scenario the "party" has individual character builds, while the monster has fixed stats by default (and Advancement is sole an option and not the default state).
As such, the party should normally be the side which is more optimized. ( I mean, most DM wouldn't bring up an optimized encounter against a non optimized group)

[Fero]

If you really want to wreck a dragon, I recomend: (1) Write a strongly worded letter to the dragon; (2) include a Sepia Snake Sigil on the letter (using whatever DC boosters are avaliable); (3) use Nondetection or a similar spell to better hide the magic trap; and (4) teleport object or hire a messenger to deliver the letter.

[Chronos]

MOST monsters might not be optimized, but a dragon should never be a "most monsters". Dragons should be special.

[Crake]

MOST monsters might not be optimized, but a dragon should never be a "most monsters". Dragons should be special.

Dragons actually aren't given any "default" feats/skills/spells known for this exact reason, each dragon is intended to be hand crafted by the DM. I can't remember where I read that, so not sure if anyone with better memory can provide a citation on that, but im pretty sure it's in one of the books and not a web article.

[redking]

The MM dragons could have their MM feats replaced by some of those in the Draconomicon, which could result in some very scary dragons.