What spell level should 'Find Reference' like spell be??

[animewatcha]

We have locate creature, locate object spells. Campaigns make mention of research inside of massive libraries for campaign setting and what not. So if we were to have a 'Find Reference' like spell, what spell level should it be?
The effect being you cast it like a 'Find Vecna' and within say 1000 feet (or whatever the range is), you are 'pinged' of sorts (similar to locate creature or locate object) of all the books that make mention of the exact word of 'Vecna'. Kinda like a computer search, but a 'Locate' search.

[LudicSavant]

Well, Locate Object (2nd level) can already find "objects of a general type." You could probably already use it for 'books that mention Vecna.'

Therefore if you wanted to homebrew a new spell it should likely be no higher than 2nd.

[animewatcha]

Re-read description of Locate Object. Evidently that targets a single one while my question is more of a 'all within certain area'.

[LudicSavant]

Re-read description of Locate Object. Evidently that targets a single one while my question is more of a 'all within certain area'.

I've read it. Check the second usage, after the word "Alternatively."

It can find the nearest book that mentions Vecna, over a duration, which you can then use to search a whole library for multiple references. It points to a single book at a time, but moving will allow you to find multiple references over the duration.

What you want is basically a more use limited but slightly more convenient version of that tactic, likely no more than 2nd level.

[Chronos]

My general feel is that Locate Object can't key on any feature of the object that you wouldn't know at a glance. You could look at a book and see that it's a book, you can see that it's leather-bound, you can probably see that it's a book about the history of liches or about evil gods, but you can't at a glance see that the book is one that mentions Vecna on page 273.

Plus, for a "Find Reference" spell, you probably would want it to tell you things like page numbers, which Locate Object certainly won't do.

That said, it probably wouldn't be amiss as a specialized spell at the same spell level, or at most one higher.

[da newt]

legend lore?

[kazaryu]

We have locate creature, locate object spells. Campaigns make mention of research inside of massive libraries for campaign setting and what not. So if we were to have a 'Find Reference' like spell, what spell level should it be?
The effect being you cast it like a 'Find Vecna' and within say 1000 feet (or whatever the range is), you are 'pinged' of sorts (similar to locate creature or locate object) of all the books that make mention of the exact word of 'Vecna'. Kinda like a computer search, but a 'Locate' search.

power wise, 2nd or 3rd level probably.

[Quietus]

My general feel is that Locate Object can't key on any feature of the object that you wouldn't know at a glance. You could look at a book and see that it's a book, you can see that it's leather-bound, you can probably see that it's a book about the history of liches or about evil gods, but you can't at a glance see that the book is one that mentions Vecna on page 273.

Plus, for a "Find Reference" spell, you probably would want it to tell you things like page numbers, which Locate Object certainly won't do.

That said, it probably wouldn't be amiss as a specialized spell at the same spell level, or at most one higher.

In that case, instead of searching for a book, search for "A page that mentions Vecna or his known monikers".

[Kerilstrasz]

From the top of my head...


Cantrip
Casting time: 1 round per book or other text medium (like murals, scrolls, signs, etc) within range.
Range: Touch / 30ft
Components: V, M (a scrap of paper or parchment with the word(s) you are looking for written on it)

(Have in the description a wording to pass text mediums you can see & you don't want to search.
It can target a text medium you are holding or an area that at least a text medium is within.
The text medium(s) that contain the reference you are looking for glows faintly until you use a bonus action
to touch it, where it opens to the page you reference is. )

At Higher Levels: This spell’s range increases by 30ft when you reach 5th level (60), 11th level (90), and 17th level (120).
If you use a spell slot to cast "this spell", the casting time is halved (no less than 1 round).

[Silly Name]

That said, it probably wouldn't be amiss as a specialized spell at the same spell level, or at most one higher.

Usually, the more restrictive a spell is, the lower level it is: Minor Illusion is a cantrip, Silent Image is 1st level, Major Image is 3rd level.

A spell that helps to speed up research only while you're already in a library could easily be a cantrip, to be honest.

[Reynaert]

Usually, the more restrictive a spell is, the lower level it is: Minor Illusion is a cantrip, Silent Image is 1st level, Major Image is 3rd level.

A spell that helps to speed up research only while you're already in a library could easily be a cantrip, to be honest.

Having it low-level would explain why those large libraries don't have a decent indexing system like real-world libraries have.

[JonBeowulf]

It can easily be written to be anything from a cantrip to 3rd level. I don't like the cantrip idea, though, because it ruins the reason you want to create the spell in the first place. Having a player just announce, "I spam Locate Reference until I find the thing I'm looking for" is not much different then announcing, "I search the library until I'm fairly confident I've found everything there is to find." It reduces the amount of game time spent on the activity but not much else.

I disagree that Locate Object can do the job because it requires the character to be familiar with the item being located. Not the type of item... the item itself. So it'd be great if the character had previously read all the documents in the room and wanted to quickly find something they'd read previously, but it won't help them find something they'd never seen before.**

Personally, I'd give it some real usefulness and make it a 3rd level spell (ritual).

** Interpretations of spell descriptions may vary. Always consult your DM before making assumptions on how a spell works. If you are a DM, ensure your interpretations of spells are consistent to minimize the reasons your players have to complain about you.

[Silly Name]

I disagree that Locate Object can do the job because it requires the character to be familiar with the item being located. Not the type of item... the item itself.

Not how it works.


The spell can locate a specific object known to you, as long as you have seen it up close—within 30 feet—at least once. Alternatively, the spell can locate the nearest object of a particular kind, such as a certain kind of apparel, jewelry, furniture, tool, or weapon.

Now, we can debate whether "Books containing the word 'Vecna' in their text and/or title" is a valid category to target with Locate Objcet, but the spell doesn't necessarily require the character to be familiar with the item being located. The character either looks for a specific object they've already seen up close at least once, or they can try to locate any object that corresponds to a certain definition, such as "leather-bound tomes" or "healer's kit".

For example, once me and my party were looking for a stash of silver ingots. I cast Locate Object to find "silver ingots", and thus knew in what direction the ingots were relative to us.

[LudicSavant]

Not how it works.



Now, we can debate whether "Books containing the word 'Vecna' in their text and/or title" is a valid category to target with Locate Objcet, but the spell doesn't necessarily require the character to be familiar with the item being located. The character either looks for a specific object they've already seen up close at least once, or they can try to locate any object that corresponds to a certain definition, such as "leather-bound tomes" or "healer's kit".

For example, once me and my party were looking for a stash of silver ingots. I cast Locate Object to find "silver ingots", and thus knew in what direction the ingots were relative to us.

Yup yup.

Locate Objects is a spell that has a lot of uses that some people miss.
- It gives you all the variables necessary for triangulation, and therefore tells you the exact distance to and location of objects.
- It has an option to find a specific object familiar to you.
- It has a different option to find the nearest object that fits a general description.
- There's a way it can find multiple objects off a single casting.
- It works on a 10 minute duration, therefore allowing you to canvas a massive area (not just an area a thousand feet from you at time of casting).

[JonBeowulf]

Now, we can debate whether "Books containing the word 'Vecna' in their text and/or title" is a valid category to target with Locate Objcet, but the spell doesn't necessarily require the character to be familiar with the item being located. The character either looks for a specific object they've already seen up close at least once, or they can try to locate any object that corresponds to a certain definition, such as "leather-bound tomes" or "healer's kit".

That's exactly where we disagree... or where we agree. Because that's what we're debating. :shrugs: We might be saying the same thing.


You sense the direction to the object's location, as long as that object is within 1,000 feet of you. If the object is in motion, you know the direction of its movement.

The spell can locate a specific object known to you, as long as you have seen it up close - within 30 feet - at least once. Alternatively, the spell can locate the nearest object of a particular kind, such as a certain kind of apparel, jewelry, furniture, tool, or weapon.

So using it to find "a book older than [number of years]" or "a book on [topic]" would work, and I could be convinced to allow it to work for "a book with [word] in the title"; but "a book that contains [word]" is too specific to be a 'particular kind of book'.

I know I'm splitting hairs since a book on [topic] will surely contain the word [topic]. However, a book that simply includes the word [topic] as an anecdote or reference should not work because a casual mention is not an in-depth dissertation.


Yup yup.

Locate Objects is a spell that has a lot of uses that some people miss.
- It gives you all the variables necessary for triangulation, and therefore tells you the exact distance to and location of objects.
- It has an option to find a specific object familiar to you.
- It has a different option to find the nearest object that fits a general description.
- There's a way it can find multiple objects off a single casting.
- It works on a 10 minute duration, therefore allowing you to canvas a massive area (not just an area a thousand feet from you at time of casting).

Strongly disagree with your first bullet. It merely states you know the direction as long as the object is within 1000 feet and, if the object is in motion, the direction it's traveling. It does not reveal how far away it is.

[Joe the Rat]

A Locate Object variant specific to written media, allowing for some text-specific parameters feels like it sits nicely at second level.


So using it to find "a book older than [number of years]" or "a book on [topic]" would work, and I could be convinced to allow it to work for "a book with [word] in the title"; but "a book that contains [word]" is too specific to be a 'particular kind of book'.

I know I'm splitting hairs since a book on [topic] will surely contain the word [topic]. However, a book that simply includes the word [topic] as an anecdote or reference should not work because a casual mention is not an in-depth dissertation.

This is where Reference Librarians come into play - they're the ones with the training and familiarity needed to easily and succinctly specify the features to hone in on the right volumes for your request.
I can see a Candlekeep-esque library equipping their librarians with Search Medalions.

[Chronos]

2nd or 3rd level might be about right, maybe 1st level, but 0th level is definitely too high. Yes, in some sense, cantrips are more abundant than leveled spells, but in another sense, they're scarce and precious, because you only ever learn a few of them, total, and can't change them out. No PC would ever take a Locate Reference spell as a cantrip, if it means they have to give up Firebolt, or Minor Illusion, or Mage Hand, or Prestidigitation. The spell would end up being solely known by NPC librarians, at which point you might as well avoid the magic and just say that the librarians are very good at their jobs.

[LudicSavant]

Strongly disagree with your first bullet. It merely states you know the direction as long as the object is within 1000 feet and, if the object is in motion, the direction it's traveling. It does not reveal how far away it is.

That is sufficient information to determine exactly how far away it is via triangulation.

So it does, in fact, reveal how far away it is. Or at least, it reveals it to anyone who knows basic geometry.

[JonBeowulf]

That is sufficient information to determine exactly how far away it is via triangulation.

So it does, in fact, reveal how far away it is. Or at least, it reveals it to anyone who knows basic geometry.

If that was true, one could determine the how far they were from the magnetic north pole simply by looking at a compass. It doesn't work that way. A single bearing is simply a straight line between you and the destination. Triangulation requires at least three such lines to (attempt to) pinpoint the destination. The further apart the starting points are, the more accurately the destination can be plotted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_finding

A single casting of Locate Object could only do this if the destination is close enough to allow you to run around and get significantly different bearings -- which could only be done if the destination is close since 10 minutes is not a lot of time for this sort of thing. If the object is within, say 250 feet, then you can probably run around enough to pinpoint it. Definitely true if you're shouting directions to teammates. If the object is more than 500 feet away, I doubt that it's enough time to move to locations far enough apart to get significantly different bearings.

The geometry and application are simple, but the implementation requires space.

[LudicSavant]

If that was true
No, not "if it was true." It simply is true. I and others have been accurately triangulating from using Locate Object since 5e was released!

[JonBeowulf]

Your DM allows you to use Locate Object in a game to triangulate a location... which means that's how DF works in the real world. I've read enough of your posts on this forum to know you can't actually believe that.

Perhaps we're getting hung up on semantics. Triangulation has a distinct meaning and a defined method that must be followed for it to be successful. "150 feet northwest" is not triangulation. It is simply distance and direction.

If your DM allows you to run around and gather different directions from different locations during the 10-minutes the spell is active, cool. That'd be triangulation... but it'd only really work if the object was relatively close. Then again, it's a freaking fantasy game so do we really care?

[LudicSavant]

Your DM allows you to use Locate Object in a game to triangulate a location... which means that's how DF works in the real world.

The only thing the DM tells me is the direction -- same as you said your DM tells you. What I'm saying is that said information is sufficient to draw further inferences.

If you know the direction from two points, you can basically just extend a line in that direction until it intersects on the map and bam, that's where the object is.

Try it out!



Perhaps we're getting hung up on semantics.

Maybe? The important thing is that whatever we choose to call it, a method exists by which you can determine the position of an object by knowing only the information that Locate Object gives you.

[Chronos]

The key is that Locate Object doesn't give you just one answer. It continues giving you the answer for the entire duration of the spell, which is comfortably long. So you cast it, get a direction, and then move 100' perpendicular to that direction, and get a new direction. Presto, two directions from two different points, there's your triangulation. There will be some error, of course, but it'll be good enough to get you much closer, and then you can refine it.


Quoth JonBeowulf:

A single casting of Locate Object could only do this if the destination is close enough to allow you to run around and get significantly different bearings -- which could only be done if the destination is close since 10 minutes is not a lot of time for this sort of thing.
It will be close, since Locate Object has a range limit of 1000', anyway. 10 minutes is plenty for that.

Now, granted, if you're doing a search pattern, and don't detect the object at all until you're on the last minute of the spell, then you won't have time to do this... but in that case, you don't need to, because that's the one situation where Locate Object tells you the distance directly. If you're moving at at some point detect it when you didn't before, you must have just gotten within range of it, and therefore the distance at that moment must be 1000'.

[LudicSavant]

The key is that Locate Object doesn't give you just one answer. It continues giving you the answer for the entire duration of the spell, which is comfortably long. So you cast it, get a direction, and then move 100' perpendicular to that direction, and get a new direction. Presto, two directions from two different points, there's your triangulation. There will be some error, of course, but it'll be good enough to get you much closer, and then you can refine it.


It will be close, since Locate Object has a range limit of 1000', anyway. 10 minutes is plenty for that.

Now, granted, if you're doing a search pattern, and don't detect the object at all until you're on the last minute of the spell, then you won't have time to do this... but in that case, you don't need to, because that's the one situation where Locate Object tells you the distance directly. If you're moving at at some point detect it when you didn't before, you must have just gotten within range of it, and therefore the distance at that moment must be 1000'.

Precisely! All of what Chronos just said.

Locate Object isn't just telling you the direction, it's telling you the direction with respect to your time and shifting position. That's an insanely useful variable that allows you to discern all manner of handy things.

[Slipjig]

Hmm. I'd argue that being able to search an entire library is an INCREDIBLE powerful ability, because "find every instance of the word Vecna" would represent saving TENS OF THOUSANDS of man-hours every time you cast it. Heck, depending on how big the library is and how well it's organized, you might be spending hundreds of hours just to read all the TITLES.
Given that we're talking about something that let's you skip literal YEARS worth of work, I think a "library-wide Ctrl-F" should be a pretty high-level spell.
I would limit Locate Object to finding a specific book where you know the title (or maybe author), or have a physical description of the book.

[Chronos]

The proposed spell doesn't let you find every reference all at once. It just finds the closest reference. To get every reference, you'd have to find the first one, then get it out of range, and then find the next-closest, and so on, and it still wouldn't distinguish between the books with a single casual mention in one paragraph and the books that are all about undead apotheosis with lots of details. Plus, of course, such a spell would also make it much easier to obscure information: Vecna himself knows a lot more precisely exactly what pieces of information he doesn't want known, so he can just go to a library, find all the sources with that specific piece of information, and make sure they're destroyed, lost, or otherwise unavailable.

[Reynaert]

Precisely! All of what Chronos just said.

Locate Object isn't just telling you the direction, it's telling you the direction with respect to your time and shifting position. That's an insanely useful variable that allows you to discern all manner of handy things.

In real life, that would be a bit more difficult, because you also need a reference direction to be able to angle the lines accurately on the map, and also you need to accurately determine how far you're moving between direction scans.

Fortunately, almost all dungeon builders in DND build their dungeons perfectly square, and the maps are always 100% accurate.

(IOW: If you're in a maze of twisty little passages, all different, good luck trying to triangulate)

[Chronos]

That's part of the same abstraction as all spellcasters having laser rangefinders in their eyes, so they can always tell whether a target is within range of any given spell.

But yeah, a sufficiently-twisty dungeon can defeat it. If you learn that the object is 700' thataway, but by the time you get close to that point, you've had to squiggle through five miles of twisty passages, you're probably not going to know where you are relative to the thing.

[LibraryOgre]

CTRL+F
123456

Sixth level. :smallbiggrin:

[follacchioso]

First of all, the easiest way to find something in a library is to ask the librarian. A few years ago I visited a monastery in Catalunya where one of the monks had a system that allowed him to find books on any specific topic using just 4 steps, using a technique he had inherited from his predecessors over several centuries. Libraries are not random bundles of books scattered everywhere, but they are usually tidy collections organized in sections and bookshelves, by librarians that have dedicated all their lives to making things easier to find.

So, if your players are not smart enough to ask the librarian, I would not reward them with an easy way to solve things with magic. Most certainly I would not give them a low-level spell that they could spam around to find whatever they need, because that would nullify the whole concept of having a library in the first place. Why would people keep books organized in bookshelves, when they can just cast a simple spell and find what they want? Why not just throw everything in a big pile, and leave it

If you really want to give your players the power to CTRL-F, I would at least add a hefty material component to it, something that would prevent people from spamming the spell continuously. Make it at least 500/1000 gp, and a third level spell, so it is not easy to access.

In alternative, conjure your homunculus and let it do the search for you. Leave it there for a week, then wait until it pings you back telepathically.