Game Planning - In need of tips & guidance...

[Kerilstrasz]

5e
extremely low to non existent magic
Urban setting ( metropolis, about a mil population )
Grim, "film noir" vibes

2-3 players
They are the "bad guys", kinda..
For their own reasons, they are thieves, burglars, assassins, smugglers, spies, etc...
They do "jobs". For them? for someone else? For fun? For money? Because someone is making them?

The more jobs, the higher police attention they attract...
They rob a baker? meh..
They beat up a citizen? they ll attract some attention may get away with it if careful.
They rob a bank? Active investigation by a police team at least
They rob a gang's front? Organized criminals are after them
They assassinate one of the city's officials? Funds are relocated into teams that search for them

Do they have a hideout?
Do they have funds? How about contacts?
Do they have the skills, the know how, the equipment?

What are your thoughts?
What are some red flags i should watch for?
What kind of preparations you think is due?
I'm thinkin of preparing a few key elements ( points of interest, landmarks, key NPCs of various professions )
and then built the world on the go by reacting to the players.

Thoughts ???

[Unoriginal]

5e
extremely low to non existent magic
Urban setting ( metropolis, about a mil population )
Grim, "film noir" vibes

2-3 players
They are the "bad guys", kinda..
For their own reasons, they are thieves, burglars, assassins, smugglers, spies, etc...
They do "jobs". For them? for someone else? For fun? For money? Because someone is making them?

The more jobs, the higher police attention they attract...
They rob a baker? meh..
They beat up a citizen? they ll attract some attention may get away with it if careful.
They rob a bank? Active investigation by a police team at least
They rob a gang's front? Organized criminals are after them
They assassinate one of the city's officials? Funds are relocated into teams that search for them

Do they have a hideout?
Do they have funds? How about contacts?
Do they have the skills, the know how, the equipment?

What are your thoughts?
What are some red flags i should watch for?
What kind of preparations you think is due?
I'm thinkin of preparing a few key elements ( points of interest, landmarks, key NPCs of various professions )
and then built the world on the go by reacting to the players.

Thoughts ???

My advice is to not use 5e for a low-to-inexistant magic setting.

If you want there are low magic games about handling criminal ventures, like Blades in the Dark.

[animorte]

My advice is to not use 5e for a low-to-inexistant magic setting.

If you want there are low magic games about handling criminal ventures, like Blades in the Dark.
While this is definitely sound advice, not everyone has the time or desire to learn a new system. (I know nothing of your suggestion, so it may be more accessible than I'm giving it credit for.)

Anyway, I think that would be a session zero discussion. As long as it's comprehensive and straightforward, I'm sure the people involved will be fine with it. I certainly enjoy pressing the boundaries of a system I love with creative adventures.

Of course, I would think there to be no casting classes. Or, if there are, limit to half-casting. Still to this day, one of the most fun campaigns I've played had absolutely no full casters. Just remember to balance the game accordingly.

[Sorinth]

The way I see things playing out is that there will be a job, that seems small but likely leads to something bigger after which the players will need to lie low to let the heat die down which is basically downtime. So I feel like there will be a lot of downtime between "adventures" so a key question for session 0 would be how much table time do people want dedicated to downtime activities.

I don't think you need to answer things like hideouts, patrons, or the reasons they are criminals or do certain jobs. That's all stuff for the players to decide, all you need to do is focus on providing opportunities. So create a number of NPCs/Factions and figure out the general relationship between the groups and then play it by ear how the PCs doing jobs impacts those relationships.

That said it could be interesting to provide a gaming structure to hideouts, if hideouts provided mechanical benefits then it adds an extra angle for the players in choosing their hideout, and if they can spend money on upgrades that's always fun. I would maybe want to flesh out the rules you will be using for police investigations and then have the hideouts interact with that rule set, so if for example the police investigation is resolved through a series of rolls, hideouts might provide a bonus/penalty to some of them, some might provide better security so if/when the police show up the players don't lose their stash of loot, etc...

[MrStabby]

I think that there is some great opportunity for exploring the non-combat side of the game. The social extorition, the reconaisance, the politics etc.. I think it could also be fun that there is a real incenive to use pretty bloodless methods of achieving your goals. I think it could be very interesting. If you set yourself a target to draw these out then I think it could work - these also work very will with the low magic setting (no detect thoughts, no speak with dead, no scrying, no zone of truth, no flyspierclimb, no invisibility). THis would mean that prep work might involve more development of NPC backstories, a rich tapestry of clues and so on.

Having the local police/watch drink at the same pub the PCs do might be a little artificial, but could give them a bit of feedback through overheard conversations about their reutation and what's known about them and so on. Esssentially their impact on the world

[Lunali]

While this is definitely sound advice, not everyone has the time or desire to learn a new system. (I know nothing of your suggestion, so it may be more accessible than I'm giving it credit for.)

While true, there aren't a lot of modern RPGs that take longer to learn than 5e.

[KorvinStarmast]

5e
extremely low to non existent magic
Urban setting ( metropolis, about a mil population )
Grim, "film noir" vibes

2-3 players
They are the "bad guys", kinda..
For their own reasons, they are thieves, burglars, assassins, smugglers, spies, etc...
They do "jobs". For them? for someone else? For fun? For money? Because someone is making them?

The more jobs, the higher police attention they attract...
They rob a baker? meh..
They beat up a citizen? they ll attract some attention may get away with it if careful.
They rob a bank? Active investigation by a police team at least
They rob a gang's front? Organized criminals are after them
They assassinate one of the city's officials? Funds are relocated into teams that search for them

Do they have a hideout?
Do they have funds? How about contacts?
Do they have the skills, the know how, the equipment?

What are your thoughts?
What are some red flags i should watch for?
What kind of preparations you think is due?
I'm thinkin of preparing a few key elements ( points of interest, landmarks, key NPCs of various professions )
and then built the world on the go by reacting to the players.

Thoughts ???

Blades in the Dark was built for this.

But TBH, 5e can make this work, but I don't have the time to tell you how to do it.
Playing in a campaign like this in the City State of the Invincible Overlord in Original D&D was one of my favorite D&D game experiences ever.

All Thieves/Rogues.
1 GP =1 XP helps to make this a low combat, high risk, high innovation game.
I'd advise you to not make Monsters the problem, but make getting in and out without encountering anyone/anything the problem.
And a few animated armors might be good guardians for treasure ...

[Mastikator]

If you end up going 5e then I'd suggest

Start at level 1 and stay there
Ban all full caster classes
Don't have any magic items
Ban exotic/weird races too, to make the tone and theme more down to earth

[LudicSavant]

Blades in the Dark [/I]was built for this.

I need to get around to trying that one. I heard it inspired the clock mechanic in Fabula Ultima (and I adore Fabula Ultima)

[Kane0]

So Barbarian, Fighter and Rogue only?

Might I also suggest some nonmagical 3rd party classes like the Warlord (Tastykibbles), Savant and Commoner (LaserLlama)?

You will probably want to make good use of Xanathars traps and downtime.

[Kerilstrasz]

Regarding spellcasters...
1 idea is to ban all of em.
Then I thought to allow hand picked subclasses that can cast... Another idea was to allow everything, but to make clear before session 0 that if you cast a spell within city limits, the police antimagic network can detect you.
20% chance per lvl of spellslot used to know the location of the spell cast, identity of the caster, and which spell cast. That would be 3 different d100 rolls.
Obviously any spell of lvl5 and above is an auto track.
Maybe if they "upgrade" their hideout those chances could get lower...
These are just ideas.. Nothing concrete yet.

[tchntm43]

If you end up going 5e then I'd suggest

Start at level 1 and stay there
Ban all full caster classes
Don't have any magic items
Ban exotic/weird races too, to make the tone and theme more down to earth


I would also think these to be reasonable suggestions, in theory, but without level advancement and magic items, you lose out on the game's primary methods for players being rewarded and having a sense of progression. All accomplishment becomes purely by role-play, which may work for some people but definitely won't work for everyone. Just something to keep in mind.

[Sigreid]

Sounds to me like you're describing a D&D version of a Cyberpunk or Shadow run campaign. My biggest advice is to not go full CSI on them. With D&D divination, it can be pretty easy to justify the authorities or the rich guy always finding them and a key component if this kind of game is that they have to be able to fade into the shadows and get away.

[Sorinth]

Regarding spellcasters...
1 idea is to ban all of em.
Then I thought to allow hand picked subclasses that can cast... Another idea was to allow everything, but to make clear before session 0 that if you cast a spell within city limits, the police antimagic network can detect you.
20% chance per lvl of spellslot used to know the location of the spell cast, identity of the caster, and which spell cast. That would be 3 different d100 rolls.
Obviously any spell of lvl5 and above is an auto track.
Maybe if they "upgrade" their hideout those chances could get lower...
These are just ideas.. Nothing concrete yet.

I would suggest just having a highly curated spell list. That way you can remove any spells that will cause issues with your plans and you can dive into the world building aspect. So for example if magic is rare because it's demonic in nature and is mostly fire/destruction spells you can avoid the spells like invisibility and detect thoughts that make the whole sneaking/stealing too easy and it also provides a strong world building element and RP opportunities. There's a very good reason the authorities/populace wanting casters to be arrested/killed, and having a caster on the loose will have a lot of RP opportunities as they gain infamy.

If you want to go down the route of every time you cast there's a chance of something bad happening then there's always the insanity route. Casting spells adds a cumulative chance of gaining a Madness condition from the DMG.

[Kurt Kurageous]

On the worldbuilding side, remember that their players are not entering a vacuum.

You say beating up a baker is meh. I disagree. That baker paid good money one way or another (protection/police) to be free from that kind of nonsense. It's not the baker themselves you have to worry about, it's the forces behind the status quo.

Have multiple factions with goals, identify how those goals manifest in ways the PCs can experience (such as an NPC representative or a group of NPCs carrying out the plan), and let the party respond. But don't be surprised if they handle it all badly. After all, the players are (hopefully?) not professional criminals and have limited experience setting up a sustainable hustle on their first go around.

[Skrum]

Even as someone who has only played 5e and will default to it for anything, I think you're going to be fighting the system pretty hard if you go all the way on this. Even martial classes get thematically magical powers, particularly from subclasses. So unless you're *also* intending to not level basically at all, you're gonna run into problems. And I agree with Tchntm43; no progression is going to be pretty claustrophobic from the player side. It's yet another way you're going to be fighting the system to make your game work.

My advice would be to
1) Don't ban magic. Make it narratively dangerous. Off the top of my head, something something happened 200 years ago and now people who practice magic are extremely distrusted, and casting spells in public is strongly prohibited (the police will be called and you'll be arrested)

2) But magic is really important. Despite the danger of it, magic is magic. It's incredibly useful. Criminals still employ it, rich people have elaborate methods to protect themselves from it, and even though it's banned, corrupt politicians and their friends figure out ways to get the spells cast

3) If you're going to do a magic sensor network, have it only protect the rich parts of town. This is about having the risks of magic enrich the setting, not just constrain players with random die rolls. If someone casts a spell at the corner of Boardwalk and Park Place, the Anti-Magic Police get tipped and they're on the scene in a matter of minutes, and they have arcane bloodhounds that can track the subtle leylines of magical residue. If someone casts a spell on Mediterranean Ave, and they didn't get the permission of "Pretty Boy" Floyd first, who runs that part of town, the fishes are gonna eat well tonight.

4) Ban particular spells that work *against* intrigue. Invisibility is fine in this setting. Rich people have heat sensors, poor people dump flour on the floor, but there still might be lots of reasons for the players to cast invisibility, despite the risks. The tension goes *up.* It helps the story. But if the players are asked to investigate a murder, speak with dead presents an immediate hassle. Now you have to contrive some reason for it to not work, just so you can do an murder investigation. That works *against* the story. Ban it, along with detect thoughts, augury, and anything else that's going to present annoying problems. TBC, these spells aren't just social censored within the world, they don't exist in the game at all. Might be worth considering banning teleportation spells too, like misty step, vortex warp, and thunder step. While they don't ruin intrigue, they're a strong get out of jail free card that will run against the gritty noir setting.

5) Probably don't go higher than 5 or 6. The martials get too good, the amount of spells that are going to cause you problems starts multiplying, and the game begins to lose the grimdark feel.

[KorvinStarmast]

I need to get around to trying that one. I heard it inspired the clock mechanic in Fabula Ultima (and I adore Fabula Ultima) I'd suggest playing it with players/friends who:

Have played RPGs before
Don't mind reading the book.
Like to learn the game together.

It is a lot better when the whole table is into it.


(Granted, I have not read the rules 83 times yet (that's a bit of a reddit joke) but as we have played we have all gotten used to the nuances that make this a particularly good fit for what we were interested in).

[Mastikator]

Regarding spellcasters...
1 idea is to ban all of em.
Then I thought to allow hand picked subclasses that can cast... Another idea was to allow everything, but to make clear before session 0 that if you cast a spell within city limits, the police antimagic network can detect you.
20% chance per lvl of spellslot used to know the location of the spell cast, identity of the caster, and which spell cast. That would be 3 different d100 rolls.
Obviously any spell of lvl5 and above is an auto track.
Maybe if they "upgrade" their hideout those chances could get lower...
These are just ideas.. Nothing concrete yet.

This kind of world building tells me that magic is low to nonexistent because the state controls and hoards magic. If you want magic to just be extremely rare then you could add risk to magic that makes it often not worth it, something intrinsic to the world, like a global wild magic zone that has almost only negative effects on a surge.

[LudicSavant]

I'd suggest playing it with players/friends who:

Have played RPGs before
Don't mind reading the book.
Like to learn the game together.


I think that describes all of my friends. Livin' the dream.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think that describes all of my friends. Livin' the dream. We are having a good time with it, to be sure, and I have chosen to lean into stress and trauma.

[Oramac]

5e
extremely low to non existent magic
Urban setting ( metropolis, about a mil population )
Grim, "film noir" vibes
snip

Thoughts ???

I'd recommend looking at Everyday Heroes (https://www.evilgeniusgames.com/). It's basically still 5e, but intended for a more modern, low-to-no-magic setting.

Other than that, I'd agree with both Skrum and Kurt Kurageous.

[Easy e]

I look forward to reading the game log for this one to see how it works out.