One D&D Subclass Speculation

[Hurrashane]

What's everyone's thoughts on what 4 subclasses each class in the PHB will be? Or which ones would you like and why?

Barbarian: Frenzy, Totem, Storm Herald (I think this one is considered pretty lackluster, so it'd be good to see it revisited), Reaping Mauler (another not so good barb subclass, but turned into an unarmed barb and grappler? I'll take it. Also one of the few non magical Barbs)

Bard: Lore, swords/valor (I think these two could/should be combined as they have similar themes and gives this expert a way to steal warrior class stuff), whispers bard (always good to have a more sinister subclass), and I think I heard somewhere they were working on a college of dance?

Cleric: life, light, tempest, and death (again, sinister subclass)

Druid: Moon, Land, and then I'm not sure. Something new that gives them an animal companion like druids of old would be nice.

Fighter: Champion, Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight/Arcane Archer (Combine these two, give them the Arcane Archer effects that can be delivered by weapon attack, maybe powered by spell slots), then either something new or the Purple Dragon Knight (it could be really good with a few tweaks)

Monk: Open hand, 4 elements (I wouldn't mind seeing it as a 1/3 caster), kensei (Warrior gunna warrior), and Shadow

Paladin: Devotion, Ancients, Vengeance, and maybe Conquest or Oathbreaker (for a more sinister option)

Ranger: Hunter, Beastmaster, Gloomstalker (for more stealthy Ranger), then something new I think maybe one that does more healing?

Rogue: Thief, Assassin, Arcane Trickster, then Swashbuckler (to steal from warriors)

Sorcerer: Draconic, Wild Magic, Storm (another subclass that I don't think many like), and then either shadow (for a more sinister option) or something new.

Warlock: Fiend, GOO, Fey, then I think combining undying and undead Warlock would be good. But Celestial is also a good option, hmm.

Wizard: Evocation, Abjuration, Illusion (Make illusions as a whole less mother may I), then Necromancer

Those are my thoughts, what are yours? What would you like to see?

[animorte]

There was a thread discussing this exact same thing several months ago when the UA and OneD&D began taking over the subforum. Either way, fun to think about still, and intrresting to see how views may have changed.

I'll just put in the other three I'd like to see (as opposed to my realistic expectations), very biased as I do indeed have personal preference (as I'm sure everyone does).

Barbarian: Ancestral Guardian, Zealot, Wild Magic

Bard: Swords/Valor (I agree with you), Spirits, Whispers

Cleric: Light, Peace, Trickery

Druid: Stars, Dreams, Spores

Fighter: Echo Knight, Rune Knight, Psi-Warrior (I think Battle Master maneuvers should be more accessible to the Fighter in general).

Monk: (Open Hand is standard, of course.) Mercy, Shadow, and Four Elements needs improvement.

Paladin: Crown, Vengeance, Watchers

Ranger: Swarmkeeper, Gloomstalker (iconic by this point), Beast Master

Rogue: Arcane Trickster, Phantom, Swashbuckler

Sorcerer: Divine Soul, Shadow, Wild Magic (definitely favorites)

Warlock: Celestial, Genie, Undead (favorites, no doubt)

Wizard: (Evocation is good, but I've never cared for the school focus.) Bladesinging, Scribes, War

[Skrum]

My guess is the One phb subclasses are going to be the same as the 5e phb. I want to know what's going to happen to the others though. Are they going to be updated, portable...?

[Hurrashane]

My guess is the One phb subclasses are going to be the same as the 5e phb. I want to know what's going to happen to the others though. Are they going to be updated, portable...?

There's going to be 4 subclasses per class in the one D&D PHB, so they could only be the same if the class already had 4. If they had more, some are going to be missing. If they had less new ones will need to be added.

[Skrum]

There's going to be 4 subclasses per class in the one D&D PHB, so they could only be the same if the class already had 4. If they had more, some are going to be missing. If they had less new ones will need to be added.

Doesn't that phb currently offer 4 classes per class....? Or is it only 3

[Hurrashane]

Doesn't that phb currently offer 4 classes per class....? Or is it only 3

Some have only two, like the barbarian (frenzy and totem) and some have quite a few like the wizard (abjuration, conjuration, divination, evocation, enchantment, illusion, necromancy)

[Warlock'sFriend]

As a warlock player, I hope they include Fiend, Great Old One, Archfey, and Undead (but it will probably be Celestial since Undead was so recent)

[Zevox]

Basic thought: other than the Cleric and Wizard, which are losing PHB subclasses since they had more than four, I would expect all existing PHB subclasses will likely be in. With that said, leaving off the ones we know already, my half-expectations, half-wish-list would be:

Barbarian: Totem, Beast, ?
- Totem is expected. Beast is my personal wish, the one Barbarian subclass that has made me consider playing the class. No idea for the fourth, I have no others that appeal to me and none that jump out to me as the obvious pick for filling an important thematic niche.

Bard: Valor (or Swords?), Creation, Whispers.
- Valor and Swords cover the same basic concept, so it's possible they replace Valor with Swords if they think it represents it better; probably the only PHB subclass outside of Cleric and Wizard that I think might have a chance to not return. Creation is my wish-listy pick, as it's the one I thought was most cool personally. Whispers fills an important enough niche as a more sinister, evil-leaning variant subclass that I could see it getting picked on that alone.

Cleric: Light, War, Trickery.
- This is me picking what I feel fill the important niches for the class out of the PHB subclasses. The blaster-caster Light domain, the more martial-leaning War domain, and the more roguish Trickery domain. Tempest or Knowledge might edge out Light or Trickery respectively, perhaps, but I'd more expect the ones I listed in each case.

Druid: Land, Stars, Shepherd.
- Land is expected. Stars is my personal wish-list choice, by far the coolest Druid subclass to me. Shepherd being summoning-focused feels like a very appropriate niche of the class to represent, more so than any of the other options, IMO.

Fighter: Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, Psychic Warrior.
- The first two are expected, Psychic Warrior is 100% my personal bias wish-list pick. Realistically I doubt it will be the fourth pick, but I don't have a great idea of what will be.

Monk: Open Palm, Shadows, Four Elements, Sun Soul.
- The first three are expected, and Sun Soul fills an interesting niche as the closest D&D is going to get a Dragon Ball-style character. Could also see Drunken Master getting chosen over it, though, just because the theme there also obviously has a lot of appeal to some.

Paladin: Ancients, Vengeance, Conquest.
- The expected two, plus throwing in Conquest as a more evil-leaning variant.

Ranger: Beast Master, Gloom Stalker, Fey Wanderer.
- Aside from the expected pick, this is pretty much random guessing and very slight bias on my part. I honestly have no clue what the most likely picks would be for this class.

Rogue: Assassin, Arcane Trickster, Soulknife.
- Two expected picks, one totally personal wish-list pick. If I were going more with what I'd expect, I'd say Swashbuckler instead of Soulknife, that particular archetype feels like the best one to include in the PHB for general audiences.

Sorcerer: Wild Magic, Storm, Divine Soul.
- The expected, plus what feel like the two coolest themes to add in to me personally. I'd say Divine Soul is more expectation than personal bias, while Storm is more on the personal bias side but more reasonable than, say, my Psionics bias for Fighter and Rogue.

Warlock: Archfey, Great Old One, Celestial.
- The expected, plus Celestial as a counterpart to the Fiend. Just feels like it fills the most important thematic niche that wasn't in the original PHB. Runner-up would be the Genie, since it was such a popular one.

Wizard: Necromancy, Illusion or Enchantment, Bladesinger.
- Tough to make a call on this one, especially to include a subclass that wasn't in the original PHB. I feel like Nercomancy is a given, it's too famous and popular a niche for a Wizard not to be in. Bladesinger I pick because it fills a major gameplay niche of giving the Wizard some martial ability, which I think they'll want as one of the core options (and it's also somewhat of a personal bias choice). Hard to say which of the other schools becomes the last pick. I think the ones that fill the most important thematic niches are Illusion, Enchantment, and Conjuration, but my reasoning in leaving out that last is that if Druid has the Sherpherd subclass (which I think is likely), then perhaps the Wizard also having a summoning-focused subclass is less of a priority for the PHB. I could/will likely be very wrong about this, I could see a lot of possible combinations with the Wizard, the only thing I'm fully confident in is that Necromancy will be there.

[T.G. Oskar]

Paladin: Crown, Vengeance, Watchers

Nah, it'll probably be Ancients, Redemption and a new one that'll combine Conquest with Vengeance.

Though Oath of the Crown is underrated to some aspect, it's also extremely front-loaded. Champion's Challenge was decent if you could use it as a chokepoint, but with ranged attackers you can't do much. Turn the Tide is considered too weak (for those who don't see that it's an emergency heal much like Lay on Hands), its "aura" feature was completely overshadowed by Redemption's Aura of the Guardian, and after 9th level what you gained wasn't too great. Meanwhile, Redemption has a much better capstone and some great spells, making for a much better late-game subclass. Thus, I feel that Redemption will just cannibalize Crown and take whatever was left without losing its focus. (And, to be honest, Paladins already get Spirit Guardians, so there's virtually no reason why to stay with Oath of the Crown other than Bigby's Hand.)

Meanwhile, Vengeance was always considered the "dark" Paladin, and Conquest follows a similar line - therefore, it's reasonable that the two are fused into a "Blackguard" of sorts. I do feel that Vengeance will be the dominating paradigm, though.

[Rukelnikov]

I was writting names of subclasses but stopped when I got to the fighter, cause I realised they are likely to include at least one "new" subclass for each class, so I think its better to write the themes I think they'll go for (and maybe which subs tfrom 5e those could be or could be reflavored into).

Barbarian: Frenzy
Shamanistic - Totem
Lycan Feel - Beast
Maybe something with Rage Beyond Death? Doubt Zealot since it overlaps with Frenzy Zerk, though, to be honest, why doesn't FB get RBD? Idk...

Bard: Lore
Gish - Valor/Swords, hope for a more Swords feel whatever its name is.
Stealthy Bard - Whisper or maybe new
Maybe something with a divine feel to it?

Cleric: Tempted to go with Life, Death, War and Peace since those are, in a way, representative of the 4 alignments, but there's likely too much mechanical overlap, and no clear blaster.

Life
Combat oriented - War
Blasty oriented - Light or maybe Tempest or New
Something very different from the ohers, like Trickery, Death(Necromancer) or New

Druid: Moon
More Caster - Land
Summoner - Sheperd or New, leaning towards new since I'd imagine they are gonna go with Tasha's like summons
Blighter?

Fighter: Champion
Magic Fighter - Eldritch Knight
Cunning Fighter - Battlemaster or New, I still hold out hope that maneuvers become a general part of combat that most martials have access to
Commander - I dunno if they would go with PDK since I'm not really sure if they wanna push Faerun or not, it'd probably be called something else.

Monk: Open Hand? Not sure, I hope they roll Open Hand's most defining feature in the monk chassis nowthat weapons have masteries which allow to do the same kind of things OHT does,
Wholeness of Body in theme is currently part of every monk, Quickened Healing is Wholeness of Body by another name, and Quivering Palm could be part of the monk chassis, so if there is an
Open Hand, I'd expect it to be very different from the 5e one.

Weapons Specialist - Kensei
Ninja - Shadow
Shonen character - MAYBE 4E, Ninja could be subsumed by this sub.

Paladin: Devotion
Anti-Paladin - Oathbreaker
More Knightly/Martial Prowess - New
Anti-Hero? - Vengeance

Ranger: Hunter
Animal Companion - Beastmaster
??
Geralt - Only if Hunter or 3 are not Geralt enough

Rogue: Thief
Duelist - Swashbuckler
Magic Rogue - AT
Charismart Rogue - New or maybe Mastermind with heavy modifications

Sorcerer: Draconic
Wild
Outsider blood - Divine Soul with maybe a couple twists
New

Warlock: Fiend
MindFLock - GOO
Nice Lock - Celestial
Summoner - New

Wizard: Evoker
Necromancer
Battlefield Controller - Conjuration or Illusionist
Gish? Geometer? Runemaster?

I hoped they wouldn't do subs by school, but given they already printed an Evoker in UA, seems like they will, feels so wrong to me to leave at least 4 schools out, and taking a lot of space that could be dedicate to non school subs

[Hurrashane]

I was writting names of subclasses but stopped when I got to the fighter, cause I realised they are likely to include at least one "new" subclass for each class, so I think its better to write the themes I think they'll go for (and maybe which subs from 5e those could be or could be reflavored into).

Them giving each class a new subclass could help sway people to get it even if they're not switching to One D&D, if the game is backwards compatible enough those could be lifted almost whole cloth or homebrewed into og 5e with some tweaks.



Monk: Open Hand? Not sure, I hope they roll Open Hand's most defining feature in the monk chassis nowthat weapons have masteries which allow to do the same kind of things OHT does,
Wholeness of Body in theme is currently part of every monk, Quickened Healing is Wholeness of Body by another name, and Quivering Palm could be part of the monk chassis, so if there is an
Open Hand, I'd expect it to be very different from the 5e one.


I didn't even think of this. Maybe that's why the Monk was notably absent from the UA.

[Rukelnikov]

Them giving each class a new subclass could help sway people to get it even if they're not switching to One D&D, if the game is backwards compatible enough those could be lifted almost whole cloth or homebrewed into og 5e with some tweaks.

Yeah, as a selling point, I think having at least one new sub for each class would be a good idea.

[One Tin Soldier]

I didn't even think of this. Maybe that's why the Monk was notably absent from the UA.

I’m pretty sure the reason the monk was absent is because they are redesigning the class to be less dependent on East Asian aesthetics. Considering how much of the class is built on those aesthetics, they had a lot of work to do on that front, so it probably just wasn’t done yet.

[Skrum]

I’m pretty sure the reason the monk was absent is because they are redesigning the class to be less dependent on East Asian aesthetics. Considering how much of the class is built on those aesthetics, they had a lot of work to do on that front, so it probably just wasn’t done yet.

#monkshouldbeafightersubclass

Monk needs to be a lot more generic, mechanically and narratively. It's heartening to hear that it's being moved away from the Asian theming. I just hope they go far enough

[paladinn]

Monk seems to be another class with an identity crisis. In OD&D it was billed as a cleric subclass. And all the mystical "Eastern" flavor did lend itself to that. If it's being moved away from that to become a warrior class, I would suggest a different name is in order. Historically, nothing screams "cleric" more than the label "monk" (except for maybe "priest").

[Psyren]

Here are the ones we know for sure (based on packets and interview statements):

Barbarian - Berserker
Bard - Lore, Dance
Cleric - Life
Druid - Moon
Fighter - Champion
Monk - ???? (Open Hand?)
Paladin - Devotion
Ranger - Hunter
Rogue - Thief
Sorcerer - Draconic, Wild
Warlock - Fiend
Wizard - Evoker, Necromancer

As Bard shows, we'll be getting some never-before-seen ones, so we may want to keep that possibility in mind.

For Monk I could see Open Hand being the basic monk subclass even if a number of its features get baked into the base monk/base unarmed rules. There is conceptual room for the monk that gets benefits from only punching. Shadow being a pseudo-rogue scout, and 4 Elements being the monk 1/3 caster similarly to EK and AT also makes a lot of sense to me.

For the fourth monk I'd actually suggest Kensei as it would be the monk that can use martial weapons and thus interact with the Mastery system the most in core.

[Joe the Rat]

Looking at getting to four, here's my wagers.

Overall, I don't expect to see 2014 options replaced. That is my main guesstimate on their "same edition" approach.

Barbarian: Totem, Berserker,... I'd bet Beast and Storm. Beast is a gamble though - there's some thematic fuzziness between Beast and Totem. But it gives you a way to Unarmed Barbarian without stealing fighter tricks.

Bard: Lore, Valor (which is different from swords, since Valor still gives boons to allies, whereas Swords uses all the inspirations on themselves for flourishes), Whispers (a thematically distinct selfish bard), and glamor.

Cleric: Trimmed to Life, Light, Tempest, War.

Druid: Land, Moon, Wildfire, Dreams. Wildfire is picked as a prime example of using channel divinity nature for not-wildshape.

Fighter: Champion, Battle Master, Eldritch Knight, Rune Knight. Banneret is just a little too off-sides, and I don't think they will be bringing psionics to the core. RK is a bit of a gamble as that makes two core magic-like fighteres, but eh.

Monk: Hands, Elements, Shadow, Kensei (which may or may not get renamed)

Ranger: Hunter, Beastmaster, Horizon Walker, Swarmkeeper. Hunter is likely to incorporate (or be replaced by) Monster Hunter.

Rogue: Thief, Arcane Trickster, Assassin (which may get tweaked A LOT), Swashbuckler. If they drop from core, Assassin will get dipped for Inquisitive or Mastermind.

Sorcerer: Dragon, Wild, Storm, Shadow - A wide range of themes for contacted/ absorbed power. I'm not going DS here because...

Warlock: Fiend, Fey, GOO, Celestial. If anyone is going to get to play with the master list system, why not Warlock? This also rounds out the options carried from 3rd/4th.
Personally I like Genie more, but Celestial Warlock = Ur-Priest is a standard fixture in my head. It also makes Warlock options mostly orthogoinal to the sorcerer options, though WotC has this mindset about Wild Magic being a fey thing.

Wizard: Evocation, Abjuration, Illusion, Necromancy. I'm gambling on Abjuration - as I don't think they are going to have a reliable, functional, sensible range of summons to utilize the boosts. Actually, I take that back, Evoc, Conjur, Illusion, Necro. Blaster, rabbits and portals, classic class and control withough being Enchanter-level creepy, and Token Evil Teammate.

[Theodoxus]

I'm a little sad about Wizard referencing schools. 1) it's hard to pick 4, as at least 6 are iconic enough to warrant keeping, and Enchantment and Transmutation have nifty abilities that I would love to see kept.

Until Psyren mentioned WotC keeping necromancer, I was kinda hoping the UA was showcasing how they would update the 5E subclasses as if they were going to keep them; as such while they used Evoker as the example, the final product would update the name to Warmage.

So, my pick for Wizard would be: Bladesinger ("martial"), Dunamancer ("Exotic/Esoteric" - combining both Chronurgy and Graviturgy), Scribe ("utilitarian"), and Warmage ("Evoker"/"Blaster")

But, if they stick with boring schools, then Abjuration, Evocation, Illusion, and Necromancy as the four ordinal cornerstones of magic would be my guess.

[paladinn]

I wish there was a good "generalist" option for wizards. I guess war mage was supposed to be that, but it seems to be more an evoker on steroids.

I think the problem with subclasses is that so much of a character's identity and ability are tied up in his/her subclass. Some classes have decent "general" options (fighter>champion, even if it needs work; ranger>hunter; paladin>devotion; rogue>thief; etc.) But for clerics, if his/her deity doesn't have a set domain, what's the option? Life? And same for wizards and their schools.

Just my $.02

[Rukelnikov]

I wish there was a good "generalist" option for wizards. I guess war mage was supposed to be that, but it seems to be more an evoker on steroids.

I think the problem with subclasses is that so much of a character's identity and ability are tied up in his/her subclass. Some classes have decent "general" options (fighter>champion, even if it needs work; ranger>hunter; paladin>devotion; rogue>thief; etc.) But for clerics, if his/her deity doesn't have a set domain, what's the option? Life? And same for wizards and their schools.

Just my $.02

I think Scribes is the closest to a generalist from a mechanical perspective

[Theodoxus]

But for clerics, if his/her deity doesn't have a set domain, what's the option?

I solved that problem by moving away from a pantheon and to a monotheistic system of denominations. So, the Denomination of Death follows the same God as the Denomination of Life, but have diametrically opposing philosophies. Definitely solves the "I have a God, but no domain yet" issue, though I know other issues could pop up.


I think Scribes is the closest to a generalist from a mechanical perspective

Agree 100%

[Saelethil]

My expectation (and a little wishful thinking) is that we will mostly keep the 5e subclasses with a few exceptions but here goes.

Barbarian: Berserker, Totem, Beast (if it steps too much on Berserker’s and Totem’s toes then maybe Battle Rager? Wild Magic?), and Ancestral Guardian.

Bard: Lore, Valor/Swords, Glamour, Whispers (knowledgeable, warrior, pretty, and conniving)

Cleric: Life, Death (or War), Order, and Trickery. Could be a lot of others but I expect 2 sets of opposing pairs.

Druid: Moon, Land, Shepherd (probably reworked into a pet subclass considering the frustration summoning causes for a lot of tables), Stars or something new (Elemenalist?)

Fighter: Champion, Battle Master, Eldritch Knight, Banerette (probably spelled that wrong) or Samurai.

Monk: Open Hand, Shadow, 4 Elements (hopefully substantially better than the 5e incarnation), and Kensei.

Paladin: Devotion, Ancients, Vengeance, and Conquest or Watcher.

Ranger: Hunter, Beastmaster, Gloomstalker, Fey Wanderer

Rogue: Thief, Swashbuckler, Arcane Trickster, and either Mastermind or Assassin

Sorcerer: Draconic, Wild, Divine Soul, and something new (maybe Primal?)

Warlock: Fiend, Fey, Great Old One, Hexblade or Deep

Wizard: Evoker, Necromancer, Beguiler (blend of Enchantment and Illusion) and Scribes

[paladinn]

I think Scribes is the closest to a generalist from a mechanical perspective

Not a big fan. "Generalist" shouldn't equate to "bookish librarian." And a lot of the class abilities are just.. weird.

I actually came up with a generalist "school"; but it would have been good to see a good "official" option.

[Rukelnikov]

Not a big fan. "Generalist" shouldn't equate to "bookish librarian." And a lot of the class abilities are just.. weird.

I actually came up with a generalist "school"; but it would have been good to see a good "official" option.

I agree that the flavor stops being generalist from the moment the spellbook has a mind of its own, but that's why I said from a mechanical perspective.

You copy spells a bit faster, you get a tiny improvement to your ritual caster ability, you get more flexibility in damage types, a familiar like minion that's overt but nearly invulnerable, which you can also use to change the cast point of your spells, and can still have your regular familiar, an extra "2nd level" spell slot. I don't think its particularly powerful* or interesting in its design, but it is pretty generalist in the sense that the playstyle of a subclassless wizard and a Scribes Wizard don't differ much, few of its features are going to change your gameplay, the most notable one is probably casting from another position, which is limited to pb/day, and after that its changing damage type, outside of some specific build level combos, changing damage type is not likely to make you change playstyle.

*It can do some very powerful specific things, but I mean in general.

[Psyren]

I think Scribes is the closest to a generalist from a mechanical perspective

I concur. The thing that distinguishes the wizard as a class the most is the concept of "book" and no subclass focuses on that aspect more than Scribes.

[Kane0]

Hmm.

Barbarian: Berserker, Ancestral, Beast, Storm
Bard: Lore, Swords, Spirits, Glamour
Cleric: Life, War, Knowledge, Trickery
Druid: Moon, Land, Stars, Shepherd
Fighter: Champion, Battlemaster, Rune Knight, Warlord
Monk: Open Hand, Four Elements, Mercy, Shadow
Paladin: Devotion, Vengeance, Glory, Crown
Ranger: Hunter, Beastmaster, Swarmkeeper, Fey Wanderer
Rogue: Thief, Assassin, Mastermind, Swashbuckler
Sorcerer: Dragon, Shadow, Divine, Lunar
Warlock: Fiend, Fey, Genie, Undead
Wizard: Evocation, Conjuration, Enchantment, Necromancy