Building a Character to Fill Lots of Roles

[HalfQuart]

I'm looking to build a new character for a 3.5 campaign refresh that is starting soon, but am having a hard time finding a build that fits the things I want to cover, but is still mechanically sound. Overall party optimization is rather low, so I don't need anything super strong (essentially Tier 3-4), although at this point I have no idea what anyone else is going to play.

We usually start at level 3 or 4, so it needs to be viable from there up to around 15. Pretty much all non-setting-specific books are allowed, although no Dragon magazine content. Druids don't exist, and Clerics are busted it ways that make them unplayable in my opinion. Specific items are hard to come by (there are no magic shops), so I can't really count on anything after character creation. A large portion of enemies with this DM are undead or constructs or otherwise immune to crits/sneak attack, so the value of those are depreciated. Not sure if favored class penalties will apply, so need to keep that in mind.

I like playing skillful, socially adept, and support characters. I'd like to make a character that covers a bunch of different roles, but still is effective.

Some of the roles I'd like to cover are:

Social skills; priority in order is Diplomacy, Gather Info, Bluff, Intimidate
Wilderness skills: Survival, Know Nature, ideally with Track
Traps: Trapfinding, Disable Device, Search
Melee capable - not totally suck in melee combat
Perception: Spot and/or Listen
Darkvision
Healing capability - not a heal bot, but at least be able to use a wand
I hate playing humans. So boring, even if they are usually mechanically best.
My previously played characters in this campaign were Psychic Warrior Spiked Chain Tripper, Elf Generalist Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus (which I super loved), and Wildshape Ranger/MoMF (I hated keeping track of all the different forms), so something different than those.


I've toyed with a few options:


Savage Bard - seems like the best fit, although doesn't provide trapfinding. Maybe dip into Rogue or Beguiler or Trap Expert Ranger. Melee isn't great, though. Maybe improved with Snowflake Wardance. Probably would need to go Dex-based, otherwise AC will suck with just light armor, and a bit too MAD to have both Dex and Str high, so Power Attack probably won't fit. Ranger would give martial weapon proficiencies to actually be able to do something with SWD. Darkvision is tricky; Dwarf and Whisper Gnome -2 Cha (or maybe Dex with Desert/Dream/Gold Dwarf) is pretty painful. Maybe Goliath and dip into Dawn Caller? Underfolk, although Light Sensitivity sucks. Maybe Deep Halfling or (Dragonwrought?) Desert Kobold. Those two seem best. If Favored Class isn't enforced, maybe Beguiler 1/Savage Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 5. If FC is enforced I'd have to start with Rogue 1. This does everything pretty well except for melee-capable, which is a little shaky.
Rogue with Penetrating Strike. Wilderness Rogue kind of sucks. Maybe Changeling Rogue for the social skills buff, but that gives up trapfinding. Could dip in Scout or Trap Expert Ranger to get it back. If dipping Scout could conceivably go all the way to Scout 3 for Swift Ambusher, but that seems like a waste. Ranger is probably a better fit to get +1 BAB with essentially the same skills, although Speak Language on Scout is kind of handy. Would give up Track for traps; maybe take it with a regular feat if I really need it. Ranger can also use CLW wands, which isn't optimal but is something. Could do Able Learner, but will probably have enough skill points that it doesn't matter. If doing Ranger, maybe go to Ranger 2 for TWF. So maybe Changeling Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Rogue+X/???. This hit everything more or less except for Darkvision.
Rogue as above, but without Changeling. Maybe Whisper Gnome with the Apprentice (Woodsman) feat to get Survival and Know (Nature). The fluff of Apprentice might be annoying to deal with until 5th level, but this gets us everything except for Healing without multiclassing. Eventually can UMD I guess, but that isn't really reliable for a while when starting at 3rd level.
Crusader something - Maybe Dwarf for Darkvision, could also then go into Deepstone Sentinel, although DS's signature ability Mountain Fortress Stance seems kind of lame since it also affects allies. Deepwarden would be pretty great, but the skill requirements would be hard to meet without Ranger or some other class. Maybe Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Crusader 1/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +X/???. That gets Diplomacy from Crusader. Some Spot/Listen, Darkvision, some healing from Crusader and Ranger wands. Certainly strong melee. I guess for Trapfinding would have to do the Trap Expert Ranger again; Deepwarden gives Track, so that's nice. Strength-based TWF (maybe Greatsword and Armor Spikes) with Thicket of Blades, probably Pounce. Kind of a weird build; light armor would make AC suck until Deepwarden comes on at 7th level, but might still be fun. Could skip Ranger 2 and ditch TWF; then can at least wear medium armor. If no FC could do Barbarian 3 and trade Trap Sense for something else. Otherwise maybe Fighter for an extra feat, Maybe even Fighter 2 for feat or Dungeon Crasher. I'm not going to play a tripper, as I did that already, so maybe Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Crusader 1/Deepwarden 2/???. I'd have to see how the skill points would add up. Not sure where to go after that. Maybe Soldier of Light (3.0, but probably ok) and then into Ruby Knight Vindicator (diety requirement stuff can be changed)? My DM will probably throw a book if I take 7 classes before 10th level, but whatever.
Factotum - "build that can do anything" just screams Factotum, but I don't really like the inspiration mechanic. Maybe I just need to get over it and try it out.


So... what do you think? Any combos I haven't thought of? Any of these that seem really good/bad (relative to the tier level, of course)?

[Rebel7284]

Options:

- Druid: the class that can truly do everything. Human+Nymph's kiss if an option if you want more skill points (but not required). Planar Touchstone[Catalogues of enlightenment]->Kobold Domain gives you trapfinding. Urban Druid is an option if you want something less nature-focused. Druid drops off in power slightly once 9th level spells come online compared to other casters (barring shapechange abuse, but that breaks the game for everyone), but you stop before then. Likely your best option TBH.

- Nothing wrong with trying Factotum, especially if Font of Inspiration is available. It's not amazing or anything, but it certainly IS flexible.

- You can enter Chameleon for tons of flexibility. Lots of entry methods that I have seen (Incarnate, etc) that add their own suites of abilities, but access to ALL arcane and divine spells is nifty with trapsmith spells and summon giants and such.

[HalfQuart]

Unfortunately Druids don't exist in this world, so I can't do that. I think I could play something Druid-like, like Spirit Shaman which uses the Druid Spell list. I already played a Wildshape Ranger, and that was ok. I've never actually heard of anyone playing a Spirt Shaman, so not sure how it works mechanically, but it seems like a Druid without wild shape and an animal companion. The Raise Dead thing is kind of cool I guess. I didn't really enjoy the Wildshape Ranger -- too much paperwork dealing with the different forms -- so would kind of like Spirit Shaman's lack of that class feature. But it doesn't seem like it really makes up for it in other ways. It does have a lot of the skills I want, although not trapfinding, so I'd need something else there, although it would suck to lose caster levels, since it is primarily a casting class.

Planar Touchstone trick won't work. One of the (several) problems with Clerics are that there are no domains.

I think Font of Inspiration would be allowed. Is it controversial?

[Zarvistic]

What about a scout/mystic ranger with swift hunter? Will need a good tumble for 10 feet steps or something similiar later on but that should be ok.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Personally, I like factotum 1 or 3/totemist 2/shaper psion 5/3.5 constructor (https://web.archive.org/web/20151001000000*/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) 9/unarmed swordsage 2. The orders of the levels don't matter much (except factotum 1), but with enough ML boosts and Able Learner, you have a really good Int-based skill monkey and a decently powerful manifester (using the psionic open chakra power to bind the phase cloak soulmeld). Especially good if you spend a few gp on manifestings of psychic chirurgery to learn higher level powers you want. Of course, focusing on astral construct fairly heavily along with some other low level powers (such as psionic minor creation, touchsight, and time hop) means you only really need some low level powers and lots of manifester levels to get it to work well.

Any holes in the above (such as if you only take factotum 1) should be filled in with initiator levels for some utility and movement maneuvers and stances. Of course, adding +Int to your attack rolls, making attacks as touch attacks, going for a hit-and-run build, taking metamorphosis and other buff spells from psychic chirurgery and using astral constructs and your psicrystal as supplementary melee monsters could help you a lot with filling more martial-oriented roles.

[Bonzai]

Incarnates are also flexible and can change thier rolls daily, or even on the fly.

[Paragon]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Changeling Rogue sub levels : most skill points in the game with the most versatile social ability in game and qualifies for Chameleon which is the epitome of "I can do anything".

You also have nice options like Penetrating Strike, the Martial Rogue (trade SA for bonuses) etc.

That would be my go to.

[Anthrowhale]

Deep Halfling Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Rogue[Penetrating Strike] 2 picking up Nymph's Kiss at level 1 and Craven at level 3 with a good Dex, Int, and Cha.

Going through the list:

Social skills: Rogue.
Wilderness skills: Ranger. You can leverage the PHB II retraining rules to 'top up' a wilderness skill each level that you don't take Ranger.
Traps: Rogue.
Melee capable: Craven + Penetrating Strike make you substantially dangerous. Use a Feycraft light weapon to leverage your Dex to hit.
Perception: Rogue+Ranger
Darkvision: Deep Halfling.
Healing capability: Ranger+Wand

You want at least 9 skills, which implies at least Int 12 + Nymph's Kiss for sufficient skill points over these levels. Future levels need to mostly 8+Int to keep up, although you could drop to 6+Int if you have an Int of 16.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Changeling Rogue sub levels : most skill points in the game with the most versatile social ability in game and qualifies for Chameleon which is the epitome of "I can do anything".

You also have nice options like Penetrating Strike, the Martial Rogue (trade SA for bonuses) etc.

That would be my go to.This actually goes with my suggested build quite well. Changelings are half-human and half-doppelganger, so Able Learner is on the table, and the number of skill points you gain at level 1 (and the options provided by potential sneak attack) are quite nice for a build that can get lots of natural attacks and has its own flanking buddies. Plenty of damage to be dealt if done right, and the build can even make its own plant-based poisons via psionic minor creation, which both psicrystals and astral constructs are immune to (and can be coated in).

Note that you'll still want to keep levels in factotum for all skills as class skills and the massive Int synergy. Just go sparingly on the feats for grabbing inspiration points, since you can use those feats for other stuff.

Of course, you can purchase feats easily (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts), and can swap them out with the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, so...

[HalfQuart]

Thanks for the suggestions. I did actually propose Changeling Rogue/Ranger in my OP post, #2. It's kind of rambling, so I can see how you missed it. I think that one could be really fun; it would really excel at the social skills -- being able to take 10 on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks is pretty great.

I unfortunately can't take Craven, since it is from a Forgotten Realms book, and all setting-specific books are banned.
Mystic Ranger is from Dragon, so I can't take that either.

I probably can't rely on Feycraft light weapons being available. They're more than I can afford with starting gold at 3rd or 4th level; we start with WBL, with no single item more than 25% of the total amount. So at 4th level that is 1,350gp. And our DM is really stingy about finding specific items. It might be possible since they aren't inherently magical, or maybe I could do a quest or something, but building a character around it would be problematic.

Martial Rogue is an interesting idea. SA is so rarely applicable with this DM that even with Penetrating Strike is feels like the class is really limited.

I've never played an Incarnate or Totemist. I don't think anyone at our table has ever played anything out of Magic of Incarnum, even though it isn't on the ban list. Might be worth digging into. Thanks for the suggestions.

Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle is never going to come into play -- we stop playing at level 15 (DM preference). And specific items are very hard to get and can't be freely purchased.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're Good-aligned, take Ancestral Relic for any item you really want, then sacrifice stuff you couldn't or wouldn't sell anyway -- like cursed items, or evil altars, or even buildings you've cleared out and have no use for. Carry a portable altar around with you, then sit on top of the church of your rival god and sacrifice the building.

So if you want a psychoactive skin of proteus but can't craft one yourself, be on the lookout for an item you can use (and won't lose and can't be stolen), then add metamorphosis at-will onto it, or just look for a cheaper psychoactive skin (such as the psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor) and use the item creation rules in the MIC to add the proteus skin's effect onto it as you go. Maybe see if you can get an at-will ML 3 alter self effect to add to it, which you gradually increase in power until it becomes ML 7 metamorphosis (and then ML 8, 9, 10, etc).

You could also take Item Familiar, or even Landlord, if your magic item can count as a stronghold. (Yes, turning your psychoactive skin of proteus into a building/stronghold is eminently possible.)

[Anthrowhale]

I unfortunately can't take Craven, since it is from a Forgotten Realms book, and all setting-specific books are banned.

Oops, I missed that.

You seem overconstrained then. You'll need a high skill class with a decent Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha as well as (implicitly) a decent Con since high skill classes are low on hit points. And, of course, you want to do some damage in melee against undead.

If you relax a constraint or two, there are of course solutions. If you were to order everything you want, what would that be? Or alternatively, if you were to put a weighting on each thing what would the weights be?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can you take options in setting-specific books for races that exist outside of setting-specific books? Like changeling options (feats and class ACFs) that are in Eberron books, such as the changeling wizard racial substitution levels, or the changeling rogue ones?

Changelings exist outside of Eberron, but all their stuff resides in Eberron books.

[HalfQuart]

Oh, that's a good point, MaxiDuRaritry. I think the Changeling Rogue ACF would be banned. So sad.

I think if I were to rank the priorities I would order them like this:

Social skills
Melee-capable
Perception
Traps
Darkvision
Wilderness skills
Healing capability


Melee-capable is 2nd on my list, but that doesn't mean the character has to be totally awesome in melee combat, just not suck. I don't want to play a primarily ranged character, which I think Scout/Swift Tracker would lead to.

[Anthrowhale]

I think if I were to rank the priorities I would order them like this:

Social skills
Melee-capable
Perception
Traps
Darkvision
Wilderness skills
Healing capability


The top 4 all say 'rogue' and the 5th is just a choice of race of which there are many possibilities. Only plausible alternatives I see are Dragon Compendium classes (Savant or Mountebank) which are more anemic on the damage.

Maybe something like Savage Progression Aasimar (https://web.archive.org/web/20190319033128/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 2(with penetrating strike)? Savage progression Aasimar gives Cha+2, spot/listen+2, and darkvision. Rogue 1 picks up the top 4. Ranger 1 picks up the bottom 2 if you can get a wand of cure light wounds. The next 2 levels of rogue give you penetrating strike so you can damage the undead in melee. You aren't dominant in melee, but you can deal some damage. After that, more levels in Rogue keep your damage up although an extra level in Ranger gives you a helpful two-weapon fighting.

I'm not sure about feats.

Incidentally, I believe that Sense Motive is pretty useful for social skills as well.

[Bucky]

What exactly is the problem with clerics in this campaign, aside from lack of domains? Can you ACF around the domain nerf? Are the other changes so crippling that the basic Cleric casting won't pull its own weight? Is something like an Archivist or a UA Generic Spellcaster similarly affected?

Is minionmancy on the table? If so, you can offload your scouting, trapfinding, survival and some of the melee combat.

[HalfQuart]

I think the biggest issue with Clerics is that they have very restrictive spell lists, customized by deity. (All the deities are homebrew.) The upside is that occasionally spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list will show up on a Cleric list, but it sucks being limited to a really small list to choose from, all based on themes from the "domains" of the deity. I say "domains", but there are no actual domains in the mechanical sense, just like X deity is the god of Law, Justice, and Punishment, or whatever, so there will be bunch of spells available related to those things. It might be possible to convince the DM to add other spells along those themes that aren't on the list, but it's a case by case basis and was super painful to watch another player deal with previously, and I don't want to deal with it myself. It is a bit unclear if other divine casters are similarly constrained, but I suspect not. Certainly Paladin and Ranger spellcasting hasn't been restricted, but I don't think anyone has tried to play like a Favored Soul or anything.

Someone played and Archivist and it didn't have explicit restrictions, but it did kind of suck because there is very limited access to magic items and the Archivist had a really hard time finding scrolls to learn new spells. It really limited their flexibility and power. It is interesting how a few changes really knock a couple Tier 1 classes down a peg or two.

I don't think Minionmancy would be acceptable. Leadership is banned; I suspect Thrallherd and other stuff would likewise be banned, although it hasn't explicitly been brought up.

Interesting observation about my priorities and rogue. I do like playing rogues a lot.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Even non-changeling rogues gain 8 skill points per level and x4 at 1st, so a single level dip is still quite good.

How about unarmed swordsage at level 1? (6+Int)x6 skill points is...nice. Very nice.

[Troacctid]

Oh, that's a good point, MaxiDuRaritry. I think the Changeling Rogue ACF would be banned. So sad.

I think if I were to rank the priorities I would order them like this:

Social skills
Melee-capable
Perception
Traps
Darkvision
Wilderness skills
Healing capability


Melee-capable is 2nd on my list, but that doesn't mean the character has to be totally awesome in melee combat, just not suck. I don't want to play a primarily ranged character, which I think Scout/Swift Tracker would lead to.
I would probably go with a bardsader. Crusader gives you the oomph that you need to be good in melee, and bard is good at everything else. Here's my tentative feat progression.

1. Nymph's Kiss. So good on a face build. Take it early to maximize the bonus skill points.
3. Obtain Familiar. Familiars are crazy awesome in skill-heavy builds because they share all your skills. Use them for aid another, double-checking, and action economy.
6. Song of the White Raven. A core feat for bardsaders.
9. Celestial Familiar. Having a minor celestial as your familiar will drastically improve your scouting, trapfinding, perception, and combat abilities, no matter which good alignment you are. At-will Detect Magic is practically as good for trapfinding as the trapfinding ability itself.

Bard 4/Crusader 1 is a good stock base because it gives you access to 2nd-level maneuvers right away. Then you can take more bard levels before taking crusader again to get 3rd-level maneuvers. It's worth considering trading away bardic knowledge for bardic knack or lore song; I personally like all three, but with what you're going for, the latter two have some real merits.

If favored class rules are in play, you'd need Bard or Any as a favored class. Personally, I would just be a human, because these sorts of builds really love bonus feats, like seriously, they want so many feats. But if you aren't into humans, you could do a lot worse than half-elf with the half-elf bard substitution level. Or, if you can convince your DM to let crusader count as paladin for favored class, the Savage Progression version of the aasimar is really strong.

I recommend biting the bullet and putting points in Strength. Trying to switch primary stats is going to chew up too many feat slots to be worth it. Just use Wisdom as your dump stat, it'll be fine.

[rel]

How about a wildshape ranger with a dip into rogue or similar + able learner for the trapfinding and social skills.
6 + int skill points with two classes of effective class skills, melee, darkvision and other utility from the shapechanging, healing from your Ranger spells and possibly from shapeshifts.

You can tune the power level a fair bit just through spell and form selection, and go into things like MoMF or warshaper if you need extra oomph.

EDIT

Sorry, just noticed you already tried wildshape ranger and didn't like it.

Maybe a shake and bake wizard / rogue gish going into unseen seer?
That will give you the skill coverage and trap finding.
sneak attack immunity can be mitigated via the penetrating strike ACF or spells like grave strike.
Spells can grant darkvision and a lot of extra utility for support, survival or anything else you feel like.
Healing will be an issue, but you could always take arcane disciple and carry a wand, bring in summons with healing, grab one of the esoteric spells that grant wizards healing, etc.

[bekeleven]

Beguilers can't heal but they can cover a lot of roles in a party. A socially oriented spell list, trapfinding, skills, etc. Note that illusion spells are great against mindless enemies where enchantments aren't, so beguilers have a keyhole weaknesses against mind-immune intelligent enemies, but they're still high 3 and able to contribute.

Not much healing, though, I'm afraid.

[loky1109]

Beguilers can't heal but they can cover a lot of roles in a party. A socially oriented spell list, trapfinding, skills, etc. Note that illusion spells are great against mindless enemies where enchantments aren't, so beguilers have a keyhole weaknesses against mind-immune intelligent enemies, but they're still high 3 and able to contribute.

Not much healing, though, I'm afraid.
Arcane Disciple (Healing).

[Anthrowhale]

On the armor side, Mithril Chain Shirt + masterwork Dastana + masterwork Chahar-Aina has AC 6, max dex 6, armor check penalty 0, weight 27.5lbs and costs 1100+175+225=1500 gp. It's expensive, but within budget and as good as you can probably afford now unless you want to add a +1 armor enhancement. It also has lots of enchantment headroom since you have 3 enchantable items, and you have headroom for dexterity increases as well should those become available.

In terms of feats, I'd second Nymph's Kiss. I also like carrying around a disposable reach weapon + combat reflexes on a high dex build since "enemies rush you" is a common and fairly dangerous circumstance where smacking each one as they come in reach takes the edge off. After that, you drop the reach weapon and pull out a non reach weapon as a move action. Or, you take a 5' step back and just use the reach weapons which is a good dynamic for someone not a dedicated front-liner. Combat Reflexes also sets you up to take Double Team if you can convince another member of the party to take it.

If you have access to flaws, using them for an extra couple feats is super-helpful. Wild Cohort (which might buddy with you on double team) and Weapon Finesse might be good choices.

[Maat Mons]

As has been noted, Able Learner really opens up your multiclassing options. If you don’t want to play a human, you could ask your DM about the variant in the sidebar on page 150 (or Races of Destiny, if that was unclear). That could allow certain non-human races to gain the feat. Without that variant, you’d need the Human Heritage feat, and thus flaws. Does your DM allow flaws?

Since you mentioned wanting Darkvision, the human-descended races I can think of that get it are (lesser) Planetouched, Half-Drow (certain variants), Underfolk, Daelkyr Half-Blood, Necropolitan, Dragonborn, Half-Orc, and Hellbred.

Alternately, some classes that can get you Darkvision are Shadow Dancer, Warlock, or Binder, and some feats are Deepvision, Bind Vestige, or Planar Touchstone.

The one-level dip in Ranger, as mentioned, gets you Trapfinding, martial weapon proficiency, the ability to use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, and a decent chassis. I’d consider it a strong contender.

If you have a good enough Int score, you can probably manage fine on a 4+Int skill point class. Sanctified Mind, Ruby Knight Vindicator, and Illithid Slayer could all work within your restrictions. Daggerspell Mage, Shadowbane Stalker, Seeker of the Misty Isle, Unseen Seer, Prestige Bard, and Elocator are all 6+Int PRCs, if that’s what you want.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Any living character (and many that are not) can be human-descended and qualify for Human Heritage, since crossbreeding between humans, dragons, outsiders, and other creatures is so prevalent. Even if a human can't breed directly with a creature, a half-dragon/half-human can do so. And since there's no limit to how far back the ancestor is in the familial line, and many traits are bred out over time (and traits tend to pop back up randomly later on, when the genetics recombine correctly), you don't even need human-like physical traits to still count for Human Heritage.

Basically, the racial qualification for Human Heritage (or Human-Blooded) are mainly fluff, so long as you can justify having a human in your ancestry (or are made from or by a human, in the case of undead or some constructs).

[lylsyly]

Social skills
Melee-capable
Perception
Traps
Darkvision
Wilderness skills
Healing capability

Race: Underfolk from RoD, No ability score adjustments, extra skill points as human, Darkvision. Do have light sensitivity which maybe you can talk to your DM about. Favored Class: Any

Rogue 1 Trapfinding, Disable Device and Search, Gives you a bump to your Social Skills.
Ranger 1 Track, Wild Empathy, Survival. A BAB & HD bump and Martial Weapons
Bard 2 Keeps up your social skills. has Cure spells on list
Crusader 1. BAB and HD bump Qualify for White Raven Tactics
Finish with Bard to keep up social skills since that is the 1st on your list.

[Maat Mons]

Light Sensitivity really isn’t an issue. Sundark Goggles (Races of the Dragon, p122) completely negate the penalty for 10 gp. Plus, sunglasses are cool.

[Anthrowhale]

As has been noted, Able Learner really opens up your multiclassing options.

My understanding is that the retraining rules in PHBII are allowed. If that's so, then you can keep 4 cross-class skills nearly (within 3) topped up at in-class rates enabling the use of many more races.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Light Sensitivity really isn’t an issue. Sundark Goggles (Races of the Dragon, p122) completely negate the penalty for 10 gp. Plus, sunglasses are cool.Or you could have the sundark goggles enhanced as a magic item, of course. Just spend the extra money to make them a masterwork tool of vision-based Perception checks (Search and Spot) so they count as masterwork, and you're golden.

[Vaern]

Light Sensitivity really isn’t an issue. Sundark Goggles (Races of the Dragon, p122) completely negate the penalty for 10 gp. Plus, sunglasses are cool.

And one might even try arguing that they do not occupy your character's magic item slot for lenses or goggles. When a character tries equipping multiple magic items to the same slot only the first one equipped will function; but, since sundark goggles are not magical, a magic item worn over top of them might still work.
Alternatively, it would be much less ridiculous and, in fact, entirely reasonable to have your face slot items custom-made to have smoked lenses that function as sundark goggles integrated directly into whatever magic glasses, goggles, or mask you want for your character.

[HalfQuart]

Bardsader is a really interesting idea, Troacctid. So you're saying Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +X? Is that a lot better than Bard 2/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X? I ask because if I'm playing from 3rd or 4th level, it seems like getting a bit of Crusader in there for when I start would be beneficial. I realize it means that all the maneuvers would be 1st level and not 1st and 2nd level, but is that worth delaying through 2 levels of play?

What would you recommend of stat spread with 32 point buy? Charisma seems a bit less essential than a traditional Bard build. Maybe something like 16, 14, 14, 12, 8, 14? If I go for Words of Creation I'll have to get that Int up a lot higher... something like 16, 10, 14, 14, 8, 15, and then put a level up point into Int at some point. I won't have the +5 Will save until ~8th level, so there is some time. That low a Dex seems perilous, especially in light armor. Maybe I'll need to take Battle Caster or something. I don't know if flaws are allowed; if so maybe I'll take Shaky to pick up Battle Caster.

I'm not sure that all is worth it for Words of Creation, although a lot of the other ways to boost IC are not available. If we start at 4th level instead of 3rd I can probably start with a Badge of Valor, and can use Inspirational Boost if I want to activate IC as a standard action rather than swift from Song of the White Raven. Otherwise the likelihood of getting a Badge of Valor is super slim. I could maybe use a Masterwork Horn (3.0), although I was hoping to use something that didn't require hands. I guess I could do 3 ranks in Perform Horn and more in something else. Song of the Heart is out because it is Eberron. Words of Creation will just apply to the level-based bonus, not to things like Badge of Valor or Inspirational Boost.

I'm thinking maybe just bite the bullet and play Human with Able Learner, do Trap Expert Ranger 1/Bard 1/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X. That hits everything except for Darkvision.

[OGDojo]

5.Factotum - "build that can do anything" just screams Factotum, but I don't really like the inspiration mechanic. Maybe I just need to get over it and try it out.

on factotums, i have built several (one of my favorite classes) i like it cuz you only need a high intelligence to get ALOT of things, there is even a feat called "Font of Inspiration" that gives you 1,+1 for every time you take it:

first time 1 point
2nd time 2 points for a total of 3
3rd time 3 points for a total of 6
4th time 4 points for a total of 10

so with 4 feats you basically gain all of the inspiration points you will need for a single combat, which if you take Flaws and exchange them for feats as well as be human (i know boring) at 1st level you have 4 feats so out of the gate your character can hold his own in combat and in normal play. my favorite things about the factotum are

Cunning Insight, which allows you to add Int to Attack roll for 1 point AND damage roll for an extra point
Cunning Knowledge, which allows you to add your int modifier to skill checks and you can apply it to several skills a day but only 1 skill check of that type per day, so like you could do Knowledge Engineering AND knowledge Geography but you cant do either of them twice in 1 day
Brains Over Brawn, This applies your Intelligence instead of str and dex to all skills that use str and dex. very useful in a lot of situations especially swimming and climbing.
and
Opportunistic Piety, Being an off healer is never terrible. and with the inspiration points to pull it out in combat and barely lose any melee or ranged capability is awesome.

there are a few others that i like too but these are the main ones. i like Cunning strike as it functions as their version of sneak attack so you can deal more damage. as well as Arcane Dilettante because being able to cast a spell in the middle of combat is super useful.

if your building it at higher levels and have access to Advanced Beastiary from PFSRD, there is a +1CR template called the Savant that works perfectly for the factotum

Savant gets some stat changes but the most notable is a +10 to int
it also gets 10 skills that it can take a 10 on in any situation, considering factotum treats all skills as trained being able to take a ten in them with the ability to add your int to them as well makes this ability very useful
i could gush about my builds all day but the factotum is, in my opinion the best character for jack of all trades. its also not a bad choice for new players that wanna see what their play style is. its perfect because its, Spend a point, do cool shiz, spend another point do something else, it will give the new player a lot of skills to choose from that can help nail down what things they like most about the game and how to build towards it.

[Troacctid]

Beguilers can't heal but they can cover a lot of roles in a party. A socially oriented spell list, trapfinding, skills, etc. Note that illusion spells are great against mindless enemies where enchantments aren't, so beguilers have a keyhole weaknesses against mind-immune intelligent enemies, but they're still high 3 and able to contribute.

Not much healing, though, I'm afraid.
Beguiler is great too, although it is currently ranked in tier 2, not tier 3.


Bardsader is a really interesting idea, Troacctid. So you're saying Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +X? Is that a lot better than Bard 2/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X? I ask because if I'm playing from 3rd or 4th level, it seems like getting a bit of Crusader in there for when I start would be beneficial. I realize it means that all the maneuvers would be 1st level and not 1st and 2nd level, but is that worth delaying through 2 levels of play?
You are correct that having it in there when you start, at level 3, would be beneficial. At level 4, it might be a wash, since at that point it causes you to miss 2nd level spells. And at level 5, the delayed version has a significant advantage.

The difference between a crusader with all 2nds and a crusader with all 1sts is pretty pronounced because crusader maneuvers are randomly selected each turn. Being guaranteed a stronger maneuver every time is pretty good. The earlier level is valid, but if you went that route, I would probably recommend warblade over crusader—or possibly a mix of both, with warblade early on and crusader later.

Either way, up to you. My go-to full build would be Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +1/Bard +1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage +9.


What would you recommend of stat spread with 32 point buy? Charisma seems a bit less essential than a traditional Bard build. Maybe something like 16, 14, 14, 12, 8, 14?
Charisma and Strength are primary stats, because you still need to be able to land your spells. At least 14 in each, and going up to 15 or 16 in either or both is reasonable. Con, Dex, and Int are secondary: Con for HP, Dex for AC and initiative, and Int for skill points (this is still a skill-focused build after all!). Wisdom is a dump stat. I'd take an inventory of the skills you want to max and figure out how much Int you need for it, then boost Int accordingly in your point buy. Once you've got your Str, Cha, and Int, divide the rest of the points up among Dex and Con according to your preference.

EDIT: Is this about right for skill priority?

Perform (required for bards)
Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive (social package)
Spot, Listen, Search (perception package—a familiar will help with this)
Search, Disable Device (trapfinding package)
Survival (wilderness package)

That's 9 different skills, so 14 Int plus Nymph's Kiss should just about cover it.


If I go for Words of Creation I'll have to get that Int up a lot higher... something like 16, 10, 14, 14, 8, 15, and then put a level up point into Int at some point. I won't have the +5 Will save until ~8th level, so there is some time. That low a Dex seems perilous, especially in light armor. Maybe I'll need to take Battle Caster or something. I don't know if flaws are allowed; if so maybe I'll take Shaky to pick up Battle Caster.

I'm not sure that all is worth it for Words of Creation, although a lot of the other ways to boost IC are not available. If we start at 4th level instead of 3rd I can probably start with a Badge of Valor, and can use Inspirational Boost if I want to activate IC as a standard action rather than swift from Song of the White Raven. Otherwise the likelihood of getting a Badge of Valor is super slim. I could maybe use a Masterwork Horn (3.0), although I was hoping to use something that didn't require hands. I guess I could do 3 ranks in Perform Horn and more in something else. Song of the Heart is out because it is Eberron. Words of Creation will just apply to the level-based bonus, not to things like Badge of Valor or Inspirational Boost.
Don't stress too much about optimizing inspire courage. There aren't going to be great ways to make it work, and that's okay. Sometimes just being a swift action is enough. Just get a masterwork instrument for whatever bonus you like best (I'm a mandolin gal myself), and let your DM know that the badge and vest are on your wishlist. Masterwork horn was updated to 3.5 in CAd though, so I wouldn't count on the 3.0 version being available unless you've pre-cleared it with your DM. If you do want to improve your bardic music, Dragonfire Inspiration is the feat you want (with a masterwork mandolin to boost it). There's also a feat in Dragon Magazine that's like Practiced Spellcaster for bardic music, but you don't have access to that. Another good option if flaws are allowed is Bind Vestige + Practiced Binder, which gives you skill mastery in Bluff and Diplomacy and lets you make a rushed Diplomacy check as a standard action.

Battle Caster isn't worth it compared to just wearing mithral. If you go dragonblood (e.g. forestlord or deepwyrm half-elf, dragonborn elf, or silverbrow human), you could go for dragonscale husk if you want; it's similar to medium armor and has no ASF.


That hits everything except for Darkvision.
For the record, I think low-light vision is better than darkvision. You're always going to have a light source for the rest of the party anyway, and once you do, low-light vision doubling the effective radius of a lantern or sunrod should give you 120 feet of visual range (or 80, for a continual flame or light spell) compared to darkvision's 60. If you take Obtain Familiar, you can have your familiar hold the light source, and you won't have to worry about having a free hand. And if you take Celestial Familiar, your familiar is a light source! Darkvision can be useful if you're trying to be stealthy, but I'd be astonished if you had enough skill points for Hide and Move Silently after fulfilling your other priorities.

If you really want darkvision, though, then you should be a Savage Progression aasimar without the racial level. Great race for bards. https://web.archive.org/web/20201112010825/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a


I'm thinking maybe just bite the bullet and play Human with Able Learner, do Trap Expert Ranger 1/Bard 1/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X.
Bard is best when you have a lot of it, and crusader only needs a light sprinkling to be good, so this wouldn't be my preferred progression. If you're going the Able Learner route, I'd probably just do a Rogue/Swordsage mix, and throw in ranger somewhere if you want Track and/or TWF, favored classes permitting.

[HunterOfJello]

Bardsader is a really interesting idea, Troacctid. So you're saying Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard +2/Crusader +X? Is that a lot better than Bard 2/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X? I ask because if I'm playing from 3rd or 4th level, it seems like getting a bit of Crusader in there for when I start would be beneficial. I realize it means that all the maneuvers would be 1st level and not 1st and 2nd level, but is that worth delaying through 2 levels of play?

What would you recommend of stat spread with 32 point buy? Charisma seems a bit less essential than a traditional Bard build. Maybe something like 16, 14, 14, 12, 8, 14? If I go for Words of Creation I'll have to get that Int up a lot higher... something like 16, 10, 14, 14, 8, 15, and then put a level up point into Int at some point. I won't have the +5 Will save until ~8th level, so there is some time. That low a Dex seems perilous, especially in light armor. Maybe I'll need to take Battle Caster or something. I don't know if flaws are allowed; if so maybe I'll take Shaky to pick up Battle Caster.

I'm not sure that all is worth it for Words of Creation, although a lot of the other ways to boost IC are not available. If we start at 4th level instead of 3rd I can probably start with a Badge of Valor, and can use Inspirational Boost if I want to activate IC as a standard action rather than swift from Song of the White Raven. Otherwise the likelihood of getting a Badge of Valor is super slim. I could maybe use a Masterwork Horn (3.0), although I was hoping to use something that didn't require hands. I guess I could do 3 ranks in Perform Horn and more in something else. Song of the Heart is out because it is Eberron. Words of Creation will just apply to the level-based bonus, not to things like Badge of Valor or Inspirational Boost.

I'm thinking maybe just bite the bullet and play Human with Able Learner, do Trap Expert Ranger 1/Bard 1/Crusader 1/Bard +4/Crusader +X. That hits everything except for Darkvision.

Crusader has some maneuvers that use their shield. If you wanted to use those, Divine Bard lets you use heavy armor and a shield without penalty, but you'd need 12 or 13 Wisdom to qualify to cast your spells (still uses Cha for DCs and bonus spells). Obv you can do without the shield maneuvers if you'd like.

Darkvision is hard to grab outside of races, templates, or an item.

[Troacctid]

Darkvision is hard to grab outside of races, templates, or an item.
It's actually pretty easy. You can just spend a feat on it. There are over half a dozen feats in the allowed sources that will do it. Not that feats are cheap, but still.

- Bind Vestige
- Shape Soulmeld (Basilisk Mask)
- Touchstone (The Blinding Tower)
- Sunlight Eyes
- Umbral Shroud
- Inhuman Vision
- Devil's Sight
- Draconic Senses

If you expand it into Dragon Magazine and setting-specific books, the list gets longer.

[Maat Mons]

Note that Inhuman Vision and Devil’s Sight each have a prerequisite feat, and Draconic Senses requires either being a dragonblooded race or spending a feat to get the subtype.

[HalfQuart]

Thanks for all the suggestions -- it certainly gave me a lot to think about! :-)

[Nihilarian]

Bard is the classic jack of all trades. If you're not satisfied with their melee abilities there are methods to improve that. Dragonfire Inspiration optimization, Snowflake Wardance, Knowledge Devotion, Swiftblade. You'll need to dip or spend feats to get trapfinding, and you could see if your DM allows the unerratad version of Healing Hymn. Still, a good choice

[Soranar]

Factotum works very well with mounted combat (you can add your INT to damage and it's multiplied).

As for a mount, wild cohort can get you a camel (surprisingly strong mount) for a medium rider or a riding dog for a small one. Just give the camel armor spikes on his barding and he's ready to go (even with -4 to hit it's worth it to get full STR bonus to damage). Eventually you can get it a mouthpick weapon (lord of madness, automatically proficient with it)

A Killoren gives you a smite attack that works against undead and constructs and being a fey can be fun when using alter self and polymorph.

I don't actually recommend taking font of inspiration: regular feats will serve you just as well. Power attack, knowledge devotion and all the ride feats to get spirited charge. You'll feel like a paladin without all the roleplay requirements and your turn undead will probably be stronger.

[Clause]

You can do a human factotun 5/ jordainvizier5/ exemplar(or nigthsong infiltrator)10


On other way, can be an half elf or elf archivist 5/seeker of the mistyisland 7/shadowbane stalker 8