What are your favourite build tricks?

[pabelfly]

So, what are everyone's favourite build tricks? The races you always use, the dips you regularly take, the alternate class features that you always pick, the feat and spell combinations that you keep coming back to, the prestige class you always find yourself entering for a single level or two, and so forth?

Here are some of mine to start with:

Any Sorcerer I play or build is a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. I care far more about having the equivalent of a d12 of HP with ninth-level casting over extra spells and extra spell slots. I'll also always trade the familiar for the Metamagic Specialist ACF, casting metamagicked spells without increasing casting time is great.
All mundane martials have one level of Barbarian with Pounce + Extra Rage feat. I'll always do Whirling Frenzy over Rage for two-handed weapon builds, and always do Ferocity over Rage for multiweapon fighting builds.
Most martial characters have Fighter levels and the Resolute ACF to boost will saves
If I can't spare Fighter levels for a martial character, I'll often go with a Desert or Frostblood Orcs for the +4 to STR and the free Endurance bonus feat so I can take Steadfast Determination to dump WIS as a stat while boosting my will save.
If I have high skill points, I'll regularly use Education + Knowledge Devotion + Collector of Stories skill trick to be the party knowledge bank and boost my damage and accuracy at the same time


So what are everyone else's favourite build tricks?

[Zombulian]

Not a trick per se but I put Fell Conspiracy on every build I can fit it on. Same goes for Initiate of Olidammara.

If there’s any psionics in the build (and sometimes even if I’m just throwing Hidden Talent in there) I love taking Call Item as a level 1 power. You can pull some zany tricks with it, but also it can function just fine as an alchemical substance dispenser.

Much more cheesy and less used, I like to drop a single level of Wizard (I think sorcerer works as well) with Beleaguered Spellcaster into a caster build. Since the ability keys off of spellcaster level and not caster level, you can trigger the free metamagic effect by taking 3 damage your entire adventuring career.

[Fero]

I find that many of my non-caster builds start with Ranger for the BaB and skill points. I often take favored enemy: arcane along with the Nemesis feat for a potent detection system.

Many of my non-caster builds end with two or three martial adept classes to take advantage of how initiator level is calculated.

Most of my casters take Extend spell so I can leave long duration buffs on all day long. Craft Wonderous is also amazing and opens almost unlimited possibilities.

[SimonMoon6]

When I'm designing Pathfinder characters, I almost always try to fit in a bloodline somewhere. Whether it's taking the Eldritch Heritage feats or using Variant Multi-Classing (Sorcerer), I feel like I need a little something extra. (This can be hard with a feat-intensive build so it doesn't always work out, but I always try to see if it's possible.) Even a totally mundane class can now have superpowers too! (The problem is that mundane classes tend to need a lot of feats to make up for their shortcomings, so this doesn't always work.)

One of the bloodlines I reach for the most often when designing a spellcaster is the Shapechanger bloodline. While Pathfinder did try very hard to nerf all the polymorph spells by giving them small benefits (with most spells given a strict boundary of what benefits they can give you with the only exception being natural attacks which are left to be absolutely anything that the original creature has) as well as a short duration, that short duration can be completely overwritten by the Shapechanger bloodline which makes it so that you can stay in your desired form for hours at a time, long enough to fill out the adventuring day. This bloodline totally breaks one of the hard boundaries (short durations for polymorph spells) that Pathfinder set up and I love it.

[Saintheart]

If you're building a rogue, you're always taking Craven.

If you're building a summoning druid at low to mid levels, you're taking Greenbound Summoning.

Speaking as a DM, if I'm building low end monsters, Shadow Creature is one of my favourite go-tos for survivability for a +1 to CR. Total concealment anywhere except full daylight is glorious.

Also speaking as a DM, advancing HD to just before the CR goes up by 1 for the creature's type gives some surprising benefits in the right circumstances. You can usually pick up a feat - or two - as well as good BAB increases, well past what you'd get for adding a Fighter level to it.

Also also speaking as a DM, on dragons, especially on red dragons, I love Final Strike. There's nothing like a post-death nuke to get some payback for a Shivering Touch.

And lastly speaking as a DM, if I have a monster with lots of natural attacks, it's taking a level in Soul Eater.

[Vizzerdrix]

Every character gets shapesand and egg shell grenades.

Every wizard is a stronheart halfling with a gnome calculus. Just suck up the -4 to hit. Your aiming for touch so it won't matter.

[Zanos]

Grey Elf + Dragonborn for wizards to get -2 str/+2 int and dragonborn racials, plus the elf subtype to qualify for elven generalist.
Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought for full round access to your entire spellbook.

[Anthrowhale]

Hengeyokai[Sparrow] provides access to a Fine form with flight, a baseline AC of 22, and can actually do something with Surrogate Spellasting.

Wild Cohort[Riding Dog] is extremely effective at level 1.

Retraining rules are great. Applied to skills, they provide a weaker but often sufficient Able Learning for free.

Mithril Chain Shirt + masterwork Dastana + masterwork Chahar-Aina (possibly improved with high skill craftsmanship) is a great baseline armor.

[OGDojo]

i actually just talked with a couple friends about this a few days ago.

We agreed that taking martial class (from PFSRD path of war OR book of the 9 swords for D&D proper.) dips are very useful no matter what class you are originally as it gives you more than you would lose taking a level of anything else, even as full casters you can dip 3 levels into various classes without losing 9th level spells and gain some amazing abilities as a payoff.

my favorite build with this is Warder 1 level with the eternal guardian style and however many levels of Factotum that you want. the warder gives you a stance that your enemy treats all your threatened area as difficult terrain and you gain combat reflexes that uses your intelligence instead of your dex, also your armigers marks at level 2 decrease their ability to hit anyone but you within your threatened area. now add on a reach weapon like Kusari-gama to double your reach and a set of great reach bracers that you can activate as a swift action, your threatened area is now 30 feet. you can also add in the feats like
Stand Still, allows you to make an attack of opportunity to stop opponents before stepping into your threatened square.
Bodyguard, allows you to boost the AC of your adjacent ally
Clever Opportunist, Make an opportunity attack and trade places with your enemy
improved and greater attack of opportunity: (dragon Magazine 134 i believe) allows you to make additional attacks during your attacks of opportunity up to your normal attack total for BAB.
to keep yourself safe you can also do
Ptah's Cunning and Tefnut's Endurance (Both from egyptian adventures Hamanaptra (Sounds made up i know but its real)) to add your Int and Con modifiers to AC respectively
Thick Skinned and Thick Skulled (increased DR and gives you a headbutt attack but thats not important)
and with all of these i believe you can take another feat (unsure of the name but i know it exists, i have used it several times) and this feat basically maximizes your hitpoints retroactively. it treats all of your rolls for HP as if you rolled max.

[Inevitability]

Human Paragon shows up a surprising amount in my building, I feel.

Ordained Champion for quickened spontaneous Divine Power is a nice fix to BAB issues.

[Kurald Galain]

I like sneak attack but I dislike multiple rogue levels, so I often end up with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat.

Most of my builds include a level of monk or rogue (with one of their more bizarre archetypes) or bloodrager (for the first bloodline ability). Also, most of my non-caster (or gish) builds end up with either TWF, or monk flurry, or Magus spell combat; because multiple attacks are fun and good.

[Zanos]

Oh, another one that requires some goofy content but Fell Animate + Practical Metamagic + Forceful Magic lets you prepare a Fell Animate cantrip such as sonic snap in a 1st level slot 1/day. Having access to 4hd worth of zombies from level 1 is pretty nasty, especially if you can get dogs or wolves at level 2.

[Gorthawar]

I find myself dipping into cloistered cleric for a devotion feat or 2 a lot. And if I can get away with it I combine it with level of ordained champion. +4 will save and basically 4 feats for two levels are hard to pass for any martial character.

[H_H_F_F]

If I'm playing a traditional melee, I really like getting a die or two of sneak attack, and a viable way of activating it - and then taking staggering strike (CAdv). It's obviously limited, but it's a lot of fun.

[HunterOfJello]

cloistered cleric dip with careful domain choices for max feat gain
high bonus skill point class at level 1 for the x4 bonus (swordsage, rogue, etc.)
precocious apprentice feat for wizard multiclass
Outsider subtype for darkvision and marital weapon prof.


items that alter class limits/setup:
wand bracer (dungeonscape)
a few items from Arms & Equipment for skill checks
mithril armor (0% armor spell failure light armor, needs to be said)
wand of lesser vigor (cleric in a box)


useful things in general:
a few skill tricks
1 skill point in trained-only skills
gold dwarf (no -cha)
gray elf (+int)
magic-blooded template
forest gnome (bonus hide, pass without trace, speak with burrowing animals)
desert _____ (lots of good ones, esp Kobold)

[RNightstalker]

I like sneak attack but I dislike multiple rogue levels, so I often end up with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat.

Most of my builds include a level of monk or rogue (with one of their more bizarre archetypes) or bloodrager (for the first bloodline ability). Also, most of my non-caster (or gish) builds end up with either TWF, or monk flurry, or Magus spell combat; because multiple attacks are fun and good.

What's the source of Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat? My google-fu is failing me.

[Blue Jay]

Some items (not strictly build tricks, per se):

A custom item I frequently ask for is a quiver that functions as a use-activated item of bolt (a 1st-level psion/wilder power). It only costs 4000 gp (or 2000 gp, if you're willing to let it occupy your shoulders slot), and it makes unlimited +1 arrows. Technically, it would make 2d4 of them each time you "used" it, but if your DM is willing to allow it, I doubt they'd have a problem with you just making 1 arrow each time.

I've never tried to use this one, but I don't think there's technically anything stopping you from making an arrow into a single-use, use-activated spell item (50 gp for a 1st-level spell, and 750 gp for a fireball). I guess it may take some DM leniency to say the spell goes off at the end of the arrow's flight instead of the moment you release it. And there are all kinds of annoying ways to abuse "spell arrows" without some agreed-upon limitations. But it's kind of fun to think there might be a way to make any archer into an arcane archer.

[Saintheart]

Some items (not strictly build tricks, per se):

A custom item I frequently ask for is a quiver that functions as a use-activated item of bolt (a 1st-level psion/wilder power). It only costs 4000 gp (or 2000 gp, if you're willing to let it occupy your shoulders slot), and it makes unlimited +1 arrows. Technically, it would make 2d4 of them each time you "used" it, but if your DM is willing to allow it, I doubt they'd have a problem with you just making 1 arrow each time.

I've never tried to use this one, but I don't think there's technically anything stopping you from making an arrow into a single-use, use-activated spell item (50 gp for a 1st-level spell, and 750 gp for a fireball). I guess it may take some DM leniency to say the spell goes off at the end of the arrow's flight instead of the moment you release it. And there are all kinds of annoying ways to abuse "spell arrows" without some agreed-upon limitations. But it's kind of fun to think there might be a way to make any archer into an arcane archer.

Arrow of Biting is a thing, so there are 3.5 precedents for this.

[ViperMagnum357]

Knight of the Thorn whenever i build a Wizard or Sorcerer: picking up the extra slots from specialization without giving up schools, while also being a generalist/domain wizard or some sorcerer variant is too tasty to pass up. Having to cough up three feats to buy back each school you ban is patently ridiculous, and that is assuming your build has access to the setting specific book. Relatedly, I use Domain Wizard so often I have to remind myself it is not actually in Core, rather a variant rule I am not guaranteed access to.

[Gruftzwerg]

What's the source of Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat? My google-fu is failing me.

It's from PF (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/accomplished-sneak-attacker/).

______________________


For Ubercharger builds I really like to dip 2 lvls into Drunken Master to get Stagger.
Stagger allows for unlimited direction changes while charging.
Thus it is allowing to charge every turn no matter your position to the enemy. You can even run back and forth or make a (flying) looping to charge an enemy that is directly in front of you (at the start of your turn).
Combine that with some charge multipliers for your entire charge dmg and you'll have constantly super high dmg.


I also second Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. It's a nice gish in a can that is especially nice for early game. It can also help with some tight gish concepts to get enough BAB early on to enter the desired PRC.

[Soranar]

Playing something with sneak attack (an urban druid wildshaped into a darkstalker, a rogue, a ninja, some kind of caster with alter self into a darkstalker, etc)

While being an azurin (human with +1 essentia)
with shape soulmed (to get dissolving spittle)
and share soulmeld (to share it with a normally weak animal companion or familiar)

A ranged touch attack is super useful at lower levels when it's hard to land a hit and having a backup weapon that can't be disarmed (and has range) is just gravy.

It doesn't scale well at higher levels but, even without a meldshaping class, you get a 2d6 damage touch attack that you can share with a critter.

At level 1-5 I've seen this combo carry an entire party through multiple encounters. Just keep using your 5 ft step to get out of reach and spit at your opponents until they die, acid resistance is quite rare early one.

And the acid is useful in other ways too (you can attack objets with it: hinges, locks, prison bars, weapons, spell component pouches, etc)

otherwise the killoren smite combined with a mounted charge and a lance is a staple of mine

[Anthrowhale]

A couple tricks for higher op games.

Universally positive stat modifiers for many races:
Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale has stats of +8/+4/+4/+0/+4/+0, large size, natural armor+9, 60' blindsight out of water, and a tail attack at LA+0 and 3 monstrous humanoid (full bab, Refl,Will, darkvision).
Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic baleen whale has stats of +12/+4/+4/-2/+4/-2, large size, natural armor+11, 60' blindsight out of water, and a tail attack at LA+0 and 3 monstrous humanoid (full bab, Refl,Will, darkvision) that also counts as a giant.
Primordial Giant Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale has stats of +8/+4/+2/+2/+4/+2, large size, natural armor+11, 60' blindsight out of water, the ability to turn invisible at will, and a tail attack at LA+0 and 3 monstrous humanoid (full bab, Refl,Will, darkvision) that also counts as a giant.
This can be further salted with Dragonborn and/or Unseelie Fey.
And then if you take two levels in many spellcasting classes, you can qualify for Shaper of Form which allows you to change your race to any LA+0 race of the same type while preserving stats. The straightforward choice here is something like a Lupin, but you also qualify for the LA+0 half-giant in Complete Psionic, or as a Jermlaine if you took Unseelie fey. Overall, this seems to work best when building a gish character.

Caster level escalation:
Abyssal Wizard(Aligned[chaotic], spontaneous divination) 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus 10 taking Theurgic Specialist at level 6. The interaction of these elements means that wizard always advances, that caster level of [chaotic] spells are about 2x character level from level 6 on, and that you can add persistent spell to wizard spells relatively easily.

[thatothersting]

A single level of Cloistered Cleric is a personal favorite, because it works so well with so many builds, both magical and mundane. For instance:

Trade away Knowledge (or Travel if your DM insists on it, though it makes no sense to me that you'd lose the domain you're devoted to in order to gain the devotion feat) domain to get the Travel Devotion feat, and take the Undeath domain to get the Extra Turning feat for free, OR! Take an elemental domain and take Extra Turning as one of your "regular" feats so that you can get double the benefit from ET (it applies to all forms of turning you possess, after all, and elemental turning can fuel divine feats, but sometimes a DM may quibble about that because many DMs are allergic to fun).

From this you can dive directly into Monk and, goodness, what's this? Why, you can now MOVE as a swift action and use your Flurry of Blows or Decisive Strike each round! And it synergizes with the increased move speed from the class! My God... a Monk that is both fast and capable of using his signature class feature, how frightening! And funny enough, since it's not done as a standard action the volley rules are irrelevant, making Scout and Rogue extremely useful as add-ons for extra fun. Furthermore, since there's a feat for Rangers that grants them Monk unarmed strike progression and one that gives them Skirmish progression you can actually become a very competent pugilist with this stuff, though that necessarily reduces your potential speed. Small price to pay, tbh.



On the other end, there's the painfully obvious but always fun Illumian shenanigans where you get two arcane spells to operate all day starting at level 2.

Cleric 1: Planning domain (Extend Spell for free), Undeath for the Extra Turning (because we want it NOW, but you can do the elemental domain thing if you don't mind delaying to third level), Persistent Spell (ez qualification), take the right sigils to get the 2/day "spend turn attempts to fuel metamagic feats" ability that doesn't care about what kind of spells you're empowering, and then dive into the class you actually want. I personally enjoy the Sorcerer for this since I can get huge HP and 3/4 BAB, and then persist a couple of weapon-like spells that I can "Sudden Maximize" and "Sudden Empower" at the start of the day. Very stupid but very fun, I personally favor Thunderlance for this trick because of the absurd melee reach. 1-20 feet is no joke considering the extremely small resource investment.

[Troacctid]

You can get a ton of mileage out of an amber amulet of vermin at low levels. Summoning a Large monstrous scorpion 1/day as a standard action and immediately having it full attack is pretty good for only 700 gp, it turns out.

[Wildstag]

Hengeyokai[Sparrow] provides access to a Fine form with flight, a baseline AC of 22, and can actually do something with Surrogate Spellasting.

In a similar vein, Hengeyokai in general is a great way for a martial to enter Warshaper early and still benefit from 16 levels of other classes. Plus, unlike Tabaxi or Changeling, you get to keep a humanoid form but also get a bonus to a stat you might need. My personal favorite is Dog or Badger for that +2 Con in hybrid form, which you can use with Warshaper to get whatever shenanigans your GM allows.


When I'm designing Pathfinder characters, I almost always try to fit in a bloodline somewhere. Whether it's taking the Eldritch Heritage feats or using Variant Multi-Classing (Sorcerer), I feel like I need a little something extra. (This can be hard with a feat-intensive build so it doesn't always work out, but I always try to see if it's possible.) Even a totally mundane class can now have superpowers too! (The problem is that mundane classes tend to need a lot of feats to make up for their shortcomings, so this doesn't always work.)

One of the bloodlines I reach for the most often when designing a spellcaster is the Shapechanger bloodline. While Pathfinder did try very hard to nerf all the polymorph spells by giving them small benefits (with most spells given a strict boundary of what benefits they can give you with the only exception being natural attacks which are left to be absolutely anything that the original creature has) as well as a short duration, that short duration can be completely overwritten by the Shapechanger bloodline which makes it so that you can stay in your desired form for hours at a time, long enough to fill out the adventuring day. This bloodline totally breaks one of the hard boundaries (short durations for polymorph spells) that Pathfinder set up and I love it.

As a person that loves racial shapeshifting, the nerfs really hurt, and Paizo's hatred for it worsened in PF2E. It'd be nice if Rougarou could use Eldritch Heritage to just become a wolf for most of the day, but go purely martial to do melee combat things, but it doesn't count as casting a spell for the bloodline sadly. Otherwise it is good for other classes that get transmutation spells.

Also it's conveniently worded to shut down Haste with that bloodline power, but there's a lot of other good transmutation spells.

[aglondier]

I generally play elf wizard, and can usually scrape together a +10 initiative (dex 18, improved initiative, reactionary trait), ensuring I often go first in combat...and drop a haste on the party. The extra attack each party member does is thus technically my damage, and usually comes to more than an average fireball each round...

Otherwise, I go for item creation feats, and create an "infinite wand" of magic missiles, allowing me to do auto damage every round of combat, saving my memorised spells for party buffs and battlefield control...

[Inevitability]

I find marshal 1/bard 1 to be a pretty solid package for charisma-based melee. Marshall gives charisma to damage while flanking/charging, bard gives bardic music and through that snowflake wardance. It can easily advance by grabbing a few other bard levels and then going into a PrC, or add more dips.

[Elkad]

Always trade your familiar out, and then buy it back with Obtain, so it counts all your arcane levels.

Buy a familar via Obtain on all the other arcane classes who will get something like full progression out of it (Duskblade, etc)

[Gruftzwerg]

Always trade your familiar out, and then buy it back with Obtain, so it counts all your arcane levels.

Buy a familar via Obtain on all the other arcane classes who will get something like full progression out of it (Duskblade, etc)

I'm not really a fan of this one unless you really want the the ACF for trading the familiar.

Unless you need that ACF badly you basically waste a feat.

Finally, a familiar doesn't get that much progression beyond lvl 5...
Talk with Animals of its Kind, Spell Resistance, Scry on familiar and some more INT ..
Besides from Spell Resistance there is not really anything interesting.
Most stuff of a familiar already scales with the master (BAB, skills, saves, HP).

So unless you want that ACF (and a familiar), it is a waste of a feat (for me).

[Zanos]

I'm not really a fan of this one unless you really want the the ACF for trading the familiar.

Unless you need that ACF badly you basically waste a feat.

Finally, a familiar doesn't get that much progression beyond lvl 5...
Talk with Animals of its Kind, Spell Resistance, Scry on familiar and some more INT ..
Besides from Spell Resistance there is not really anything interesting.
Most stuff of a familiar already scales with the master (BAB, skills, saves, HP).

So unless you want that ACF (and a familiar), it is a waste of a feat (for me).
Yeah, it's the opportunity cost of a flaw. It's not exactly wasting a feat, but it's pretty close. And you get basically everything you want out of a familiar at level 1 anyway. Deliver touch spells comes at 3 and speak with master at 5. Even if you wanted to PRC out to master specialist at level 4, you could just buy a very cheap pearl of speech.

[Buufreak]

Contingent on a dm allowing you to learn druidic without taking a level of druid (which i don't know why it is such a leap, considering there are rules for teaching it to non druids), but entering fochulcan lyrist with only ranger, scout, and bard.

It isn't a super big wow. It isn't game breaking. It is probably fairly low power. But damn it, you get nearly full bab, 13 ranger casting, 10 bard, reasonable saves, and swift hunter stuff too!

[pabelfly]

Always trade your familiar out, and then buy it back with Obtain, so it counts all your arcane levels.

Buy a familar via Obtain on all the other arcane classes who will get something like full progression out of it (Duskblade, etc)

This is a nice trick, especially since most Sorcerer and Wizard ACFs trade off the familiar for various benefits, but a familiar is a pretty solid boost to a character. Thanks for sharing.

[Elkad]

Finally, a familiar doesn't get that much progression beyond lvl 5...

The Int alone is pretty good. It's a second roll on all your knowledge checks, etc, and you want to get it out of the penalty at a minimum.

Admittedly I'm usually headed for Improved Familiar as well, as those are nearly 2nd characters. Low powered ones, sure, but an Imp is more useful in the party than something like a Barbarian.

[Melcar]

For me its usually more to do with my general build style. I like to build specialists in the sense that what ever concept I choose I build and optimize fairly focused on that alone.

So I might build towards stealth, grappling, followers, raw damage output or maybe crafting. Then I woulds scour my books and internet for how to become the best at that.

So I have very few go to build tricks besides choosing races that all give bonuses towards my most important stat for that particular build.

[Mordante]

Seems a lot of people are really focused on doing max damage. But combat is only a small part of DnD.

[loky1109]

Seems a lot of people are really focused on doing max damage. But combat is only a small part of DnD.

Combat is small part of the game, but it's major part of the system.

[Mordante]

Combat is small part of the game, but it's major part of the system.

That is true. I'm in 3 parties at the moment in 2 of them combat doesn't happen that often, once every 2 to 3 sessions. Sometime hardly any dice are involved in a session.

I don't mind multiclassing or even a bit of cheese but it has to support the character (development) not just because it give MOAR POWAH. To me 1 level dips are meh. Builds should not be dependent of the availability of certain magic items.

[H_H_F_F]

I don't mind multiclassing or even a bit of cheese but it has to support the character (development) not just because it give MOAR POWAH. To me 1 level dips are meh. Builds should not be dependent of the availability of certain magic items.

As a DM, I too care that your build makes thematic sense, though I'm not at all strict about that. It's just important for me for these things to be acknowledged. You're playing a character, not a video game avatar. I also care, of course, that you build for a power level appropriate for the campaign and the party.

As a judge on forum competitions, I don't care as much if an entry is just about about mechanics - but there's an analogue, in that I feel that it has to support a cohesive mechanical vision. Of course, I also penalize excessive item reliance. I feel like we might be more similar in how we'd judge entries than how we DM, though I can't know without ever seeing you judge, obviously.

[pabelfly]

Seems a lot of people are really focused on doing max damage. But combat is only a small part of DnD.

It really depends on the DM and the game in question. Most games I play it takes anywhere between 50-75% of the game. And I'm seeing a mix of max damage and defensive options too.

And focusing on combat makes sense when combat is often a life and death situation, while being bad at social stuff or skill checks can be much more easily worked around.

[Mordante]

As a DM, I too care that your build makes thematic sense, though I'm not at all strict about that. It's just important for me for these things to be acknowledged. You're playing a character, not a video game avatar. I also care, of course, that you build for a power level appropriate for the campaign and the party.

As a judge on forum competitions, I don't care as much if an entry is just about about mechanics - but there's an analogue, in that I feel that it has to support a cohesive mechanical vision. Of course, I also penalize excessive item reliance. I feel like we might be more similar in how we'd judge entries than how we DM, though I can't know without ever seeing you judge, obviously.

My main issue is that if a group is in the middle of some wilderness campain and we level up that a character suddenly has a level cloistered cleric. If I were a DM I would probably not make an issue out of it but it would kind of bug. All depending on the situation though, party etc.

[Twurps]

My main issue is that if a group is in the middle of some wilderness campain and we level up that a character suddenly has a level cloistered cleric. If I were a DM I would probably not make an issue out of it but it would kind of bug. All depending on the situation though, party etc.

counterargument:
Playing a fun PRC can take up to 10 levels of carefull planning, just to make sure you meet all the prereq's in time. As a player I would hate to ruin 9 levels of preparation just because at level-up to lvl10 we weren't in the appropriate place for my lvl10 choice.

On topic:
I find myself using 2 levels of 'feat rogue' quite frequently to meet skill and feat prereq's. Or a 2 level dip in one of the many variations of monk that Unearthed Arcane has to offer, for the same purpose. The skills are just so much better than a fighter, and evasion or one of it's ACF's (spell reflection, invisibility) are just gravy.

A dip of swordsage works well in any martial build. The IL rules are very 'dip friendly'. And swordsage maneuvers have so much utility to offer (invisibility, short range teleport, concealment, maveuvers to replace your weak saves) that's difficult to come by otherwise. Also it gives enough maneuvers right at lvl1 to be able to pick higher level maneuvers with prereq maneuvers.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

1.) Psions have the level 4 open psionic chakra power, which allows them to natively bind soulmelds to high level chakras earlier in their careers than any other class in the entire game, since higher level chakra binds are based on augmentation, and augmentation is capped only by your ML, which is really, really easy to boost. So as soon as you hit psion level 7 (or the equivalent with PrCs), you can start binding shoulder binds via application of augmented psionic open chakra.

2.) Monk unarmed strikes count as both manufactured and natural weapons for various effects that benefit them, meaning you can target their unarmed strikes with (greater) magic weapon, etc. And if you spent 300 gp on character creation, this should allow you to have masterwork unarmed strikes, which would allow you to turn your unarmed strikes into actual magic (or psionic) weapons. Since you can conceivably make an unarmed strike with any part of your body (punches, kicks, headbutts, shoulder checks, body slams while grappling, etc), that should turn your entire body into a +1 or greater magic weapon. And since magic weapons gain hardness and bonus hp from their enhancement bonus, any monk with a +1 or greater unarmed strike should gain hardness and bonus hp from it. Not to mention all the fantastic weapon enhancements out there that can give fun effects, such as ghost touch to turn incorporeal and back as non-actions, brilliant energy to ignore nonliving matter entirely (although I'd suggest at least one livewood weapon and always-on flight [or, at least, livewood sandals] if you're going to do that), and throwing + distance to throw yourself around via your flurries. Also, weapon crystals, from the MIC.

3.) Psionic manifesters have access to tons of power point recharge effects, but even if those are blanket-banned, it's very easy to use low-level powers without augmentation to keep up at high levels. Psionic minor creation scales extremely well without augmenting, and if you take the Linked Power feat, you can manifest PMC and gain the effects in 1 round or less. With enough ranks in Craft skills, you can produce huge amounts of any plant-based poison or alchemy items. Imagine drowning your foes in a small ocean's worth of black lotus extract, alchemist's acid, or alchemist's fire. Anything that isn't outright immune is probably gonna die in short order, even at high levels.

4.) Feats are rare and valuable, while money (ironically) is far less so in most games. So I like to buy feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts) for cheap, which I then use the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle to swap out. It's a great way to get access to lots of soulmelds to bind via #1 above.

5.) This trick (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) allows you to buy feat-granting items from #4 and duplicate them. Feel free to abuse the hell out of that to gain tons of feats for very cheap.

[H_H_F_F]

2.) Monk unarmed strikes count as both manufactured and natural weapons for various effects that benefit them, meaning you can target their unarmed strikes with (greater) magic weapon, etc. And if you spent 300 gp on character creation, this should allow you to have masterwork unarmed strikes, which would allow you to turn your unarmed strikes into actual magic (or psionic) weapons. Since you can conceivably make an unarmed strike with any part of your body (punches, kicks, headbutts, shoulder checks, body slams while grappling, etc), that should turn your entire body into a +1 or greater magic weapon. And since magic weapons gain hardness and bonus hp from their enhancement bonus, any monk with a +1 or greater unarmed strike should gain hardness and bonus hp from it. Not to mention all the fantastic weapon enhancements out there that can give fun effects, such as ghost touch to turn incorporeal and back as non-actions, brilliant energy to ignore nonliving matter entirely (although I'd suggest at least one livewood weapon and always-on flight [or, at least, livewood sandals] if you're going to do that), and throwing + distance to throw yourself around via your flurries. Also, weapon crystals, from the MIC.

Can't do that. Can't say "technically, RAW says they're a manufactured weapon" on the one hand, and make the huge, enormous, unjustified leap from "either fist interchangeably, or even elbows, knees and feet" to "etc, including your lungs" on the other. I've talked about this issue before here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637097-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXV&p=25258363&viewfull=1#post25258363), under the spoiler tag "wint". Look for the discussion in the "elegance" category.


4.) Feats are rare and valuable, while money (ironically) is far less so in most games. So I like to buy feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts) for cheap, which I then use the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle to swap out. It's a great way to get access to lots of soulmelds to bind via #1 above.

5.) This trick (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) allows you to buy feat-granting items from #4 and duplicate them. Feel free to abuse the hell out of that to gain tons of feats for very cheap.

I assume those aren't things you'd consider using in a real campaign? Because I think that's more the orientation of this thread, rather than TO (which we discuss plenty).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can't do that. Can't say "technically, RAW says they're a manufactured weapon" on the one hand, and make the huge, enormous, unjustified leap from "either fist interchangeably, or even elbows, knees and feet" to "etc, including your lungs" on the other. I've talked about this issue before here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637097-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXV&p=25258363&viewfull=1#post25258363), under the spoiler tag "wint". Look for the discussion in the "elegance" category.The rules also say that you can do stuff like you could in the real world. If you can hit someone with a fist or foot, you can hit them with other parts of your body. Real life martial artists can strike with almost any surface of the body, including elbows, knees, headbutts, body slams, etc. It's really not even a tiny a leap of logic to say that any part of the body used to strike at someone unarmed would be an unarmed strike, since you're, y'know, striking unarmed. Lots of fighting games even have "melee strike by throwing yourself" as a moveset. Go look at Liu Kang, from Mortal Kombat, for examples of this, so throwing + distance unarmed strikes aren't out of the realm of possibility.

Plus, monks need all the help we can wring out of them.


I assume those aren't things you'd consider using in a real campaign? Because I think that's more the orientation of this thread, rather than TO (which we discuss plenty).There are most certainly games out there that allow you to use the rules to their fullest. Emperor Tippy's is one set of examples, and I've had a couple of DMs that allowed heavy optimization in that vein, as well.

[H_H_F_F]

The rules also say that you can do stuff like you could in the real world. If you can hit someone with a fist or foot, you can hit them with other parts of your body. Real life martial artists can strike with almost any surface of the body, including elbows, knees, headbutts, body slams, etc. It's really not even a tiny a leap of logic to say that any part of the body used to strike at someone unarmed would be an unarmed strike, since you're, y'know, striking unarmed.

To me, if you bring logic into the discussion, then it's also obvious that you can't have masterwork unarmed strike by "spending 300 gold at character creation". I don't think that works rules-wise, either, given the craft skill, but that's not the point.

But sure, let's go. Any part of you that can be used to strike is an unarmed strike. That's still not "you". You have lungs, you have a liver, you have a digestive tract, you have a brain, you (might) have testicles, etc. So "you" don't get hardness. A lot of your skin does, perhaps, by reasonable interpretation; but your skin isn't the target of an attack, by RAW. You are. Ghost touch would kill you instantly as your brain falls through your now-incorporeal skull.

Like I said, I recommend reading what I told WhamBamSam about this reading before.

There actually is a way to make your whole body count as a wepaon, by the way, but I'm keeping it secret for now :smallredface:


There are most certainly games out there that allow you to use the rules to their fullest. Emperor Tippy's is one set of examples, and I've had a couple of DMs that allowed heavy optimization in that vein, as well.

To their fullest? Like, pun-pun fullest? Candle of invocation fullest?

I believe you, but that's not at all been my experience. Did you ever have a long (or long-ish) campaign with such a DM? Was it fun? Sounds like too much for me, personally, but I'll admit to being curious.

[Crichton]

... your ML, which is really, really easy to boost.[/I]

I don't want to derail the thread, but how does one, 'really really easily' boost their ML (without using houserules like CL-boosting items instead/also boosting ML, etc?) The only things I can think of are Practiced Manifester (which only works if you have lost manifester levels to begin with), bloodline levels, which are an rarely-instated variant rule, and maybe Overchannel and Wilder's Wild Surge, if we're counting something temporary? There are ways to increase your ability to *augment* via PP-cost reducers, sure, but actual, legit boosting of your real, actual ML?

[Troacctid]

The rules also say that you can do stuff like you could in the real world. If you can hit someone with a fist or foot, you can hit them with other parts of your body. Real life martial artists can strike with almost any surface of the body, including elbows, knees, headbutts, body slams, etc. It's really not even a tiny a leap of logic to say that any part of the body used to strike at someone unarmed would be an unarmed strike, since you're, y'know, striking unarmed. Lots of fighting games even have "melee strike by throwing yourself" as a moveset. Go look at Liu Kang, from Mortal Kombat, for examples of this, so throwing + distance unarmed strikes aren't out of the realm of possibility.

Plus, monks need all the help we can wring out of them.
It's not RAW in D&D 3.5e though. RAW says fists, elbows, knees, or feet.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't want to derail the thread, but how does one, 'really really easily' boost their ML (without using houserules like CL-boosting items instead/also boosting ML, etc?) The only things I can think of are Practiced Manifester (which only works if you have lost manifester levels to begin with), bloodline levels, which are an rarely-instated variant rule, and maybe Overchannel and Wilder's Wild Surge, if we're counting something temporary? There are ways to increase your ability to *augment* via PP-cost reducers, sure, but actual, legit boosting of your real, actual ML?The MIC has explicit rules on allowing psionic versions of magic items, so using CL-boosting items to boost ML is certainly within the rules.

Also, any effect that reduces manifesting costs allows you to spend additional power points to cover the deficit. (X - 1 + 1 still equals X.)

Metamagicpsionic rods bound to your hands chakra combined with psionic versions of the arcanist gloves (via the item combination rules in the MIC), an orange ioun stone, the Earth Power feat, Practiced Manifester (to make up for any levels in totemist or PrC levels or whatever), the Magic mantle + Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), Overchannel/Talented, Midnight Augmentation, the torc of power preservation, Metapower (Linked Power + synchronicity), etc.


It's not RAW in D&D 3.5e though. RAW says fists, elbows, knees, or feet.And you can actually strike unarmed with almost any part of your body, else headbutts, shoulder-checks, and body-slams would not be things that exist. It says, "even from elbows, knees, and feet," indicating they're further examples, rather than being an exclusive list.

[Eurus]

I have a deep love for the share pain+vigor psicrystal trick. I don't think it's at all unbalanced for the cost you're paying, but it's very funny to be able to tank more pure HP damage than the entire rest of the party put together, especially on a character who's otherwise a squishy looking blaster. Probably my favorite practical optimization trick, and a big chunk of the reason I like playing manifesters.

[H_H_F_F]

It says, "even from elbows, knees, and feet," indicating they're further examples, rather than being an exclusive list.

Hard disagree. "I can get 10, even 12 million dollars for this apartment!" Foes not at all imply U can get 14. Vice versa - the "even" demonstrates 12 is the outer limit of my estimate. It's far less likely to recognize 14 as a possibility than a simple "I can get 10, 12 million for this apartment!"

"Even" doesn't imply "etc" to me at all.

Of course, as a DM, I let people headbut - but that's not because it's a good interpretation of RAW, but because I'm a normal person.

And again, taking the rules to their fullest would insta-kill any monk doing this, even by your approach.

[Crichton]

The MIC has explicit rules on allowing psionic versions of magic items, so using CL-boosting items to boost ML is certainly within the rules.

?? That would just make a psionic item that boosts CL, though. That's not the same as an item that boosts ML (unless it specifically says it does that? I don't have the book in front of me right now)


Also, any effect that reduces manifesting costs allows you to spend additional power points to cover the deficit. (X - 1 + 1 still equals X.) Yes, which is great for increasing how far you can augment a power, but it isn't an ML boost (doesn't affect duration, range, or your bonus PP from ability score the way an actual ML boost would)


Metamagicpsionic rods bound to your hands chakra, an orange ioun stone, the Earth Power feat, Practiced Manifester (to make up for any levels in totemist or PrC levels or whatever), the Magic mantle + Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), Overchannel/Talented, Midnight Augmentation, the torc of power preservation, Metapower (Linked Power + synchronicity), etc.


Most of these fall into the above categories, or are ways to catch up for lost ML levels, which is nice for multiclassing, but aren't ML boosts. I guess when you said it was really easy, I was hoping you knew some ways I hadn't thought of, to boost a manifester's *actual* ML

[Anthrowhale]

I guess when you said it was really easy, I was hoping you knew some ways I hadn't thought of, to boost a manifester's *actual* ML
My experience here is that the easiest way to boost ML is to boost CL and then cast Mental Pinnacle.

A less comprehensive but more straightforward approach is offered via Psiotheurgist although that requires Dragon Magazine content.

[Zombulian]

I forgot another favorite build trick, though I don't use it too often these days.

Martial Monk is a pretty nutty Monk variant. You get to pick your bonus feats from the Fighter list instead of the usual ones listed for Monks, but since they're still feats provided by the Monk class, you don't have to have the prerequisites to take the feat.

[Pinkie Pyro]

It's not RAW in D&D 3.5e though. RAW says fists, elbows, knees, or feet.

Question then, where does it define what parts of the body you can make an unarmed strike with if you aren't a monk?

all I got is

"A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike."

Because without a list of body parts here, we're either saying that monks are *more* restricted in what parts of their body can be used as a weapon, or that non-monks deal unarmed damage without using any part of their body, yeah?

__________________

On topic: Using Chameleon lvl 2 floating feat for item creation feats, or using it for "extra spell" to have access to any spell 1 less than your maximum casting level is a favorite of mine.

[Gruftzwerg]

Question then, where does it define what parts of the body you can make an unarmed strike with if you aren't a monk?

all I got is

"A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike."

Because without a list of body parts here, we're either saying that monks are *more* restricted in what parts of their body can be used as a weapon, or that non-monks deal unarmed damage without using any part of their body, yeah?


Have a look at the PHB's weapon section/descriptions (p121):


Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of
nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch,
kick, head butt, or other type of attack.
...

RAW is a bit messy when it comes to regular unarmed strikes and the monk's version.

But on the other hand, the use of "headbutts" ain't that common in martial arts as hollywood tries to make you believe.
In most martial arts a headbutt is considered a high risk move. And unless you can surprise your enemy, chances are that you take move damage then him.
Headbutts make work in a streetfight maybe, but against a professional fighter it's a very stupid idea to lead and attack with your face. You are literary asking to be punched into the face..
I'm not saying that it never works, but it is very risky and most martial arts try to protect the head and don't weaponize it.

What I wanted to say is, that 3.5 may be more accurate here than most hollywood movies on this topic..^^

And as always, nobody forces you to play strict RAW. And this is one of the situations where I highly suggest to make your own houserules for this. Unless you have some kind of crazy optimizer at your table, it won't break the game (I highly doubt it is possible at all to have a headbutt focused build, that has some kind of headbutt bonus in 3.5.. ^^).

edit:
As you can see, the SRD did dropped that info (see your own quote). So there is an argument to be made that RAI maybe never intended to be so precise/restrictive with the definition of unarmed strikes.

[Clause]

For martial ones, i take 1 dread commando level+ craven feat, so increasing the damage.

For dual casting, alll i need is a human and take precocious apêndice feat + southern magician feat. So you can take the dual evolution ate 3rd level.

If you take 1level sorcerrer+ 1 level of hexblade( or dread necromancer) and precocious aprentice feat, you can take dread witch( heroes of horror) at level 3.

A human cloistered cleric, with favored in the guild(shadowbane) feat, can take church inquisitor at level 2.

An spelless Dwarf build up to lvl 17, may be ended with 3 levels off ollam to gain cleric spellcasting=17

[Jay R]

The most important build trick is this: run every character idea by the DM, before you make the final decision.

She can help you make it fit into the world’s culture and can tell you what won’t work in her system.

On the simplest level, you don’t want to be the half-elf son of a deposed king who is trained as a wyvern hunter in a world with no elves, kings, or wyverns.

On the next level, she can tell you what builds she simply won’t allow. Don’t spend time developing a Shadowcraft Mage if the Races of Stone book is not allowed.

But far more importantly, she can tell you if the idea appeals to her.

The build that the DM approves of will be far more effective than a build that the DM dislikes.

There is a legal maxim: “Any lawyer knows the law. A good lawyer knows the exceptions. A great lawyer knows the judge.”

Similarly, a great player knows the DM.

It's not that they cheat for or against anyone. But a lot of what happens is DM interpretation of the rules, and DMs interpret differently. Play a role that this DM interprets the same way you do.

A build that the DM thinks is cheesy will be interpreted as severely as possible. A build that appeals to her will be interpreted much more favorably.

For one of my DMs, my character will be overly bold. For another, my PC will be chosen to fit into the genre. For a third, I will play an illusionist. For a fourth, I will never play an illusionist. For a fifth DM, whatever I play, my PC will always be honest but not overly trusting.

Besides being more effective, the idea that sings to the DM is the one that will be most fun to play.

[H_H_F_F]

An spelless Dwarf build up to lvl 17, may be ended with 3 levels off ollam to gain cleric spellcasting=17

Explain, please.

[Gruftzwerg]

Explain, please.


If an ollam had no levels in a spellcasting class before taking the prestige class, at 2nd level she gains the spellcasting abilities of a cleric whose caster level is one lower than her class level.

I guess he means this, but the ability refers to "class level" and not to actual "character level". So this doesn't work as good as he implied (unless I missed something here).

[H_H_F_F]

I guess he means this, but the ability refers to "class level" and not to actual "character level". So this doesn't work as good as he implied (unless I missed something here).

I'm aware of how Ollam works, I'm trying to figure out what OP sees here that I don't. I don't think it's just missing the line "class level" and reading it as "character level", because then rounding off with three levels of Ollam would give cleric 19 casting, not 17. So at this point, I'm just waiting to read the argument for Ollam 3 giving cleric 17 casting.

[Morphic tide]

One bit I've considered is using Heretic of the Faith as a floating feat on a Chameleon. You'd thusly be able to shift all the mechanical properties of your deity on a daily basis, but you need an outside source for that to matter since Chameleon doesn't do so naturally. Good case for Founding a variable legacy item.

[Inevitability]

One bit I've considered is using Heretic of the Faith as a floating feat on a Chameleon. You'd thusly be able to shift all the mechanical properties of your deity on a daily basis, but you need an outside source for that to matter since Chameleon doesn't do so naturally. Good case for Founding a variable legacy item.

Also nice if you have the war domain, I suppose? Free floating weapon focus and weapon proficiency sounds pretty cool.

Hilarious to imagine in-game though:

"Guys! Guys! I realized something! Bahamut is actually a god of following your heart and fighting for freedom, not all this law-and-order stuff! And his favored weapon isn't the heavy pick, it's the goliath greathammer!"
"That's very nice greg, I'm sure this time you won't change your mind after a day."

[Morphic tide]

Also nice if you have the war domain, I suppose? Free floating weapon focus and weapon proficiency sounds pretty cool.

Hilarious to imagine in-game though:

"Guys! Guys! I realized something! Bahamut is actually a god of following your heart and fighting for freedom, not all this law-and-order stuff! And his favored weapon isn't the heavy pick, it's the goliath greathammer!"
"That's very nice greg, I'm sure this time you won't change your mind after a day."
Having it be a Doppelganger or Changeling means you can give each heresy a different alias, which permits the build to generate schisms in bulk. Likely target for Varakhuts, probably also a kill-team sent by Kelemvor for making the Wall issue heat up again.