Rules/darkness/moved ladder

[HoboKnight]

Hey guys,
I have a question.

We have a corridor, 30 ft long, 10 ft high, 10 ft wide. At the end of the corridor, there is a caster, ready to cast Ice Storm at the other end of the corridor. At the middle of the corridor, there is a ladder, going from bottom to corridor cieling, blocking LoE 5ft wide, 10 ft high. Someone had cast Magical darkness, obscuring middle 10 ft of corridor, within which ladder rests.

In the darkness, next to a ladder, there is a goblin, who used Hide bonus action sucessfully(got Stealthed status) and moved the ladder next to the position, ladder stood before, while in magical darkness.

Does the caster at the end of corridor know, ladder was moved and it will block LoE if cast through the square, prevously free of ladder?

Option B - goblin is not stealthed.

I claim, even with Magical darkness status at the middle, caster knows, ladder has been moved and will send his spell next to the ladder, thus preventing LoE from being blocked. Some of my players diagree.

What do the rules say?

Thanks

[OldTrees1]

Does the caster at the end of corridor know, ladder was moved and it will block LoE if cast through the square, previously free of ladder?

What do the rules say?

I doubt the caster knows. Your description did not indicate the caster had any special senses to detect the obstruction and your description seemed to indicate the standard senses (sight, sound, etc) were negated or ineffective. If I were running that session I would have the caster unaware of the obstruction.

This is similar to the question: If an archer is blindly shooting into the dark, will they know if an obstruction was introduced blocking their line of fire? Probably not.

The rules say the GM decides what the NPC knows.


Edit: Now if you are having darkness only obscure its area (and not hinder sight through it) then part of your question is whether the ladder in the darkness can be seen by it obscuring sight through the darkness. (Different DMs use one or the other ruling about the visibility of things on the other side of darkness)

If you are ruling that the caster previously had perfect vision of the end of the corridor, but now there is a ladder in the way, then I suspect the caster will notice the obstruction even if they can't see the ladder's oak texture.


Either way the caster's vision of the end of the corridor is now a bit obscured. The only question is whether it was completely obscured before the ladder was moved (no difference to see) or completely unobscured before the ladder was moved (so the new obstruction is noticeable).

[HoboKnight]

My problem is as follows: as I see it, Darkness(including magical) applies Blinded condition to mentioned caster. Meaning, he can not target creatures in darkened area with spells and can make attacks against creatures in darkness with disatvantage. Blinded status does not say, caster should be unable to detect inanimate object, that may block LoE. He should be able to detect locations of all non-stealthed creatures in dark area and have perfect knowledge of terrain, even if changed after darkness was cast.

[Silly Name]

I believe you're looking at this in a far too "robotic" way. Is the caster able to see what happens in the area affected by Darkness? If yes, he knows the ladder was moved. If not, he doesn't know.

The rules about conditions and sight and illumination and so on aren't intended to replace nor override the normal rules of the world.

But here's what the PHB says about sight and darkness and stuff:


A heavily obscured area - such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage - blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.


Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness.

What about the blinded condition?


- A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
- Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

So, the Darkness spell creates an area of magical darkness. You can't see what's going on in that area. So the caster doesn't know if the ladder was moved, because he can't see it.

The caster can't see the darkness-covered area, and so he can't have knowledge if it looks different from before the Darkness spell was cast until its effect ends and the caster can again see what's going on.

EDIT: In short, the caster doesn't have any visual feedback of the heavily obscured area. Theoretically, he wouldn't be able to know if a dancing striped hippopotamus magically appeared in that area as long as the hippopotamus doesn't produce any other sensorial feedback the caster could reasonably detect, and even then it's unlikely those feedbacks would allow the caster to know there was a dancing striped hippopotamus there.

[OldTrees1]

My problem is as follows: as I see it, Darkness(including magical) applies Blinded condition to mentioned caster. Meaning, he can not target creatures in darkened area with spells and can make attacks against creatures in darkness with disatvantage. Blinded status does not say, caster should be unable to detect inanimate object, that may block LoE. He should be able to detect locations of all non-stealthed creatures in dark area and have perfect knowledge of terrain, even if changed after darkness was cast.


Yes a heavily obscured area can be simulated by treating the observer as if they were effectively (but not actually) blinded. Here is a relevant part of the Blinded condition:

A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
So, as you see it, the caster can't see the ladder move since Blinded prevents seeing inanimate objects. The question is whether the caster's other senses noticed the ladder moving into the way. Your description did not indicate the Caster hearing the ladder move, so I am assuming the Caster failed their perception and thus did not notice.


Consider, what if that hidden goblin took some paint and painted the floor red. Would the caster have perfect knowledge of the paint? Even knowing there was paint depends on if they heard the painting.

[da newt]

Ladders are roughly 90% air / 10% rungs and side bits.
The Caster can't see the ladder has been moved, so any attack spell will be at DISADV and have AT MOST 1/2 cover for a target beyond the ladder.
A clear path to the target does not need to follow a straight line (some may choose to rule that it does, but RAW it does not). A wall that blocks the entire 10' wide by 10' high passage does block a clear path to the target.
Ice Storm does not require a target you can see, only a spot within range - a ladder does not block a place within range.

[Marcloure]

I'm more curious about what would happen if the ladder blocks the path between the caster and the spell's point of origin. Would the spell be cast where the line hits the ladder? The spell doesn't have a projectile though, so would the spell simply fail?

[HoboKnight]

I really appreciate the answers and have in retrospect figured, I have another related question.

Darkness
2 Evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Target: A point you choose within range
Components: V M (Bat fur and a drop of pitch or piece of coal)
Duration: Up to 10 minutes
Classes: Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot-radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners. A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it.
If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn’t being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it. Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness.
If any of this spell’s area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.


The description goes "A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness." So, I have a player in my group, that claims, "can't see" does not apply the Blinded Condition or Heavily obscured area. According to his interpretation, creature actually "can't see" into the area, meaning the area is like a black mass for the observer.

I'd appreciate a clarification:
- what can caster actually detect in an area?
- do any of conditions apply in this case? My player claims, blinded/heavily obscured conditions do not apply, because it says "can't see" and it is "overall more badass option" of normal darkness.

@Silly Name
If the caster can't see the area, then he also should not be able to place a spells point of origin beyond border of the darkness. But, per rules, he can. So what DOES he see?

Le'ts say caster just turned the corner and had NOT seen the darkened area before darkness was cast. According to your interpretation(if I get it right), caster has no clue, what lies beyond the start of the wall of darkness. Yet heavily obscured and blinded condition imply, all terrain is detectable, as well positions of all creatures, not actively using Stealth.

As per rules(Blinded cond.), he would know a hippopotamus is there, exact position, unless hippo was stealthing.

@OldTrees1
"So, as you see it, the caster can't see the ladder move since Blinded prevents seeing inanimate objects."
But seeing a ladder does not require a check. Seeing someone stealthing in an area, requires check. Detecting someone walking, requires no check, caster knows exactly the square they are in.
By such concept, even walls of floors can not be known by the caster - darkness in front of him is only a mass of blackness.

We can use an argument "caster has seen the area before darkness fell". But what darkness fell just before caster turned a corner? Does he see only a mass of blackness? I think not. I think only Blinded and Heavily obscured apply.

@da newt
Nothing in Blinded/Heavily obscured implies, caster can not see the ladder being moved. Problem I have here is this: if caster can't detect inanimate objects, then he also has no clue on the size/shape of corridor, etc. If he just showed up and darkness was already cast, he only sees a mass of darkness, unable to place anything in it.

[Silly Name]

The description goes "A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness." So, I have a player in my group, that claims, "can't see" does not apply the Blinded Condition or Heavily obscured area. According to his interpretation, creature actually "can't see" into the area, meaning the area is like a black mass for the observer.

Is the player saying that he can see within the area, or that he can't see? Heavily Obscured/Blinded clearly say they make it impossible to rely on sight.


I'd appreciate a clarification:
- what can caster actually detect in an area?

Nothing that relies on sight. He can hear things moving within the darkness or people talking, but he can't see stuff. If there's a superstinky block of cheese, he'd smell it, but he couldn't see it.


- do any of conditions apply in this case? My player claims, blinded/heavily obscured conditions do not apply, because it says "can't see" and it is "overall more badass option" of normal darkness.

I really don't get what the player is saying here... The only special thing about magical darkness is that darkvision doesn't see through it, but it otherwise works exactly as normal darkness, meaning our hypothetical caster doesn't see anything within the area and is effectively under the Blinded condition when interacting with anything within the area of Darkness, which is an heavily obscured area.


@Silly Name
If the caster can't see the area, then he also should not be able to place a spells point of origin beyond border of the darkness. But, per rules, he can. So what DOES he see?

There's a long, long debate about what Darkness actually does, which has practically going on ever since 5e was released - I personally subscribe to the "black blob" interpretation because, IMHO, it works better within the fiction, meaning I consider the Darkness to act as a "screen" for anything behind it as well, "blocking vision entirely" as per the rules - this is not necessarily RAW, and you're free to disagree and decide that the darkness is somehow "transparent" and you can see what's outside of it no matter your relative placement.


Le'ts say caster just turned the corner and had NOT seen the darkened area before darkness was cast. According to your interpretation(if I get it right), caster has no clue, what lies beyond the start of the wall of darkness. Yet heavily obscured and blinded condition imply, all terrain is detectable, as well positions of all creatures, not actively using Stealth.

Where are you getting the part I highlighted? As I quoted, the rules state that an heavily obscured area "blocks vision entirely", and means you're effectively blinded, i.e. "can't see". The caster can't see anything in the heavily obscured area, not creatures nor what the terrain is like.


As per rules(Blinded cond.), he would know a hippopotamus is there, exact position, unless hippo was stealthing.

No, per the rules, the caster doesn't see anything in the area. At most, he could try a Perception check relying on hearing to try and detect things, but such a check could hardly give him precise information such as "dancing striped hippopotamus" - maybe he could hear "rhythmic heavy steps, as if some large creature was dancing within the darkness". But the caster wouldn't be able to know it was an hippopotamus, nor what it exactly looked like.




@da newt
Nothing in Blinded/Heavily obscured implies, caster can not see the ladder being moved. Problem I have here is this: if caster can't detect inanimate objects, then he also has no clue on the size/shape of corridor, etc. If he just showed up and darkness was already cast, he only sees a mass of darkness, unable to place anything in it.

Again,


A heavily obscured area - such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage - blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.


- A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
- Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

The rules are perfectly clear that the caster can't see anything. For anything relying on sight, he has to rely on previous information and try to extrapolate - if he saw the spell being cast, he know the dimensions of the corridor, but if he turned the corner, he doesn't - he'd have to rely on other senses, such as touch or hearing, to try and learn more about the area.

[HoboKnight]

@Sillyname
I really, really appreciate your input. What's bothering me with this, is, I think Magical darkness should apply Heavily Obscured condition and Blinded status for the guy peering in - applying to the area in darkness.

The "transparent darkness" you have mentioned. Kicking out both conditions means, targets are detected only if they move(what is the DC?). Also, my player mentioned "creature standing still" in darkness is automatically Hidden for this example.

I feel non-transparent interpretation introduces totality in game, comparable to an illusion of a black cube, being cast on the area.

[Silly Name]

The "transparent darkness" you have mentioned. Kicking out both conditions means, targets are detected only if they move(what is the DC?).

Unless the creature is basically revealing itself by making very loud noises, such as shouting, it's the caster's passive Perception versus the creature's Dexterity (Stealth) check, or an active Wisdom (Perception) check by the caster if he's actively trying to pinpoint the moving creature, opposed by the Dexterity (Stealth) check of the other creature. You can refer to the PHB, p. 177 for the rules on Hiding.


Also, my player mentioned "creature standing still" in darkness is automatically Hidden for this example

Technically yes - as long as the creature stands still and doesn't make noise, it's effectively Hidden. Now, if the caster had seen the creature standing in the space immediately before the Darkness was cast, then the caster could suppose the creature is still in the same position - but he couldn't be certain, because maybe the creature moved and the caster failed his Perception check.


@Sillyname
I really, really appreciate your input. What's bothering me with this, is, I think Magical darkness should apply Heavily Obscured condition and Blinded status for the guy peering in - applying to the area in darkness. [...] I feel non-transparent interpretation introduces totality in game, comparable to an illusion of a black cube, being cast on the area.

As I said, it effectively comes down to schools of thought - deciding whether to treat Darkness as a black blob that completely obstructs visions, much like a wall would, or as a magical effect that is effectivly "see-through" is up to you and your table to establish. Here's a link to a thread on the DNDBeyond forums about this topic (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/129501-can-you-see-a-creature-outside-of-the-darkness), so that you can read some other point of views and explanations.

(For what it's worth, I agree with the poster David42 on that thread, treating magical darkness as an inkblot, and natural darkness as it should work in the real world).

[da newt]

For what it's worth - I rule magical darkness = black fog / heavily obscured / totally opaque area.

If someone saw the area before darkness is cast, then they know the layout, otherwise (baring blindsight, tremorsense, devils sight, etc) they don't. If something moves and that makes noise, they can hear it but can't necessarily know what made the noise or the exact location of the noise (somewhere ahead and leftish).

Spells that do not say they require the spell target or origin to be seen, are not effected by a blinded caster - you can still cast it '40' from me in that direction' but if there is an unseen wall 20' in that direction which obstructs the spell's path, then the point of origin comes into being on the near side of the obstruction.

[HoboKnight]

Thanks a lot to all for help. :)

[OldTrees1]

The description goes "A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness." So, I have a player in my group, that claims, "can't see" does not apply the Blinded Condition or Heavily obscured area. According to his interpretation, creature actually "can't see" into the area, meaning the area is like a black mass for the observer.

Darkvision normally allows you to see through darkness as if it were dim light instead.
The Darkness spell says no, darkvision does not apply.

Now what does darkness create such that darkvision does not work? That was left to DM rulings. There is historical precedent for it being an black mass but it is up to the DM. Another interpretation is that it makes the area transparent so you can see things beyond it, but not inside it.

I prefer the inky black dot interpretation, but it is a GM's call.




@OldTrees1
"So, as you see it, the caster can't see the ladder move since Blinded prevents seeing inanimate objects."
But seeing a ladder does not require a check. Seeing someone stealthing in an area, requires check. Detecting someone walking, requires no check, caster knows exactly the square they are in.
By such concept, even walls of floors can not be known by the caster - darkness in front of him is only a mass of blackness.

We can use an argument "caster has seen the area before darkness fell". But what darkness fell just before caster turned a corner? Does he see only a mass of blackness? I think not. I think only Blinded and Heavily obscured apply.


A blinded creature can't see
They can't see the ladder since they can't see anything inside the darkness.

Yes, the caster cannot see the walls or floors within the area of the Darkness spell.

If Blinded applies, then the caster cannot see. It is not "when blind you can see everything except if it used to require a perception check". No, blinded is a flat "They can't see."

So the caster "can't see" the ladder. You asked if the caster is aware of the ladder. Well, they can't see it (Blinded with respect to anything within the Heavy Obscured area) but they have senses beyond their sight. Did they hear it move? How much sound did it make and was their hearing keen enough to notice where it ended up? If the outcome is in doubt, that sounds like a Perception check to me.