Warlocks' Create Thrall and spells that say "While the target is Charmed..."

[Segev]

Create Thrall is a bit notorious for being rather weak. The best use prior to now for it as far as I could tell was making a permanent telepathic link with another PC or using it to try to make unending social checks agaisnt the taret until he acquiesced to liking you.

But! It inflicts the Charmed condition with unlimited duration.

Various spells state that "the Charmed creature" (or similar wording) has additional effects on it. They regard you as a friendly acquaintance, or are compelled to obey, or the like.

None of these effects say the Charm has to come from that spell, and they generally frame the saving throw as preventing the Charm effect the spell lays on them.

Does this mean that you can cast charm person or dominate person on your Thrall and, even if he makes the save, he is affected by the "while the target is Charmed" clause? Essentially, the feature doesn't give you a mind slave, not directly, but anything that uses Charm as the vector for a broader condition is, essentially, automatically effective! Assuming I am not misreading this.

[JNAProductions]

Create Thrall is a bit notorious for being rather weak. The best use prior to now for it as far as I could tell was making a permanent telepathic link with another PC or using it to try to make unending social checks agaisnt the taret until he acquiesced to liking you.

But! It inflicts the Charmed condition with unlimited duration.

Various spells state that "the Charmed creature" (or similar wording) has additional effects on it. They regard you as a friendly acquaintance, or are compelled to obey, or the like.

None of these effects say the Charm has to come from that spell, and they generally frame the saving throw as preventing the Charm effect the spell lays on them.

Does this mean that you can cast charm person or dominate person on your Thrall and, even if he makes the save, he is affected by the "while the target is Charmed" clause? Essentially, the feature doesn't give you a mind slave, not directly, but anything that uses Charm as the vector for a broader condition is, essentially, automatically effective! Assuming I am not misreading this.

That might technically be RAW (I looked at Dominate and it does not specify "while Charmed in this way/by this spell/anything else like that") but I would run it by the DM before you rely on it.

It feels much more like an unintended interaction or oversight than a legitimate tactic.

Admittedly, given that it needs an incapacitated target... Probably not OVERPOWERED, due to being niche... But I still don't think I'd allow it.

[Rukelnikov]

The thing is, by that reading, it doesn't even need to be charmed by you, Alice casts charm person on Bob, it sticks now Bob is charmed, then Charlie casts Dominate person on Bob, it doesn't stick, but he is charmed nonetheless, because of Alice's Charm Person, so... is Charlie now dominating Bob because of Alice's Charm Person?

[Mastikator]

Perhaps Create Thrall is supposed to create an enchantment zombie?

[Segev]

My suspicion is that the intent of Create Thrall was more a permanent charm person or dominate person, anyway, and either the effect of the Charmed condition changed but the editors/writers didn't have a chance to or remember to change Create Thrall, or the writer of Create Thrall thought the Charmed condition did more than it does.

This "new discovery" I posted this thread on is another possible way it's meant to work, but is unlikely since it is so fiddly and relies on spells being worded a particular way that the feature doesn't mention.


That might technically be RAW (I looked at Dominate and it does not specify "while Charmed in this way/by this spell/anything else like that") but I would run it by the DM before you rely on it.

It feels much more like an unintended interaction or oversight than a legitimate tactic.

Admittedly, given that it needs an incapacitated target... Probably not OVERPOWERED, due to being niche... But I still don't think I'd allow it.
What do you rule Create Thrall does, in and of itself, without this "exploit," out of curiosity?

[JonBeowulf]

I'd allow it as long as the charmed condition came from something your character did (interpret the wording as "charmed by you"). I'd also let you know that I may change my mind once we see it play out a few times.

[Rukelnikov]

My GOOlock never got to lvl 14th, but when discussing this ability with my friend that DMed that character, we agreed it would work akin to Dracula's charm, that is the Thrall is basically eager to be of help to you, and is willing to risk going to jail or similar trying to earn your praise/favor/notice.

[JNAProductions]

What do you rule Create Thrall does, in and of itself, without this "exploit," out of curiosity?

Not very much-it's not a great feature. But this...


My GOOlock never got to lvl 14th, but when discussing this ability with my friend that DMed that character, we agreed it would work akin to Dracula's charm, that is the Thrall is basically eager to be of help to you, and is willing to risk going to jail or similar trying to earn your praise/favor/notice.

Is a good idea to make it worthwhile.

[Sigreid]

My GOOlock never got to lvl 14th, but when discussing this ability with my friend that DMed that character, we agreed it would work akin to Dracula's charm, that is the Thrall is basically eager to be of help to you, and is willing to risk going to jail or similar trying to earn your praise/favor/notice.

I think it's under rated. I mean if you use it on say, the king's chief advisor you can make a lot of hay out of it.

[Segev]

I think it's under rated. I mean if you use it on say, the king's chief advisor you can make a lot of hay out of it.

Could you, though?

Consider an NPC using it on your PC. You know what the Charmed condition does. You know you're under the effect. Do you assume the condition does more than it says it does? Or do you allow yourself to react with anger and loathing for this person who is trying to enslave you? Sure, he has advantage on checks to try to talk you around, but you're probalby starting out hostile, aren't you?

And, if you don't think so, what do you do when the DM says the chief advisor to the king starts out hostile to you? And he finds your mental invasion to be reason to stay that way. Do you suppose he'll avoid telling the King he's been compromised? Possible; it would impede his position. But that only works if you find a lacky who isn't loyal to the King already. And even then, he still can just keep stonewalling you. You're only able to persuade him as well as the nonmagical persuasion rules allow, after all. With advantage, sure, but...that's it.

[Sigreid]

I'm afb, but I don't recall it saying the person knows you charmed them. Seriously, you don't see how the kings advisor basically thinking you're this fine, upstanding and trustworthy person, assuming you have a decent persuasion skill, or being flipping terrified of you if you chose the intimidation route could be exploited?

[JackPhoenix]

I'm afb, but I don't recall it saying the person knows you charmed them. Seriously, you don't see how the kings advisor basically thinking you're this fine, upstanding and trustworthy person, assuming you have a decent persuasion skill, or being flipping terrified of you if you chose the intimidation route could be exploited?

Any non-warlock caster (warlock's the only one without it on its list... even half-casters get it) can achieve the same effect (advantage on Cha checks) with Enhance Ability, without any danger of the mind control being discovered, and with no need to catch the advisor unconscious. You don't even need that, the advantage just make things easier, you can achieve the same thing with just a lucky roll.

[Segev]

Good point on it not saying they know you Charmed them. Need to either not use or find a good excuse for the telepathic link, and you might be on to something.

[Tanarii]

Sleeping creatures are unconcious, which means they are incapacitated. So they don't even necessarily know you used the ability on them, if you can get to them while they are asleep. All they know is there is a persuasive voice in their head in that case.

And since it's unlimited range and effect, you have all the time in the world to persuade them to do what you want.

Also it doesn't detect as a magic spell on them or on you, in cases where that might matter.

[JackPhoenix]

Sleeping creatures are unconcious, which means they are incapacitated. So they don't even necessarily know you used the ability on them, if you can get to them while they are asleep. All they know is there is a persuasive voice in their head in that case.

And since it's unlimited range and effect, you have all the time in the world to persuade them to do what you want.

Also it doesn't detect as a magic spell on them or on you, in cases where that might matter.

Is's not a SPELL (so it can't be dispeled), but it's magic ("you gain the ability to infect a humanoid's mind with the alien magic of your patron"), so Detect Magic still works fine.

[Sigreid]

Good point on it not saying they know you Charmed them. Need to either not use or find a good excuse for the telepathic link, and you might be on to something.
In a standard D&D world, someone being able to speak to you telepathically at range isn't that weird.