How strong is an Ogre, really?

[Mongobear]

Trying to figure something out in a more scientific/realistic manner, looking for help/math wizards to punch some numbers.

How much more physically powerful is something like an Ogre (19 STR, Large size) compared to a Medium creature like a Human with the same STR, and a Medium creature with Powerful Build and the same strength?

Having the "smaller" creature with PB be identically powerful to an Ogre feels like there's something im missing that should make the Ogre physically stronger, but I can't find it in any rulebook/resource.

What I am looking at trying to justify/accomplish, is that Powerful Build merely bridges the gap, and not matches the next size up.

Basically, all things equal in terms of strength scores, regular Medium < Medium w/ Powerful Build < Large size < Large size w/ Powerful Build... etc

Powerful Build makes you "half again" as strong as others of equal size, but it doesn't quite match members of the larger species. Is this sort of thing out of the realm of acceptable? Is there something out there that you can show me that despite the same "physical power" an Ogre exerts less effort, only uses 1 hand, isnt nearly as strained by said effort, etc? I'm not changing the combat implications, a 20 is a 20 regardless of if you're the size of a Halfling or a Cloud Giant, I merely want to know if there is room or a pre-existing rule/variant that makes Larger creatures are more physically powerful/capable than smaller ones with "counts as" traits.

[GeoffWatson]

They can lift/carry more weight.

[Mongobear]

They can lift/carry more weight.

Not according to the carrying capacity rules, unless Im missing something.

A Goliath with an identical Strength to an Ogre has an identical maximum for all of the carrying limits.

This is the part I have issue with, and wonder if there is an entry/variant somewhere that fixes carrying capacities to make Size more important than traits like Powerful Build.

[Dienekes]

As far as I’m aware there’s nothing that would make a large character different in carrying capacity to a medium with powerful build.

That said, you could break up the weights like this

Medium: 1
M.Powerful: 2
Large: 3
L.Powerful: 4
Huge: 5
Huge.Poweful: 6
Gargantuan: 7

As an added bonus. This makes the carrying capacity of the elephant actually closer to real life than the current one. Though it would make horses carry a bit more than they really should.

But, eh. I don’t think it’d break anything.

This is one of those changes that probably don’t matter all that much to balance. Sure someone will probably point out it makes growing to large size better. But, meh. That’s not really all that important.

[Arkhios]

Trying to figure something out in a more scientific/realistic manner, looking for help/math wizards to punch some numbers.

How much more physically powerful is something like an Ogre (19 STR, Large size) compared to a Medium creature like a Human with the same STR, and a Medium creature with Powerful Build and the same strength?

Having the "smaller" creature with PB be identically powerful to an Ogre feels like there's something im missing that should make the Ogre physically stronger, but I can't find it in any rulebook/resource.

What I am looking at trying to justify/accomplish, is that Powerful Build merely bridges the gap, and not matches the next size up.

Basically, all things equal in terms of strength scores, regular Medium < Medium w/ Powerful Build < Large size < Large size w/ Powerful Build... etc

Powerful Build makes you "half again" as strong as others of equal size, but it doesn't quite match members of the larger species. Is this sort of thing out of the realm of acceptable? Is there something out there that you can show me that despite the same "physical power" an Ogre exerts less effort, only uses 1 hand, isnt nearly as strained by said effort, etc? I'm not changing the combat implications, a 20 is a 20 regardless of if you're the size of a Halfling or a Cloud Giant, I merely want to know if there is room or a pre-existing rule/variant that makes Larger creatures are more physically powerful/capable than smaller ones with "counts as" traits.

In terms of 5e, it quickly becomes evident that inhumane strength is more readily represented by increased number of damage dice or carrying capacity increase, rather than raw strength score. You'd have to look at very high CR creatures to even begin to find a strength score above 20.

TBH, this is somewhat ridiculous, as I concur it feels strange to have a medium sized humanoid being as strong as a giant (Large or larger), despite being able to roll less dice for damage, by default.
On the other hand, it doesn't bother me so much so that I'd feel it should be different.

[GeoffWatson]

Not according to the carrying capacity rules, unless Im missing something.

A Goliath with an identical Strength to an Ogre has an identical maximum for all of the carrying limits.

This is the part I have issue with, and wonder if there is an entry/variant somewhere that fixes carrying capacities to make Size more important than traits like Powerful Build.

Quoting the rules under Strength:
Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

[Arkhios]

Quoting the rules under Strength:
Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

This. Besides, Goliaths being able to stand shoulder to shoulder with true giants is an exception to the generic rule, not baseline. And that's FINE.

[Mongobear]

Quoting the rules under Strength:
Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

Yes, and Powerful Build literally makes the creature count as the next size up for these purposes. That Goliath with a 19 strength? Identical weight limits to the larger Ogre.

This isn't necessarily a problem, but I am trying to figure out if there is room to expand the difference so that PB or similar traits are more of a halfway point than an equal boost.

[Anymage]

In 3e there was a lot more room for stats to scale upwards. An average ogre had a 21 strength, an elephant had a 30, and giants ranged from 25 to 39. The problem was that with the way numbers could scale, it wasn't too difficult for there to be more than a 20 point spread between a specialist and an average charactet, with the d20 being much less relevant than modifiers. If you think a 31 passive perception is frustrating, you probably don't want to meet the character who can talk to an enemy and be guaranteed to turn them into a staunch ally even on if the dice rolls a 1. 5e compressed the numbers so that the dice is relatively more meaningful, but that did necessarily mean that there's less room to scale high end monsters.

[Mongobear]

In 3e there was a lot more room for stats to scale upwards. An average ogre had a 21 strength, an elephant had a 30, and giants ranged from 25 to 39. The problem was that with the way numbers could scale, it wasn't too difficult for there to be more than a 20 point spread between a specialist and an average charactet, with the d20 being much less relevant than modifiers. If you think a 31 passive perception is frustrating, you probably don't want to meet the character who can talk to an enemy and be guaranteed to turn them into a staunch ally even on if the dice rolls a 1. 5e compressed the numbers so that the dice is relatively more meaningful, but that did necessarily mean that there's less room to scale high end monsters.

I am well aware of 3.0/3.5e's mechanics, I played it from its original inception all the way through 4e until 5e was launched.

[Leon]

Strong enough to earn a magic item named after them

[OldTrees1]

Yes, and Powerful Build literally makes the creature count as the next size up for these purposes. That Goliath with a 19 strength? Identical weight limits to the larger Ogre.

This isn't necessarily a problem, but I am trying to figure out if there is room to expand the difference so that PB or similar traits are more of a halfway point than an equal boost.

1)
The difference between a Goliath and an Ogre is that the Goliath is to "12" Str as the Ogre is to 19. An exceptionally strong Goliath will be exactly as strong as a run of the mill Ogre. That is the assumptions that the D&D ability scores work under, a 14 is a 14 is a 14.

So maybe consider Ogres with 12-29 Str (or at least 9-24 Str). They don't all have to be 19 Str.

2)
Goliaths are Large creatures shrunk down to the upper height/width limit of medium size without decreasing in Strength. Powerful build is there to represent the parts of Large Size they still possess. So it does make sense for a Powerful Build 19 Str to be identical to a Large Size 19 Str for the areas PB covers. Just be stingy about handing out PB and you will be fine.


Edit: Oh, from another of your posts it seems you are well aware of both of these notes.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, and Powerful Build literally makes the creature count as the next size up for these purposes. That Goliath with a 19 strength? Identical weight limits to the larger Ogre.

This isn't necessarily a problem, but I am trying to figure out if there is room to expand the difference so that PB or similar traits are more of a halfway point than an equal boost.

The whole point of Powerful Build is to make so there is no difference, assuming equal strength.

That being said, given that the average humanoid has 10 STR while being Medium-sized and the average Ogre has 19 STR while being Large-sized, it's pretty clear that the averagw Ogre is incredibly strong and can only be matched by heroic individuals of specific strength-specialized species.

[Osuniev]

I merely want to know if there is room or a pre-existing rule/variant that makes Larger creatures are more physically powerful/capable than smaller ones with "counts as" traits.

Well I was about to quote the fact that you get Advantage to Grappling checks... and then realized that's only when size is transformed by Enlarge/Reduce, NOT when it's a natural difference in size.

The only representation of "different size means different strength" is found in the dice rolled during an attack :

Size Large :
- the club of an Ogre does 2d8+STR instead of 1d8+STR
- the Javelin of an Ogre does 2d6+STR instead of 1d6+STR

Size Huge :
- the club of an Hill Giant does 3d8+STR

this is consistent throughout (most of) the MM, and is codified in the DMG p.227 :


Big monsters typically wield oversized weapons that deal extra dice of damage on a hit. Double the weapon dice if the creature is Large, triple the weapon dice if it's Huge, and quadruple the weapon dice if it's Gargantuan. For example, a Huge giant wielding an appropriately sized greataxe deals 3d12 slashing damage (plus its Strength bonus), instead of the normal 1d12.

A creature has disadvantage on attack rolls with a weapon that is sized for a larger attacker. You can rule that a weapon sized for an attacker two or more sizes larger is too big for the creature to use at all

[JackPhoenix]

5e rules are written with the... medium or small only... PCs in mind. Monsters are an afterthought, any only relevant in their relation to players.

[diplomancer]

Three ways:

-they can't be grappled/shoved by a small creature
-they can move through the space of a hostile small creature
-their attack does a lot more damage.

That's about it, unless you start adding the combat options in the DMG (where size is relevant for different actions, many times because of assumed greater physical power- for example, if a Goliath tried to Disarm an Ogre, the Ogre would have advantage on its Athletics check against the Goliath's attack roll).

[Willie the Duck]

5e rules are written with the... medium or small only... PCs in mind. Monsters are an afterthought, any only relevant in their relation to players.
Honestly, this is the first and foremost thing to recognize. The mechanics of 5e are decidedly PC-framing-centric, complete with contradictions or irregularities that incurs (cue long argument about dragon turtles that can't drag a 4-ton Hippo) when you leave the PC's general scale. Obviously you can try to back-strapolate strength from carrying capacity, but the results are going to be unsatisfying.


Three ways:
-they can't be grappled/shoved by a small creature
-they can move through the space of a hostile small creature
-their attack does a lot more damage.
That's about it, unless you start adding the combat options in the DMG (where size is relevant for different actions, many times because of assumed greater physical power- for example, if a Goliath tried to Disarm an Ogre, the Ogre would have advantage on its Athletics check against the Goliath's attack roll).
This broadly (finding things other than carrying capacity) would be how I did it as well.


This isn't necessarily a problem, but I am trying to figure out if there is room to expand the difference so that PB or similar traits are more of a halfway point than an equal boost.
The things diplomancer mentions, or that kind of thing. 5e (in the form of bounded accuracy deliberately tried to remove a bunch of room out from between things, for legitimate reason but also with real consequences.

Edit: I just had a thought. Why not change the ogre? Given how many complaints I've heard about carrying capacity for size L+ creatures, why not give them a boost and keep the goliaths and firbolgs the same? Have it something like:
"Powerful Build. Double your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift."
"Size and Strength [under 'Lifting and Carrying' rules]. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, quadruples the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. "

That would give ogres something that those with powerful build don't have, plus give the dragon turtle a verisimilitude-maintaining 24-ton dragging ability. It would double a horse's carrying capacity as well, which might be an unintended effect, but some other modification (such as mounts always using the optional encumbrance rules, or the like) might tame that down again (or not, if you like the change).

[da newt]

short answer - no difference RAW between a goliath 19 st and ogre 19 st. This is where the DM can step in and tweak things. House rule powerful build allow you to carry / lift 50% more - done.

[KorvinStarmast]

5e rules are written with the... medium or small only... PCs in mind. Monsters are an afterthought, any only relevant in their relation to players. Can't plus this enough.

Also, I liked the point that average human is STR 10 and average Ogre is STR 19.
I can see an above average ogre having a 21 STR and it making little difference overall.
(FWIW, a Goliath who Single Class into Barbarian can get a 24 STR at Level 20).

[Joe the Rat]

Let's see...

Increased size gets you:
* Mass and leverage, allowing you to hit with bigger, weightier sticks. Sort of the inversion of Small creatures and "Heavy" weapons.
* Roughly a doubling of height, a quadrupling of muscle cross-section, and an octupling of weight. Getting comparatively lower capacity in relation to your own size meets physics nicely. Ignoring the whole "giants existing and not being massivley bottom-heavy" part.

Quadrupliing lift/carry/drag could help keep some of the fantasy of big things. As-is a longsword, appropriately sized, goes from "weighing" 0.2 Strength points (Medium) to 0.8 Str (Large), 3.2 Str (Huge), and 12.8 Str (Gargantuan) - and that's assuming you don't chonk it up so it can actually support itself.

Looking another way: For a Medium creature, using 14 Str (which is a typical martial-inclined NPC score), a 3lb longsword is almost 1.5% of their carry capacity. A Giant's lonsword weighs around 192lb, which at 25 Str (roughly the middle) is 12.8% of carry capacity. For that Str 30 titan? A longsword is 3/4 ton, or 42% of what they can carry. If you go with quadrupling on each scale-up, the longsword goes from 1.5% to 3.2% for the giant, and 5% for that titan.

It also means Tiny drops to carrying 3.75 lb per strength point, which will reduce the number of Pseudodragon Jet Packs significantly.
If you keep Powerful build and Bearbarians at doubling, it would be okay. And could get into some fun interplay with size changing.

(As a side note, I add doubling lift/carry to Giant Belts in my games, just to give it a little extra oomph)

[Segev]

In 3e, the ogres' increased strength as a race was represented by the fact that that 19 strength was an average, the way 10 is human average. Ogres had a +8 racial bonus to strength (and the average one was presumed to have put a base 11 into it).

There is, as has been said, little to no problem with Goliaths, who explicitly have a feature for counting as Large creatures wrt strength-based and grapple-based shenanigans, being on par with Ogres if the Goliath has the abnormally high strength score of 18 or 19.

Again, the average ogre will be that strong: Large with a 19 in Strength. The average Goliath only has a 12 strength and counts as Large for many Strength-related purposes. The 19 Strength Goliath is relatively rare (PC commonality notwithstanding). An ogre with 20 Strength is going to risk being a higher CR, but arguably is as common as a Goliath with a 13 or 14 Strength. While pushing an ogre's strength into Cloud Giant territory might feel awkward, you could reasonably do so, for the ogre equivalent to an 18-strength human. Alternatively, you could assign a lower strength (20 is actually probably fine) and Powerful Build. Or another special trait to represent unusual lifting capacity.

[MoiMagnus]

Again, the average ogre will be that strong: Large with a 19 in Strength. The average Goliath only has a 12 strength and counts as Large for many Strength-related purposes. The 19 Strength Goliath is relatively rare (PC commonality notwithstanding). An ogre with 20 Strength is going to risk being a higher CR, but arguably is as common as a Goliath with a 13 or 14 Strength. While pushing an ogre's strength into Cloud Giant territory might feel awkward, you could reasonably do so, for the ogre equivalent to an 18-strength human. Alternatively, you could assign a lower strength (20 is actually probably fine) and Powerful Build. Or another special trait to represent unusual lifting capacity.

Yes. Quickly going through "third-party" ogres I can find online, I've managed to find one of them at 27 strength (Ogre Glutton CR9 from "Legendary Planet Adventure Path") and a variety of them higher than 20.

(I've not found any weaker than the "average" of 19, but I've not found many humans stat blocks with less than their "average" of 10 in their stats either.)

[JackPhoenix]

Yes. Quickly going through "third-party" ogres I can find online, I've managed to find one of them at 27 strength (Ogre Glutton CR9 from "Legendary Planet Adventure Path") and a variety of them higher than 20.

(I've not find any weaker than the "average" of 19, but I've not found many humans stat blocks with less than their "average" of 10 in their stats either.)

Against the Giants part of TftYP has young ogres, who simply use orc statblocks (and thus have Str 16). Similarly, it's got hill giant servants who use ogre stat blocks.