Tripping a grappler?

[Swaoeaeieu]

Hello All,

In yesterdays session someone got grappled by a zombie, because we are weak and panicking, we decided to try and shove (trip) the zombie.
Grapples end when the person who is grappled makes a check to escape, or when the grappler and grappled are somehow removed from eachother, like forced movement.
But what happens when we trip the zombie, is our ally no longer grappled, or do they go prone too and are still grappled?

In the moment we went with the ruling that the grapple is broken, but we would like to know what the actual rules are for future zombie encounters

thanks in advance!

[solidork]

I'd rule that they're still grappled but not knocked prone.

In this instance you likely could have shoved the zombie away to break the grapple using the same kind of check and everything.

[JNAProductions]

Shoving a creature prone gives it the prone condition.
Since it doesn't move the creature from its space, it wouldn't break the grapple.

Hope the session went well!

[Osuniev]

In this instance you likely could have shoved the zombie away to break the grapple using the same kind of check and everything.

Exactly. Unless it was a Trip manoeuver from a class feature, you could just have pushed the Zombie away, avoiding even the Opportunity Attacks.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Shoving a creature prone gives it the prone condition.
Since it doesn't move the creature from its space, it wouldn't break the grapple.

Hope the session went well!

Ah ok, so just follow the letter of the rules then. makes sense, we just werent sure and i could not find an answer with some googling.

session went... ok, for a zombie apocalypse game... it was fun though :P

thanks everyone, i considder my question answered now.

[JackPhoenix]

I'd rule that they're still grappled but not knocked prone.

In this instance you likely could have shoved the zombie away to break the grapple using the same kind of check and everything.


Exactly. Unless it was a Trip manoeuver from a class feature, you could just have pushed the Zombie away, avoiding even the Opportunity Attacks.

Arguably, the rules seems to suggest that shoving the grappler doesn't help, as it can drag the grappled creature with it. You'd want to shove the graplee away from the zombie.

[JonBeowulf]

Ah ok, so just follow the letter of the rules then. makes sense, we just werent sure and i could not find an answer with some googling.

session went... ok, for a zombie apocalypse game... it was fun though :P

thanks everyone, i considder my question answered now.

I agree that the zombie is prone but the grapple is still in effect. I don't understand why you went for a shove instead of just escaping the grapple... it's the same check in your case.
Shove: STR(Athletics) vs STR(Athletics) or DEX(Acrobatics)
Escape: STR(Athletics) or DEX(Acrobatics) vs STR(Athletics)

Since you shoved, you used STR(Athletics) so you could have just escaped the grapple and run away. Then again, a prone zombie is an easy target for melee attacks. So, if it worked, then it was the right thing to do.


Arguably, the rules seems to suggest that shoving the grappler doesn't help, as it can drag the grappled creature with it. You'd want to shove the graplee away from the zombie.
I disagree... at least for now. Maintaining a grapple consumes one of your attacks and moving a grappled target is done during your move. Allowing a grappled target to try to maintain the grapple while it being force-moved can open the door to all sorts of make-a-skill-check-on-not-your-turn silliness. I can only think of two rolls you make when it's not your turn: saving throws and the back half of a contested skill check.

[JackPhoenix]

I agree that the zombie is prone but the grapple is still in effect. I don't understand why you went for a shove instead of just escaping the grapple... it's the same check in your case.
Shove: STR(Athletics) vs STR(Athletics) or DEX(Acrobatics)
Escape: STR(Athletics) or DEX(Acrobatics) vs STR(Athletics)

Since you shoved, you used STR(Athletics) so you could have just escaped the grapple and run away. Then again, a prone zombie is an easy target for melee attacks. So, if it worked, then it was the right thing to do.

From the OP, the shover was not the grappled character.


I disagree... at least for now. Maintaining a grapple consumes one of your attacks and moving a grappled target is done during your move. Allowing a grappled target to try to maintain the grapple while it being force-moved can open the door to all sorts of make-a-skill-check-on-not-your-turn silliness. I can only think of two rolls you make when it's not your turn: saving throws and the back half of a contested skill check.

There's no action cost for maintaining a grapple, only for starting it. As for movement, "When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you". Note that it does not specifies anything about moving on your turn, or having to use your movement (but if you do, the movement cost is doubled).
There's no "make-a skill-check-on-not-your-turn sillines", as you put it. You make an ability check (or any other check, really) when the GM tells you to, whose turn it is is entirely irrelevant.

[JonBeowulf]

From the OP, the shover was not the grappled character.
"is our ally no longer grappled"... I missed it.


There's no action cost for maintaining a grapple, only for starting it. As for movement, "When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you". Note that it does not specifies anything about moving on your turn, or having to use your movement (but if you do, the movement cost is doubled).
There's no "make-a skill-check-on-not-your-turn sillines", as you put it. You make an ability check (or any other check, really) when the GM tells you to, whose turn it is is entirely irrelevant.

By "maintain a grapple", I meant when grappler is forced moved so rolls to try move the grapplee with it. But you're right, movement just happens at half speed... which kind of ruins things like Repelling Blast. We're splitting hairs here, but I consider "when you move" and "when you are moved" to be mechanically different. Obviously DMs run the table however they choose, but reactions are typically the only thing I allow when it's not your turn.

[JackPhoenix]

By "maintain a grapple", I meant when grappler is forced moved so rolls to try move the grapplee with it. But you're right, movement just happens at half speed... which kind of ruins things like Repelling Blast. We're splitting hairs here, but I consider "when you move" and "when you are moved" to be mechanically different. Obviously DMs run the table however they choose, but reactions are typically the only thing I allow when it's not your turn.

There's no roll to move the graplee. The grappler simply moves, and the graplee is dragged (or carried) along. And Repelling Blast is not affected, because it does not use the grappler's move. Neither does sitting on a mount... and your rulling would mean you're unable to drag along a grappled creature while you're mounted.

[VladSlavhinsky]

From the rules I agree with those who say that the grip is not interrupted, but I think it can also be very situational. In the role of the master while considering the RAW very clear on the matter, I found myself ignoring it in favor of the logic of the situation, to maintain a certain narrative coherence.

[RSP]

There's no roll to move the graplee. The grappler simply moves, and the graplee is dragged (or carried) along. And Repelling Blast is not affected, because it does not use the grappler's move. Neither does sitting on a mount... and your rulling would mean you're unable to drag along a grappled creature while you're mounted.

Why would Shove to Prone the grappler move the grapplee, but RBing the grappler wouldn’t move the grapplee? Neither uses the grappler’s move.

If you’re comparing grappling to mounting rules, knocking the mount Prone separates the mount and rider:

“If your mount is knocked prone, you can use your reaction to dismount it as it falls and land on your feet. Otherwise, you are dismounted and fall prone in a space within 5 feet it.“

[NecessaryWeevil]

"The [Grappled] condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away the the thunderwave spell."
("Grappled," Appendix A: Conditions, PHB 290).

I haven't seen any mention of this passage yet, but it would seem to be relevant.

[RSP]

"The [Grappled] condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away the the thunderwave spell."
("Grappled," Appendix A: Conditions, PHB 290).

I haven't seen any mention of this passage yet, but it would seem to be relevant.

Knocking the grappler Prone doesn’t remove the grappled creature from the (game term) reach of the grappler.

However, a DM could certainly rule knocking the grappler prone removes the grappled creature from their (common English language usage) reach.

So that rule only applies if you’re reading “reach” not as a game term (which I think it is).

[Hytheter]

If you ask me, it would make more sense for the grappled creature to fall prone alongside their grappler than for the grapple to end.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Okay both grappling and shoving use athletics(strength) checks. So forget shoving, and forget knocking someone prone.

Using a athletics(strength) check to break someone else's grapple should be perfectly fine.

[RSP]

If you ask me, it would make more sense for the grappled creature to fall prone alongside their grappler than for the grapple to end.

Could, depending on the situation: two humanoids, one grappling the other, the grappler falls and takes down the person they’re grappling. I’d say they’re probably no longer grappling though.

However, a Roper grappling someone through their Tendrils ability? I’d say the grapplee isn’t pulled down.

Could be an interesting Reaction use by the grapplee though: if they get knocked Prone, they can use a Reaction to attempt a Shove to bring their grapplee to Prone with them: if grapplee beats the grappler on the contest roll, they’re no longer grappled. If the grappler wins the contest roll, the grapplee is Prone and still grappled.

[JackPhoenix]

Why would Shove to Prone the grappler move the grapplee, but RBing the grappler wouldn’t move the grapplee? Neither uses the grappler’s move.

What? Where did you get that? I never said any of that.


If you’re comparing grappling to mounting rules, knocking the mount Prone separates the mount and rider:

“If your mount is knocked prone, you can use your reaction to dismount it as it falls and land on your feet. Otherwise, you are dismounted and fall prone in a space within 5 feet it.“

And? How is that relevant to anything I've said?

[RSP]

What? Where did you get that? I never said any of that.

From what I quoted:


There's no roll to move the graplee. The grappler simply moves, and the graplee is dragged (or carried) along. And Repelling Blast is not affected, because it does not use the grappler's move. Neither does sitting on a mount... and your rulling would mean you're unable to drag along a grappled creature while you're mounted.

Moving the grapple has no roll, however, RB does interact with the grappling rolls. It was quoted up thread: if the grappler and grapplee are separated by more than the grappler’s reach, the grapple ends.

As you mentioned mounted rules in regards to grappling, I went into the comparison.

Whether a DM decides being mounted (and having the mount move) is an effect that moves the rider away from the grappled character, such as Thunderwave, is up to the DM, but it may well mean that a mounted character is incapable of dragging a grappled character.

[JackPhoenix]

Moving the grapple has no roll, however, RB does interact with the grappling rolls. It was quoted up thread: if the grappler and grapplee are separated by more than the grappler’s reach, the grapple ends.

Yes, and if the grappler moves, he can drag or carry the grapplee along. You can push the grapplee away from the grappler, but moving the grappler doesn't work, because he can just take the victim with him.

[RSP]

Yes, and if the grappler moves, he can drag or carry the grapplee along. You can push the grapplee away from the grappler, but moving the grappler doesn't work, because he can just take the victim with him.

So are you proposing that if you RB a grappler, the grappler can choose to carry the grappled character the 10’ they moved?

[MadBear]

Yes, and if the grappler moves, he can drag or carry the grapplee along. You can push the grapplee away from the grappler, but moving the grappler doesn't work, because he can just take the victim with him.

In that case, how do you square what you're saying here with what is written in the appendix? Should the thunderwave spell cast on a enemy grappling an ally, not work, despite what the actual book says? I think you're interpreting that rule in an abnormal way. I'll just point out, you can also find many forum posts and advice boards, talking of how repelling blast can break the grappled condition, which it seems like you're saying won't work.

[JackPhoenix]

In that case, how do you square what you're saying here with what is written in the appendix? Should the thunderwave spell cast on a enemy grappling an ally, not work, despite what the actual book says? I think you're interpreting that rule in an abnormal way. I'll just point out, you can also find many forum posts and advice boards, talking of how repelling blast can break the grappled condition, which it seems like you're saying won't work.

What I'm saying is perfectly consistent with the appendix: "The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell." Emphasis mine: It uses the term "creature" for the grapplee and the Thunderwave's target, but NOT for the grappler.

[RSP]

What I'm saying is perfectly consistent with the appendix: "The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell." Emphasis mine: It uses the term "creature" for the grapplee and the Thunderwave's target, but NOT for the grappler.

So, you’re suggesting the grappler isn’t a creature? Seems like a thin platform to stand on.