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StickMan
2007-12-05, 09:45 PM
With all the time I've spent on this board I've noticed that there are Two perfect classes it seems the Rogue and the Barbarian. These class never get nerfed and there is never a fix for one of them. Variant rules of course come up for both at times, but in general little work is done to these classes. My question is why are these two classes so perfect in game balance, play and in general?





Clarification:
This is not how ever to say they are the most powerful classes.

AslanCross
2007-12-05, 10:14 PM
My take on it is that they fulfill the following:

1. They don't step on other classes' toes (though the Barbarian sort of does this to the Fighter)
2. They aren't overly powerful. (See 1)
3. They will always find a use.
4. Conversely, they are not useful in all situations. (also corollary to 1) There are times when the Barbarian's overwhelming strength will not help. The rogue's utility in the group depends on his build. Naturally, a cat burglar will not help much on an open battlefield fighting undead. A diplomat wouldn't avail much against mindless vermin.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-05, 10:25 PM
Actually, I think the barbarian is missing a fair amount from a flavour perspective. Rage is given too much of a role compared with its role in the main barbarian inspiration, simple, awe-inspiring toughness on an every-day level, especially their resilience to magic, is left largely un-recognized. Given the vast over-power of magic-using classes, a character with more power at resisting them wouldn't hurt balance, either. Also, the closest to a caster killer class, really, in core, is the monk, which doesn't kill much of anything. Trap sense and Uncanny Dodge are comendable inclusions, though, away from the SWING AXE RAAGH vein that barbarians seem otherwise trapped in, with a bit of the Conan fluff they're going for.
I always regarded Barbarians as the defensive answer to a fighter. They don't have the weapon skill to do massive damage, but they don't quit. Weapons don't stop them until their body is in more pieces than their int score can coutn to, magic washes over them like bathwater. Rage, as it is written, causes them to quit, rather than helps them not. It gives them a moment of not quitting, then makes them all tired. Rage should be a much more rare ability. For all his reputation, if one is to read Robert E. Howard's Conan works, he's calm pretty much all the time. He only really flies into a rage a few times, in all the stories (not a few in each, a few total). They should get rage when they would actually be enraged, low HP, death of a comrade, BBEG, and other dramatic situations. Although that's just my storytelling, rather than mechanical, focus speaking. Barbarians are, in my mind and most of the base fluff, the ultimate survivors. Fighters should max strength, Barbarians constitution. They're missing some key abilities to surviving, along with better saves, and Rage counters this and makes them confusing, as a class, as its an inherently offensive ability that works to take a barbarian out of a fight much more often than keep him in it. The barbarian should never, ever retreat, and that should be a viable strategy with the class.

fireinthedust
2007-12-05, 10:42 PM
Well, the artificer can do the trap/lockpick stuff as well if not better than the rogue, and the Scout or Ninja can do the sneaking-thing better. Sneak Attack... I can't be sure without checking, but I think that's one big thing for the rogue (either more dice, or more frequently upgraded, or something); but the ninja and the scout have something similar to it.
Then again, I guess it depends on what you want the rogue to do. Like what skills are focused on. Meh.

Barbarian is a beatstick with the ability to be like the hulk. Theoretically (as they have bigger hit dice than most, and the Con bonuses) they can be hit more than most monsters per HD, and hit harder than most PCs...
Then again, the variations of savage-type warriors are out there: totem warriors, spirit shamans, bear whatevers, fighter for the feats, that sort of thing. I don't know if you'd count those as variants. I have no idea if loads of options are up on the boards, but yeah. Also savage monstrous humanoids, like giants and ogres, in any class would fill the Niche.
Also, maybe folks don't want to make up yet another caveman character class that rages, as it's been done. Although a savage psychic warrior could be fun. ..

And a raging golem variant would be cool. Maybe there's something like that for eberron (warforged juggernaut) or in Dragon. Like substitution levels for constructs that go nuts (lighting auras when you hit flesh golems, at level three, instead of ...x...)

and there are other versions of Rage (like shifters, who have the "you do this for a bunch of rounds, upping your..."), sometimes not angry but doing something else.

so there are similar mechanics out there, if you look for them.

Kantolin
2007-12-05, 10:47 PM
It seems that, here, the rouge and the ranger are referred to as the most balanced classes. They're middle-ground: Not overwhelming, not worthless, which is pretty much where all classes should theoretically be.

At least, I believe that's the standard assumption here.

Chronos
2007-12-05, 11:00 PM
Well, the artificer can do the trap/lockpick stuff as well if not better than the rogue, and the Scout or Ninja can do the sneaking-thing better.That may be true (I don't have the books for either, so I can't say), but sometimes, you need stealth and traps-and-locks on the same character. It doesn't matter if the artificer can get through the locked door, if he can't get past the guards in front of the door. The rogue can slip past the guards, open the trapped doors to the inner sanctum, and steal the High Priest of Armageddon's unholy symbol from right around his neck. I don't think any other class can pull that off.

Accountant
2007-12-05, 11:26 PM
They should get rage when they would actually be enraged, low HP, death of a comrade, BBEG, and other dramatic situations.

Well, there is the varient in the PhB II (or UA?) where the Barbarian has a rage-like ability whenever his hp goes under half.

BardicDuelist
2007-12-05, 11:36 PM
I think the main thing is that they have the ability to have a use both inside and outside of combat (the barbarian's survival skills, the rogue's skills in general) but don't overlap too much with any other class. At no point do they suck mechanically, so their use continues throughout all levels of play.

Laurellien
2007-12-05, 11:37 PM
It seems that, here, the rouge and the ranger are referred to as the most balanced classes. They're middle-ground: Not overwhelming, not worthless, which is pretty much where all classes should theoretically be.

At least, I believe that's the standard assumption here.

Since when were we discussing make-up?

The rogue and barbarian are balanced classes. There are still many things wrong with them e.g. barbarian deserves a good will save and spell resistance, and the rogue needs a better BAB and hitdice, not to mention that it is more likely that a rogue will die if he is the party trap searcher than a barbarian would just setting off all of the traps. But still, they are more balanced than samurai or archivist.

Krursk
2007-12-06, 02:08 AM
Sneak Attack... I can't be sure without checking, but I think that's one big thing for the rogue (either more dice, or more frequently upgraded, or something); but the ninja and the scout have something similar to it.

Ninja Sudden Strike doesn't work against flanked targets, making them rather less versatile in combat after the suprise round and Scout Skirmish works as long as the Scout moves at least 10 ft but does less damage, as well as what Chronos said.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-06, 02:56 AM
I put bard and ranger right in there with Barbarian and Rogue, personally. Barring Shock Trooper/Leaping Attack Frenzied Berserker Barbarians (so, pretty much non-CW barbarians)

For a more direct comment on the OP, there are frequent complaints about the Trap Sense feature shared by barbarian and rogue, as well as the rogue's lack of a capstone ability, and the unreliability of sneak attack. My personal peeve about the rogue is that death attack, hide in plain sight, and poison use are not on the special ability list.

This isn't a point against the rogue, but lots of people hate traps (in that they feel they are poorly implemented). There is also some grief that only a rogue can find traps, regardless of ranks in search. My fix for this is to eliminate trapfinding at 1st level, and put it at 5th. Of course, my version of trapfinding is that it allows a search check automatically when within 5' of a trap. Every has the ability to find traps in my games, so long as they can beat the DC.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-06, 03:02 AM
Rage should be a much more rare ability. For all his reputation, if one is to read Robert E. Howard's Conan works, he's calm pretty much all the time. He only really flies into a rage a few times, in all the stories (not a few in each, a few total). They should get rage when they would actually be enraged, low HP, death of a comrade, BBEG, and other dramatic situations.

Actually, I think 4e would support that homebrew nicely. From what we know, there is a special status for being reduced to 50% hp (for desparate situations) as well as action points (for dramatic situations).

ShadowyFigure
2007-12-06, 03:11 AM
Ninja Sudden Strike doesn't work against flanked targets, making them rather less versatile in combat after the suprise round and Scout Skirmish works as long as the Scout moves at least 10 ft but does less damage, as well as what Chronos said.


Scout Skirmish still ends out top. Seeing as it's more likely for you to move 10ft a round while flanking probably wont happen and so in the end they have a higher damage out put. How ever a rougue built with a high bluff skill for feinting could be very good. All depends on the rogues style.

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 03:16 AM
Scout Skirmish still ends out top. Seeing as it's more likely for you to move 10ft a round while flanking probably wont happen and so in the end they have a higher damage out put. How ever a rougue built with a high bluff skill for feinting could be very good. All depends on the rogues style.

Except that Rogues after level 8 get SA automatically because they get a ring of blur, ring of blinking (and take pierce Magical concealment), or they just get a blurring or blinking or Rogue Blade enchantment on their weapon.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-06, 03:18 AM
Scout Skirmish still ends out top. Seeing as it's more likely for you to move 10ft a round while flanking probably wont happen and so in the end they have a higher damage out put. How ever a rougue built with a high bluff skill for feinting could be very good. All depends on the rogues style.

That would be true if flanking wasn't really easy to do in most battles. At least in my experience. The two-weapon fighting rogue is all about getting into flanking, and absolutely destroys things that are susceptible to sneak attack.

Which is probably moot, given the nowadays you can move as a swift action (sudden leap), and take a feat to progress S.A and Skirmish at the same time (don't remember the name of it).

Why choose? Do both! While full attacking with 2WF.


ring of blinking (and take pierce Magical concealment)

I have to admit that is an idea that had not occurred to me. That is awesome. :smallcool:

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 03:29 AM
I have to admit that is an idea that had not occurred to me. That is awesome. :smallcool:

I must confess that it was not my idea. I picked it um from another poster in another forum. He was full of crazy ideas like that (crazy ideas that work.)

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-06, 03:34 AM
One thing of note - I would posit that the rogue's skillmonkey and diplomat abilities are surpassed by the factotum. That class gets 6+int (and int is its primary stat) and all skills as class skills, further helped along by the ability to add its factotum level to any skill check 1/day. It makes up for this by being a sub-average figure in combat (though certainly not useless, considering they can cast spells, heal, melee, or do whatever they damn well please, at least for a few turns).

But outside of combat? Move over, rogue.

Benejeseret
2007-12-06, 10:10 AM
Bahhh

Kaelik, maybe your DM allows such a combo as a house rule but the whole blink/pierce concealment should not work.

Why?....because your enemy is NEVER concealed form you. On the ethereal plane you still see them just fine (they just do not see you). The 50% miss in not actually a 50% miss per say. It is the average of when you are one the material plane (100%) and on the ethereal (impossible, thus = 0%). This tactic as well as the Ghost Touch weapon trick should not work as RAW. Ghost touch effects incorporeal...not ethereal.

The only way to cheese out the ring of blink in this manner in the NINJA. The lvl8 Ghost Strike ability is the only current ability/anything that lets a ethereal opponent touch/affect the material plane that I am aware of.

To DM's: feeling evil? Give a ghost 8 levels of ninja. It never needs to manifest at all. From the ethereal plane it can ninja Ghost Strike each round and if combined with Mosquito Bite skill trick and the opponent does not even know they are getting hit.

Player feeling cheesy? Make a lvl8 ninja and find ways to have Ethereal Jaunt cast on them. Yes, it is indeed an invisible, ethereal, silent, Ghost Touch/Mosquito touch assassin that can kill something over many rounds and even the thing dying never even knowns it just lost a kidney!! And people say a ninja is a weak rogue....hah!

AKA_Bait
2007-12-06, 10:38 AM
I should like to nominate Beguiler from the PHBII as another class that doesn't need fixing. It's pretty much everything all those Charisma Rogue Sorcerers wanted to be without being overpowered or underpowered.

Wraithy
2007-12-06, 10:41 AM
One thing of note - I would posit that the rogue's skillmonkey and diplomat abilities are surpassed by the factotum. That class gets 6+int (and int is its primary stat) and all skills as class skills, further helped along by the ability to add its factotum level to any skill check 1/day. It makes up for this by being a sub-average figure in combat (though certainly not useless, considering they can cast spells, heal, melee, or do whatever they damn well please, at least for a few turns).


true, but factotums just don't feel right. its as if their sole existence is to fill the party gap, and even then its only for a few rounds per encounter. something about them just seems wrong, almost...soulless.
If an encounter lasts long enough factotums become useless. factotums can technically do what most other classes can do past a certain level, but they can't do anything origional.

(An explaination for FMA fans can be found below)When a factotum is near another class it is weakened because it is reminded that it is not real

Green Bean
2007-12-06, 10:44 AM
I've heard good things about the Psychic Warrior, too. It's apparently pretty balanced.

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 10:57 AM
Kaelik, maybe your DM allows such a combo as a house rule but the whole blink/pierce concealment should not work.

Why?....because your enemy is NEVER concealed form you. On the ethereal plane you still see them just fine (they just do not see you). The 50% miss in not actually a 50% miss per say. It is the average of when you are one the material plane (100%) and on the ethereal (impossible, thus = 0%). This tactic as well as the Ghost Touch weapon trick should not work as RAW. Ghost touch effects incorporeal...not ethereal.

Actually it works perfectly by RAW and not at all by Common Sense. You see the feat actually says "Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells of spell like abilities." IE all miss chances not just concealment. It wasn't intended to do that, but as written it allows your weapon to automatically be on whichever plane you want because you disregard that miss chance.

Reinboom
2007-12-06, 11:10 AM
I should like to nominate Beguiler from the PHBII as another class that doesn't need fixing. It's pretty much everything all those Charisma Rogue Sorcerers wanted to be without being overpowered or underpowered.

I... must disagree.
I removed knock and time stop from it, and then agree again. Time stop isn't as abusive on it, but, it still can lead to issues.
(Knock is more just a personal annoyance, not power, thing for me...)


Rogue does need a bit of work, such as the 20th level. There is almost absolutely -NO- reason to take Rogue to 20. Rogue 19/... almost any other class with full BAB = completely better, undeniably, unless you are going epic.

The greatest thing about rogue is it works under almost any stat, easily, and each rogue can be almost entirely different. Few other classes allow this much freedom.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-06, 11:20 AM
I... must disagree.
I removed knock and time stop from it, and then agree again. Time stop isn't as abusive on it, but, it still can lead to issues.
(Knock is more just a personal annoyance, not power, thing for me...)


I can see what you mean about knock, but it's perfect for that kind of magical rogue character. I don't really have an issue with Timestop being on their list. Or at least no more of a problem than it being on any list, and less than most. And honestly, I think if the worst thing that can be said about a class is that it has access to a 9th level spell that's pretty much broken for any class that it's as close to perfectly balanced as one really gets in this game.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-06, 12:17 PM
Interesting to note that apparently all rogue-based classes are considered balanced.
Rogue itself is useful out of combat, and in combat he can contribute fairly well.
The Beguiler is a Rogue that trades sneak attack by illusions and charms.
The Scout is a Rogue with a different kind of sneak attack.
The Ninja is a Rogue with a weaker sneak attack, but some Monk-like defenses.
The Artificer is a less combat oriented Rogue, with more access to magic and magic itens, instead of sneak attack.

The rogue is considered balanced because he doesn't try to do what the others do. He doesn't try to use magic better, nor fight better. And he is good at his area (when a wizard doesn't go Batman on him)

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=Roderick_BR;3622457]Interesting to note that apparently all rogue-based classes are considered balanced.
Rogue itself is useful out of combat, and in combat he can contribute fairly well.
The Beguiler is a Rogue that trades sneak attack by illusions and charms.
The Scout is a Rogue with a different kind of sneak attack.
The Ninja is a Rogue with a weaker sneak attack, but some Monk-like defenses.
The Artificer is a less combat oriented Rogue, with more access to magic and magic itens, instead of sneak attack.

Well the Scout and Ninja (maybe not the Scout, but definitely the Ninja) are considered under powered compared to say, Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Physic Warrior.

Secondly, you are missing the Ranger from this list.

Thirdly, The Artificer is insanely overpowered. Not even close to balanced, generally viewed as one of the top 5.

Frosty
2007-12-06, 01:54 PM
I think that getting Illusions and Charms in the form of 9th level spells is a great tradeoff since you only give up Sneak Attack for it. Beguiler is definitely better than the Rogue, but then I think the Rogue is a bit underpowered.

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-06, 02:35 PM
I've never really liked the ranger.

The combat styles thing - letting you go either TWF or archery route - is interesting, but not groundbreaking. The spells can be very useful, but most are underwhelming. The animal companion is a joke. I personally prefer the scout over both rangers and rogues, though I recognize they often put out less damage than rogues.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-06, 02:47 PM
I think that getting Illusions and Charms in the form of 9th level spells is a great tradeoff since you only give up Sneak Attack for it. Beguiler is definitely better than the Rogue, but then I think the Rogue is a bit underpowered.

Thing is that sneak attack is what makes the rogue a 'striker' to use the new lingo. Sneak attack is a pretty powerful ability when built right. Is the Beguiler more powerful overall? Probably, it is a full caster, but it's not more powerful in a signifigant way in terms of stepping on the rogues toes. People play a rogue because they wan't to get to yell 'sneak attack!' and they play a beguiler if they want to be able to talk the Baron into handing you his pants.

Chronos
2007-12-06, 03:37 PM
People play a rogue because they wan't to get to yell 'sneak attack!'I dunno... Rogue is my preferred class, and I view combat as being Plan D, at best, for a rogue. Combat implies that the enemy knows you exist.

Maybe this means I'd like one of those other classes even better, if I were familiar with them, but I think that playing a rogue for Sneak Attack is like playing a wizard for the ability to get a familiar.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-06, 03:43 PM
I dunno... Rogue is my preferred class, and I view combat as being Plan D, at best, for a rogue. Combat implies that the enemy knows you exist.

Maybe this means I'd like one of those other classes even better, if I were familiar with them, but I think that playing a rogue for Sneak Attack is like playing a wizard for the ability to get a familiar.

Honestly, I think you might like one of the other classes better. Ninja or Beguiler might be more up your alley depending upon if you are planning to be stabbing people at all or not. Rogue is built to be a flanking combat sneak. Hence the sneak attack, evasion and the like.