Consequences of real life levels?

[SangoProduction]

Let's say 1% of the world population, at complete random, were randomly assigned 10 levels in a D&D / pathfinder class (weighted by natural / trained proclivities).

So, out of the blue, 80 million-ish people just gained this massive power up. Including like 4 congress members and 800,000 Americans who were deemed criminal.
Of course, thanks to the shrinking social circles, on average, you won't be friends with anyone in real life who has those powers. Not even the outlier social butterflies are likely to personally be friends with one. But if you worked at a large company... There's probably a few in close proximity, and I would be rather concerned about who it could be, as the boss is not exactly a nice guy. Someone could go off, and you would get caught in the cross fire(ball).

At the same time, even if we completely ignore the absolute mayhem that any of these people with power on an entirely different scale than you can wreak: If they take up a role in the economy, it could be well and truly devastating. But potentially in a good way, for those whose jobs aren't (directly) impacted. Wall of Iron and what not are, as already known, great for raw materials and construction. And there are innumerable ways to break the laws of physics (at least as we know them - but that simply means we don't know them). And although miracle healers would, no doubt, be in incredible demand, the relative ease in restoring people every day probably collapses all major medical institutions and (mundane) medical research - reducing them to little more than holding areas for the healers out there.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SangoProduction
And although miracle healers would, no doubt, be in incredible demand, the relative ease in restoring people every day probably collapses all major medical institutions and (mundane) medical research - reducing them to little more than holding areas for the healers out there.

Not sure about this part. You’re describing a society in which 1% of the population now possesses magical abilities, but only a fraction of that 1% are healers.

Meanwhile, the workers in the US healthcare system account for 14% of the population as a whole. The fraction of 1% from the overall population isn’t going to replace the other 13.86% of healthcare workers who are keeping the system going. Apart from the disparity in numbers, that fraction of 1% will only have an effective workday of 1-2 hours, while the remaining healthcare workers are still going to be working 10-12 hour shifts.

It’ll have an impact, yes, and I could see an improvement in survivorship from rare conditions and communicable diseases, as well as from difficult surgeries; but I don’t think there would be enough of an impact to simply replace all non-magical healthcare workers.

The real question is how it would affect pricing and medical insurance. That fraction of 1% with healing talent may well demand even more for their services than the current outrageous and crippling prices, and I could see them quickly falling into a concierge-medicine model in which the healers are locked behind a paywall, with only the wealthiest citizens able to pay for membership and full access.

[Silva Stormrage]

Not sure about this part. You’re describing a society in which 1% of the population now possesses magical abilities, but only a fraction of that 1% are healers.

Meanwhile, the workers in the US healthcare system account for 14% of the population as a whole. The fraction of 1% from the overall population isn’t going to replace the other 13.86% of healthcare workers who are keeping the system going. Apart from the disparity in numbers, that fraction of 1% will only have an effective workday of 1-2 hours, while the remaining healthcare workers are still going to be working 10-12 hour shifts.

It’ll have an impact, yes, and I could see an improvement in survivorship from rare conditions and communicable diseases, as well as from difficult surgeries; but I don’t think there would be enough of an impact to simply replace all non-magical healthcare workers.

The real question is how it would affect pricing and medical insurance. That fraction of 1% with healing talent may well demand even more for their services than the current outrageous and crippling prices, and I could see them quickly falling into a concierge-medicine model in which the healers are locked behind a paywall, with only the wealthiest citizens able to pay for membership and full access.

Planar Binding. Starkin have 2 HD and are celestials that have remove disease at will. Decaton's are the lowest HD outsider (10 HD) I know that can cast heal at will as well as teleportation and are incredibly lawful.

How many Starkin need to be placed in the US to basically completely remove disease as a risk factor? Approximately 2 million people are diagnosed with cancer in the US each year. There isn't a cap on Planar Binding and I am pretty sure the healing lawful good celestial wouldn't have an issue with healing people on a mass scale. And there is no cap on the number of Planar Bindings you can have active at a time.

That's not even counting artificers building platforms of heal which cast heal on anyone walking over them continuously.


Short but boring version though is society evolves/changes in such a dramatic way that I can't imagine it looks the same in 50 years at all. I am not quite a pessimist to think that the D&D empowered people would try to take over the world (Most people really wouldn't want that workload and most people aren't the type who wants to fight/scheme) and would settle on becoming super rich with their abilities.

I am curious how such a group would tackle the climate crisis though. Level 10 isn't really a good way of devising a way to suck greenhouse gasses out of the atmosphere. I am sure a group of level 10 artificers could manage it with resources but not sure what would be an efficient way of doing it baring custom spell research.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage
I am curious how such a group would tackle the climate crisis though. Level 10 isn't really a good way of devising a way to suck greenhouse gasses out of the atmosphere.

It depends on the specifics of what abilities the newly-magical are able to draw upon (i.e. what sources are allowed) but there’s a cantrip from Dark Sun that provides for 100% germination of planted seeds. This plus Plant Growth and similar spells (Sweetwater, etc.) would allow for industrial-scale reforestation without the industrial part.

Also, there are other ways to address this issue. Give me wild shape and Flame Strike and I’ll be one naughty, naughty little bird.


Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage
I am not quite a pessimist to think that the D&D empowered people would try to take over the world….

I have no doubt that a lot of them would—certainly enough to pose a real issue. Remember that nearly one million of these people will be convicted criminals, and many of those won’t be caring about anything but what they can take for themselves.

I would expect a lot of neighborhood-scale warlords to be fighting each other to expand their little fiefdoms, and it’ll be a free-for-all unless there’s some framework or institution that coalesces to provide a force that can contain the magical criminals.

Sounds like a solid premise for a game setting, which I’m sure the OP has in mind—a low-level magical apocalypse, with magical bad actors who can only be contained by others with similar talents. A major question is whether people are able to level up or if they remain at tenth level. If the latter, then it’s going to be a mess but still quasi-recognizable.

But if the newly-magical are able to level up, then it’s going to be a brave new magically-irradiated world indeed. Sort of like Wild Cards meets Gamma World, with a bit of Shadowrun if there’s enough of the power grid still functioning.

[Maat Mons]

Well, a 10th-level Witch can, with the right choice of major hex, regenerate limbs as a standard action with no daily limit. That’s actually enough for one person to keep up with the worldwide amputation rate with 32 hours of work per week, assuming perfect efficiency (10 hexes per minute). So there’s some good news.

On the 3.5 side of things, Stronghold Builder’s guide has a magic bed that casts Remove Disease on anyone who lays on it for 18 seconds. Sadly, since the Draconomicon update, crafting a Platform of Healing is no longer within the means of a 10th-level character.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Having a percent gain magical powers doesn't mean there is suddenly a whole magical cosmology out there. I'm pretty sure Planar X and arguably resurrection and Summon Monster are out of the picture.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
That’s actually enough for one person to keep up with the worldwide amputation rate with 32 hours of work per week, assuming perfect efficiency (10 hexes per minute). So there’s some good news.

The issue here will be accessibility and travel time. Most of the people who need these amputations will probably find it very difficult or impossible to make the journey themselves, so that means the witch will have to go to them. That means money and logistics, which will be significant complications which will eat away at that perfect rate.

Also, bringing magic items into the mix will be another kettle of fish, one I'm not sure the DM wants to open. Crafting will complicate an already complicated situation even more so.


Originally Posted by Beni-kujaku
Having a percent gain magical powers doesn't mean there is suddenly a whole magical cosmology out there. I'm pretty sure Planar X and arguably resurrection and Summon Monster are out of the picture.

An extremely good point, and one only the OP can address.


Originally Posted by SangoProduction
Let's say 1% of the world population, at complete random, were randomly assigned 10 levels in a D&D / pathfinder class (weighted by natural / trained proclivities).

To really fine-tune the scenario we need to know exactly which PC classes are involved, what percentage of the population gains the abilities of which classes, whether or not they can level up, whether crafting of any kind is involved and whether other magic items are available.

And that’s just for a start. Is there multi-classing? Are there PrCs? In the case of upgraded classes (3.0 rogue, 3.5 rogue, Pathfinder rogue, Unchained rogue) does the most recent upgrade account for all instances of that class, or is there a spread between versions of the class? What about ACFs, archetypes, options for familiars and animal companions?

.

[Silva Stormrage]

Having a percent gain magical powers doesn't mean there is suddenly a whole magical cosmology out there. I'm pretty sure Planar X and arguably resurrection and Summon Monster are out of the picture.

I mean magic only FUNCTIONS if the various planes exist. You can't create a wall of fire via arcane magic in D&D if there is no Plane of Fire. I somewhat assumed that the various planes would be inhabited by something.

Otherwise things like Binders don't function at all and that doesn't seem to be the intent. But yes the OP could rule that planar/spirit binding spells and similar summons don't work if they want. That still leaves artificers crafting healing items that work on anyone for health care issues.

[SangoProduction]

Alright. I'll chime in. Single-class. No level ups. And spell lists don't expand, even for wizards. (Doesn't mean they can mundane-ly improve themselves as you can such as with skill, understanding and tactics. Just that the class doesn't improve.)
For different variations, it's effectively random (for NPCs, as the PCs are effectively pulling from this massive pool of happenstance). Some will bemoan that they got a crummy skill set, undoubtedly, despite all other circumstance. But that's human nature.
In general, summoning is limited to the more permanent Summoner Eidolon / familiar style of creatures. It's a part of them more than just something abducted from the ether.

[ciopo]

We're taking for granted those that are randomly selected will suddenly know they have these new powers and how they work.

I'm not feeling too worried about the criminal %, because if the powerset follows the natural inclination of the lucky chosen, those that are prone to violent action will get violent classes, i.e. mostly mundane.

And we'd get in the old argument of guns vs magic, ala Gate:ttjsf

Exalted feats and classes exists, and mechanically whatever good dudes end up taking or having vow of poverty will be mechanically superior to every other non vop lucky fellows that won't have magic gear to use anyway.

Or even acquiring the saint template for their prior saintly behavior

[Maat Mons]

When you say spell lists don’t expand, do you mean Wizards can’t add to their spellbooks by copying from other Wizards? Or do you just mean they can’t create brand new, never before seen spells with the spell research rules?

Come to think of it, do the spellbooks just magically appear when people are spontaneously granted Wizard levels? That would be pretty on-brand for the Poleiheira Adherents, but not really anyone else.

Can people retrain their feats and archetypes?

[Gnaeus]

We're taking for granted those that are randomly selected will suddenly know they have these new powers and how they work.

I'm not feeling too worried about the criminal %, because if the powerset follows the natural inclination of the lucky chosen, those that are prone to violent action will get violent classes, i.e. mostly mundane.

Or warmage. Warlock. Dread Necro. Maybe sorcerer. Bloodrager. Antipaladin. Kineticist. If you move to slightly less violent but also antisocial behavior, Witch, Beguiler, some Alchemists and Clerics.


Exalted feats and classes exists, and mechanically whatever good dudes end up taking or having vow of poverty will be mechanically superior to every other non vop lucky fellows that won't have magic gear to use anyway.

Or even acquiring the saint template for their prior saintly behavior

Sacrifice rules also exist, and are often highly abusable. Mechanically, an evil cleric willing to use BoVD sacrifice rules and farm mortals for soul gems is going to gain power a lot faster than a good one with VoP.

Honestly, I don't see anything in VoP that would matter to me under these circumstances. Yeah, a VoP paladin would beat an evil barbarian in combat. But it doesn't have anything that lets him detect a rogue or slayer. Nothing that gives movement modes. Basically all the normal VoP issues except that you don't likely have a friendly caster to provide that buff for you. Heck, any caster could take a crafting feat and exceed VoP in a few weeks. There are a lot of magic items, even low op ones, that would sell for a huge amount of money if there were only a few thousand people in the world who could make them (like, how much would a really rich person pay for 6 extra hours per day, versus how many people would have Craft Rings).

Or how many people who aren't level imbued have basic protections against Dominate. The first evil caster with enchantment to reach a given multi millionaire or world leader is now a multi-millionaire or world leader. I would way rather have a pet oil tycoon than VoP.

[Quertus]

What do I foresee?

I expect there will be a lot of murder, day 1, by those who are genre-savvy, unless "cannot level" is a known fact.

I expect there will be a lot of murder, day 1, by those who fear criminals getting these powers. Few prisons will remain standing. EDIT: Buildings that house politicians and lawyers may suffer similar acts of discrimination.

I expect there will be some suicides, day 1, when people who thought they should be Paladins or the like find that they are Warlocks at best, Evil Clerics at worst.

I expect there will be some murder, day 1, when those who aren't genre savvy ask the experts, "I'm a(n) <insert hated/evil class here>, what does that mean?".

Given the trope of "Wizard <-> Programmer", and the programmers I've know, I don't have high hopes for Wizards. Expect their spells and magic items to cause reality to crash. Most of your time from now on will be spent staring at a blue screen of death as reality attempts to reboot. Programmers will soon be hunted to extinction, with justifiable witch-hunts. The world will be forced back to lower-tech options that don't require programmers. I will be dead.

Given the previous ruling on the lack of planar monsters, expect Teleportation (or any other magic involving the planes: planeshift, gate, whatever) to be offline. :smallannoyed:

Perhaps we cannot level, but whatever lucky soul got Sculpt Self (probably someone transgender and into... um... even greater body modification, I'm sure there's a name for that, but I'm drawing a blank) will have a strong growth avenue.

Expect lots of disappointed people wondering where to get Unicorn Hair to make their magical items.

Between those last two, expect lots of murder in the mid-term, as people find ways to convert lives into power. Probably the luckiest soul will be whoever got the Thrullherd class, as their followers replenish daily.

Not entirely unrelated to that, expect lots of Charm and Dominate effects, to build a circle of "friends"... who may or may not find themselves sacrificed for power.

Icky undead will begin walking the streets / be used to power industry. :smallyuk:

Of course, the undead will need to be careful to avoid the Heal traps (just don't ask where the crafters got the *ahem* "materials"). Healthcare will be greatly improved in certain ways, so long as there's people benevolent enough to donate their powers, and who don't get assassinated for changing the world. Travel to a healer will become a common industry / charity.

Whoever got the Dragon Cohort will be hounded by scientists wanting to clone the thing. Heck, I want it cloned, too (if it's a Good dragon)!

Sharing the world with superior sentient beings will doubtless be problematic for many people. "Racism" will take on a whole new meaning.

Hopefully, long-term, someone with the right skillset (Beguiler, perhaps?) will worm their way to the nukes, wipe out humanity, and leave the world for the dragons.

-----

EDIT

Perhaps a more subtle change is brought about by the imbuing of 1% of the population with 10 HD worth of skill points. Given our previous status as a supposedly e7 world, this will result in an influx in experts in numerous fields. Changes in mundane fields will be sudden, dramatic, and global, as every field everywhere suddenly gets a boost. And when those HD are added to someone who is already an expert in their field, the results will be profound. And that's before the addition of skill boosting spells, stat boosting effects, etc.

[Mechalich]

Modern weapons can, very easily, kill someone with 10 HD of hit points. For example, elephants have 104 HP, which is comparable to a 10th level Barbarian with a 16 Con, and poachers are currently driving them to extinction using black market small arms. As such, while those granted martial classes make life more dangerous overall, and in time will alter the nature of special forces combat as they are grouped into armies, they aren't a game changer over the long term.

Skill monkey classes will be significant in that any maxed skill they possess will be at a superhuman level. That certainly has an impact, as fields such as sports, music, and acting have now been completely transformed with a completely new elite coming to play. This even matters for half-caster classes to a degree. A Paladin or Ranger with maxed Heal ranks is theoretically a better doctor than anyone alive on Earth today, even before a small amount of spellcasting is added on.

Of course, the big ones are the full casters, which are the only people in this scenario to have a large scale impact as individuals not in the aggregate. It's also the one that raises the most questions. Divine magic mandates the existence of a divine entity of some kind. That's an overwhelming game changer that instantly plunges the entire world into a massive cultural/religious crisis. Doubly so if people really do receive powers according to their predilections, which would imply, purely on statistical prevalence, that the overwhelming majority of the new divine casters would already be persons of deep faith major existing religions. Given, ah, distribution patterns of said persons, the likely outcome is a new global theocracy. Forum rules prohibit any real interrogation of this topic, but well, you do the math (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations).

[Twurps]

And there are innumerable ways to break the laws of physics (at least as we know them - but that simply means we don't know them).

Society would collapse, with (in a random order: hunger, desease, riots, (civil) war, total chaos, anarchy). Why? because when the laws of physics break, everything breaks.
-Half of our educational system is now useless as reading and writing might still be usefull, but physics and chemistry and the likes certainly become a joke.
-R&D is useless, there's no laws of physics to research.
-Police work is useless, because there's no way to logically link cause and effect, making it impossible to prove anything. Instead 'A wizard did it!' And locking said wizard up is also no use. Without laws of physics, who knows what will or will not be able to contain said wizard.
-Accounting and auditing in similar veins rely on some form of cause->effect, and all managerial functions in turn rely on some form of accounting/auditing. All useless now.
I could go on, but I think you can see where this is going.
Our society is a vastly complex system of written and unwritten rules, and requires quite a bit of 'buy-in' from the (vast) majority of people in it. What's there to buy into when half the system itself ceases to exist?

[Quertus]

What else do I foresee?

While existing experts may see the most impact of 10 levels and 10 HD, children will also see drastic changes.

Schools will be utter chaos, day 1, as bullies wield magic, or children retaliate against bullies with fireballs.

Random children will suddenly become quite precocious. Depending on their age, many may rebel against authority figures, or throw deadly tantrums. And baby wants his mother's milk or his diaper changed right now.

Education will be pushed even more towards the virtual classroom.

If this ability continues to be passed to 1% of new children, expect an upsurge in the population, and in children of both types given up for adoption. On a related note, human trafficking.

"Monk" will become an extinct class, as "did you feel the baby kick?" gives nightmares to many expectant mothers. Classes that grant Freedom of Movement will likewise become extinct. Baby Thrullherds will be recognized by the hoards of wet-nurses attending them. Recognizing classes in babies will become a profession.

Highly likely that a class (heh) structure will develop around classes. Babies born with language skills will receive different instruction than normies. "Barbarian" will once again be a common insult.

[Gnaeus]

Modern weapons can, very easily, kill someone with 10 HD of hit points. For example, elephants have 104 HP, which is comparable to a 10th level Barbarian with a 16 Con, and poachers are currently driving them to extinction using black market small arms. As such, while those granted martial classes make life more dangerous overall, and in time will alter the nature of special forces combat as they are grouped into armies, they aren't a game changer over the long term.

I like the elephant example but I do not think it means what you think it means. in 1994 an abused circus elephant broke loose in Hawaii. It took police half an hour and 86 bullets to kill it. Unlike an elephant, a barbarian isn't going to wander around aimlessly and let people shoot it until they hit it 86 times. And it would take more than 86 bullets for the barbarian, because he has DR. So, no, they aren't COMPLETELY immune to small arms fire, but functionally, yes.




If this ability continues to be passed to 1% of new children, expect an upsurge in the population, and in children of both types given up for adoption. On a related note, human trafficking.

"Monk" will become an extinct class, as "did you feel the baby kick?" gives nightmares to many expectant mothers. Classes that grant Freedom of Movement will likewise become extinct. Baby Thrullherds will be recognized by the hoards of wet-nurses attending them. Recognizing classes in babies will become a profession.

Highly likely that a class (heh) structure will develop around classes. Babies born with language skills will receive different instruction than normies. "Barbarian" will once again be a common insult.

Aside from being a silly and contrarian sidetrack, I think a discussion of whether fetuses in utero are people is probably against forum guidelines. Probably easier to assume classes manifest at their entry age, or as teenagers like Marvel mutants.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
Modern weapons can, very easily, kill someone with 10 HD of hit points. For example, elephants have 104 HP, which is comparable to a 10th level Barbarian with a 16 Con, and poachers are currently driving them to extinction using black market small arms.

As hideously tragic as this is, it’s not a good comparison, because elephants are relatively slow and massive, don’t wear body armor, can’t use weapons or machinery, can’t weaponize social media and the internet, and perhaps most importantly, can’t inspire legions of followers with twisted rhetoric and delusions of significance.

Here in the early 21st century we have immense cultural and technological advantages which the tenth-level PCs would be able to fully employ. Focusing solely on hit point totals misses the broader context.

Also, in the case of African elephants, they continue to be killed for sociopolitical reasons which are far beyond the scope of this forum, but habitat loss, climate change, human encroachment and many other factors are having a severe impact on their decline.


Originally Posted by Mechalich
A Paladin or Ranger with maxed Heal ranks is theoretically a better doctor than anyone alive on Earth today….

Not sure if a paladin or ranger would make much progress against the subtle diseases of genetics and lifestyle which are the scourge of many Western nations today. A paladin will make an excellent ER nurse, and an even better field medic for a military unit, but if he wants to make a real impact on national health he should start by attacking the menu box at a Hardee’s drive-through.


Originally Posted by Mechalich
Divine magic mandates the existence of a divine entity of some kind. That's an overwhelming game changer that instantly plunges the entire world into a massive cultural/religious crisis.

This is entirely on point, but owing to forum rules we probably shouldn’t take it any further. Suffice it to say that if the OP wants to flesh out a setting based on the premise, then this implication needs to be fully explored.


Originally Posted by Twurps
…but physics and chemistry and the likes certainly become a joke.

Not necessarily. Physics won’t “stop” because of a tiny percentage of exceptions; ordinary processes will continue to operate as they always have. But new fields will need to be developed to explain the new phenomena which are suddenly occurring.

.

[Metastachydium]

There's this thing I don't see discussed here: what about everyone else? Most of the problematic and beneficial abilities we are talking about here rely on game numbers: hit points, saves, HD, damage dice… If the 7 billion odd people not "empowered" (and whatever abilities and gear they might have) don't get such values assigned, the thought experiment is meaningless, insofar as the game abilities cannot interact with them. And the notion that every such person, be them highly trained legal or medical professionals, law enforcement, military, accomplished researchers and whatnot or illiterate malnourished children are all just 1st level Commoners or the equivalents thereof is too silly to even contemplate.


It depends on the specifics of what abilities the newly-magical are able to draw upon (i.e. what sources are allowed) but there’s a cantrip from Dark Sun that provides for 100% germination of planted seeds. This plus Plant Growth and similar spells (Sweetwater, etc.) would allow for industrial-scale reforestation without the industrial part.

Also, there are other ways to address this issue. Give me wild shape and Flame Strike and I’ll be one naughty, naughty little bird.

Can I squee loud enough on both counts?



I like the elephant example but I do not think it means what you think it means. in 1994 an abused circus elephant broke loose in Hawaii. It took police half an hour and 86 bullets to kill it. Unlike an elephant, a barbarian isn't going to wander around aimlessly and let people shoot it until they hit it 86 times. And it would take more than 86 bullets for the barbarian, because he has DR. So, no, they aren't COMPLETELY immune to small arms fire, but functionally, yes.

Recently, I've been made aware that hunting feral hogs from helicopters with machine guns is not even a particularly uncommon pastime activity in the US (because of course). 86 bullets is about three standard assault rifle or SMG magazines that can be emptied (albeit that's not advisable) by three gunmen in a single "combat round". A weaker military force a small nation can field numbers in the ten thousands, and that's not counting law enforcement and the like. So far as standard issue equipment goes, 5 to 7 mm automatic rifles, light and medium machine guns, 12 mm anti-materiel rifles and 20 to 40+ mm autocannons in terms of lighter ordnance that fires bullets are the norm, rather than the exception worldwide. The notion that a couple Barbarians with DR 2 or 3 would get to rampage about unhindered is, frankly, laughable.

[Gnaeus]

Recently, I've been made aware that hunting feral hogs from helicopters with machine guns is not even a particularly uncommon pastime activity in the US (because of course). 86 bullets is about three standard assault rifle or SMG magazines that can be emptied (albeit that's not advisable) by three gunmen in a single "combat round". A weaker military force a small nation can field numbers in the ten thousands, and that's not counting law enforcement and the like. So far as standard issue equipment goes, 5 to 7 mm automatic rifles, light and medium machine guns, 12 mm anti-materiel rifles and 20 to 40+ mm autocannons in terms of lighter ordnance that fires bullets are the norm, rather than the exception worldwide. The notion that a couple Barbarians with DR 2 or 3 would get to rampage about unhindered is, frankly, laughable.

1. 86 bullets was for the elephant. The Barbarian would presumably need more
2. He may go down if 3 people empty assault rifles clips into him with 100% accuracy isn't the flex you think it is.

No, he is not, as I said, completely immune to small arms fire. He should not stand in the open and let people empty guns into him. He may need to rely occasionally on his 33% faster than human norm land speed and his superhuman hearing, climbing ability, intimidation, and marksmanship.

[Metastachydium]

1. 86 bullets was for the elephant. The Barbarian would presumably need more
2. He may go down if 3 people empty assault rifles clips into him with 100% accuracy isn't the flex you think it is.

No, he is not, as I said, completely immune to small arms fire. He should not stand in the open and let people empty guns into him. He may need to rely occasionally on his 33% faster than human norm land speed and his superhuman hearing, climbing ability, intimidation, and marksmanship.

Alright, let's sort these assumptions out! An elephant in D&D has 104 hp, if we calculate using average hp/HD. To match that while raging (with 105 hp on average via 10d12+40), the Barbarian needs a base CON score of 14, which for a human is only possible if the non-elite or elite array is used. If we calculate with the standard array as we did with the elephant, the Barbarian's hp count, on average, will be 95 while raging. Now, raging is not a good idea if the Barbarian expects a prolonged chase, so the Barbarian will never have that much; if for the sake of simplicity, we assume that the B. will lag behind the elephant for an amount of hp equivalent to having an effective CON score 4 lower (which is realistic), the DR 2/– is an equalizer at best.

Now, let's talk durability! The elephant has the same speed, but higher CON than the B. (especially assuming no rage), so it will always be better at running away persistently. In terms of armour, it has a -2 size bonus and +7 natural. The B. needs something granting 5 points of AC to match that. Assuming ASIs go into CON (as we assumed above), how many of those can come from DEX looks like a solid "not too many"; but we must also keep in mind that the B. must use light armour if they want to keep their speed advantage (not an issue for the elephant), so there's that (not that a 33% percent speed advantage is a big deal when one's up against weapons with an effective range measured in hundreds of meters, but hey). Plus, rage, if and when employed, gives a further -2 penalty.

As for "superhuman" skills, well, I don't know about those. An African elephant in D&D has a +12 to Listen; an Indian elephant +13. That's about as much as our B. can hope to get. Meanwhile, the B.'s hypothetical armed opponents… What's "superhuman" compared to them? That depends entirely on their capabilities and "build". Yes, if we assume law enforcement and military are low level Commoners not even proficient with their weapons, their modified whatever checks against Intimidate, their stealth capabilities and chance of hitting a target are painfully far below the B.'s. But then, that's… Kind of unlikely to be the case.

So, all in all, no, I'm not saying the B. is no more of a threat than, say, mugger no. 17 with mugger no. 17's little knife. But the B. isn't some kind of unstoppable juggernaut either, and certainly not compared to the elephant and when facing opponents with a very clear numerical superiority (which is pretty much neccessarily true) and a higher budget (which is very likely to be the case).

[Gnaeus]

Alright, let's sort these assumptions out! An elephant in D&D has 104 hp, if we calculate using average hp/HD. To match that while raging (with 105 hp on average via 10d12+40), the Barbarian needs a base CON score of 14, which for a human is only possible if the non-elite or elite array is used. If we calculate with the standard array as we did with the elephant, the Barbarian's hp count, on average, will be 95 while raging. Now, raging is not a good idea if the Barbarian expects a prolonged chase, so the Barbarian will never have that much; if for the sake of simplicity, we assume that the B. will lag behind the elephant for an amount of hp equivalent to having an effective CON score 4 lower (which is realistic), the DR 2/– is an equalizer at best.

The barbarian also has stat boosts. Those could go into con. And barbarian gets max at level 1. And feats.



Now, let's talk durability! The elephant has the same speed, but higher CON than the B. (especially assuming no rage), so it will always be better at running away persistently. In terms of armour, it has a -2 size bonus and +7 natural. The B. needs something granting 5 points of AC to match that. Assuming ASIs go into CON (as we assumed above), how many of those can come from DEX looks like a solid "not too many"; but we must also keep in mind that the B. must use light armour if they want to keep their speed advantage (not an issue for the elephant), so there's that (not that a 33% percent speed advantage is a big deal when one's up against weapons with an effective range measured in hundreds of meters, but hey). Plus, rage, if and when employed, gives a further -2 penalty.

Not 86 shots fired. 86 bullets pulled out of the elephant that took half an hour to die. Any armor, cover etc makes it need more.



As for "superhuman" skills, well, I don't know about those. An African elephant in D&D has a +12 to Listen; an Indian elephant +13. That's about as much as our B. can hope to get. Meanwhile, the B.'s hypothetical armed opponents… What's "superhuman" compared to them? That depends entirely on their capabilities and "build". Yes, if we assume law enforcement and military are low level Commoners not even proficient with their weapons, their modified whatever checks against Intimidate, their stealth capabilities and chance of hitting a target are painfully far below the B.'s. But then, that's… Kind of unlikely to be the case.

The barbarian probably has a +13 listen before stats. A super elite human, by which I mean say a level 6 ranger, perhaps a top special forces operative, has a +9. Say 11 with a 14 wis based on elite array. So the average 10 wis barbarian who maxed class skills has listen equal to that person who also took a feat like alertness. Thats the best our world can offer. And that peak human specimen can only match him in his particular specialty and only if the barbarian only bothered maxing his better class skills. Shoot, take cross class ranks and learn 6 languages as a side hustle (or 10, because pathfinder)

A more ordinary veteran cop or soldier, say level 4, can't even compete if they are heavily optimized to listen in this case. An average beat cop would be more likely to be like a level 2 or 3 warrior or expert.

The barbarian THEN gets feats. Martial Study? Bind Vestige? Fey Heritage and Fey Legacy? Wait. PF is available. Rage Powers! He could be crafting magic items, have sorcerer bloodline abilities, sky is the limit. Literally, he could be able to fly.


So, all in all, no, I'm not saying the B. is no more of a threat than, say, mugger no. 17 with mugger no. 17's little knife. But the B. isn't some kind of unstoppable juggernaut either, and certainly not compared to the elephant and when facing opponents with a very clear numerical superiority (which is pretty much neccessarily true) and a higher budget (which is very likely to be the case).

He would be better than many superheros. Easily able to floorstomp Hawkeye or Black Widow (about level 6 ranger and rogue), probably Captain America level. He would not have difficulty getting a secured spot in the Avengers or JLA or their evil counterparts. He basically has Hawkeye or Green Arrow or Deadshot's powers just from his BAB alone. Before factoring in his superhuman speed, toughness, alertness, intimidation etc.

Yeah, his opponents may have numerical or budget superiority if he is stupid and decides to Leroy Jenkins the US mint on day 1. How long would it take him to take over a drug cartel? Or Somalia? Or be a professional athlete? His primary threat, almost immediately, would be other imbued PCs. And this is barbarian, which is not what you want on the random class chart if your plan isn't killing people. I would much, much, much rather have dragon shaman, hexblade, truenamer, mountebank, etc.

[Menzath]

I think that some of the key differences not pointed out of the barbarian compared to the elephant, is the stock MM elephant is for the African savanna(bush) elephants. From a quick Google search average height of 8.2ft-13ft. And weight of 5,000 to 14,000ilbs. Compared to a human 4.5 to 6.6ft (averages) and weights of 85 to 320 ilbs.

Those numbers in size and weight differences only take adults into account(human averages are a bit wonky since some regions vary more). But still we see a massive difference. The overall body mass of the lightest elephant is just over 15 times that of a human at the heavier/taller end. That a human on the smaller end could suddenly gain even a margin of the durability for an average elephant is fairly ridiculous, but not over powered.

What could be a little more overpowered is if that same barbarian happens to get lucky in feat selection and get something like power attack and leap attack, with the possibility of shock trooper jackpot. With a large stick(great club) that would be average damage of 5+(str x 1.5)+20(only power attack) 5+(str x 1.5)+40 for both leap attack and shock trooper with the latter having a significantly higher chance to connect.

Some people on various hombrew have tried stating tanks, with different models having HP range from 300(smaller and older) to 1000(m1 Abrams). Main guns(cannon) doing damage of 10d6, 10d10, or 20d10(averages of 35, 55, and 110).

So imagine that an old man about 5.3ft and 120ilbs, suddenly became capable of picking up a stick, and hitting literally as hard as a cannon. The chance of this is unlikely but still very possible in this scenario. Yes his durability wouldn't be that amazing, but still drastically more than what most humans are capable of.

And of course once we start taking into account classes with magic and spell like abilities it gets nutty. Add on top of that dnd theory crafters who would be the smallest of the percentage of people who get levels knowing how to leverage their new found abilities to the maximum.

The hard-core gamers and theory crafters would most likely be the most low key and unobtrusive at the start. Taking all precautions to insure survival while gaining strength not directly based off class levels, and within a month or two once prepared would then step out to start enforcing their agenda which in most cases would end up being a form of civility. In the case of evil people it might resemble a caste system(with them at the top , of course) and good types it might be similar to a democracy with the most able for a job fulfilling that position, even using divination to help select people for important positions where divining that them in that position would lead to overall prosperity.

All the damage done by power crazies in the first few weeks could be large, but wouldn't get to far out of hand due to an equal(if not larger) amount of people who like the social norms and enforce it would step in to stop them in.

The bigger issue is countries with gaps in population and differences in ideals suddenly gaining a massive force of individuals to call upon.

I can think up a few different scenarios from their, and most might happen since there are so many countries in the world with varying ideals and social norms.

[Metastachydium]

The barbarian also has stat boosts. Those could go into con.

Yes, two of them. I already factored in both.


Not 86 shots fired. 86 bullets pulled out of the elephant that took half an hour to die. Any armor, cover etc makes it need more.

I'm pretty sure I specifically discussed the armour issue.


The barbarian probably has a +13 listen before stats. A super elite human, by which I mean say a level 6 ranger, perhaps a top special forces operative, has a +9. Say 11 with a 14 wis based on elite array. So the average 10 wis barbarian who maxed class skills has listen equal to that person who also took a feat like alertness. Thats the best our world can offer. And that peak human specimen can only match him in his particular specialty and only if the barbarian only bothered maxing his better class skills.

That's a funny example. Ranger 6 comes with 2 favoured enemies, the +4 one being Humanoid (human) by default for a special forces operative. That means a +13 to Listen and Spot before feats or WIS or whatever against any human, including the Barbarian.


The barbarian THEN gets feats. Martial Study? Bind Vestige? Fey Heritage and Fey Legacy? Wait. PF is available. Rage Powers! He could be crafting magic items, have sorcerer bloodline abilities, sky is the limit. Literally, he could be able to fly.

Wait, are we assuming these "empowered" folks get to pick all of that and get an innate understanding of magic as a Barbarian? At any rate, I'm pretty sure a helicopter still flies faster than anything in D&D, and likely with better maneuverability to boot.


his BAB alone. Before factoring in his superhuman speed, toughness, alertness, intimidation etc.

Again, that just makes the "superheroes" lame then. See the comparison with the elephant above.


Yeah, his opponents may have numerical or budget superiority if he is stupid and decides to Leroy Jenkins the US mint on day 1.

Granted.


How long would it take him to take over a drug cartel? Or Somalia? Or be a professional athlete?

The last one? A couple years of training to master the specific techniques, tops. The other two? Yeah, no. 33% faster than the standard human is not much against guns. DR 2 is only slightly better. Intimidation might render an opponent… Shaken? For a little while? Sorry, stuff that literal governments are pouring craploads of money and ordnance into dealing with takes a little bit more than "I hits hard" and "with the right build choices I can maybe fly (and make myself an easier target for the autocannon on that technical)".

[Maat Mons]

If we’re using d20 modern rules for firearms, a trained soldier firing a typical assault rifle in burst fire mode deals 4d8 damage (6d8 on a critical hit). In spite of using 3 or 5 rounds of ammunition (depending on specific firearm), this counts as a single instance of damage, so DR would only apply once.

Then again, if we’re using d20 modern rules for firearms, a rocket launcher deals 10d6 damage in a 10-foot-radius burst (Ref save for half). A rampaging 10th-level Barbarian might be considered to warrant bringing out the big guns.

If we’re using pathfinder rules for “modern” firearms… there are no assault rifles.



A pathfinder Barbarian can select the Invulnerable Rager archetype for DR 5/- at 10th level. A pathfinder barbarian can also select the Increased Damage Reduction rage power up to twice by 10th level. If using Unchained Barbarian, that bumps DR up to 9/- while raging.

That’s a tad better than I was expecting, so let’s maybe make some more optimistic assumptions for the non-powereds. The most damaging assault rifle in the d20 modern SRD deals 4d10 damage in burst fire mode (6d10 on a critical hit). A 1st-level d20 modern character with a military, law-enforcement, or rural background will have 3 feats, which will of course be Personal Firearms Proficiency, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, and Burst Fire. “Ordinaries” in d20 modern have stats of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 at 1st level. Naturally, our optimisticly-designed characters will have the 15 in Dex and the 13 in Wis.

So where does that put us?

[Mechalich]

Unfortunately, d20 modern stats for firearms are woefully underpowered and simply not comparable to the capabilities of 21st century sidearms. The general point is that modern society is quite capable of putting down people whose primary advantage is that they have miraculously acquired durability on par with a much larger animal, which is the big thing that martials get from the individual perspective in this scenario. Now, en masse, things are different. A brigade of soldiers who are all Ftr/Bar/Mnk 10s is a beast of a unit capable of doing all kinds of impossible stuff. But, it would take significant time to sort something like that out, by which point the casters have already transformed society in drastically profound ways.

Broadly, in this scenario the non-caster classes get disregarded just as they would in a standard 3.5e scenario of level 10 characters with a WBL of 0. The question is what to the Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards do (and any funky classes if you're going to do those). Druids are a notably important case because all druids share a faith, which means that the 1/1100 individuals on Earth who are now druids (assuming only the core base classes), represent the largest single power block in existence. I could see that bending the world towards an apocalyptic war in short order.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
Druids are a notably important case because all druids share a faith….

Not sure where you’re getting this from. Druids as a PC class draw on the divine power of the natural world, but how they approach that varies tremendously, and in game settings they’re in no way unified religiously.

The 3.5 PHB states that druids “cast divine spells much the same way clerics do, though most get their spells from the power of nature rather than from deities.” —Right there we have a division among druids, between those who draw power from nature and those who venerate deities, and it’s clear that the latter are in the minority.

This is clarified under Religion: “The typical druid pursues a mystic spirituality of transcendent union with nature rather than devoting herself to a divine entity. Still, some druids revere or at least respect either Obad-Hai (god of nature) or Ehlonna (goddess of the woodlands).”

Right in the class description we see that not all druids venerate game deities, and the minority who do are split between game deities. This is divided even further depending on the campaign setting. In the Forgotten Realms, druids may follow Silvanus (true neutral god of forests), Mielikki (neutral good goddess of wild lands), Chauntea (neutral good goddess of agriculture), Malar (neutral evil god of the hunt), Lurue (chaotic good goddess of intelligent nonhumanoids), and probably others as well.

There’s an even wider divergence of druidic faiths in Eberron, which I won’t go through. But if druids are so fragmented in game settings, there’s no reason to believe they’ll somehow become a monolithic power bloc unified by a single unspecified faith in this scenario. Different people have different views, beliefs, convictions, and gaining the powers of a game druid won’t automatically reset their beliefs.

[Quertus]

What else do I foresee?

Scientists will attempt to measure and categorize all the new physics introduced by this change. Although things like "positive energy" will be easy (and likely have commercial applications within the year), other things will be more difficult. Like, just how the **** do spells like "Cure Disease" or "Cure Blindness" work? How do they know which microbes are "Disease", or fix various forms of Blindness while unable to aid lesser optical defects? My personal vote is that understanding such things will lead to the birth of WoD Mages; what's anyone else's opinion on how "spells that work with abstract definitions or work via the caster's will" would impact science?


Aside from being a silly and contrarian sidetrack, I think a discussion of whether fetuses in utero are people is probably against forum guidelines. Probably easier to assume classes manifest at their entry age, or as teenagers like Marvel mutants.

Heh. "Personhood" is, indeed, defined differently by different schools of thought. However, the OP didn't specify "people":



Let's say 1% of the world population

Population numbers do usually (AFAIK - anyone care to contradict me?) only count those who have been born. So, by RAW, one need not fear the self-aborting Monks. The Thrullherd wet nurses, however, would still be a thing. As would "baby's first words" potentially occurring before the umbilical is cut.

My point was simply to approach the scenario differently, and see what else could be seen. Even if some of the details might prove to be wrong once one looks carefully at RAW, the experience of looking at the problem differently remains.

The most obvious question I was raising was whether this was a 1-time event, or an ongoing change to how the world works. (Although, even as a 1-time thing, you could still have the baby Thrullherd etc as part of the initial influx of classes and abilities.)

That said, in what way would it be "easier" to look at some arbitrary midpoint of the being's existence, like puberty of maturity (18 for girls, 25 for boys) or whatever "entry age" means? That seems like added complexity, not simplicity.

That said, one of my subtle points, taken to extremes, involves looking at my examples in conjunction with this bit:



if the powerset follows the natural inclination of the lucky chosen

and realizing that what people's inclinations are can change over the course of their life, which would lead to the question, if it's based on inclination, would their classes change alongside their inclinations if those change over time?

Obviously, this is moot if class selection is actually entirely random. Similarly moot would be my "reality rebooting" scenario, culminating in my own death. And several other of my projections.

[Gnaeus]

That's a funny example. Ranger 6 comes with 2 favoured enemies, the +4 one being Humanoid (human) by default for a special forces operative. That means a +13 to Listen and Spot before feats or WIS or whatever against any human, including the Barbarian.

OK, granted. His perception is not superhuman. It is merely equal to one of the world's top soldiers who focused on perception. Darn. So worst case he needs 5 days and some $ to retrain a feat, assuming that his feats were random and bad, and THEN his perception is above human max.




Wait, are we assuming these "empowered" folks get to pick all of that and get an innate understanding of magic as a Barbarian? At any rate, I'm pretty sure a helicopter still flies faster than anything in D&D, and likely with better maneuverability to boot.

Some would. Presumably they would know how to use their powers. I don't think I would have to fly faster than a helicopter for flight to be super useful, in or out of combat.




Again, that just makes the "superheroes" lame then. See the comparison with the elephant above.

Still not the flex you think it is. The elephant can't take cover and fire back with elite marksman accuracy.




The last one? A couple years of training to master the specific techniques, tops. The other two? Yeah, no. 33% faster than the standard human is not much against guns. DR 2 is only slightly better. Intimidation might render an opponent… Shaken? For a little while? Sorry, stuff that literal governments are pouring craploads of money and ordnance into dealing with takes a little bit more than "I hits hard" and "with the right build choices I can maybe fly (and make myself an easier target for the autocannon on that technical)".

Try a couple of minutes. Throwing a ball would be BAB, so every martial would be able to make NBA level free throws. Avoiding grapples is a function of CMD, and/or acrobatics, a class skill, so people pretty much can't tackle you. The only reason he wouldn't be top NFL by default is that the swashbucklers are better. And thats just for sports that PCs don't just autowin, like anything based on run or swim speed. The BARBARIAN won't win some of those, but imbued PCs will win all of them.

Thats the lame combat use of intimidation. Intimidate is also used to coerce people into doing what you want by being scary. Much more useful. Especially if 3 gang members can burst fire their guns into you and you can then kill everyone in the room. How do you think you would take over a gang other than being the most dangerous, the most frightening, and the toughest guy in the room combined? OK, maybe you wouldn't immediately take over the drug cartel. But thats only because if there are 500 people in it there are 4 other PCs, some of whom have better classes than barbarian, and probably other PCs who would immediately gravitate that way when they realized they were batman. So maybe it takes a few months to have a cartel hit squad under your control or be a Rawandan warlord. In any event, you won't be outnumbered for very long unless you are a ninja, rogue, or slayer who wants to be alone because taking stuff is easier for you that way.



I am curious how such a group would tackle the climate crisis though. Level 10 isn't really a good way of devising a way to suck greenhouse gasses out of the atmosphere. I am sure a group of level 10 artificers could manage it with resources but not sure what would be an efficient way of doing it baring custom spell research.

Seems like if you put a marshal and a truenamer in a room you could pretty easily make an epic level knowledge engineering check or knowledge nature check. that seems like a good start.

[Satinavian]

It really depends on who gets what class. With pure randomness, mosst of the people who become spellcasters don't even have a casting stat above ten and even elsewhere you will get cases like the 65 year old collage professor with a strength of 7 now suddenly being a barbarian and forgetting how to read and write.

But i guess 10 hitdice are always nice. Safeguards against a lot of dangerous accidents. And higher safes are also fine.

[Metastachydium]

I would much, much, much rather have dragon shaman, hexblade, truenamer, mountebank, etc.

Not to mention Beguiler. Warlock even.


OK, granted. His perception is not superhuman. It is merely equal to one of the world's top soldiers who focused on perception. Darn. So worst case he needs 5 days and some $ to retrain a feat, assuming that his feats were random and bad, and THEN his perception is above human max.

Meh. The Ranger 6 just gets a +4 by virtue of being Ranger 6, has 6+INT skill points per level and at least one of the 6 best skills they get is a perception-related one. It's not as outlandish as you seemto think it is. Plus the B. also has to max Listen, if we're talking 3.5 doesn't even get Spot and the Ranger 6 gets 4 feats as well that will be better suited to their purposes already because, y'know, trained professional.


Some would. Presumably they would know how to use their powers. I don't think I would have to fly faster than a helicopter for flight to be super useful, in or out of combat.

It's among the best utility powers ever and I'd love to have it. But when modern guns, aircraft and anti-aircraft measures are at play, it's not a game changer in combat at all.


Still not the flex you think it is. The elephant can't take cover and fire back with elite marksman accuracy.

Granted. Which is why the B. would get in bigger trouble than the elephant if they start showing off.


Try a couple of minutes. Throwing a ball would be BAB, so every martial would be able to make NBA level free throws.

It's also against a fixed AC, so using game rules, the number of people who should be able to do that gets stupidly high stupidly fast even before level 10. Meh.


Avoiding grapples is a function of CMD, and/or acrobatics, a class skill, so people pretty much can't tackle you.

Ah, forgot your ball games over the sea involve grappling. You were the real barbarians all along!


The only reason he wouldn't be top NFL by default is that the swashbucklers are better. And thats just for sports that PCs don't just autowin, like anything based on run or swim speed. The BARBARIAN won't win some of those, but imbued PCs will win all of them.

I hate to burst your bubble, the world records in athletics that I know of tell me that a 40' land speed, even with Run, won't net you a medal , let alone an auto-win most of the time.


Thats the lame combat use of intimidation. Intimidate is also used to coerce people into doing what you want by being scary. Much more useful. Especially if 3 gang members can burst fire their guns into you and you can then kill everyone in the room. How do you think you would take over a gang other than being the most dangerous, the most frightening, and the toughest guy in the room combined? OK, maybe you wouldn't immediately take over the drug cartel. But thats only because if there are 500 people in it there are 4 other PCs, some of whom have better classes than barbarian, and probably other PCs who would immediately gravitate that way when they realized they were batman. So maybe it takes a few months to have a cartel hit squad under your control or be a Rawandan warlord. In any event, you won't be outnumbered for very long unless you are a ninja, rogue, or slayer who wants to be alone because taking stuff is easier for you that way.

Ah, right, the other use of Intimidation, where (and I quote (http://dndsrd.net/skillsAll.html#intimidate))

[y]ou can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

Trying to climb the rungs that way gets a hitsquad after you before it'd put one under your command.

[Quertus]

What else do I foresee?

The biggest question for science (perhaps nudged by Divinations) to answer is, "why the **** did this suddenly happen?".

Once science (or "Science!") can wield the power of granting 10 levels, we might move towards a 100% leveled society.

With everyone in our "e7" world having 10 extra HD, crimes of passion become much less frequent, as it's really hard to kill someone with a single blow. Deaths become much more grizzly, "assault" rates increase, premeditated murder rates increase, although the latter hopefully by less than impulse murder drops.

So many related industries change. Not just war, but personal protection (perhaps favoring things like mace, but saving throws have also increased...), and even baby gates (who cares if baby falls down the stairs? They'll be fine). The medical industry is changed greatly, too - with 10 extra HD, people heal an extra 10 HP per day, meaning that wounds heal faster naturally, even without magic.

College entrance exams become harder. Employers begin including Class requirements - or perhaps even tests for specific skills, feats, or even spells.

"Barbarian" is still a dirty word.

EDIT: Somehow, I keep forgetting, and no one else has mentioned "wightpocalypse". If millions of people suddenly jump to level 10 simultaneously, doubtless, some moron somewhere will start Armageddon before word gets out to Not. Do. That.


It really depends on who gets what class. With pure randomness, mosst of the people who become spellcasters don't even have a casting stat above ten and even elsewhere you will get cases like the 65 year old collage professor with a strength of 7 now suddenly being a barbarian and forgetting how to read and write.

But i guess 10 hitdice are always nice. Safeguards against a lot of dangerous accidents. And higher safes are also fine.

I think your math is a little off there. For the benchmark of "above 10", it would be "exactly half"... except that age modifiers bump that to "over half".

Still a good point, that not everyone is able to fully utilize their classes - and, based on some of the programmers I've known, that's true even if the classes are handed out based on one's inclinations. :smallamused:

EDIT: That said, that's not counting stat boosts, which, for an e7 person with +10 HD, that can be up to 4 stat boosts. Which isn't nothing.

[Berenger]

A 1st-level d20 modern character with a military, law-enforcement, or rural background will have 3 feats, which will of course be Personal Firearms Proficiency, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, and Burst Fire. “Ordinaries” in d20 modern have stats of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 at 1st level. Naturally, our optimisticly-designed characters will have the 15 in Dex and the 13 in Wis.

Nitpick: there shouldn't be such a thing as a 1st-level d20 Modern soldier or law enforcement officer. By the rules, people get their 1st level at age 12. Even ordinary NPCs will hit their 2nd level by the time they finish school and start their first job. Take, for an example, the official SWAT officers:


SWAT team members are police officers who receive additional training, including squad tactics, automatic weapons fire, and armor use. Low-level SWAT Team members (Fast Ordinary 1 / Tough Ordinary 1) are recently trained and probably on their first or second mission. Mid-level SWAT team members (Fast Ordinary 3 / Tough Ordinary 3) include squad commanders and elite team members. High-level SWAT team members (Fast Ordinary 5 / Tough Ordinary 5) are the cream-of-the-crop, representing SWAT commanders and individuals sent into the most difficult and dangerous situations. SWAT team members have additional equipment, depending on the situation, including bolt cutters, demolitions kits, and night vision goggles.

Those mid-level officers come with +7 ranged attack, 42 hit points and a 25 defense, 2d12 sniper rifles with a 180 feet range increment, tear gas that has a 20% chance per round to nauseate the (constitution 16, level 10) barbarian and armored transporters that can just run over a person for 12d8 damage.

That's before a heroic mundane character with an advanced class enters the scene.

[Vahnavoi]

It would destabilize society to the point it would be impossible to predict what would happen. You cannot suggest a sudden change of this scale and expect anything else. The same would be true even if you posited something relatively simpler, like 1% of the population suddenly dying. Depending on class and abilities, a single level 10 character could destabilize a nation by, say, running for a president.

[Metastachydium]

Nitpick: there shouldn't be such a thing as a 1st-level d20 Modern soldier or law enforcement officer. By the rules, people get their 1st level at age 12. Even ordinary NPCs will hit their 2nd level by the time they finish school and start their first job. Take, for an example, the official SWAT officers:



Those mid-level officers come with +7 ranged attack, 42 hit points and a 25 defense, 2d12 sniper rifles with a 180 feet range increment, tear gas that has a 20% chance per round to nauseate the (constitution 16, level 10) barbarian and armored transporters that can just run over a person for 12d8 damage.

That's before a heroic mundane character with an advanced class enters the scene.

Well, yes, but is that a match to the Barbarian's superior HEARING once they took over the NBA?

[Berenger]

Well, yes, but is that a match to the Barbarian's superior HEARING once they took over the NBA?

Before or after the opening salvo of flashbangs that will leave the Barbarian blinded and deafened? :smallbiggrin:

[lylsyly]

You end up 65 with arhritis from the neck down and lung cancer!

[Quertus]

It would destabilize society to the point it would be impossible to predict what would happen. You cannot suggest a sudden change of this scale and expect anything else. The same would be true even if you posited something relatively simpler, like 1% of the population suddenly dying. Depending on class and abilities, a single level 10 character could destabilize a nation by, say, running for a president.

Yeah, that’s kinda the subtle subtext message of my various Divinations, that each little piece you look at gives something vastly different, and they’re all hugely impactful.

What else do I foresee?

Those who are savvy - especially ones who haven’t been “empowered” by Arangee - will likely begin looking into Templates as a form of empowerment. Actually, since leveling isn’t a thing, I imagine everyone will show interest in adding templates, as they’re a pure upgrade (more or less) with no LA cost to XP to worry about.

Undead templates will be the easiest to add. Among other things, this could put a dent into world hunger issues. Which is a good thing, given that this event likely caused a population boom. I don’t think Lich or even Vampire is likely, but Necropolitans, Bone, and Corpse should be popular.

Retraining / rebuild quests will become important, to at least the upper 1%. Scientists will be interested to see how they affect everyone else.


You end up 65 with arhritis from the neck down and lung cancer!

Ok, I’ll bite: why? I don’t get the joke / reference / whatever. What’s the story here?

I guess I can’t say “I don’t bite”, huh?

[Satinavian]

Undead templates will be the easiest to add. Among other things, this could put a dent into world hunger issues. Which is a good thing, given that this event likely caused a population boom. I don’t think Lich or even Vampire is likely, but Necropolitans, Bone, and Corpse should be popular.Except that no one actually gets the ability to create necropolitans because the Ritual of Crucimigration was never detailed in the rules. Bone/corpse creature are out as well requiring a lv 6 spell. There is very little in regard to templates that random lv. 10 characters actually can hand out.


Retraining / rebuild quests will become important, to at least the upper 1%.If that is allowed at all. The assumption is probably more that people are stuck with whatever they got, otherwise we could have ignored this step and have let people just choose their build in the first place.

But yes, when retraining is allowed, soon everyone of the gifted will retrain to one of subset optimized builds, probably mostly consisting of spellcasters.

[Quertus]

Except that no one actually gets the ability to create necropolitans because the Ritual of Crucimigration was never detailed in the rules. Bone/corpse creature are out as well requiring a lv 6 spell. There is very little in regard to templates that random lv. 10 characters actually can hand out.

No “Artificer creating a scroll” tricks for Bone/Corpse? Oh, right, out of what materials. Dang. Is dark craft really the only way?

But if “it wasn’t detailed” prevents it from happening, nobody could become a Necropolitan (or Lich, or Human, or any other species besides maybe dragon born) in any campaign setting.

[Satinavian]

But if “it wasn’t detailed” prevents it from happening, nobody could become a Necropolitan (or Lich, or Human, or any other species besides maybe dragon born) in any campaign setting.A Lich has clearly stated requirements that a caster can fulfill. A Necropolitan has also clearly stated requirements. Unfortunately they involve going to a certain place, bribe people and petition them to do the ritual, which then the not nearer described caster does.

As it is, is is most comparable to one of those special places that reward feats for visiting and less of a spell. But sure, if wanted at a table to play the caster side, you would completely depend on the DM to introduce houserules for it and make the Ritual of Crumification into e.g. a 7th level cleric spell or into a special ability of a newly created prestige class or something alike.

But nothing like that does officially exist and it is certainly not availabe to random lv 10s on Earth.

[lylsyly]

Ok, I’ll bite: why? I don’t get the joke / reference / whatever. What’s the story hereI guess I can’t say “I don’t bite”, huh?

Title of the thread is Conseqences of real life levels! Thanks to 13.5 years of jumping out of airplanes for uncle sam i really do have uncle arthur from the neck down! 20 years of remodeling ancient schools in new york city has givin me mesothelioma (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1CANPWS_enUS1007&sxsrf=APwXEdftKlHZfveGMspv3DQRoClHIqOyng:168590625 8942&q=mesothelioma&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjc7MCdqqr_AhXXq4QIHeM0AaQQkeECKAB6BAgRE AE) despite the protective gear. Do you have any other ? about conseqencses of REAL LIFE LEVELS??

[Laughing Dog]

Recently, I've been made aware that hunting feral hogs from helicopters with machine guns is not even a particularly uncommon pastime activity in the US (because of course).
To be fair regarding the hunting of feral hogs via helicopter; they have become a rather large problem for the areas they are in, and you can't exactly hunt them with more conventional tactics as they are some smart pigs.

[lylsyly]

no worse than tagging a wolf and intentionally waiting unitl he finda a pack willing to take him in. then you grab your machine guns and load up on helicopters to wipe out the whole pack. so much for being "human."

[NichG]

For those saying 'everything would change, the social order would break down, !!!' - what is the maximum number of randomly distributed Lv10 D&D characters you think could be added to the modern world (as a single one-off freak event) without the result being a collapse and rebuild? One? Ten? A thousand? A million?

[Quertus]

For those saying 'everything would change, the social order would break down, !!!' - what is the maximum number of randomly distributed Lv10 D&D characters you think could be added to the modern world (as a single one-off freak event) without the result being a collapse and rebuild? One? Ten? A thousand? A million?

First off, it's not "level 10 D&D characters", it's adding 10 levels to existing individuals. So, if this is an e7 world, that's 17th level, even if generally horrifically suboptimal builds.

The biggest issue is, it shouldn't be a one-off freak event; that is, science should be able to study and "replicate" it, if it's a logical part of "world physics".

Ignoring that, giving an e7 society +10 HD to some of its members will give a +10 bonus to the maximum roll achievable, even before additional stat boosts, spells, etc. It will mean a sudden meteoric advancement in all fields, from science to literature to psychology. A new Renaissance, the output of which will be unmatched by any past or future generation.

Which is why keeping these blessed few alive ("alive") will be of such high importance that nations may mandate the sacrifice of their citizens to power Darkcraft scrolls to add Bone / Corpse templates (or Steal Youth, or some alternative solution).

It's not simply an issue of the number, it's... how noticeable the individuals are, how impactful the individuals or their skills are. If the dumbest person you know got the worst class possible, with a build that included things like 10 ranks in Craft: Underwater Basket Weaving, they'd still be much tougher, heal over twice as fast, and suddenly possess skills they didn't yesterday. And, as a gamer, that might be enough for you to catch on to what happened.

Now imagine that that's in parallel with schools reporting students suddenly throwing fireballs, babies talking before the umbilical is cut, and the ____est person on earth getting even ____er. And, apparently, a report of someone who can regrow limbs. Several people who can instantly cure disease. Talking animals. Undead. Dragons. And other clearly supernatural / non-terrestrial beings, all showing up on the same day.

The potential for change is huge. Or mankind could just let out a collective "meh", and wonder what's on TV. At least for a little while, until their lack of concern meets the +10 - +30 bonuses to writing and expression that will eventually hit the media they consume. Assuming someone in the right field got a boost to the right skills, plus magical support.

So the maximum number isn't so much a number, it's more "none with the skills or ability or position or drive/motivation or ability not to cause / to oppose opposition to making any of the changes we foresee". Because once someone with the skills and position and motivation acts unopposed let alone with societal aid, well, that "skills at at least +10 above everyone else" will be game-changing for whatever industry they're in. As would other little things, like magic healing or Divinations or cloned dragons.

So, one person would be 1 too many, if they were a suddenly "Resurrected" Bone Einstein with a Dragon cohort, and +10 skill ranks better understanding of Physics, Mathematics, and at least half-a-dozen other related skills than he had in life. (or replace with Stephen Hawkins, or someone else currently alive in another field where you imagine that expert suddenly getting that much better might matter)

[NichG]

First off, it's not "level 10 D&D characters", it's adding 10 levels to existing individuals. So, if this is an e7 world, that's 17th level, even if generally horrifically suboptimal builds.

The biggest issue is, it shouldn't be a one-off freak event; that is, science should be able to study and "replicate" it, if it's a logical part of "world physics".


There are lots of events in nature that are beyond our capacity to practically replicate and on human timescales are essentially always going to be one-offs. For example the Earth being hit by a mile diameter asteroid or a new star coalescing out of a nebula. We can know why it happens, but that doesn't mean we can easily make it happen on our own schedule.


Ignoring that, giving an e7 society +10 HD to some of its members will give a +10 bonus to the maximum roll achievable, even before additional stat boosts, spells, etc. It will mean a sudden meteoric advancement in all fields, from science to literature to psychology. A new Renaissance, the output of which will be unmatched by any past or future generation.


This is not how I read the spirit of the original scenario, rather that seems to be an extra injected detail. Earth isn't an 'e7 world', its not a world that works on levels at all.



Which is why keeping these blessed few alive ("alive") will be of such high importance that nations may mandate the sacrifice of their citizens to power Darkcraft scrolls to add Bone / Corpse templates (or Steal Youth, or some alternative solution).

It's not simply an issue of the number, it's... how noticeable the individuals are, how impactful the individuals or their skills are. If the dumbest person you know got the worst class possible, with a build that included things like 10 ranks in Craft: Underwater Basket Weaving, they'd still be much tougher, heal over twice as fast, and suddenly possess skills they didn't yesterday. And, as a gamer, that might be enough for you to catch on to what happened.

Now imagine that that's in parallel with schools reporting students suddenly throwing fireballs, babies talking before the umbilical is cut, and the ____est person on earth getting even ____er. And, apparently, a report of someone who can regrow limbs. Several people who can instantly cure disease. Talking animals. Undead. Dragons. And other clearly supernatural / non-terrestrial beings, all showing up on the same day.

The potential for change is huge. Or mankind could just let out a collective "meh", and wonder what's on TV. At least for a little while, until their lack of concern meets the +10 - +30 bonuses to writing and expression that will eventually hit the media they consume. Assuming someone in the right field got a boost to the right skills, plus magical support.

So the maximum number isn't so much a number, it's more "none with the skills or ability or position or drive/motivation or ability not to cause / to oppose opposition to making any of the changes we foresee". Because once someone with the skills and position and motivation acts unopposed let alone with societal aid, well, that "skills at at least +10 above everyone else" will be game-changing for whatever industry they're in. As would other little things, like magic healing or Divinations or cloned dragons.

So, one person would be 1 too many, if they were a suddenly "Resurrected" Bone Einstein with a Dragon cohort, and +10 skill ranks better understanding of Physics, Mathematics, and at least half-a-dozen other related skills than he had in life. (or replace with Stephen Hawkins, or someone else currently alive in another field where you imagine that expert suddenly getting that much better might matter)

Well lets take one person, chosen at random from the population, random roll on the list of core classes.

1d100 to determine where on Earth the person is. 1-55 ~ Asia, 56-64 ~ North America, 65-73 ~ South America, 74-85 ~ Europe, 86-94 ~ Africa, 95-98 ~ Oceania, 99-100 Central America + small islands. I rolled 98! So this is someone in Australia, New Zealand, etc...

1d80+5 to crudely determine their age: I rolled 79! So they're pretty old to begin with.

What kind of job did they have? Well, using this (https://www.statista.com/statistics/436457/employment-by-economic-sector-in-new-zealand/) for the distribution of professions and rolling d100 with 'services' 1-74, industry 74-94, and agriculture 95-100. I rolled an 8! So something something 'services'
This breaks down into 'scientific and technical', 'real estate', 'healthcare and social', 'financial and insurance', 'wholesale', 'retail', 'government', and 'media'. I don't know the ratios though, so lets roll flat: I rolled a 3! So they were a doctor, nurse, health administrator, medical records transcriptionist, etc...

Now the critical roll, character class:
- 1: Fighter
- 2: Rogue
- 3: Paladin
- 4: Bard
- 5: Barbarian
- 6: Ranger
- 7: Cleric
- 8: Wizard
- 9: Sorcerer
- 10: Monk
- 11: Druid

I rolled a 1!

So we now have a 79 year old Lv10 Fighter (or +10 levels Fighter) from New Zealand who was previously, say, a paramedic.

Does this utterly break down the social order and change the world?

[SangoProduction]

You did slightly misinterpret the point they were making. They said 1 person with the skills, position, and motivation.
So it would be a probabilistic argument, not an absolute one.
(Back to lurking)

[Ignimortis]

First, since you don't get to pick your build, there will be a lot of Tordeks. In fact, considering the sheer amounts of cruft printed for 3e, there will be so many Tordeks, like you cannot believe. An actual decent build will be a rarity even among the 80 million. You'd better appreciate that Toughness and Weapon Focus (kitchen knife) and Self-Sufficient on your Warmage, sir or madam!

Second, you're lucky if you're a Rogue. There's no stipulation that magic actually works (if Earth is in a dead magic zone, say goodbye to (Sp) and (Su) stuff), or that you get good spells, or that you get any gear associated with your stuff working. You can be a level 10 Wizard without a spellbook. Enjoy your slightly superior durability and self-control, I guess.

Therefore, to win the hardest, you'd want to become someone with access to Extraordinary abilities (which are outright stated to be capable of breaking physics without being magic) and a way to change them somehow. Good skill list and skill points are also very useful. Furthermore, you'd want to have points in skills that are actually useful.

And I don't need to remind you just how stupid the Diplomacy rules are! By the end of the year, we'll end up with guys in charge who ended up rolling well for CHA, Diplomacy, Bluff and so on. You better hope their alignment doesn't end with "Evil".

[aglondier]

Creative uses of the Item crafting rules can easily sidestep the lack of magical critters and materials. Craft Wondrous Item used to create "Magical Crafting Ingredient" fueled by the casters own magical blood, with the property of being able to substitute for any other required ingredient. Starting with 1gp equivalent and doubling with each iteration, a caster could easily "afford" some pretty hefty items without worrying about lack of unicorn hair or whatever...

Slapping 10 d&d levels onto 1% of the population, assuming a perfectly even distribution across all the peoples, cultures and sects of the world... the majority of gifted would be Chinese or Indian.
New warlords would rise up across Africa and other 3rd world regions.
"Class" testing would quickly remove the gifted from eligibility to compete in world level competitions, though professional sports would snap them up.
New "religious" cults would pop up based around powerful and charismatic individuals. Bards, enchanters, paladins, warlocks...

Established powers and institutions would push back against the gifted. Measures put in place to protect politicians and captains of industry against enchantment magicks...and disguise magicks...

[Quertus]

You did slightly misinterpret the point they were making. They said 1 person with the skills, position, and motivation.
So it would be a probabilistic argument, not an absolute one.
(Back to lurking)

This is, indeed, the most important response. Thank you for making it, and making it clearly. Kudos!

For the less important stuff...


There are lots of events in nature that are beyond our capacity to practically replicate and on human timescales are essentially always going to be one-offs. For example the Earth being hit by a mile diameter asteroid or a new star coalescing out of a nebula. We can know why it happens, but that doesn't mean we can easily make it happen on our own schedule.

True. I should have expected you'd call me on this one. There is definitely an "if possible" in there, tied in with an uncharacteristic bit of optimism on my part wrt the odds of success, based perhaps on a combination of the influx of magic and sudden boost in skills, and the interest of science / government / etc.


This is not how I read the spirit of the original scenario, rather that seems to be an extra injected detail. Earth isn't an 'e7 world', its not a world that works on levels at all.

Ah... how to put it... "Earth is an e7 world" isn't fact, it's afaict a playground-accepted estimate. While I personally disagree, supposedly the closest estimate/translation for the capabilities of those in this world to D&D 3e terms is that Earth is an e7 world.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not (I don't), it still is useful for grounding the effects of adding levels; ie, 10 HD heals 10 HP per day... OK, but what is everyone else on Earth healing? adding 10 HD adds +10 skill ranks... OK, but what kind of bonuses is everyone else already rolling?

Regardless, getting even a +10 to rolls (ie, getting a +10 no matter what the rolls looked like beforehand) is going to be game-changing for those individuals. But, with the estimate of an e7 world, it'll be game-changing for society as a whole when there's a sudden influx of new experts that make existing experts look like dunces, doubly so if existing experts like Steven Hawking suddenly gets that +10 bonus. Fields are going to be revolutionized. That's the importance of grounding what "10 HD" means to this world.


Well lets take one person, chosen at random from the population, random roll on the list of core classes.

...

So we now have a 79 year old Lv10 Fighter (or +10 levels Fighter) from New Zealand who was previously, say, a paramedic.

Does this utterly break down the social order and change the world?

It depends a bit on whether the class and build line up with their inclinations or not.

If that +10 BAB makes them a better marksman than any military unit in the world, and they break Olympic and World records, it'll certainly be noticeable. And if they claim to do so with no training, and that this 79-year-old claims that their health spontaneously got better, their wounds started healing faster (which can be big at that age)? And that they spontaneously mastered Craft: Underwater Basket Weaving and Swimming? Plus whatever they got from their feats?

Sure, most might disregard it as a hoax, or view it as a simple curiosity, or slot it into their existing beliefs of past life skill emergence or something. But it should still merit some interest and study by a few individuals / groups.

Mandating that the event can't be reproduced certainly cuts off the best avenue for true change here. However, even if the event can't be reproduced, if it can be understood, it potentially opens up a whole new branch of science. What that branch is depends on the mechanics - were those who called "past life skill infusion" actually correct, or is this caused by dimensions or energies we previously hadn't perceived, or...? And even if the event cannot be reproduced, what can we do with this new tool? That certainly has potential impact on society.

Or maybe they get skill points in being a paramedic, and write books revolutionizing the field of being a paramedic, which may become required reading for all paramedics, or may be as helpful as me writing programming books that say "don't write bugs!".

Point is, they spontaneously became superior to existing people in potentially numerous ways, and it's largely a question of how well they can leverage that, and how much scientists can learn from that, that determines how much society is impacted.

It's also a question of how difficult it is to ignore, and you've dropped out one of the best categories: the 0-5 age range. Interestingly, this is IIRC the range during which who you are as a person is developed, so there's some argument to be made for dropping this age range for the scenario in which the build is based on one's inclinations (not a good argument, necessarily, but still). And it becomes much more difficult to ignore once you've got the first caster who doesn't die to police gunfire for throwing a fireball in a school or some such (note that "the government silencing reports" counts as it not being ignored for purposes of tests and scientific advancement).

But, yes, it's ultimately a probabilistic argument, not one of numbers, that change happens when the right ability is granted to at least one person who makes that change happen. And those odds increase when abilities are granted based on the person's inclinations (so Steven Hawkins presumably gets Physics, not Craft: Underwater Basket Weaving), and when you add in classes outside just the PHB core classes.


There's no stipulation that magic actually works (if Earth is in a dead magic zone, say goodbye to (Sp) and (Su) stuff),

That... is a fair point. Usually that's ignored in thought experiments like this, but yeah, spontaneously gaining +10 Wizard levels in a Dead Zone is kinda weak. Even if that Wizard can put those skill ranks to good use, it's kinda a sad waste of potential.


And I don't need to remind you just how stupid the Diplomacy rules are! By the end of the year, we'll end up with guys in charge who ended up rolling well for CHA, Diplomacy, Bluff and so on. You better hope their alignment doesn't end with "Evil".

If world physics break down enough to allow some people's misinterpretation of Diplomacy... we might just have world peace, even without anyone getting empowered. So, win? :smallbiggrin:


Creative uses of the Item crafting rules can easily sidestep the lack of magical critters and materials. Craft Wondrous Item used to create "Magical Crafting Ingredient" fueled by the casters own magical blood, with the property of being able to substitute for any other required ingredient. Starting with 1gp equivalent and doubling with each iteration, a caster could easily "afford" some pretty hefty items without worrying about lack of unicorn hair or whatever...

Which makes as much sense as "creative use of the skill system can easily sidestep other problems; for example, by taking ranks in Profession: God-Emperor of the World/Universe, I no longer have to worry about these pesky world governments making silly laws, or my own mortality". I'll grant it's creative, just... not likely to be terribly effective at its desired goal.

That said, yes, things like "bones of an Archamagus" absolutely could be used as a component to craft certain items. Just... where are you getting the Unicorn Hair, Magisite stone, Beholder Eyes, and Anthropomorphic Toad slime to go with them?

It would take someone with at least my skills, and probably more, to be able to create a magical item out of materials from this world. Still, it would be a good way to bootstrap scientists towards understanding and reproducing such magical phenomena.

[Metastachydium]

This is not how I read the spirit of the original scenario, rather that seems to be an extra injected detail. Earth isn't an 'e7 world', its not a world that works on levels at all.

The issue is, while E7 is quite arbitrary if you ask me, I'd stress again that if normal Earth stuff doesn't get stats, most PC abilities won't be able to meaningfully interact with the world at all. To-hit only makes sense insofar as it can be measured against an AC; damage relies on things damaged having hp; save DCs are as strong or weak as the saves they target are weak or strong. The list goes on and on.

[NichG]

Ah... how to put it... "Earth is an e7 world" isn't fact, it's afaict a playground-accepted estimate. While I personally disagree, supposedly the closest estimate/translation for the capabilities of those in this world to D&D 3e terms is that Earth is an e7 world.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not (I don't), it still is useful for grounding the effects of adding levels; ie, 10 HD heals 10 HP per day... OK, but what is everyone else on Earth healing? adding 10 HD adds +10 skill ranks... OK, but what kind of bonuses is everyone else already rolling?

Regardless, getting even a +10 to rolls (ie, getting a +10 no matter what the rolls looked like beforehand) is going to be game-changing for those individuals. But, with the estimate of an e7 world, it'll be game-changing for society as a whole when there's a sudden influx of new experts that make existing experts look like dunces, doubly so if existing experts like Steven Hawking suddenly gets that +10 bonus. Fields are going to be revolutionized. That's the importance of grounding what "10 HD" means to this world.



The issue is, while E7 is quite arbitrary if you ask me, I'd stress again that if normal Earth stuff doesn't get stats, most PC abilities won't be able to meaningfully interact with the world at all. To-hit only makes sense insofar as it can be measured against an AC; damage relies on things damaged having hp; save DCs are as strong or weak as the saves they target are weak or strong. The list goes on and on.

There are groundings of some of these things at least. We know the AC of a 5ft square and the probabilities that someone should be able to land a thrown object in it. We know the DCs of various diseases (even if these are fantasy diseases) and that the only mechanism for a 3.5e D&D character to naturally recover from a disease is to make two saving throws in a row against it.

These things can often disagree with the real world of course. Which means that 'becoming a D&D character' is likely to come with a bunch of maluses as well as bonuses. On the plus side, you can maybe permanently cure someone's HIV with nothing but taking care of them for two days, you just need to have Knowledge to know things, not actually have learned them, and severe injuries won't impact your performance of any kind of task unless they knock you out or kill you or literally remove a limb. On the minus side, hospital care might end up just being a +2 circumstance bonus and basically do next to nothing for you - if getting over cancer in your leg naturally would have required two DC 30 Fort saves in a row, then the only thing that really matters is your doctor's Heal check and not the fact that they amputated the leg.

So rather than saying 'ah, we were all D&D characters all along', it seems better to stick the weirdness with the people who got weirded, and render things through the groundings and what the stats 'let you do' rather than treating the stats as if they were always real.

Also, along these lines, because D&D skills are relatively narrow and proscribed, sadly even someone getting a bunch of Knowledge skills won't help them directly revolutionize electrical engineering or chemistry or physics, since those things do not have Knowledge skills in D&D (d20 Modern on the other hand)... So you might get a Stephen Hawking who is really excellent at medieval methods of bridge construction.



It depends a bit on whether the class and build line up with their inclinations or not.

If that +10 BAB makes them a better marksman than any military unit in the world, and they break Olympic and World records, it'll certainly be noticeable. And if they claim to do so with no training, and that this 79-year-old claims that their health spontaneously got better, their wounds started healing faster (which can be big at that age)? And that they spontaneously mastered Craft: Underwater Basket Weaving and Swimming? Plus whatever they got from their feats?

Sure, most might disregard it as a hoax, or view it as a simple curiosity, or slot it into their existing beliefs of past life skill emergence or something. But it should still merit some interest and study by a few individuals / groups.

Mandating that the event can't be reproduced certainly cuts off the best avenue for true change here. However, even if the event can't be reproduced, if it can be understood, it potentially opens up a whole new branch of science. What that branch is depends on the mechanics - were those who called "past life skill infusion" actually correct, or is this caused by dimensions or energies we previously hadn't perceived, or...? And even if the event cannot be reproduced, what can we do with this new tool? That certainly has potential impact on society.

Or maybe they get skill points in being a paramedic, and write books revolutionizing the field of being a paramedic, which may become required reading for all paramedics, or may be as helpful as me writing programming books that say "don't write bugs!".

Point is, they spontaneously became superior to existing people in potentially numerous ways, and it's largely a question of how well they can leverage that, and how much scientists can learn from that, that determines how much society is impacted.

It's also a question of how difficult it is to ignore, and you've dropped out one of the best categories: the 0-5 age range. Interestingly, this is IIRC the range during which who you are as a person is developed, so there's some argument to be made for dropping this age range for the scenario in which the build is based on one's inclinations (not a good argument, necessarily, but still). And it becomes much more difficult to ignore once you've got the first caster who doesn't die to police gunfire for throwing a fireball in a school or some such (note that "the government silencing reports" counts as it not being ignored for purposes of tests and scientific advancement).

But, yes, it's ultimately a probabilistic argument, not one of numbers, that change happens when the right ability is granted to at least one person who makes that change happen. And those odds increase when abilities are granted based on the person's inclinations (so Steven Hawkins presumably gets Physics, not Craft: Underwater Basket Weaving), and when you add in classes outside just the PHB core classes.


Mostly my point in asking the question was to pick out the arguments that 'this is a singular perturbation - most of the effect on society comes from the possibilities suggested by the fact that it happened and not the military or social force represented by the actual characters' versus arguments that boiled down to who would win between a US military sniper and a Lv10 Barbarian facing each-other down across a 200ft grassy field. Since I think there's a tendency to not actually really conceptualize what sheer numbers do at the scale of civilization and societies and militaries and such. Which is natural for a tabletop setting because at the end of the day the DM has to take actions for everyone and they don't have the 10 million brains to simultaneously make reasonable decisions for 10 million people who might respond to an event. Even the table time cost of, say, rolling attack rolls for a company of 1000 archers (and the inherent feeling of unfairness when such a thing gets deployed against PCs and run by individual picked shots rather than by abstracting into volley fire as AoE and things like that).

The point being, I suppose, that 'the structure of society' survived the existence of people like Einstein. So something being remarkable or valuable or powerful doesn't suddenly mean the world collapses. It can mean that the world marks the event and the contributions or actions of those people, and those things become a part of history. So if there's an argument that 'no, fundamentally this particular one structurally changes that regardless of the individual power of the person', fair enough.

But if its a probabilistic argument of 'roll until Pun-Pun happens' then actually putting numbers to the scales of things seems important. Because maybe 1% of the world population actually isn't enough to roll Pun-Pun.

[Maat Mons]

Interestingly, Paizo published both a spell, Blood money, for using Con damage to substitute for expensive material components, and their own version of the True Creation spell, which uses an expensive material component instead of an xp cost. Sadly, one was for Pathfinder, and the other was for 3.5, so you’d need to mix editions to literally turn your blood into components for magic item crafting.

Also, Pathfinder’s version of Wish uses an expensive material component instead of an xp cost. But Pathfinder’s version of Wish doesn’t allow for the creation of magic items. So there’s no directly converting your blood into magic items.

Ah well, there’s still the Dark Craft rules from BoVD.

[Vahnavoi]

For those saying 'everything would change, the social order would break down, !!!' - what is the maximum number of randomly distributed Lv10 D&D characters you think could be added to the modern world (as a single one-off freak event) without the result being a collapse and rebuild? One? Ten? A thousand? A million?

Conservatively between hundred thousand and a million. That is when the magnitude of the effect rises above noise of daily human replacement and you can start to expect significant numbers of people who have well-matched class and abilities. Though what I said is less about collapse and more about when the chaos added to the system overwhelms our abilities of prediction.

For contrast, somewhere between one and two hundred thousand people die each day, and three hundred thousand are born. A sudden change of tens of thousands of people or less, randomly distributed across the world, likely gets lost in the noise, at least in the short term. Hundreds of thousands is a noticeable spike that likely can't be ignored, but the effect will be smoothed over. Millions to tens of millions is such a massive spike that world would go bananas.

[Quertus]

But if its a probabilistic argument of 'roll until Pun-Pun happens' then actually putting numbers to the scales of things seems important. Because maybe 1% of the world population actually isn't enough to roll Pun-Pun.

Maybe. Or maybe the first person rolls Pun-Pun. Which is why I cannot answer questions based on “how many…”.


The point being, I suppose, that 'the structure of society' survived the existence of people like Einstein. So something being remarkable or valuable or powerful doesn't suddenly mean the world collapses.

Yeah, to be fair, I’m more “change” than “collapse” for such variables (Although technically collapse is a form of change…). My point is more that there’s so many reasons that the world might not be the same again, that someone from 1999 who woke up after a few hundred years of cryo-sleep might be very confused.


So rather than saying 'ah, we were all D&D characters all along', it seems better to stick the weirdness with the people who got weirded, and render things through the groundings and what the stats 'let you do' rather than treating the stats as if they were always real.

I think we’re talking past each other here. I’m actually advocating (very quietly, as it seems the opposite of my usual stance, but actually isn’t) that nobody contracts the weirdness, *but* that the value of the addition of 10 levels be calibrated by the accepted (generally, if not specifically by me) metric of “Earth as an e7 world”.

That is, no, earth isn’t e7, but by adding 10 levels, we’re creating people superior to those already here, even if those levels are added to the worst of us.


Also, along these lines, because D&D skills are relatively narrow and proscribed, sadly even someone getting a bunch of Knowledge skills won't help them directly revolutionize electrical engineering or chemistry or physics, since those things do not have Knowledge skills in D&D (d20 Modern on the other hand)... So you might get a Stephen Hawking who is really excellent at medieval methods of bridge construction.

Along the lines of nobody getting the weirdness, and especially in the case where what is granted matches people’s predispositions, I prefer the loose interpretation that the “Earth” splat can introduce new skills, just like how Lucid Dreaming and Iaijutsu Focus weren’t skills in the PH.

——-

Ultimately, what assumptions one walks in with, and how one interprets the data, will affect what outcome they perceive. I hope I’ve stated my assumptions / givens more clearly at this point?

[El Dorado]

Does this include NPC classes? If so, wouldn't we have a bunch of commoners and experts?

[NichG]

Maybe. Or maybe the first person rolls Pun-Pun. Which is why I cannot answer questions based on “how many…”.

It's also possible for every particle on Earth to spontaneously rearrange to force us all to re-enact the HMS Pinafore before returning us to our previous states but with memories of the event. The probability though is the inverse of the kind of number you right with up-arrow notation, e.g. 1 in 10^^10 sort of thing. But you'd (hopefully) not conclude that such an event must be inevitably considered first and foremost when thinking about the consequences of quantum mechanics.

One way to think about these sorts of things concretely is to ask something like 'what is the LD50 of D&D characters for the survival of Earth-like societies?'. E.g. if you had an infinite array of copies of Earth and in each one you did this experiment, but with different numbers of rolls on the random-empowerment tables, what would be the number of D&D characters you would need to add such that (an additional above baseline) 50% of the worlds in that particular cohort end up having a societal collapse or massive change?



I think we’re talking past each other here. I’m actually advocating (very quietly, as it seems the opposite of my usual stance, but actually isn’t) that nobody contracts the weirdness, *but* that the value of the addition of 10 levels be calibrated by the accepted (generally, if not specifically by me) metric of “Earth as an e7 world”.

That is, no, earth isn’t e7, but by adding 10 levels, we’re creating people superior to those already here, even if those levels are added to the worst of us.


Eh, this seems like arguing from the desired conclusion rather than actually following the premise forward. E.g. it already decides that making someone a D&D character must make them 'superior', which in turn implies the kind of 'can A defeat B?' mindset is the one to use to evaluate the scenario. But for example in the case of the 79 year old fighter-paramedic, becoming a D&D character with 10 Fighter levels probably will improve her life in certain ways, but in most ways she probably won't even notice it. Will she notice +10 to hit things if most of the time she's watching dramas on TV and gardening and visiting her grandkids? Maybe she'll play a killer game of darts at the local pub, if she even plays darts to begin with. And having to use the D&D aging bonuses/penalties might mean she suddenly becomes much more intelligent, wise, and charismatic than she had actually been; but in turn she might end up becoming much more significantly physically impeded than she had been before getting the D&D-ification. Because not every real human loses strength, nimbleness, and general health in the same way.

Looking at only the cases where things line up (or assuming that the rules must be such that that maximum synergy is even possible), defining away the negative consequences, etc - in short, starting from an assumption of superiority rather than needing to get there step by step - is kind of putting an answer in and then fudging the details to make it happen. But if you don't do that, then the world's best computer scientist will still more likely than not be someone who didn't get the D&D-juice, because there's no skill that makes you good at that in the particular way that matters for society. Even if you allow Profession: Computer Scientist, that's entirely about routine performance of duties of the job, not actually being able to advance computer science in formative ways: "You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems." So that 13 rank Computer Scientist's superpower is the ability to earn ~12gp per week doing the job (assuming a decent Wis), or about a pound of gold a month. Which is ~$23000/month, certainly not bad, but there are many people at MS, OpenAI, Google, etc making more than that in computer scientist type roles.

Perhaps the thing that would really freak people out wouldn't be the obvious stacking skill into something socially important, but instead someone who manages to make $23000/month as a schoolbus driver or DMV clerk. Because that would take quite some reality distortion...

[icefractal]

Maybe. Or maybe the first person rolls Pun-Pun. Which is why I cannot answer questions based on “how many…”.That's a good example of why I feel this question isn't really defined enough to answer.

I have a whole post about "what do you specifically mean when you talk about D&D stuff in the real world, because there are a substantial number of things to pin down", which I'll see if I can find, but in this example alone:
* Does Pazuzu exist, if you're taking that approach?
* Do Efreet exist to be called, if you're taking that approach?
* Even with the original Psion entry, do Sarrukh exist to be metamorphed into?

And that's really an issue with any creature-using strategy. If "RL Earth" is considered its own multiverse, with no other planes besides the Material, then anything conjuring-based is just a non-starter. But if we consider it to be a single plane within, say, the Forgotten Realms multiverse, the answer is very different.

[Quertus]

Eh, this seems like arguing from the desired conclusion rather than actually following the premise forward. E.g. it already decides that making someone a D&D character must make them 'superior', which in turn implies the kind of 'can A defeat B?' mindset is the one to use to evaluate the scenario.

starting from an assumption of superiority rather than needing to get there step by step - is kind of putting an answer in and then fudging the details to make it happen.

Pretty much, yeah. I'm doing an apples to apples of comparing the abstractions, noting that 10 > 7, and using that as my baseline for saying, "so, we're adding in true masters that surpass normal human abilities in their fields at a baseline, and, if their numbers happen to line up, 10+7=17 is just how far beyond anything that's come before we'd be looking at". That is, indeed, the baseline assumption for... for any of my predictions where a comparison of existent humans vs empowered ones matters. Spot on. Use the abstraction to compare, look to "reality" / "not the weirdness" to set your expectations for their capabilities (whenever possible).

Alternately, we can have physics as we know it completely break down, everyone contracts the weirdness, Diplomacy works the way some people think it does, and we get world peace even without anyone being empowered. I prefer my way, without the weirdness (at least in the context of this thread).

Now, yes, as you pointed out, a lot of that "they're just that good" (like the 79yo paramedic's ability to hit targets) might not come up, or might be put to highly suboptimal use (which is why I mentioned them breaking Olympic and world records for marksmanship, as something they could now do). Thus my requirement regarding the abilities happening to be given to someone who can and will actually make something of them. And when they do, they'll master and hopefully revolutionize their field as surely as the greatest masters in history. Your "bus driver" might take their boosted skills (I say with emphasis on purging the weirdness) and revolutionize NASCAR or Indianapolis 500 or armored limo security driving or something, if their skills don't contract the weirdness, and they use them optimally.

[Vahnavoi]

Perhaps the thing that would really freak people out wouldn't be the obvious stacking skill into something socially important, but instead someone who manages to make $23000/month as a schoolbus driver or DMV clerk. Because that would take quite some reality distortion...

Schoolbus driber or DMV clerk? Try goat farmer or a street performer in one of the poorest countries of the world. With random distribution, lot of the superpowered people will be expected to end up in poor but populous areas. That's what really going to blow an economist's brain.

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EDIT:

@Icefractal: older editions of D&D outright have rules for how to treat Earth as part of D&D's cosmology. Of course, going by those rules (from Manual of Planes if I recall right), Earth is mid-to-high physics and low magic crystal sphere. Meaning, not only are divine interventions (including Pazuzu here) so rare as to be negligible, a lot of magic will also just not work.

But even with that, sudden inclusion of D&D rules would imply that a certain esoteric theosophic beliefs of the real world have to be true, because those are the inspiration behind the great wheel. I would not worry about Pun-Pun or other dubiously-rules-legal idiosyncratic hobbyists inventions. I would be worrying about sudden realism of mythological entities D&D ripped off from real-life myth.