Anything in PHB II to look out for?

[Mars Ultor]

A player got a copy of the PHB II and wants to use it when we start the summer campaign. Is there anything in there I need to be aware of? Any problems with classes, races, rules?

[tyckspoon]

Arcane Thesis is really, really strong for blasters - it's a key element in supercharging a spell with metamagics, but that's really the only archetype that gets a lot of use from it (it's for that player who just wants to cast Fireball at everything, basically.) Beguiler is pretty strong, because even being a caster class focused on some of the weaker spell schools it's still a caster. Just about everything else in the book is, IIRC, basically ok and trends to the weak side - it's still in that period where WoTC designers were hesitant to do anything too aggressive because they thought the game balance was a lot more fragile than it is.

[Rebel7284]

Abrupt Jaunt, if used wisely, can make Wizards much more durable, especially at lower levels (also has some rules questions about what sort of ability it is). Overall, the book is reasonably well balanced and fun.

[Troacctid]

It's an excellent book and I highly recommend it. The designers did a great job of putting fun first and creating content that just plays really well. Almost every ACF is a banger, there are a ton of cool and interesting feats to support different strategies, the retraining rules are a much-needed addition to the system, and there are a host of new swift and immediate action spells that give casters more dynamic turns.

Things in it I would look out for. Arcane Thesis and Abrupt Jaunt have already been mentioned as being especially strong, and I'll add Celerity to that list of potentially dangerous effects, but I think the more important concern is that the Knight and the Dragon Shaman are both underpowered in disappointing ways: the knight simply isn't very good at what it's trying to do and regularly falls flat, while the dragon shaman doesn't have a lot to do in the first place (past the very early levels). If your player has their eye on either of those classes, be aware that they may underperform past level 5 or so, especially if they don't find good magic items to help them keep up.

[Anthrowhale]

In my experience, Arcane Thesis [Arcane Fusion] is the most interesting/broken usage of Arcane Thesis.

Edit: I'd add that the retraining rules for skills are not broken, but they are a little bit surprising in that you can effectively buy up to 4 cross-class skills at in-class rates for previously-in-class skills.

[Akal Saris]

Note that the complete spell lists for the Beguilder and Warcaster is at the end of their sections. It is NOT the list of spells for each class in the "Spells" section, which is only their new spells from the PHBII. I had a new-ish player choose Beguiler and he was mixed up about that, so he thought he only got an option of two different spells at some levels, but didn't explain his confusion until he had been playing for 4+ sessions.

[Biggus]

The retraining rules are not broken, but they are somewhat abusable if you allow completely unrestricted retraining, I'm struggling to think of specific examples right now but I've seen quite a few builds on these boards which used them to get OP combos they wouldn't have been able to get otherwise.

[Thurbane]

A player got a copy of the PHB II and wants to use it when we start the summer campaign. Is there anything in there I need to be aware of? Any problems with classes, races, rules?

Two of the classes are generally considered to be weaksauce: Dragon Shaman and Knight. Personally, I played a DS and enjoyed it, but I'm in a very low op group.

Dragonfire Adept (Dragon magic) and Crusader (Tome of battle) fill the same general roles, respectively, and do a much better job at it.

Beguiler and Duskblade are both eminently playable.

[Inevitability]

Beguilers are generally considered to be weaker than sorcerers and wizards; you could build a sorcerer/wizard that picks most of the good beguiler spells and has space left over to delve into the other six schools of magic as well. That said, to a new, inexperienced, or generally low-op player, a beguiler is likely to feel much stronger simply due to the fixed-list mechanic guaranteeing that you'll always have some useful spells on hand. The class is still pretty narrow, and there's a lot of things it just can't do, so in a party with no doubles for the utility/trapfinding role it should be strong but not overpowering.


A few of the PHB2 classes later got some class features added in an online article (https://web.archive.org/web/20070302074855/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x). It's all very minor stuff; beguilers get better at transmitting secret messages, duskblades are better at gathering information among elves, none of it should break the game or affect it much, but there's some nice flavor to it.

[AsuraKyoko]

Just to throw my hat on the pile, I agree with the general consensus here: the book has a bunch of pretty good stuff, and the Beguiler and Duskblade in particular are pretty great and fun. It does have a few spells that are very, very powerful (like Celerity), but overall it's a pretty well made book.

[Chronos]

A beguiler will definitely outperform a sorcerer for the first few levels, at least, because all of the best early spells for a sorcerer are on the beguiler list, and then some. After a while, though, any sorcerer is going to want to branch out for more versatility, an option that the beguiler mostly lacks. Overall, it's a pretty well-designed class: Very good at what it does, and it can almost always find something to do that's not completely ineffective, but what it can do is still fairly narrow.

Duskblade, I think, is a bit short of its reputation: It's basically a blaster mage that can also use a sword, and blasting and swording are neither one particularly optimal in this game. But if blasting and using a sword is what you want, it does about as good a job at that as you're going to find.

A dragon shaman definitely adds a lot of value to a party, through its auras (which it gets a lot of, they scale well, and they're efficient to use). The biggest problem with the dragon shaman is that it's boring. Sure, your aura is constantly buffing all of your friends, but what do you do? Aside from approximately one breath weapon per combat, once you get a bit into the class, you're going to be spending most of your actions on just attacking, which is something you're not particularly good at (no martial weapon proficiency, only a medium BAB progression, and no class features that affect attacks).

Knight should have just been a set of fighter feats. You can clearly see the goal they were working towards, a tank who could actually hold aggro, but there's just nothing particularly distinctive to it that says "This should be its own class".

[Khedrac]

Dragon Shaman works best when paired with someone who can change them into other forms (currnetly the dragon shaman in our party is having enormous fun as a woolly mammoth).
Both their aura and their breath weapon work when polymorphed, and with a d12 hit die and con-based abilities they probably have more hit points than anyone else in the party, polymorphing them into a strength-based ceature and their medium BAB will enable them to hit most fo the time for better damage than they can do as themselves.

One under-noticed bonus is their healing ability which is what lay on hands should be but isn't. At medium levels they are the go-to for removing ability damage, not the casters.

[Darg]

If you don't want abrupt jaunt to be unbalanced, simply don't allow it to eat actions. Basically, if they use it right before an enemy attacks the enemy still has their standard and the rest of their movement. It's plenty tactically useful without being a controller too.

Celerity is really only unbalancing once you get up into the higher levels where you have excess spell slots and immunity to daze becomes more common. Just remember that extra actions don't allow 1 round cast time spells to finish more quickly, not that that is much of a "weakness."

[Telonius]

For Beguilers: they're casters, and can do interesting things in combat. But if a player is picking a Beguiler as their class, most of the time it's because they want to play a sneaky, social, trickster caster (whose name isn't Bard). As DM, make sure you give them chances to use that shtick, and don't shut them down every time with foes that can't be charmed (Undead, etc).

[Thunder999]

It's mostly fine, but it's where Celerity comes from and just taking any standard action you want as an immediate action is extremely powerful even without any crazy combos (and beware the combo with Arcane Fusion which just lets you keep generating more actions until the slots run out).

[Darg]

That only happens from daze immunity. If you don't want celerity to scale up to be broken just make it so that the spell fizzles if the character is immune to daze or just say it bypasses daze immunity. Then again if we take the glossary definition of immunity from the MMs as rules text, a creature immune to daze simply can't benefit from celerity as they can't be harmed or benefit from the effect they are immune from and a spell is described as a single effect.

[Zancloufer]

Beguiler and Duskblade are solid "Combo Classes" with Beguiler being a Rouge with some "sneaky/social" magic and Duskblade being a blaster gish. Neither is super powerful but works fine outside of the box and fills 1.5 party niches cleanly.

Celerity can be a bit silly if you somehow get daze immunity or instant recovery but it at least burns spell slots quickly if abused and if you eat the downside is just a really nice tactical option for casters.

Arcane Fusion when combined with Rapid Meta-Magic and Sanctum spell straight up breaks everything. Literally one of the worst TO tricks out there. Technically possible by RAW but should get house-ruled immediately that your can't Arcane Fusion, well Arcane Fusion. Pretty sure if you somehow added something like Create Water (cough Rainbow Servant) to the sorcerer spell list it's straight up Armageddon the spell.

[Thunder999]

That only happens from daze immunity. If you don't want celerity to scale up to be broken just make it so that the spell fizzles if the character is immune to daze or just say it bypasses daze immunity. Then again if we take the glossary definition of immunity from the MMs as rules text, a creature immune to daze simply can't benefit from celerity as they can't be harmed or benefit from the effect they are immune from and a spell is described as a single effect.

You really don't need Daze Immunity.

An immediate action to take your turn right now is still powerful when it isn't generating actions.
Not as crazy, but still enough that you have to plan every encounter around it, because the wizard (or whoever) can always just interrupt enemy casters mid-cast for easy spell disruption and can negate most things that would target them if they just cast a wall or such.

[Anthrowhale]

Arcane Fusion when combined with Rapid Meta-Magic and Sanctum spell straight up breaks everything.
This doesn't actually work. A Sanctum spell uses a spell slot of it's normal level (i.e. 5th for Sanctum Arcane Fusion). Since AF relies on the metamagic adjusted spell slot level (i.e. 5th), it's not legal to cast with AF.

[Crake]

A beguiler will definitely outperform a sorcerer for the first few levels, at least, because all of the best early spells for a sorcerer are on the beguiler list, and then some. After a while, though, any sorcerer is going to want to branch out for more versatility, an option that the beguiler mostly lacks. Overall, it's a pretty well-designed class: Very good at what it does, and it can almost always find something to do that's not completely ineffective, but what it can do is still fairly narrow.

If you allow the eclectic learning ACF for beguilers, that opens up their choices a fair bit, even if it does make it a bit rough by bumping the spell level up by 1

[RexDart]

Duskblade, I think, is a bit short of its reputation: It's basically a blaster mage that can also use a sword, and blasting and swording are neither one particularly optimal in this game. But if blasting and using a sword is what you want, it does about as good a job at that as you're going to find.


My DM greatly improved the Duskblade by making several changes, most notably changing it to a Charisma-based class and adding a bunch of logical spells to the Duskblade spell list. Particularly more spells that can be channeled through the Duskblade's weapon and that give them some versatility without straying too far from the concept.

[Gruftzwerg]

This doesn't actually work. A Sanctum spell uses a spell slot of it's normal level (i.e. 5th for Sanctum Arcane Fusion). Since AF relies on the metamagic adjusted spell slot level (i.e. 5th), it's not legal to cast with AF.

I think you might have missed the errata:


Page 96 – Arcane Fusion [Addition] Include clause, “If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.”

By RAW it asks for "spell level" and not for "spell slot level".
While they tried to fix AF with the errata, in reality they failed and made it more broken.

3.5 as we all know and love it...


edit: I'm confused. Did you somehow did change your mind on this topic`? I thought I was remembering that you have even commented on one of my builds (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639734-Cooperative-Dvati-Sorcerers-of-the-Arcane-Legions) that even makes use of this TO combo. And yeah you did and you didn't see a problem with that back then ..
As said I'm confused by your change in mind here. I'm just curious and irritated..^^
Or was it that you just missed it because you where focusing on other aspects (like the Arcane Thesis: Arcane Fusion cheese that it also works for the Greater variant), dunno?

[Darg]

I think you might have missed the errata:


By RAW it asks for "spell level" and not for "spell slot level".
While they tried to fix AF with the errata, in reality they failed and made it more broken.

3.5 as we all know and love it...


edit: I'm confused. Did you somehow did change your mind on this topic`? I thought I was remembering that you have even commented on one of my builds (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639734-Cooperative-Dvati-Sorcerers-of-the-Arcane-Legions) that even makes use of this TO combo. And yeah you did and you didn't see a problem with that back then ..
As said I'm confused by your change in mind here. I'm just curious and irritated..^^
Or was it that you just missed it because you where focusing on other aspects (like the Arcane Thesis: Arcane Fusion cheese that it also works for the Greater variant), dunno?

Except you have one problem with metamagics like heighten/sanctum spell: it only adjusts the effective spell level when cast. At the time of selection it has yet to be cast and thus does not benefit from the feat just yet. Otherwise you'd normally be able to prepare and cast sanctum spells at lower or higher spell slots without abusing arcane fusion. We know this is not the case because the feat would have mentioned that instead of saying it uses spell slots of the same level.

Also in the case of metamagic, "spell slot level" and "spell level" are synonymous according to the PHB and the SRD.

[Anthrowhale]

edit: I'm confused. Did you somehow did change your mind on this topic`?

In general, a disagreement with a part of a build should not be interpreted as agreement with other parts.

If you really think that they didn't mean 'spell slot level' when they said 'spell level', then the ideologically sound position is that you can cast a Twin Repeat Maximized Empowered Enervated Transdimensional Blistering Fiery Orb of Fire inside Arcane Fusion, since it is "only a 4th level spell". However, as Darg says, in this context it's clearly referring to the metamagic adjusted spell slot level.

[Wildstag]

My favorite feat from the book is also one that could possibly be a stumbling block for GMs not expecting it. Steadfast Determination reworks both Will and Fortitude saving throws.

Firstly, it replaces the Wisdom modifier on saving throws with Constitution modifier, which can be a big boon for the martials.

Secondly, it makes it so a roll of a 1 is no longer an automatic failure on a Fortitude saving throw. If their saving throw is high enough, they might just trivialize certain saving throws (it's always fun when the GM asks for a roll, you nat 1, but even with the low roll you pass the Fort save).

[Gruftzwerg]

In general, a disagreement with a part of a build should not be interpreted as agreement with other parts.

If you really think that they didn't mean 'spell slot level' when they said 'spell level', then the ideologically sound position is that you can cast a Twin Repeat Maximized Empowered Enervated Transdimensional Blistering Fiery Orb of Fire inside Arcane Fusion, since it is "only a 4th level spell". However, as Darg says, in this context it's clearly referring to the metamagic adjusted spell slot level.

I get what you mean and the intentions of the authors here (RAI). But RAW they simply failed. And since this was meant as correction to the very same problem, it's really unbelievable that they manged to use that keyword which would exactly cause that problem...

RAI, I know what the errata was supposed to do.
But that doesn't change the fact that they simply failed by RAW here.

Normally one should expect that a correction doesn't repeat the very same problem... but they managed it somehow..

WotC's quality management in 3.5 was just awful and this is a good example for that.

[Darg]

I get what you mean and the intentions of the authors here (RAI). But RAW they simply failed. And since this was meant as correction to the very same problem, it's really unbelievable that they manged to use that keyword which would exactly cause that problem...

RAI, I know what the errata was supposed to do.
But that doesn't change the fact that they simply failed by RAW here.

Normally one should expect that a correction doesn't repeat the very same problem... but they managed it somehow..

WotC's quality management in 3.5 was just awful and this is a good example for that.

Again please, look at the PHB (for more corroborating text) or the SRD for rules about metamagic feats. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) It tells you that spell slot changes are changes to its spell level for the purposes of preparation and casting, regardless of the metamagic used. Therefore the benefit of sanctum spell must assume that the general rules are true and modify them from there. It does not. Rules are designed so that more general rules are assumed to function unless otherwise stated not to function. Sanctum spell specifically says it uses a slot of the spell's normal level regardless of the effective spell level modifier. The tense and use of "cast" in the description of sanctum spell leaves no room for interpretation as the only comprehensible understanding is the spell must take effect for the benefit to do something. This definitively precludes it from being a factor in the selection done by arcane fusion.

[Troacctid]

In general, a disagreement with a part of a build should not be interpreted as agreement with other parts.

If you really think that they didn't mean 'spell slot level' when they said 'spell level', then the ideologically sound position is that you can cast a Twin Repeat Maximized Empowered Enervated Transdimensional Blistering Fiery Orb of Fire inside Arcane Fusion, since it is "only a 4th level spell". However, as Darg says, in this context it's clearly referring to the metamagic adjusted spell slot level.
I would go even further than that. Arcane fusion checks the spell as it appears in your spells known list for the sorcerer class. Unless you custom-researched a version of the spell that has metamagic baked in, that'll always be the non-metamagic version of the spell. So the actual level vs. adjusted level is irrelevant, because you cannot select any metamagic spell as one of the two, period, regardless of its level.

[Anthrowhale]

So the actual level vs. adjusted level is irrelevant, because you cannot select any metamagic spell as one of the two, period, regardless of its level.

It does make you wonder what happens when you Dragonblood Spell-Pact with a Spirit Shaman.

Nevertheless, given that the text explicitly discusses application of metamagic within AF, I wouldn't be so harsh as to disallow it myself. Merely forcing the adjusted spell slot level and casting time to fit constraints already takes some build effort, and I don't find metamagic all that unbalancing when full cost is paid.

[Gruftzwerg]

For reference:


All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.

(and since some people seem to missed the first time I posted this)

If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.





Again please, look at the PHB (for more corroborating text) or the SRD for rules about metamagic feats. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) It tells you that spell slot changes are changes to its spell level for the purposes of preparation and casting, regardless of the metamagic used. Therefore the benefit of sanctum spell must assume that the general rules are true and modify them from there. It does not. Rules are designed so that more general rules are assumed to function unless otherwise stated not to function. Sanctum spell specifically says it uses a slot of the spell's normal level regardless of the effective spell level modifier. The tense and use of "cast" in the description of sanctum spell leaves no room for interpretation as the only comprehensible understanding is the spell must take effect for the benefit to do something. This definitively precludes it from being a factor in the selection done by arcane fusion.

Arcane Fusion is an "effect dependent on spell level".

Sanctum Spell explicitly alters that "spell's level" to its full effect!

The errata failed to pick the right words to create a correct RAW reading.

Not my fault, you know.. and RAW doesn't care for that either.
RAI cares when the authors have failed to pick the right words and tries to correct that, but not RAW.

See the important difference between the two categories.



I would go even further than that. Arcane fusion checks the spell as it appears in your spells known list for the sorcerer class. Unless you custom-researched a version of the spell that has metamagic baked in, that'll always be the non-metamagic version of the spell. So the actual level vs. adjusted level is irrelevant, because you cannot select any metamagic spell as one of the two, period, regardless of its level.

I did already post the errata for Arcane Fusion that provides rules for the interactions with metamagic if you didn't notice. I added it again at the top of the post in the hope that you won't miss it again ;)

If we have rule how Arcane Fusion interacts with metamagic, you can't pretend that you can't use metamagic with AF by RAW. That would be a houserule.

[Darg]

Arcane Fusion is an "effect dependent on spell level".

You missed the fact that sanctum spell's effect does not come into effect until the spell is actually cast. This is the operational RAW that prevents your understanding from being logical.


Sanctum Spell explicitly alters that "spell's level" to its full effect!

No, it alters the "effective spell level." The spell level of the spell effect is altered, not the actual level of the spell. Unlike heighten spell, it can't be argued that it is the case (and it's still a weak argument).


The errata failed to pick the right words to create a correct RAW reading.

It didn't account for illogical readings of sanctum/heighten type metamagics. If you heighten to 4th using earth spell, it's not treated as a 5th level spell by arcane fusion.

[Crake]

words

Sanctum spell does not adjust a spell’s level until the time of casting. Until then, it is in a superposition of +/-1 spell level, and thus just uses its normal spell level for calculations, so you cant treat it as a lower spell level than normal.

Also worth noting that applying metamagic to a spell as a sorcerer increases the cast time to a full round action, meaning it no longer qualifies for arcane fusion unless you have some form of rapid metamagic

[Darg]

Also worth noting that applying metamagic to a spell as a sorcerer increases the cast time to a full round action, meaning it no longer qualifies for arcane fusion unless you have some form of rapid metamagic

That's a little much. Arcane fusion is a sorc only spell and the errata specifically states you can use metamagic with it. Logic being that it's arcane fusion casting the spell.

[Crake]

That's a little much. Arcane fusion is a sorc only spell and the errata specifically states you can use metamagic with it. Logic being that it's arcane fusion casting the spell.

I dunno, if you’re fusing a metamagiced spell, rather than metamagicking arcane fusion itself, then the “spell” youre plugging into arcane fusion inherits ALL the properties of the metamagic

[Gruftzwerg]

You missed the fact that sanctum spell's effect does not come into effect until the spell is actually cast. This is the operational RAW that prevents your understanding from being logical.
And you missed the fact that this is totally irrelevant for the specific situation that Arcane Fusions + Arcane Thesis creates.
Arcane Fusion does not care for the spell slot level that you would prepare it into, because the spells used to fill Arcane Fusion are never prepared. Arcane Fusion sole cares for the "spell level" and that is exactly what is being altered by Sanctum Spell. Sanctum Spell even explicitly calls out that all "spell level" dependent things are adjusted accordingly. Arcane Fusions "spell level" limitations is such an effect that is dependent on "spell level".



No, it alters the "effective spell level." The spell level of the spell effect is altered, not the actual level of the spell. Unlike heighten spell, it can't be argued that it is the case (and it's still a weak argument).
Yeah "effective spell level" and still not "effective spell slot level"...
Seems to prove my point.. dunno what your intention here was.

1. As said, Sanctum spell explicitly calls out that you should use the adjusted level for all spell level dependent things.
2. Arcane Fusion expects you to use the adjusted spell level

Both talk about adjusted spell level and not about adjusted spell slot level.



It didn't account for illogical readings of sanctum/heighten type metamagics. If you heighten to 4th using earth spell, it's not treated as a 5th level spell by arcane fusion.
No, it would be treated as a 4th lvl spell since that is the level Heighten Spell did raise it to.
The same goes for Sanctum Spell. If it reduces a Spell's Level, that level is the relevant one for Arcane Fusion.



Sanctum spell does not adjust a spell’s level until the time of casting. Until then, it is in a superposition of +/-1 spell level, and thus just uses its normal spell level for calculations, so you cant treat it as a lower spell level than normal.
Thanks god that Sorcerers don't have to prepare spells but cast em spontaneously. Thus Arcane Fusion will never check the inserted spell's level outside of the cast itself. The problem you are trying to picture here, never exists..

Really, are you so full of disproving me that you start to ignore basic rules in your arguments?
I kindly ask you to calm down (and get outta the "must disprove G" mode), cause I don't think you would have made this oversight if you wouldn't be upset in some way. At least imho I was not expecting that you would ignore such basic things in your argument.. I normally kinda used better arguments from you. (this is not meant to be offending, it's just that I feel that some people are getting to much heated up in the discussions lately..)


Also worth noting that applying metamagic to a spell as a sorcerer increases the cast time to a full round action, meaning it no longer qualifies for arcane fusion unless you have some form of rapid metamagic
As if that would be any problem that you couldn't overcome in 3.5...

Arcane Spellsurge
or
Accelerate Metamagic: (Sanctum Spell)

..pick either one and the problem is solved.


_________________________
Really, what have I done to earn this much backlash?? I kindy ask everybody to question themselves what their motives are here. Stop turning the discussions into a witch hunt.

[Crake]

Thanks god that Sorcerers don't have to prepare spells but cast em spontaneously. Thus Arcane Fusion will never check the inserted spell's level outside of the cast itself. The problem you are trying to picture here, never exists..

Except that you never actually cast the sanctum spell, you only get the EFFECT of the sanctum spell (including its bonus/penalty spell level) AFTER casting arcane spellsurge, so the spell level isnt adjusted until after arcane spellsurge is cast.


As if that would be any problem that you couldn't overcome in 3.5...

I never said it was impossible to overcome, merely that it was a hurdle that you needed to be mindful of, I even literally state “unless you have some form of rapid metamagic”. Solve the problem how you like, but it IS a problem that you need to invest resources into solving, you cant just do it out the box.

[Darg]

And you missed the fact that this is totally irrelevant for the specific situation that Arcane Fusions + Arcane Thesis creates.
Arcane Fusion does not care for the spell slot level that you would prepare it into, because the spells used to fill Arcane Fusion are never prepared. Arcane Fusion sole cares for the "spell level" and that is exactly what is being altered by Sanctum Spell. Sanctum Spell even explicitly calls out that all "spell level" dependent things are adjusted accordingly. Arcane Fusions "spell level" limitations is such an effect that is dependent on "spell level".

It's not irrelevant. The sentence you keep using as your evidence only ever has relevance after the spell has been cast as the feat itself states. The spell level of the spell isn't modified until after the spell is cast, not in preparation of the cast. Otherwise you could get arcane preparation and prepare the sanctum spell when outside of your sanctum in a spell slot one lower because that would be the "normal" spell slot of a spell of that level. It simply does not work that way, nor does it say it does. You're extrapolating an explanatory sentence beyond the context which it resides. The check happens when you cast the spell, therefore the explanation of the effect must be held in that context. If we did what you are doing to other areas of the game we get martial monk and early spell entry cheese. The context gets ignored and the limitations that exist aren't applied.

[Gruftzwerg]

Except that you never actually cast the sanctum spell, you only get the EFFECT of the sanctum spell (including its bonus/penalty spell level) AFTER casting arcane spellsurge, so the spell level isnt adjusted until after arcane spellsurge is cast.

Have a look. Arcane Fusion effectively "casts" those spells:

Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level.
It doesn't matter that you don't "really cast em by yourself". They are still "treated as if you had cast em by yourself".




I never said it was impossible to overcome, merely that it was a hurdle that you needed to be mindful of, I even literally state “unless you have some form of rapid metamagic”. Solve the problem how you like, but it IS a problem that you need to invest resources into solving, you cant just do it out the box.
Sorry if I got it the wrong way. But let me assure you that the TO builds of mine who use this trick either have Arcane Spellsurge or Rapid Metamagic. I'm aware of the hurdles to overcome here..
Cheese always has its price..^^




It's not irrelevant. The sentence you keep using as your evidence only ever has relevance after the spell has been cast as the feat itself states. The spell level of the spell isn't modified until after the spell is cast, not in preparation of the cast.
Dunno where you see anything in the rule text that would imply that. Could I kindly ask for a quote and a lil explanation to what you are referring to here? Where do you see it implied that it only has relevance after the cast?




Otherwise you could get arcane preparation and prepare the sanctum spell when outside of your sanctum in a spell slot one lower because that would be the "normal" spell slot of a spell of that level. It simply does not work that way, nor does it say it does.
Yeah it simple doesn't work as you describe it. ;)

When you have Arcane Preparation and prepare a Sanctum Spell outside of your sanctum, it still uses its normal spell slot!
Sanctum Spell never changes your spell slot.

A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.
It uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.
Pls stop mixing "Spell Level" with "Spell Slot Level".
Sanctum Spell is always prepared in a slot at the spell's normal level (except for other metamagic you use). It doesn't matter if you get an increase or decrease for the spell level.
The horror scenario you are trying to picture here ain't possible. Rest assured.

[Darg]

Have a look. Arcane Fusion effectively "casts" those spells:

It doesn't matter that you don't "really cast em by yourself". They are still "treated as if you had cast em by yourself".

You just quoted the relevant text, just emphasized the wrong part:


Both spells take effect in the order you choose

They take effect when the spell effect is manifest. The spell is casting them sure, but you are missing the point:


Dunno where you see anything in the rule text that would imply that. Could I kindly ask for a quote and a lil explanation to what you are referring to here? Where do you see it implied that it only has relevance after the cast?


A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal.

Sanctum Spell's effect only applies when the spell comes into effect. Until the effect is manifest it does not have a +/-1 to effective spell level. When you select the spell for use with arcane fusion, it is still a spell of it's normal level.


Pls stop mixing "Spell Level" with "Spell Slot Level".

I'm not. They are one and the same when it comes to metamagic. Please reread the text in the PHB and SRD


During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).


They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot.


Changes to its level are cumulative. A silent, stilled version of charm person, for example, would be prepared and cast as a 3rd-level spell (a 1st-level spell, increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats).


Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).

The PHB uses the terms as though synonymous. You may differentiate them, but the rules clearly do not.

[Troacctid]

Nevertheless, given that the text explicitly discusses application of metamagic within AF, I wouldn't be so harsh as to disallow it myself.
That's a little much. Arcane fusion is a sorc only spell and the errata specifically states you can use metamagic with it.
Okay, you got me there, I didn't notice the errata. Carry on, then.

[InvisibleBison]

Arcane Fusion is very clear about how it works: First you select a 4th level spell and a 1st level spell, and then they take effect as if cast. Sanctum spell arcane fusion is only treated as a 4th level spell when it is being cast outside your sanctum. Since you are not casting it when you attempt to select it as a 4th level spell, it is not treated as a 4th level spell and thus is not eligible to be selected.

[Gruftzwerg]

You just quoted the relevant text, just emphasized the wrong part:



They take effect when the spell effect is manifest. The spell is casting them sure, but you are missing the point:





Sanctum Spell's effect only applies when the spell comes into effect. Until the effect is manifest it does not have a +/-1 to effective spell level. When you select the spell for use with arcane fusion, it is still a spell of it's normal level.
I get what you mean, but you are missing "Specific Trumps General" here.
Arcane Fusion explicitly asks for that and you can't ignore it:

"If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion."

The rules don't ask you when the spell level is adjusted.
They simply ask you to use the adjusted spell level.

Imho it couldn't be more obvious precise here. Use the adjusted spell level.

If your assumption would be true, I wouldn't need rapid metamagic, because the effective casting time wouldn't change either for the same reason. Sorry, that is a assumption directly in conflict with the errata.



I'm not. They are one and the same when it comes to metamagic. Please reread the text in the PHB and SRD

The PHB uses the terms as though synonymous. You may differentiate them, but the rules clearly do not.
I kinda agree that you sometimes have to read it in context if you want to get the intentions of the authors right and have a playable rule set.

But that is the entire problem I am ranting here about^^

Just because the authors have once again failed to express the intentions precise enough doesn't change what is RAW. RAW doesn't care for intentions. If the failed and you need to apply extended context ("the authors are just humans too" thus they make mistakes too), we have stopped to talking about RAW and started to talk about RAI.

RAI, I totally agree with you. No problem. But RAW does simply not care for such stuff.
I mean, how else do you think people ended with things like "healing by drowning"?
Not because they tried to get the intentions of the authors and by applying extended context.
We got "healing by drowning" by totally ignoring the "intentions" and simply applying what RAW says.
And RAW says some times very stupid things...


Arcane Fusion is very clear about how it works: First you select a 4th level spell and a 1st level spell, and then they take effect as if cast. Sanctum spell arcane fusion is only treated as a 4th level spell when it is being cast outside your sanctum. Since you are not casting it when you attempt to select it as a 4th level spell, it is not treated as a 4th level spell and thus is not eligible to be selected.

Pls reread Arcane Fusion more carefully:
"as if you had cast them"
&
"Effectively, you cast two other spells"

It doesn't matter that you don't cast it yourself, if they still count as if you had cast em yourself.

And Arcane Fusion explicitly asks for "adjusted spell level".

Your assumption ain't true by RAW here, sorry.

[InvisibleBison]

Pls reread Arcane Fusion more carefully:
"as if you had cast them"
&
"Effectively, you cast two other spells"

It doesn't matter that you don't cast it yourself, if they still count as if you had cast em yourself.

And Arcane Fusion explicitly asks for "adjusted spell level".

Your assumption ain't true by RAW here, sorry.

I'm not talking about whether or not it counts as if you cast the spells yourself, or whether or not arcane fusion is using "adjusted spell level". I can freely concede those points and my argument still holds. Because arcane fusion checks the spell level before casting the spell, and sanctum spell arcane fusion is only a 4th level spell when it's being cast, at the time that arcane fusion checks whether a spell is 4th level or not sanctum spell arcane fusion is a 5th level spell. The issue is purely one of timing.

[Darg]

If your assumption would be true, I wouldn't need rapid metamagic, because the effective casting time wouldn't change either for the same reason. Sorry, that is a assumption directly in conflict with the errata.

There are two problems here about your assumption. You need rapid metamagic because it is in effect when you select the spell as it directly modifies the cast time. Sanctum spell's benefit is not in effect at the time you select the spell because the effect is yet to be cast.


Just because the authors have once again failed to express the intentions precise enough doesn't change what is RAW. RAW doesn't care for intentions. If the failed and you need to apply extended context ("the authors are just humans too" thus they make mistakes too), we have stopped to talking about RAW and started to talk about RAI.

You're taking the explanatory text and applying it where it simply doesn't make logical sense. The sentence you use to justify your claim does not specify when the effect takes place. The prior sentence is the one that does that and makes clear that the benefit doesn't come into effect until the effect is manifest. That is the RAW. You aren't supporting your claim with anything actually substantive.


When you have Arcane Preparation and prepare a Sanctum Spell outside of your sanctum, it still uses its normal spell slot!
Sanctum Spell never changes your spell slot.

To bring a point from your previous post here, spell slots are derived from spell level. It's not a separate quality. You say that it would still use a normal spell slot. If what you claim is true, your claim cannot be selective in application as it would apply to all effects, even itself. Therefore your claim logically ends at the point of sanctum spell is a spell of one level lower and thus has a normal spell slot that of one level lower.

We all know that is a leap of logic. Even you think so. However, where is the leap? The leap is when the benefit of the feat is applied. If the benefit is applied prior to the effect made manifest the scenario above is RAW. If the benefit is applied when the effect is manifest the scenario above is not RAW. These understandings are mutually exclusive.