What are the focuses of the Southern Pantheon's gods?

[Gopherofdoomies]

Of the three (formerly four) pantheons in this world, the gods of the Southern Pantheon are actually the ones we know the least about, given how they are not adapted from well-defined gods but are instead animal spirits collated from a variety of myths.

So what do we actually know, or what can be guessed, about the personalities of the individual gods themselves?

What we know:

-- The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a whole, but it can be presumed that all Azurites prefer one of the gods, perhaps based on what sign they are born under (based on the Azurite soldier's comment in #493).

-- They are likely majority Good-aligned. Given how most Azurites we've seen, and Azure City as a whole, are nominally Good, combined with the fact that they ultimately voted No at the Godsmoot, this implies that they tend towards Law and Good.

-- Rat can probably be pinned down as being Evil, given his initial defense of the Dark One after the Dark One's creation.

-- Tiger may be the god of Storms or something related to that, given his anger at Thor's use of the Control Weather spell.

What do you guys think, are there further observations of the Gods' actions, perhaps extra pages from the print copies, or simply knowledge of the Chinese Zodiac that may help us pin down the alignment of the Azurite Gods and their domains of power?

[Kish]

Actually, Rich indicated (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-6-68125768) that the Twelve Gods are all True Neutral. That Redcloak assumed all the deities who spoke up for the Dark One were evil doesn't mean it's true; rather, it says something about Redcloak's mentality.

[Jasdoif]

What we know:

-- The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a whole, but it can be presumed that all Azurites prefer one of the gods, perhaps based on what sign they are born under (based on the Azurite soldier's comment in #493).

-- They are likely majority Good-aligned. Given how most Azurites we've seen, and Azure City as a whole, are nominally Good, combined with the fact that they ultimately voted No at the Godsmoot, this implies that they tend towards Law and Good.

-- Rat can probably be pinned down as being Evil, given his initial defense of the Dark One after the Dark One's creation.I see Kish already brought up the answer post (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-6-68125768) while I was formatting this; but I already formatted this so I'm posting it anyway :smalltongue:

What is the alignment of each of the twelve gods? I interpreted Rat to be evil, how about others? Since, according to your previous answer, most Azurites worship the pantheon as one, how do good aligned worshipers feel about revering evil gods this way and vice versa? Does this imply that many of the followers of the religion are neutral aligned? How about the paladins in Azure city, how can they worship evil gods by proxy of worshiping the whole pantheon and still be strictly good?

Functionally speaking, the Twelve Gods are all True Neutral—partly because they’re animals, but partly because the specific metaphysics of the gods in this setting are that they are influenced by what their worshippers think about them. Since the Twelve Gods are all worshipped as a group, their alignment is pulled in all directions at once by different believers projecting their own morals onto them, and they end up in the middle somewhere. Even when they are singled out for individual devotion, it’s usually by people who were born under their astrological sign, which would naturally include the entire gamut of alignments. But the gods still govern each individual priest by that priest’s own alignment, so that a Good cleric who breaks her moral code would find herself cut off from her spellcasting powers even while an Evil cleric of the same pantheon who does the same action would not.

It’s important to note that this process is not well understood by the mortals of the world, so what you get is a lot of conflicting religious interpretations where the gods seem to be supporting opposed ideas at once. This extends right down to Redcloak not understanding that Rat is no more Evil than any of the others but assuming he must be, because why else would he give the Dark One a chance?
So as you can imagine, trying to consider them individually is going to be more challenging than might be expected.

[Peelee]

-- They are likely majority Good-aligned. Given how most Azurites we've seen, and Azure City as a whole, are nominally Good, combined with the fact that they ultimately voted No at the Godsmoot, this implies that they tend towards Law and Good.


Even if Kish and Jasdoif hadn't gotten there first, and regardless of what they said, this part wouldn't track anyway. Some Good gods voted yes and some Evil gods voted no in the Northern pantheon - the vote did not fall on a Good/Evil divide at all.

[Tzardok]

are instead animal spirits collated from a variety of myths.


Also, as you mentioned later, they are based on the Chinese Zodiac instead of hailing from different myths.

I did make a thread in this direction before, and I think everything that is known has already been said here. It's here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?654832-Stats-for-the-Stats-God!-The-Deities-of-OOTS), if you want to have a look.

[ti'esar]

One of the only times I think any of the Southern Gods beyond Rat has been focused on specifically is in Sangwaan's focus story from the Kickstarter/GDGU, which establishes that Rooster, specifically, is the source of her divinatory powers. And given that her death was sort of a fulfillment of her wishes but in a very prophecy-twisting way, it also seems safe to say he's a bit of a jerk.

[Peelee]

One of the only times I think any of the Southern Gods beyond Rat has been focused on specifically is in Sangwaan's focus story from the Kickstarter/GDGU, which establishes that Rooster, specifically, is the source of her divinatory powers. And given that her death was sort of a fulfillment of her wishes but in a very prophecy-twisting way, it also seems safe to say he's a bit of a jerk.

A.) Want really twisting it at all, and she certainly appreciated it.
2.) O-Chul prays to Horse when his horse is still alive after the opening battle.

[137beth]

A follow up question to the one the Banana and Kish posted revealed that most Azurites are True Neutral. (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-7-79846329)

[MReav]

Azure City is not the only nation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)in the South, so they probably have a bunch of people influencing the gods as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

Even if Kish and Jasdoif hadn't gotten there first, and regardless of what they said, this part wouldn't track anyway. Some Good gods voted yes and some Evil gods voted no in the Northern pantheon - the vote did not fall on a Good/Evil divide at all. I can't + this point enough, as far too many folks seemed to have missed this.

Azure City is not the only nation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)in the South, so they probably have a bunch of people influencing the gods as well. I think it takes getting the book to see the map and grasp the nuances of the southern continent. Those who only read the on line strip will not have that resource.

[Precure]

Since the Twelve Gods are all worshipped as a group, their alignment is pulled in all directions at once by different believers projecting their own morals onto them, and they end up in the middle somewhere.

Miko pray/believe enough, hypothetically, she might be their chosen champion.

[RatElemental]

If a single mortal is believing something hard enough to sway their entire pantheon they're already practically verging on godhood themselves anyway I'd imagine. That said, while the sapphire guard was a secret organization the paladins existing was not, and Miko was a pretty high profile one. The citizenry of Azure City might have believed she was an important figure to their gods, so that might have gone somewhere eventually, but even then there are other cities that believe in the twelve gods.

[Quizatzhaderac]

A while ago I made a post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629381-Southern-Pantheon-excessive-detail), a chart (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sf3hHvsZo3IddnsT1EfQGjkc9Sl1_Qag/view), and a table (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uOXX4z58fJvxDLwzfvqzQNEV5K-7HNeo/view) on the matter, that included each god's alignment, and associated plane. As well as eleven invented demigods to fill gaps.

Sadly, as mentioned, Rich decided they were all true neutral. In my headcannon, the problem of "what if you're born under a god that doesn't match your alignment" was resolved by having multiple time cycles (Chinese astrology has 4: a 12 year cycle, a cycle on months within a year, a cycle of days in a month, and cycle of hours in a day), so everybody has multiple gods associated with them.

[Tubercular Ox]

In my headcannon, the problem of "what if you're born under a god that doesn't match your alignment" was resolved by having multiple time cycles (Chinese astrology has 4: a 12 year cycle, a cycle on months within a year, a cycle of days in a month, and cycle of hours in a day), so everybody has multiple gods associated with them.

I salute this. Four dials is plenty to compel players to be born under the right sign without affecting their character's age significantly, and it even gives characters an opportunity to be torn between two patrons. Or four.

[woweedd]

A while ago I made a post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629381-Southern-Pantheon-excessive-detail), a chart (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sf3hHvsZo3IddnsT1EfQGjkc9Sl1_Qag/view), and a table (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uOXX4z58fJvxDLwzfvqzQNEV5K-7HNeo/view) on the matter, that included each god's alignment, and associated plane. As well as eleven invented demigods to fill gaps.

Sadly, as mentioned, Rich decided they were all true neutral. In my headcannon, the problem of "what if you're born under a god that doesn't match your alignment" was resolved by having multiple time cycles (Chinese astrology has 4: a 12 year cycle, a cycle on months within a year, a cycle of days in a month, and cycle of hours in a day), so everybody has multiple gods associated with them.
I don't see why you need Demigods to fill the gaps? Also, like...No one is born with an alignment anyway,?

[tomandtish]

Even if Kish and Jasdoif hadn't gotten there first, and regardless of what they said, this part wouldn't track anyway. Some Good gods voted yes and some Evil gods voted no in the Northern pantheon - the vote did not fall on a Good/Evil divide at all.


I can't + this point enough, as far too many folks seemed to have missed this.

Yeah, Peelee sums it up nicely. The vote has nothing to do with good/evil. It's not even a vote on whether or not to destroy the world.

Given that most gods seem dubious about our heroes' chances, it is a debate on WHEN to destroy the world. Now, or last minute in case by some miracle our heroes succeed.

[Tubercular Ox]

I don't see why you need Demigods to fill the gaps? Also, like...No one is born with an alignment anyway,?

The demigods are the inner planes (and the inner planes are adjusted to the five elements), and the problem with combining astrological signs and worshippable gods is the two rules interfere with each other: You should worship the god of your sign, and you should worship the god of your alignment. Only works out for a few people. Rich fixed it by ditching the second rule and saying your god always presents itself as your alignment, and Quizatzhaderac fixed it by giving people choices.

[Peelee]

The demigods are the inner planes
Are they?

Rich fixed it by ditching the second rule and saying your god always presents itself as your alignment
Did he?

[Tubercular Ox]

Are they?

Did he?

You had an opportunity to contribute to the conversation, but instead you do this.

[Peelee]

You had an opportunity to contribute to the conversation, but instead you do this.

And you had an opportunity to respond to questions by either verifying the veracity of them or or acknowledging that theybare headcanons (or that you thought they were the case and you made a mistake, or that a similar bit slightly different thing is the case and here is the verification, or any number of other things addressing if they are not rhe case, really). And yet.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I don't see why you need Demigods to fill the gaps? Also, like...No one is born with an alignment anyway,?The great wheel has 17 spots, the Chinese zodiac has 12, hence 5 gaps.

When Southerners grow up they chose an alignment, but they're stuck with how they were born. So a good person can still have been born under an evil sign, which means a special relationship with an evil god, and having to answer "what's your sign?" with "one of the evil ones".

[Kish]

{Scrubbed}

Edited to add: Unless each zodiac sign is associated with at least four gods, I do not think any system that hinges on "you're expected to be guided by one of these polar-alignment gods" could work. Even with seventeen gods, it's way too easy for Kubota to be handed, "Do you associate yourself with Chaotic Evil or with Lawful Good? You cannot not contradict one facet of your alignment."

[Tubercular Ox]

And you had an opportunity to respond to questions by either verifying the veracity of them or or acknowledging that theybare headcanons (or that you thought they were the case and you made a mistake, or that a similar bit slightly different thing is the case and here is the verification, or any number of other things addressing if they are not rhe case, really). And yet.

You are admitting that to spont a complete answer to your question I would have to write a tome addressing at least five and possibly any number of other things in order to be sure of covering what you're actually concerned about, all without your input. It's one thing to argue with me, it's another thing to force me to argue with myself while you watch.

Also, I think you’re sheltered. In other, less well patrolled forums, space fillers like that one are an obvious ploy to get someone to spit out their opinions of your opinions, so that you can decide what your opinion is going to be after they’ve already committed to something else.

Since no one here would do that, I don't know if you can imagine what an immigrant like me worries about when a space filling post like that shows up. And since we're covering things you have no experience with, I would interpret following up with a list of things you could've meant instead of clarifying what you actually meant as a continuation of the same gambit, were this any other forum.

But since this isn't any other forum, why did you pass up the chance to tell me what you want in favor of telling me all the things you could want?

[Peelee]

You are admitting that to spont a complete answer to your question I would have to write a tome addressing at least five and possibly any number of other things in order to be sure of covering what you're actually concerned about, all without your input. It's one thing to argue with me, it's another thing to force me to argue with myself while you watch.

I'm admitting no such thing. You made two claims i found questionable. I asked if there was any backing to those claims.

That's it, dude. That's all there was to it. I phrased it differently than normal because i like to not always say the same things over and over (unless i think it's clever), but even then I've been using that phrasing as an alternate "can you back this up" for years. Decades, actually, at this point. It's not an attack on you or demanding that you write a thesis or argue against yourself as part of a bread and circuses plot. Im just asking for a source.

[Ruck]

You had an opportunity to contribute to the conversation, but instead you do this.

You made statements that are not supported, and when asked to support them with evidence, you criticize the person asking instead of providing the evidence or saying you don't have any and this is just your interpretation.

Why do you do that?

[Quizatzhaderac]

Even with seventeen gods, it's way too easy for Kubota to be handed, "Do you associate yourself with Chaotic Evil or with Lawful Good? You cannot not contradict one facet of your alignment."That's rather the point. Everyone is handed a contradiction and choses how to resolve it. Nobody gets to know what alignment they "should be" from their star sign.

Let's say Kuboto is pig-dragon-snake-tiger.

He takes pig's sense or order, dragon's independent thought, snake's duplicitousness, and tiger's aggressiveness.

Publicly, he claims he takes pig's sense or order, dragon's independent thought, snake's humility, and tiger's protectiveness.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm admitting no such thing. You made two claims i found questionable. I asked if there was any backing to those claims.

That's it, dude. That's all there was to it. I phrased it differently than normal because i like to not always say the same things over and over (unless i think it's clever), but even then I've been using that phrasing as an alternate "can you back this up" for years. Decades, actually, at this point. It's not an attack on you or demanding that you write a thesis or argue against yourself as part of a bread and circuses plot. Im just asking for a source.

Why did it take two tries to get you to explain yourself? You spent your first attempt telling me you could've meant any number of things and implied I should guess. Or pick them all. I don't care if you've spent decades doing it, it's bad, and even worse because it can be done without realizing it is bad.

Source is here. I was never talking about Rich's world, and I only need my statement about Rich's world to be true to the extent it contrasts with Quizatzhaderac's house rules.

A tiny part of me is still uncertain that that is going to be acceptable, because I've been forced to invent for you the position that you think I am talking about Rich's world. So if I'm wrong, remember that you left me to argue by myself while you watched, when you could've contributed to the conversation instead.

[Peelee]

That's rather the point. Everyone is handed a contradiction and choses how to resolve it. Nobody gets to know what alignment they "should be" from their star sign.

Given that none of the Twelve are tied to any specific alignment already, why would anyone "know what alignment they 'should be'" to start with?


Why did it take two tries to get you to explain yourself?

Because it took that many to convey the message to you. I explained myself in every post, including the initial one. I just kept breaking it down further and further until you accepted it.


Source is here.
Great! That's all i was asking for! At least, for that part.

I was never talking about Rich's world

Then this part confuses me quite a bit:


Rich fixed it by ditching the second rule and saying your god always presents itself as your alignment

[Tubercular Ox]

Because it took that many to convey the message to you. I explained myself in every post, including the initial one. I just kept breaking it down further and further until you accepted it.

I don't understand how listing out five different things you could've meant and making me guess qualifies as explaining yourself. I bring this up because I am AOK with you thinking I'm retarded if it means you'll put more effort into explaining things to me specifically.


Then this part confuses me quite a bit:
Rich fixed it by ditching the second rule and saying your god always presents itself as your alignment


I only need my statement about Rich's world to be true to the extent it contrasts with Quizatzhaderac's house rules.

Which part don't you understand? And, you know what, if you can manage to imagine me asking that in a conciliatory way, that'd be great. I am happy that we're having a real discussion, but my understanding-Peelee energy is unfortunately low, through no fault of your own. Right now I'm thinking Rich has a very large and specific machine that explains how the twelve gods work, but I only need the part of it that lets people of any alignment worship their birth sign, but I'm not sure that's the right direction to go to answer your question.

[Peelee]

I don't understand how listing out five different things you could've meant and making me guess qualifies as explaining yourself. I bring this up because I am AOK with you thinking I'm retarded if it means you'll put more effort into explaining things to me specifically.





Which part don't you understand? And, you know what, if you can manage to imagine me asking that in a conciliatory way, that'd be great. I am happy that we're having a real discussion, but my understanding-Peelee energy is unfortunately low, through no fault of your own. Right now I'm thinking Rich has a very large and specific machine that explains how the twelve gods work, but I only need the part of it that lets people of any alignment worship their birth sign, but I'm not sure that's the right direction to go to answer your question.

I do not know why you are radically overcomplicating this. Look dude, here's an example of how you could have answered.

Me: Are they?
You: Yes, i was basing that statement on the links above.
Me: Did he?
You: Yes, here is a link or quote from the author stating that.

You want another example? Here.

Me: Are they?
You: Yes, i was basing that on the links above, not in-comic.
Me: Did he?
You: No, i appear to have been mistaken.

Or, you know, any number of other ways to answer the questions. They were very simple questions. You didn't answer, and i gave examples hmof how they could be answered. Those were examples. Those were not demands that you absolutely must answer in those specific ways. I even gave an open-ended "or any other way" at the end.

[Tubercular Ox]

If you were asking me to fact check my posts, did you suspect something was wrong? You could’ve told me what you suspected, and saved me a lot of work.

Did you not suspect something was wrong? Then you were really making me do your homework for you, because everything could’ve been right and I would have to do the fact check anyways to be sure.

What really hurts more than being told to do work that would be unnecessary if you just shared your thoughts is that I’ve already told you several times you are better at remembering the rules than I am, and demonstrated countless times that I’m okay with a paraphrase that catches the gist of something even if it doesn’t nail the rules down. So you’re asking me to do something I’m bad at and don’t care about just so you can avoid doing something you’re good at and care about.

Unless that’s not true? I don’t know enough to know if I care about what you’re saying or not, because you haven’t told me. Maybe you meant that I was misunderstanding what it meant when Quizatzhaderac’s table said the Vermilion Bird represented the Plane of Fire. That would have been bad, and we would have had to consult Quizatzhaderac.

But if all you wanted to tell me was, “Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say that people of any alignment can worship their birth sign because of such and such, not this or that,” then that would be fantastic, because I could defer to your expertise on this matter. Then it would be our theory (about Quizatzhaderac’s theory), because you contributed to it. Instead it is my theory that you had to police.

[Peelee]

If you were asking me to fact check my posts, did you suspect something was wrong? You could’ve told me what you suspected, and saved me a lot of work.

I did. In the initial post. Directly.

The only work was what you created for yourself.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm not feeling any traction on this issue. I've told you four different ways why I feel that this behavior is wrong, and all you've done is repeat over and over that you think it's harmless.

I've already said that I understand it's behavior that can be done unwittingly, and therefore I'm not mad at you specifically. Given that I'm never going to let this behavior go as harmless, is there anything I can affirm to open up this conversation? That is, am I hurting you? And can I stop in a way that doesn't require me to accept this behavior as harmless?

[Quizatzhaderac]

Given that none of the Twelve are tied to any specific alignment already, why would anyone "know what alignment they 'should be'" to start with?Because I made my thing before Rich made his forum comment and gave the 12 gods all very specific alignments. For example Rat is chaotic-chaotic-evil and resides in Pandemonium, because he's evil and yang.

[Peelee]

Because I made my thing before Rich made his forum comment and gave the 12 gods all very specific alignments. For example Rat is chaotic-chaotic-evil and resides in Pandemonium, because he's evil and yang.

Gotcha, that makes sense then.

[woweedd]

If you were asking me to fact check my posts, did you suspect something was wrong? You could’ve told me what you suspected, and saved me a lot of work.

Did you not suspect something was wrong? Then you were really making me do your homework for you, because everything could’ve been right and I would have to do the fact check anyways to be sure.

What really hurts more than being told to do work that would be unnecessary if you just shared your thoughts is that I’ve already told you several times you are better at remembering the rules than I am, and demonstrated countless times that I’m okay with a paraphrase that catches the gist of something even if it doesn’t nail the rules down. So you’re asking me to do something I’m bad at and don’t care about just so you can avoid doing something you’re good at and care about.

Unless that’s not true? I don’t know enough to know if I care about what you’re saying or not, because you haven’t told me. Maybe you meant that I was misunderstanding what it meant when Quizatzhaderac’s table said the Vermilion Bird represented the Plane of Fire. That would have been bad, and we would have had to consult Quizatzhaderac.

But if all you wanted to tell me was, “Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say that people of any alignment can worship their birth sign because of such and such, not this or that,” then that would be fantastic, because I could defer to your expertise on this matter. Then it would be our theory (about Quizatzhaderac’s theory), because you contributed to it. Instead it is my theory that you had to police.
Pelee was trying to ask you for actual proof of your theory, I don't see how that's unreasonable. Like, normally, Ox, when people proposes a theory abut the setting, it's because they have some evidence to back it up. Why are you asking other people to defend your ideas for you?

[Ruck]

I'm not feeling any traction on this issue. I've told you four different ways why I feel that this behavior is wrong, and all you've done is repeat over and over that you think it's harmless.

I've already said that I understand it's behavior that can be done unwittingly, and therefore I'm not mad at you specifically. Given that I'm never going to let this behavior go as harmless, is there anything I can affirm to open up this conversation? That is, am I hurting you? And can I stop in a way that doesn't require me to accept this behavior as harmless?

I'm honestly baffled by this. Ox, I do not understand why you get so hurt by people asking you to support or defend your theories or claims, even if they are being brief and concise about it. I really do not understand why, on this forum of all places*, you think that is hurtful behavior.

(* - I forget the exact number, but I think Rich said that the forum readership is something like 2% of the overall readership of the comic. The fact that we're on a forum for the comic makes it likely that, broadly speaking, we are the 2% most interested in dissecting, analyzing, and understanding the comic, or at least that this 2% is substantially comprised of that population. This is the one place, more than any other, you should expect that if you post theories or make claims about the comic, you will be asked to defend, support, and back up those claims with evidence or further explanation.)

And I really don't understand why, when you post a theory, you think the work should fall to other people to support or correct it. It's your theory; you do the work. If it's unsupported and just something you consider headcanon, you can just say that. Both of these are more straightforward and actually address the question and stay on topic, and they take a lot less time than writing about how "hurtful" it is that you're being "policed" by being asked to support things you've said.

My honest advice is: You would be a lot happier posting if you took other people's words at face value, instead of trying to interpret personal attacks or other hidden meanings into everything.* Being asked to support your claims is not a personal attack.

(* - And honestly, that can be interpreted as a little insulting, because the continued insistence on doing that implies that you think the people you reply to do not say what they mean.)


Peelee was trying to ask you for actual proof of your theory, I don't see how that's unreasonable. Like, normally, Ox, when people proposes a theory abut the setting, it's because they have some evidence to back it up. Why are you asking other people to defend your ideas for you?

Anyway, agreed with this.

[Precure]

Dragon is probably a "sky father" like figure, associated with rain and weather, and maybe even rivers as well.

[MReav]

Something I find interesting is that the whole "a god/gods are all TN because they are worshipped by everyone" has precedence in mainline DND with the dragon god Io.