How to make a Cha-based ranger or rogue?

[Murg]

So I had an idea for a smooth talking Robin Hood type character, and was thinking of statting him out as a cha-based ranger or rogue for an upcoming campaign.

Problem: in 3.5, cha is usually the dump stat for rangers or rogues. Is there a way to make such a character not be totally bad? Yes, I have already looked at the "X bonus to Y stat" thread, but it's slim pickings for those two classes.

I am not looking to have a super powerful tier 1 or 2 level character, nor am I intending to abuse the rules (ahem, Diplomancer). I just want to be able to hold my own as a ranger or rogue.

Pretty much any 3.5 splatbook is allowed except Dragon magazine and campaign-world-specific stuff.

My character would be human so unfortunately the Charming the Arrow feat is not available.

I'd be starting at first level and maybe going up to around 10th.

Any advice would be appreciated!

[Biggus]

Rogue is probably the better bet for for Cha-based, although 2 or 6 levels of Ranger to get (Improved) Two-Weapon Fighting could work.

Rogues get all the Cha-based skills, which includes UMD, which adds a lot of versatility to a character and opens up some good options not otherwise available (putting wands of swift/immediate-action spells in wand chambers can work very well for the Rogue if you're using the RC rule that wands can be activated using the same type of action it uses to cast the spell).

Imperious Command (DotU) causes a foe successfully demoralised with Intimidate to cower in fear the next round, meaning you can make lots of sneak attacks on them. If you're interested in going the fear route, have a look at this: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8759.0

There are some decent weapon abilities which run off Cha, like Stunning Surge (MIC) or Sudden Stunning (DMG2) if your DM allows it (it's widely considered ridiculously overpowered for its price).

Obviously, to really get the best out of this type of characters, you'd want to multiclass Rogue with a Cha-based caster then go into something like Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster, but I get the impression that's not what you want here.

I'm sure there are other options but that's what occurs to me right now.

[JNAProductions]

How open is your DM to just changing Rangers from Wisdom casters to Charisma casters? Seems the simplest option to me, and unlikely to break anything.

[Biggus]

Another option: Rogue then Invisible Blade (CW) allows you to feint as a free action once per round, and the Group Fake-out skill trick (CSco) allows you to feint against multiple opponents at once, so you can use feint to sneak attack multiple opponents once each.

A dip into Marshal can get you the ability to add your Cha to skills twice via Motivate Charisma.

[Inevitability]

Three words: Charming The Arrow (https://web.archive.org/web/20030823124022/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a), a fey-only feat that lets you shoot bows and crossbows with your charisma.

To qualify, play a killoren, a duskling, or a half-fey (the latter if you're starting at high level or your campaign has LA buyoff). I like killoren the most here, because they have access to an innate charisma-based smite.

Making ranged rogues work is a bit more complicated than this, but most handbooks mention at least a few ways to get reliable sneak attack. Rangers have pretty solid archery builds right out of the gate.

You can also dip a level in marshall to add your charisma modifier to a bunch of dexterity-based skill checks so you don't fall behind on stealth skills. If your DM allows aging rules, middle-aged is basically free points for mental-heavy characters, and even old age might be worth it.

[JNAProductions]

Three words: Charming The Arrow (https://web.archive.org/web/20030823124022/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a), a fey-only feat that lets you shoot bows and crossbows with your charisma.

To qualify, play a killoren, a duskling, or a half-fey (the latter if you're starting at high level or your campaign has LA buyoff). I like killoren the most here, because they have access to an innate charisma-based smite.

Making ranged rogues work is a bit more complicated than this, but most handbooks mention at least a few ways to get reliable sneak attack. Rangers have pretty solid archery builds right out of the gate.

You can also dip a level in marshall to add your charisma modifier to a bunch of dexterity-based skill checks so you don't fall behind on stealth skills. If your DM allows aging rules, middle-aged is basically free points for mental-heavy characters, and even old age might be worth it.
My character would be human so unfortunately the Charming the Arrow feat is not available.

They know. But it doesn't work for this PC.

[Inevitability]

They know. But it doesn't work for this PC.

Hm, there's ways to acquire the half-fey template with a template class, would that be an option? I think it gives the fey type after a single level.

[Chronos]

Quoth Inevitability:

To qualify, play a killoren, a duskling, or a half-fey (the latter if you're starting at high level or your campaign has LA buyoff). I like killoren the most here, because they have access to an innate charisma-based smite.
My favorite fey race is the Brownie. It has a level adjustment, but it also gets what's perhaps the best version of Hide in Plain Sight published, which is useful for any rogue-type.

[Murg]

Thank you all for the advice!

As for Sudden Stunning...wow, just wow. It's from DMG2, so it's technically allowed, but the DM did not like it at all.

Imperious Command, on the other hand, will be fine. And my DM might allow me to also get the Dreadful Wrath feat (mentioned in the link, thank you Biggus) since we are playing in Forgotten Realms.

So...Rogue+Imperious Command+Dreadful Wrath = profit?

My DM will not allow rangers to be cha-based casters. Instead he said he'd allow a "better" version of the spell-less ranger variant, but I thought it was still terrible so that was that.

Also, the Invisible Blade looks pretty interesting. I must admit I've never paid much attention to feinting mechanics, but in this case it could be really useful. The entry price into the PRC is a bit steep though...

Rogue+Invisible Blade = profit?

A one level dip into Marshall could also be a good idea. Thank you all, you've given me a lot to think about!

[Biggus]

As for Sudden Stunning...wow, just wow. It's from DMG2, so it's technically allowed, but the DM did not like it at all.

Yeah, I wouldn't allow it to be fair, not for that price anyway.



Also, the Invisible Blade looks pretty interesting. I must admit I've never paid much attention to feinting mechanics, but in this case it could be really useful. The entry price into the PRC is a bit steep though...

The entry requirements also don't make sense, and are apparently a mistake according to the class's creator:



The 5-level invisible blade that first appeared in Dragon (and then recently in The Complete Warrior) was edited down from my original 10-level progression. The abilities and text are the same, but there were some additional dagger throwing abilities built into the prestige class (to round it out).

The editors at Dragon had asked me to change the invisible blade prerequisites to reflect their ranged-based abilities, but when they later changed the invisible blade into a 5-level prestige class (and removed the dagger throwing abilities), they likely forgot to change the prerequisites as well.

To use the printed version of the invisible blade as is, simply change the prerequisites feats to:

Weapon Focus (dagger, kukri, or punching dagger) and Weapon Finesse.

https://www.enworld.org/threads/invisible-blade-requirements.78945/

Hopefully your DM will allow the modified version (I would).

Feinting in general is pretty terrible except at low levels, Invisible Blade + Group Fake-Out is one of the very few ways to make it worthwhile.

[Anthrowhale]

Hm, there's ways to acquire the half-fey template with a template class, would that be an option? I think it gives the fey type after a single level.

Unseelie Fey converts type to fey and evidence suggests LA+0.

[Darg]

As for Sudden Stunning...wow, just wow. It's from DMG2, so it's technically allowed, but the DM did not like it at all.

It got reprinted in the MIC as Stunning Surge. +1 enhancement, fort save, and stuns for 1 round. Otherwise the same.

Scarlet Corsair from Stormwrack is another feint based PRC. Less steep requirements for not as consistent swift feinting, but it has really fun flavor and really leans into the feinting and intimidation.

[lylsyly]

So I had an idea for a smooth talking Robin Hood type character, and was thinking of statting him out as a cha-based ranger or rogue for an upcoming campaign.

Problem: in 3.5, cha is usually the dump stat for rangers or rogues. Is there a way to make such a character not be totally bad? Yes, I have already looked at the "X bonus to Y stat" thread, but it's slim pickings for those two classes.

I am not looking to have a super powerful tier 1 or 2 level character, nor am I intending to abuse the rules (ahem, Diplomancer). I just want to be able to hold my own as a ranger or rogue.

Pretty much any 3.5 splatbook is allowed except Dragon magazine and campaign-world-specific stuff.

My character would be human so unfortunately the Charming the Arrow feat is not available.

I'd be starting at first level and maybe going up to around 10th.

Any advice would be appreciated!

So you want to be a Charismatic Rogue or Ranger? I'm going to assume it a low to maybe mid OP table according to your post. 3.5 diplomacy is broken enough that you actually don't need to optimize it. Ranger does not give you the skills you want. Rogue does! For a 1-10 game I would forget Intimidate and focus on diplomacy.

Martial Rogue 1 / Fighter 1/ Martial Rogue +8

Forget about Sneak Attack since you want to be a charimatic character. Use you skill points for the face skills and UMD and all the feats you are going to get for melee and/or ranged combat.

[Inevitability]

Just realized something: Slayer of Domiel is considered one of the better rogue PrCs (full SA advancement, great spells from a great list, improved evasion, at-will detect evil, divine grace) but requires three feats for entry, one of which requires 15 charisma. It's definitely one of the more rewarding payoffs for a charisma-based rogue if you can hack being Exalted LG.

Shadowbane Stalker is worth exploring as a way to get some actual class features instead of half a dozen Death Touch upgrades; Rogue 6 / SoD 7 / Stalker 6 / Rogue +1 gives you all the good stuff from Slayer of Domiel, a +4 bonus on search and sense motive, and the ability to give up spells for bonuses to AC or stealth (especially nice if you buy some pearls of power).

Also, Divine Grace makes up for any 'downside' that Craven might've had so grab that for sure.