PEACH: Level-Up System for my RPG

[Catullus64]

I'm looking for perspectives on the second draft of a character advancement system for my homebrew fantasy RPG. The idea is to eschew XP and tie progress more directly to the actions & rewards of adventuring.

Broadly, there are three categories of items on your character sheet that can be improved: one category which improves as your character survives fights, one category that improves as you spend time and money on training, and one category that you obtain as a reward for adventures.

Do these mechanics, as outlined below, create any perverse incentives for individual characters, for GMs, or for groups as a whole? Do you have ideas for how these systems could be made more fun? Is the wording as presented below clear, or are there ambiguities/confusions that I should straighten out?

Not going to post the entire ruleset of my RPG, but I will provide a summary of those rules such as are relevant to character advancement. If you have critiques that depend on understanding these mechanics more precisely, ask and I can provide more detail.

The basic task resolution mechanic is a simple dice pool one; roll a number of d6 equal to relevant ability score +/- modifiers, and the number of successes scored is equal to the number of fives and sixes rolled. If a certain number of successes are not specified, and the roll is not a contest, assume that any number of successes is sufficient.

There are ten ability scores, which range from 1 to 10: Attack, Defense, Strength, Dexterity, Speed, Constitution, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower, and Charisma. Your base Attack and Defense are determined by class; your other eight base scores are determined by a fixed pool of allocated points at character creation. Highest possible starting score is 5.

Characters also have Hit Points and Morale Points, the starting numbers of which are also determined by class; they are not tied to ability scores. Their effects are not important to these advancement mechanics, except that effects known as Wounds and Shock are related to their loss. The highest starting HP a character can have is 9, and the lowest 5; the highest starting MP a character can have is 7, and the lowest 4.

Which weapons, armor, and shields a character can use is also determined by class. All classes are trained with at least Light Armor and Small Shields.

Characters have a Literacy Level, also determined by class & cultural group. This level ranges from 1 (fully illiterate) to 4 (master of letters).

Adventure Verbs are this system's version of skills. When making a test that falls under the purview of one of your Adventure Verbs, you score successes on die rolls of four as well as five and six. They can be things like Jumping, Battle-Planning, Speech-Giving, etc. You begin with a selection of 6-8 Verbs, picked from two lists from your class and Cultural Group.


The "Learn By Fighting" Category:

Your character's Hit Points improve directly as you survive dangerous encounters. For this purpose, a "dangerous encounter" is a combat, or any other perilous situation for which the GM uses the combat turn-order sequence. Keep a tally of the number of such encounters in which your character lost Hit Points. If none of those Hit Points were lost to close combat attacks by an enemy, the encounter only counts as one-half. When your tally reaches certain numbers, your character's current and maximum Hit Points improve by 1. Your character's maximum Hit Points can never exceed twice the number with which you started.

Surviving and recovering from Wounds also toughens your character up. The first time that your character fully recovers from a Wound on a given body part, count that as one encounter for the purposes of the improvement track. With a head, a chest, two legs, and two arms, you can earn up to six encounters' worth of improvement this way!

HP Improvement Track (# of Encounters): 3, 5, 8, 11, 15, 19, 23, 28, 33, 39, 45


Your character's Morale Points improve in a similar fashion to your Hit Points; keep a separate tally of the number of dangerous encounters in which your character lost Morale Points, and note the intervals at which your Morale Points improve by 1. As with Hit Points, your character's maximum Morale Points can never exceed twice their starting amount.

The first time that your character experiences a given Shock, count that (at the end of combat) as one encounter for the purposes of the improvement track. With six possible Shock results, you can earn up to six encounters' worth of improvement this way!

MP Improvement Track: 2, 5, 9, 14, 20, 27, 35

Your character's Attack & Defense scores also improve in correspondence with the number of encounters in which your character fights. Any combat in which your character both made an attack and was the target of an enemy attack counts; if none of these attacks either by or against you were in melee, the encounter only counts as one-half. When you reach a threshold indicated, choose whether to increase your Attack or your Defense score by 1.

Attack & Defense Improvement Track: 5, 11, 18, 26, 35, 45

Note: With the highest possible Attack and Defense Scores at character creation being 4/4, the maximum a character can achieve is a combined value of 14.


The "Learn by Training" Category:

The following sections concern those abilities which your character must train between adventures. Note that during whatever period of time is specified for training, your character cannot perform other activities, such as going on adventures. This means that you cannot earn or otherwise obtain food & lodging during that period, and must pay for or otherwise receive it from another.

If you meet the requirements, you can serve as a teacher for your fellow party members; doing so of course means that you will not be able to pursue your own training or activities during that time, and must have your food & lodging provided as well.

Your eight other ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Speed, Constitution, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower, & Charisma) improve as a result of training in between adventures. The higher a score becomes, the more difficult it becomes to train it further.

Decide together with your GM what activities your practice will consist of, as appropriate to your environment and the ability you wish to raise. You must then spend a week in practice. At the end of this week of training, roll a test with the ability score you wish to improve. If you score successes equal to or exceeding your current score (the latter being possible if you receive Dice Bonuses), you raise the ability score by 1. If not, you must continue training for subsequent days; for each additional, contiguous three-day period that you train, you may attempt another test, until the total number of successes obtained across the entire training period reaches the required score. You can train for as many days as you need, but these days must be contiguous, or else the lessons are lost.

Once you have raised an ability score, you cannot raise that score again until you have undergone another adventure of at least three days' duration.

At the beginner levels, it is easy to self-train; you can raise an ability score from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3 with no assistance. To reach scores of 4 or more, however, you will need to to obtain the assistance of a teacher. This teacher must have at least the desired score in the ability you wish to train, and will usually require a fee; the Equipment & Services section contains typical price structures for training up to a score of 7. Teachers for scores of 8-10 will typically not teach for money, but will instead demand special favors, rare artifacts, or elaborate tests of worth.

A character can attempt to improve their reading ability, or master new tongues. Attempting to train in literacy or a language is structured like training an ability score. A teacher is always required, who must possess at least the desired Literacy Level or speak the desired language. Certain Intelligence scores must also be possessed to reach certain Literacy Levels: Intelligence 2 to reach Literacy Level 2, Intelligence 4 to reach Literacy Level 3, and Intelligence 6 to reach Literacy Level 4.

After the initial week of training, the character need not make an ability score test. Instead, they must study on their own for a number of months equal to twice the desired Literacy Level, or two months for a spoken language. Unlike other training, this can be done concurrent with other activities between adventures, provided the character has access to reading material and writing implements (for Literacy) or interlocutors (for a language) throughout. Once you complete the required period, you either master the desired language, or improve your Literacy Level by 1. You can train in only one Language at a time.

You can also train to obtain new Adventure Verbs from your class or culture. To do so, you must obtain the services of a teacher who already possesses the verb in question, and spend three days in their tutelage. At the end of this three-day period, roll an ability score test; the GM will decide which ability score is most appropriate to the verb. The number of successes required is equal to the number of additional verbs you have already learned since character creation; thus, your first new verb training will succeed automatically. If you do not meet the number of successes, you may spend subsequent days training; for each additional, contiguous day that you train, you may attempt another test until the total number of successes across the entire training period reaches the required score. You can train for as many days as you need, but these days must be contiguous, or else the lessons are lost.

Once you have trained in a new Verb, you cannot train another until you have undergone another adventure of at least three days' duration.

The process for training in the use of a an armor, weapon, or shield type is as follows. First, you must obtain an armament of the kind you wish to master, including 10 ammunition for a missile weapon, or 5 if it is a thrown weapon. Next, you must find a teacher willing to instruct you; that teacher can be any character trained in the use of the desired armament. You must then spend a week of intensive practice under this character's tutelage. At the end of said week, make a Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Speed test. If you succeed on all four, you master the use of the armament. If you fail any tests, you must spend another three-day period training to attempt the tests that you failed again before you have mastered the armament. You can train for as many days as you need, but these days must be contiguous, or else the lessons are lost.

To learn the use of a two-handed weapon, you must have first mastered the use of its one-handed cousin, and have wielded one at least once in a life-or-death fight: Sword -> Two-Handed Sword, Axe -> Two-Handed Axe, Mace/Warhammer -> Two-Handed Mace/Warhammer, Spear -> Two-Handed Polearm & Lance.

To learn the use of Large Shields, you must have first mastered the use of Medium Shields, and have wielded one at least once in a life-or-death-fight.

To learn the use of Heavy Armor, you must have first mastered the use of Medium Armor, and have worn it at least once in a life-or-death fight.

The "Learn as a Reward" Category:

This is the least developed category, but the idea is that new magical powers and other special abilities are obtained as rewards for completing adventures or performing certain feats. The text I have for it is as follows:

Unlike with all the game statistics defined above, neither training nor combat experience will teach your character new magics or special class abilities. Instead, each new magic or ability has certain feats that must be performed or special items that must be obtained to unlock it; there may also be unique teachers who can impart it. Some abilities will be unique to your class, while others will be shared with characters of your Class Archetype or Cultural Group. The Advanced Abilities section contains descriptions of new features you might obtain, and an outline of what kind of deeds or things are needed to master it. It is ultimately up to your GM to decide how these requirements will emerge in the details of the game, but you should be proactive in seeking clues and information on how to achieve them. For instance, you might know that slaying a mighty monstrous foe and consuming its heart will allow your Warrior character to learn the Killing Frenzy ability; but your GM will determine that, say, the Manticore of Mount Taran is a suitable foe to meet this requirement.

Thank you for your time and feedback!

[MrStabby]

Your character's Hit Points improve directly as you survive dangerous encounters. For this purpose, a "dangerous encounter" is a combat, or any other perilous situation for which the GM uses the combat turn-order sequence. Keep a tally of the number of such encounters in which your character lost Hit Points. If none of those Hit Points were lost to close combat attacks by an enemy, the encounter only counts as one-half. When your tally reaches certain numbers, your character's current and maximum Hit Points improve by 1. Your character's maximum Hit Points can never exceed twice the number with which you started.

Surviving and recovering from Wounds also toughens your character up. The first time that your character fully recovers from a Wound on a given body part, count that as one encounter for the purposes of the improvement track. With a head, a chest, two legs, and two arms, you can earn up to six encounters' worth of improvement this way!

HP Improvement Track (# of Encounters): 3, 5, 8, 11, 15, 19, 23, 28, 33, 39, 45

OK, so first perverse incentive is nof for PCs to take damage. No longer would an arger or wizard want to stay back, but rather might want to be caught at the edge of their own fireball or similar... then there is the bag of rats approach to pick a fight with a rat whilst still in a fight and get bitten for one HP of damage.

It has a very strong "what doesn't kil you makes you stronger" vibe, whilst ignoring the very real effects of war injuries on people - so I won' give it mars from a realism perspective either. Its hard not to compare it to D&D so I don't know what kind of classes and abilities are there, to compare it to.






Your character's Morale Points improve in a similar fashion to your Hit Points; keep a separate tally of the number of dangerous encounters in which your character lost Morale Points, and note the intervals at which your Morale Points improve by 1. As with Hit Points, your character's maximum Morale Points can never exceed twice their starting amount.

The first time that your character experiences a given Shock, count that (at the end of combat) as one encounter for the purposes of the improvement track. With six possible Shock results, you can earn up to six encounters' worth of improvement this way!

MP Improvement Track: 2, 5, 9, 14, 20, 27, 35

Mentally I have a vision of this as being akin to the HP one, just an equivalent for things that would be a wisdom save in D&D? And is this the first time they experience a given shock, or the first time they experience it that combat?




Your character's Attack & Defense scores also improve in correspondence with the number of encounters in which your character fights. Any combat in which your character both made an attack and was the target of an enemy attack counts; if none of these attacks either by or against you were in melee, the encounter only counts as one-half. When you reach a threshold indicated, choose whether to increase your Attack or your Defense score by 1.

Attack & Defense Improvement Track: 5, 11, 18, 26, 35, 45

Note: With the highest possible Attack and Defense Scores at character creation being 4/4, the maximum a character can achieve is a combined value of 14.

So now someone playing a tank or playing a battlefield controller is going to be stopping other characters character progression? This seems a rule almost designed to breed resentment? Also are there spells and abilities that are not technically attacks and therefore would cause characters relying on these to fall behind?



Your eight other ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Speed, Constitution, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower, & Charisma) improve as a result of training in between adventures. The higher a score becomes, the more difficult it becomes to train it further.

Decide together with your GM what activities your practice will consist of, as appropriate to your environment and the ability you wish to raise. You must then spend a week in practice. At the end of this week of training, roll a test with the ability score you wish to improve. If you score successes equal to or exceeding your current score (the latter being possible if you receive Dice Bonuses), you raise the ability score by 1. If not, you must continue training for subsequent days; for each additional, contiguous three-day period that you train, you may attempt another test, until the total number of successes obtained across the entire training period reaches the required score. You can train for as many days as you need, but these days must be contiguous, or else the lessons are lost.

Once you have raised an ability score, you cannot raise that score again until you have undergone another adventure of at least three days' duration.


At the beginner levels, it is easy to self-train; you can raise an ability score from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3 with no assistance. To reach scores of 4 or more, however, you will need to to obtain the assistance of a teacher. This teacher must have at least the desired score in the ability you wish to train, and will usually require a fee; the Equipment & Services section contains typical price structures for training up to a score of 7. Teachers for scores of 8-10 will typically not teach for money, but will instead demand special favors, rare artifacts, or elaborate tests of worth.

This seems reasonable and fair.




A character can attempt to improve their reading ability, or master new tongues. Attempting to train in literacy or a language is structured like training an ability score. A teacher is always required, who must possess at least the desired Literacy Level or speak the desired language. Certain Intelligence scores must also be possessed to reach certain Literacy Levels: Intelligence 2 to reach Literacy Level 2, Intelligence 4 to reach Literacy Level 3, and Intelligence 6 to reach Literacy Level 4.

After the initial week of training, the character need not make an ability score test. Instead, they must study on their own for a number of months equal to twice the desired Literacy Level, or two months for a spoken language. Unlike other training, this can be done concurrent with other activities between adventures, provided the character has access to reading material and writing implements (for Literacy) or interlocutors (for a language) throughout. Once you complete the required period, you either master the desired language, or improve your Literacy Level by 1. You can train in only one Language at a time.

Yes. Again good. I really like the idea of languages being important to exploring the world. I would hope there are real concrete impacts to not having the right language level (and not you find a spell to speak the language or there just happens to be a different NPC round the next corner)




You can also train to obtain new Adventure Verbs from your class or culture. To do so, you must obtain the services of a teacher who already possesses the verb in question, and spend three days in their tutelage. At the end of this three-day period, roll an ability score test; the GM will decide which ability score is most appropriate to the verb. The number of successes required is equal to the number of additional verbs you have already learned since character creation; thus, your first new verb training will succeed automatically. If you do not meet the number of successes, you may spend subsequent days training; for each additional, contiguous day that you train, you may attempt another test until the total number of successes across the entire training period reaches the required score. You can train for as many days as you need, but these days must be contiguous, or else the lessons are lost.

Once you have trained in a new Verb, you cannot train another until you have undergone another adventure of at least three days' duration.

I really like the sound of adventure verbs; even if similar to skills I feel that the inbuilt structure is likely to be very advantageous. The requirement of rolling and contiguous days is something I don't like. Sure, sometimes characters will get lucky or unlucky, bu this really bakes things into a character progression. Difference in rolls could see some significant gaps opening up between characters if verbs are important. If verbs are not that importnant, then I think it a wasted opportunity. To contiguity requirement also just seems like an arbitrary cuttoff where for two similar characters one could make a threshold and another might need one more success... but then events happen and the whole downtime period is wasted.




The process for training in the use of a an armor, weapon, or shield type is as follows. First, you must obtain an armament of the kind you wish to master, including 10 ammunition for a missile weapon, or 5 if it is a thrown weapon. Next, you must find a teacher willing to instruct you; that teacher can be any character trained in the use of the desired armament. You must then spend a week of intensive practice under this character's tutelage. At the end of said week, make a Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Speed test. If you succeed on all four, you master the use of the armament. If you fail any tests, you must spend another three-day period training to attempt the tests that you failed again before you have mastered the armament. You can train for as many days as you need, but these days must be contiguous, or else the lessons are lost.

To learn the use of a two-handed weapon, you must have first mastered the use of its one-handed cousin, and have wielded one at least once in a life-or-death fight: Sword -> Two-Handed Sword, Axe -> Two-Handed Axe, Mace/Warhammer -> Two-Handed Mace/Warhammer, Spear -> Two-Handed Polearm & Lance.

To learn the use of Large Shields, you must have first mastered the use of Medium Shields, and have wielded one at least once in a life-or-death-fight.

To learn the use of Heavy Armor, you must have first mastered the use of Medium Armor, and have worn it at least once in a life-or-death fight.

I really like the structure to this and the natural feel of progression to more and more sophisitcated/bigger weapons. I would like to see more steps up from the basic than just going to two-hands. Things like a a rapier bringing some kind of finesse bonus to a short sword but has short sword proficiency as a prerequisite. Needing to succeed at four tests might be really tough, and especially for a character not prioritising these things. It may make backup weapon usage very difficult and be a real blow to any class lie the D&D bard (or even paladin) that might be spread a bit too thin. Of course, not knowing the differen weapon impacts its hard to know how important it is.

Same thoughts about contiguity as above.

Might I suggest instead of requiring the 4 tests, you have a choice of three of the four? It allows a bit more variability in martial characters.

One final thing on this - weapons/armaments is the kind of thing that I find is part of a players vison for their character. Knight in shining armour with a big two handed sword is then needing a week for medium armour, a week for heavy armour, a week for a sword, a week to advance to two handed swords. Any kind of dense set of adventures that can't let players take at a minimum a month out to train, and probably a lot more given how tough this looks, is then an adventure where players are waiting a long time to realy have the character they wanted to play.



Unlike with all the game statistics defined above, neither training nor combat experience will teach your character new magics or special class abilities. Instead, each new magic or ability has certain feats that must be performed or special items that must be obtained to unlock it; there may also be unique teachers who can impart it. Some abilities will be unique to your class, while others will be shared with characters of your Class Archetype or Cultural Group. The Advanced Abilities section contains descriptions of new features you might obtain, and an outline of what kind of deeds or things are needed to master it. It is ultimately up to your GM to decide how these requirements will emerge in the details of the game, but you should be proactive in seeking clues and information on how to achieve them. For instance, you might know that slaying a mighty monstrous foe and consuming its heart will allow your Warrior character to learn the Killing Frenzy ability; but your GM will determine that, say, the Manticore of Mount Taran is a suitable foe to meet this requirement.

This is so hard to judge. I would really, really need to trust the DM for this to be a good thing. In most games, there are a lot of things that if you want, you can just get as you advance. If thats the character you want to play, mostly you can. Here it not ony relies on a DM putting certain challenges in your path, but also that they happen soon enough to be useful. I can imagine a situation with some kind of doom clock and just enough time to do two of these special quests and a party of 4 - each of whom has a really valuable ability they want to be able to get before that final boss and each needing a different activity. I really love the idea, and I think it should be part of the game, bu having the most fun and differentiating abilities locked behind time consuming activities and DM priorities seems like its likely to leave some players feeling hard done by. It is very flexible and flavourful, but sometimes its nice to know 'when we get to level X I will have ability y - which will be useful against the type of enemies we will face at that level'.



I kind of like it all in all, but there might be some really tough balance issues. So imagine a class that might be an archetypal swashbuckler. Its strengths come from charm, from leaping from the chandaliers, and a bit of quick wit - it would get a lot out of developing these class abilities and getting access to new verbs. A more passive, defensive brute with class abilities leaning into geting better results from hit points and attack and defence scores would get their significant power-ups from very different sources. There would be a conflict of interests with one PC wanting to fight, others looking to avoid it to get to the next downtime.

[Maat Mons]

The entire "Learn by Fighting" category generates a perverse incentive to engage in violence. Where are the "peaceful conflict resolution," "negotiating mutually-beneficial outcomes," and "deescalating the situation" rewards? As it stands, talking down a group of would-be enemies is basically throwing away potential mechanical advancement. For that matter, so is sneaking past them.

[Catullus64]

Thanks for the detailed feedback, MrStabby. There are areas where you are critical where I think my choices can be defended, or it comes down to difference in taste, but I won't focus on those; I don't ask for advice just to argue with it! I'll focus on where I can try to incorporate or engage with your feedback.


OK, so first perverse incentive is now for PCs to take damage. No longer would an archer or wizard want to stay back, but rather might want to be caught at the edge of their own fireball or similar... then there is the bag of rats approach to pick a fight with a rat whilst still in a fight and get bitten for one HP of damage.

It has a very strong "what doesn't kil you makes you stronger" vibe, whilst ignoring the very real effects of war injuries on people - so I won' give it mars from a realism perspective either. Its hard not to compare it to D&D so I don't know what kind of classes and abilities are there, to compare it to.

I am a little worried about the bag of rats thing, and thought about trying to include some further language to lock it out, but couldn't really think of anything clear and simple. My hope is that the combat is lethal enough that wasting actions or taking unnecessary damage in order to grind HP is not a worthwhile tradeoff.

Mostly, though, I hope to encourage GMs to handle it well. Note the language of "an encounter for which the GM uses the combat turn-sequence"; a sane GM won't break out the combat system for rats, or have them deal any real damage in an existing fight.




Mentally I have a vision of this as being akin to the HP one, just an equivalent for things that would be a wisdom save in D&D? And is this the first time they experience a given shock, or the first time they experience it that combat?

The first time ever, such that the amount of progression a character can get out of experiencing Shocks is limited. There are lots of standard ways to lose & regain Morale in combat; Shocks are essentially nasty debuffs you get hit with if you reach 0 MP.



So now someone playing a tank or playing a battlefield controller is going to be stopping other characters character progression? This seems a rule almost designed to breed resentment? Also are there spells and abilities that are not technically attacks and therefore would cause characters relying on these to fall behind?


As for the issue of battlefield control or tanking characters denying other people's progression, could you elaborate on how you see them stopping other characters' progression? If the classes are well designed, there's pretty much no controller/tank so effective that they can prevent enemies from attacking anyone else.

I guess I see it as a "people get what they need most" system. If you're playing a character who gets into the thick of it more often, and therefore really needs improvements in both Attack and Defense, you'll get those up faster; magic-wielding characters, or characters who want to hang back and shoot missiles, won't level these as fast, but don't need them as much.



I really like the sound of adventure verbs; even if similar to skills I feel that the inbuilt structure is likely to be very advantageous. The requirement of rolling and contiguous days is something I don't like. Sure, sometimes characters will get lucky or unlucky, bu this really bakes things into a character progression. Difference in rolls could see some significant gaps opening up between characters if verbs are important. If verbs are not that importnant, then I think it a wasted opportunity. To contiguity requirement also just seems like an arbitrary cuttoff where for two similar characters one could make a threshold and another might need one more success... but then events happen and the whole downtime period is wasted.


My hope, perhaps naive, is that players have enough other downtime activities that they don't mind waiting a few extra days in town for Steve to finish his Charisma training if he gets unlucky. I hope for it to be a game where players set the pace of adventures more than the GM. But I am open to being persuaded that there's a better way to do things.

Mostly, I want to use these training periods to link money directly to advancement, but also to slow the narrative pace of games. You know, avoid the phenomenon common to Dungeons & Dragons where you meet your companions in a village inn, and three weeks later you're all basically demigods.



I really like the structure to this and the natural feel of progression to more and more sophisticated/bigger weapons. I would like to see more steps up from the basic than just going to two-hands. Things like a a rapier bringing some kind of finesse bonus to a short sword but has short sword proficiency as a prerequisite. Needing to succeed at four tests might be really tough, and especially for a character not prioritizing these things. It may make backup weapon usage very difficult and be a real blow to any class lie the D&D bard (or even paladin) that might be spread a bit too thin. Of course, not knowing the different weapon impacts its hard to know how important it is.

Same thoughts about contiguity as above.

Might I suggest instead of requiring the 4 tests, you have a choice of three of the four? It allows a bit more variability in martial characters.

At present, the weapons really don't have much more granularity in type that that, because they're pretty closely balanced against one another. All one-handed sword types are just classed as 'Sword' with the same game statistics, for instance.

If it helps give an idea of the balance, here's a brief rundown of the one-handed melee weapons (obviously the special combat actions won't mean much, but it should be conceptually useful:

Dagger: +1A, Can be used while Grappling, Ignores some Armor when Grappling or Flanking.
Sword: +1A, +1D, bonuses to Feint, Riposte, and Disarm.
Axe: +2A, bonuses to Sunder Armor & Shields
Mace/Warhammer: +1A, ignores some Armor, bonus to Knock Down.
Quarterstaff: +1A/+1D, bonuses to Maneuver and Knock Down which increase when two-handed.
Spear: +2A, +1D

And the two-handed versions are mostly those same situational bonuses with higher attack scores.

As for the tests, some numbers to consider. For a character with 3s in all physical attributes (entirely doable from character creation, one stat array option is just 3s in everything), the odds of succeeding on all four tests in one go are about 1 in 4. The odds of failing all four is less than 1 in 100. So the average character will undoubtedly make some progress in their first training week. In case it wasn't clear, you don't need to succeed on all four at the same time; you only have to keep re-trying the ones you didn't already get. Does that still seem too steep?



One final thing on this - weapons/armaments is the kind of thing that I find is part of a players vision for their character. Knight in shining armour with a big two handed sword is then needing a week for medium armour, a week for heavy armour, a week for a sword, a week to advance to two handed swords. Any kind of dense set of adventures that can't let players take at a minimum a month out to train, and probably a lot more given how tough this looks, is then an adventure where players are waiting a long time to really have the character they wanted to play.


If it is an integral part of a character's vision, there are several classes that start with training in ALL the weapons, armor, and shields.



This is so hard to judge. I would really, really need to trust the DM for this to be a good thing. In most games, there are a lot of things that if you want, you can just get as you advance. If thats the character you want to play, mostly you can. Here it not ony relies on a DM putting certain challenges in your path, but also that they happen soon enough to be useful. I can imagine a situation with some kind of doom clock and just enough time to do two of these special quests and a party of 4 - each of whom has a really valuable ability they want to be able to get before that final boss and each needing a different activity. I really love the idea, and I think it should be part of the game, bu having the most fun and differentiating abilities locked behind time consuming activities and DM priorities seems like its likely to leave some players feeling hard done by. It is very flexible and flavourful, but sometimes its nice to know 'when we get to level X I will have ability y - which will be useful against the type of enemies we will face at that level'.


Heh, yeah, it is just kind of an 'insert game design here' piece of text right now. I've been kind of thinking of these abilities as being like magic items, in terms of how you rely on the GM to be fair in giving out ones that suit your character.


The entire "Learn by Fighting" category generates a perverse incentive to engage in violence. Where are the "peaceful conflict resolution," "negotiating mutually-beneficial outcomes," and "deescalating the situation" rewards?

Snide answer: In a different game that's not mostly about fighting dudes.

Slightly less snide answer: If you can achieve your objectives without fighting, you still get the benefits of whatever that objective was (such as treasure or magic), without having risked your life. But it seems quite fair to me that if you avoid fighting, you won't improve in the metrics that are pretty much exclusively related to fighting: Attack, Defense, Hit Points, Morale Points, use of weapons & armor.

[MrStabby]

As for the tests, some numbers to consider. For a character with 3s in all physical attributes (entirely doable from character creation, one stat array option is just 3s in everything), the odds of succeeding on all four tests in one go are about 1 in 4. The odds of failing all four is less than 1 in 100. So the average character will undoubtedly make some progress in their first training week. In case it wasn't clear, you don't need to succeed on all four at the same time; you only have to keep re-trying the ones you didn't already get. Does that still seem too steep?
Oh right - I had thought this was having to tick all the boxes for every day of training. That's quite a bit easier. On the other hand, the 3s in everything is going to be the highest possible probability of success so most players will find i harder. It isn't just that the average time will be long (expectations and pacing can manage that), but its that the variance will also potentialy be very high (or was in my interpretation). Still the variance is going to be prety damn high on this so you could get people getting multiple bonuses before one player picks up their first.



If it is an integral part of a character's vision, there are several classes that start with training in ALL the weapons, armor, and shields.
Good to know. On the other hand, its also good to have lots of ways players can grow thier capabilities in this area as well.




Heh, yeah, it is just kind of an 'insert game design here' piece of text right now. I've been kind of thinking of these abilities as being like magic items, in terms of how you rely on the GM to be fair in giving out ones that suit your character.
Yeah. I will admit to not having had the greatest time with magic items which might impact my views. Sometimes its great - you get something that is a great match for your character. At other times, it has been the DM giving my character something the DM things that that class should want to do, not what the character actualy wants to do.

I think its going to be even tougher with actual abilities - magic items are kind of what you pick up, but abilities are what your character actually is - and handing over character development to the DM is a huge risk.

[Maat Mons]

Let’s suppose the group as a whole has advanced quite a lot, so you need to use tough enemies to challenge them. Let’s also say one of the members has been very successful at staying in the back and keeping away from enemies, so they have very low defenses. Now let’s say that person decides they want to transition to being a more front-line sort, with higher defenses.

The way to make that transition is to start hanging out in front and taking hits. But the character has low defenses, and you’re putting them up against tough enemies. Doesn’t that make this transition period extremely dangerous?

You could switch to weaker enemies to keep that character alive, but the group as a whole wouldn’t be challenged then, because they’ve all become very good at what they do.

[MrStabby]

Let’s suppose the group as a whole has advanced quite a lot, so you need to use tough enemies to challenge them. Let’s also say one of the members has been very successful at staying in the back and keeping away from enemies, so they have very low defenses. Now let’s say that person decides they want to transition to being a more front-line sort, with higher defenses.

The way to make that transition is to start hanging out in front and taking hits. But the character has low defenses, and you’re putting them up against tough enemies. Doesn’t that make this transition period extremely dangerous?

You could switch to weaker enemies to keep that character alive, but the group as a whole wouldn’t be challenged then, because they’ve all become very good at what they do.

Reminds me of 2nd ed D&D dual classing.

[Catullus64]

After some more playtesting and a talk with my playtesters, I think I've come up with the outline of a system to handle obtaining new spells & abilities.

As the players play, their characters will earn Renown. Some actions may generate it, but for the most part players are getting 1 per session. Each special ability or advanced spell will have a default cost in Renown. Costs will vary from about 5-12.

At the end of a session, if a player meets the base HR requirement for an ability, they 'pitch' to the GM what specific feat or action they think their character should have to perform to obtain that ability. Acceptable pitches (using names or details the characters have learned about in their adventures) might look like:

"In order for my Hunter to learn Master Trapper, I will capture the Two-Headed Bull-Snake in a net."


"In order for my Sorcerer to learn Create Golem, I will find and read one of the Mad Alchemist's grimoires"


"In order for my Noble to learn Dueling Stance, I will find and defeat the swordmaster of the Hurricane Isle."

The GM then weighs several factors, possibly over the time before the next session:

Is the feat the player wants to attempt logically connected to the ability they want to unlock?
Is the feat more or less challenging than the examples given in that ability's description?
Is the feat directly tied in to a specific thing the character knows about and can work towards?
Does the player show particular panache or creativity in performing the feat?

The GM can refuse to allow the proposed feat as a condition; or, they may allow it, but decide that if the feat is too easy, not closely connected to the ability, or too simple and rote, they will raise the Renown cost from its base (no more than +3, ideally.) They can also add riders to the feat which the character must accomplish. They then say to the player something like:

"If you capture the Two-Headed Bull-Snake in a net, and it cannot escape, you can learn the Master Trapper ability at a cost of 5 Renown."

"If you find and read one of the Mad Alchemist's grimoires, you can learn the Create Golem spell at a cost of 8 Renown."

"If you find the swordmaster of Hurricane Isle, get him to accept a formal challenge, and defeat him, you can learn Dueling Stance at a cost of 6 Renown."

If the player doesn't like that offer, they can refuse it, but they are discouraged from haggling. They must then come up with a substantially new goal to unlock that ability. A player can have only one of these 'active offers' on the table at any one time.

I'm also toying with the idea that if a player retroactively thinks that something they did should qualify for an ability, which they would have had no way of knowing about in advance, they should be allowed to pitch that at session's end. The GM should pretty much always increase the Renown cost for this kind of retroactive pitch.