War Cleric's War Priest poll

[CTurbo]

I've seen many different takes and views on the phb War Cleric so I wanted to see some poll results.


#1 You think War Priest is fine as written and War Cleric needs no boost in power.
#2 You think War Priest could use a small bump in power, but not anywhere near straight Extra Attack levels of power.
#3 You think War Priest needs a big boost in power, but not as far as agreeing to it granting a full time Extra Attack.
#4 You think War Cleric should have a second attack just like other gish subclasses.
#5 Adding more attacks is not the kind of boost War Cleric needs.

[Atranen]

I voted for a slight bump in power, especially at higher levels. I think they are solid at low levels right now, just lacking in fulfilling the 'melee cleric' role later on.

[Catullus64]

Suggested change, for the "Slight Power Bump" camp: Let the Cleric use the Bonus Action attack without tying it specifically to the Attack action. For a class that is still notionally a full caster and wants to be using actions for potent spells, I think that's a big improvement in usability.

"But Spiritual Weapon!" Heaven forbid Clerics should be incentivized to cast literally anything else.

[Theodoxus]

It's fine as is, as long as players (and DMs) recognize what the domain is supposed to do, and not what they think or want it to do instead.

There's design space to make a melee focused frontline heavy hitting melee guy. The Strength Domain; the Competition Domain; heck the Warrior Domain could all exist in this niche. Whatever you want to call it, give it all the self buffs; grant it a fighting style and mini feats as features. Make them all cost a spell slot "gain x ability for 1 hour per level of spell slot expended." No concentration on these, so if you want to burn through all your slots and be the hulk, have a ball.

[Kane0]

Suggested change, for the "Slight Power Bump" camp: Let the Cleric use the Bonus Action attack without tying it specifically to the Attack action.

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[CTurbo]

Suggested change, for the "Slight Power Bump" camp: Let the Cleric use the Bonus Action attack without tying it specifically to the Attack action. For a class that is still notionally a full caster and wants to be using actions for potent spells, I think that's a big improvement in usability.

"But Spiritual Weapon!" Heaven forbid Clerics should be incentivized to cast literally anything else.

I actually really like this idea and have long thought about how to implement it without it being too overpowered. I don't think it would be a 'slight power bump' but more a 'considerable power boost' especially when you consider that Valor Bards and EK Fighters have to wait all the way until level 14 to be able to cast a spell with an Action and then make a melee weapon attack with a Bonus Action. This would have to be a high level feature, but what could the low level feature be?

[Catullus64]

I actually really like this idea and have long thought about how to implement it without it being too overpowered. I don't think it would be a 'slight power bump' but more a 'considerable power boost' especially when you consider that Valor Bards and EK Fighters have to wait all the way until level 14 to be able to cast a spell with an Action and then make a melee weapon attack with a Bonus Action. This would have to be a high level feature, but what could the low level feature be?

The EK and Valor Bard can do that at will at those levels, though, while the Cleric is only going to have about 3-4 uses for the whole day. Damage-over-day wise that seems to put it close to Action Surge; potent, but not out of line for a low-level character, and without as much scaling into the high levels.

[Dork_Forge]

The EK and Valor Bard can do that at will at those levels, though, while the Cleric is only going to have about 3-4 uses for the whole day. Damage-over-day wise that seems to put it close to Action Surge; potent, but not out of line for a low-level character, and without as much scaling into the high levels.

The bolded is a red flag imo more than anything, Action Surge is a flagship feature of the entire Fighter class, War Priest is just a single subclass feature which, unlike Action Surge, you can pump and dump for a power spike if you like.

[Catullus64]

The bolded is a red flag imo more than anything, Action Surge is a flagship feature of the entire Fighter class, War Priest is just a single subclass feature which, unlike Action Surge, you can pump and dump for a power spike if you like.

Aaaand I take another drink for 'multiclassing ruins everything.' I've stopped even trying to think about how to fine-tune the game's balance with it.

But note the latter part of what I said; a Fighter's Action Surge increases its power over levels dramatically due to multiple grades of Extra Attack; War Priest is never that much better than it is at Level 1, some fairly minor Wisdom scaling aside.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Aaaand I take another drink for 'multiclassing ruins everything.' I've stopped even trying to think about how to fine-tune the game's balance with it.


:Grumpy-cat: you can't fine tune the balance with multiclassing in play.

As to the main topic, I don't like bonus action attacks in general. Just give them Extra Attack at some point and a different low level feature.

[Dork_Forge]

Aaaand I take another drink for 'multiclassing ruins everything.' I've stopped even trying to think about how to fine-tune the game's balance with it.

I wasn't talking about MCing, though yes it would be a consideration. My point was rather that a Cleric 1 feature shouldn't really be comparable to Action Surge like that, they occupy vastly different amounts of each other's class budget.


But note the latter part of what I said; a Fighter's Action Surge increases its power over levels dramatically due to multiple grades of Extra Attack; War Priest is never that much better than it is at Level 1, some fairly minor Wisdom scaling aside.

That's not really true though. Assuming the change is divorce it from the Attack action, then it actually ramps up in power:

- At 2nd level Guided Strike will become available, at 6th level the Cleric will have enough to most likely use it every time they use War Priest (unless they really dump it).

- At 8th level the attack will become more powerful thanks to Divine Strike, and then scale further at 14th level, which increases the value of both War Priest and Guided Strike.

- As levels increase more ASIs will come, giving the opportunity for SS or GWM, which Guided Strike would support well, this also increases uses from Wis bumping.

- The higher the level the more likely to have magic weapons/more powerful magic weapons

- The Cleric's spellcasting ramps up throughout their entire progression, increasing the overall power the combo makes

A Cleric using War Priest at Tier 4 would look vastly different to using it at 1st level, just like a Fighter's Action Surge. I'm not saying they're the same level of power, but it's also just not true that it doesn't scale significantly.

To illustrate, at 14th level the bonus alone would look like (assuming a Str build with GWM, Str 16 and a +1 weapon):

2d6+2d8+4+10 =30 Plus whatever the action is, which could be a Flame Strike hitting 2 or more creatures etc.

At 1st level that attack would have only been worth 2d6+3 = 10, with the action being worth maybe 4d6 for a Guiding Bolt.

That's being conservative with items, ignoring the possibility of concentrating on something like Spirit Guardians etc. and not trying to ring more damage out of the attack with other optimization, like a relevant racial feature. Even then War Priests value more than tripled without considering the probably two additional uses.


I'm really strictly opposed to removing the Attack requirement, but a lot of people seem to think War Priest isn't worth much, something I think PAM has to do with, but it's actually a solid feature that incorporates the War Cleric's scaling.

[Mastikator]

I wouldn't let War Clerics make extra attacks. I'd move their 6th level feature to level 2, and on level 6 instead let them use their wisdom modifier for weapon attacks in place of strength and dexterity, and have their weapon bypass B/P/S non-magic damage reduction.

[Kane0]

The bolded is a red flag imo more than anything, Action Surge is a flagship feature of the entire Fighter class, War Priest is just a single subclass feature which, unlike Action Surge, you can pump and dump for a power spike if you like.

Or give the fighter something else.

[Opsimos]

Balance-wise the subclass is fine as a dip for some classes, but other than that it requires a total overhaul. Even Extra Attack would be weaker than the cleric's ordinary spellcasting (or, often, dodge). Admittedly, however, war priest's flavour and simplicity are strong. And isn't that ahat matters most?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Suggested change, for the "Slight Power Bump" camp: Let the Cleric use the Bonus Action attack without tying it specifically to the Attack action. For a class that is still notionally a full caster and wants to be using actions for potent spells, I think that's a big improvement in usability.

"But Spiritual Weapon!" Heaven forbid Clerics should be incentivized to cast literally anything else.

Spiritual Weapon is seriously over-rated by a lot of players/ rating systems. It's decent at 3rd and 4th level and for a few levels after that where you're not using a higher level slot. It's also good on Death Clerics where you can paste some serious damage on. I suppose it's also good at tables with 5 min adventuring days where casting multiple leveled spells in a combat is the goal.
Other than that it's mediocre at best. You're casting it on round 2, so if you're lucky you get a 4 round fight and keep it close enough to an enemy to hit twice in the 3 remaining rounds. And that's best case scenario 2* (d8 + Wis Mod) later in a fight where damage is less valuable.

[Atranen]

Spiritual Weapon is seriously over-rated by a lot of players/ rating systems. It's decent at 3rd and 4th level and for a few levels after that where you're not using a higher level slot. It's also good on Death Clerics where you can paste some serious damage on. I suppose it's also good at tables with 5 min adventuring days where casting multiple leveled spells in a combat is the goal.
Other than that it's mediocre at best. You're casting it on round 2, so if you're lucky you get a 4 round fight and keep it close enough to an enemy to hit twice in the 3 remaining rounds. And that's best case scenario 2* (d8 + Wis Mod) later in a fight where damage is less valuable.

Agreed. It has a niche only because the cleric is relatively starved for bonus actions, and when spell slots aren't limiting its the best of bad options. If you pick telekinetic, though, you no longer have a use for it.

[Kane0]

Spiritual Weapon is seriously over-rated by a lot of players/ rating systems. It's decent at 3rd and 4th level and for a few levels after that where you're not using a higher level slot.

For a 2nd level slot you're getting a bonus action attack at range that deals force damage and doesn't eat up your concentration. That's a pretty solid.


Agreed. It has a niche only because the cleric is relatively starved for bonus actions, and when spell slots aren't limiting its the best of bad options.
There's Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Spirit Shroud and of course Healing Word.

[TaiLiu]

Woah. We can do polls now? :O

[animorte]

Woah. We can do polls now? :O
Only on the full site, of course! :smallwink:

[TaiLiu]

Only on the full site, of course! :smallwink:
What do you mean?

[animorte]

What do you mean?
Recently most of my access has been through mobile. A lot of features can't be accessed through mobile, though I can switch between the two at will.

[TaiLiu]

Recently most of my access has been through mobile. A lot of features can't be accessed through mobile, though I can switch between the two at will.
Oh, I see. How do you do it? I can't seem to find the poll option on the full site.

[CTurbo]

Oh, I see. How do you do it? I can't seem to find the poll option on the full site.

https://forums.giantitp.com/faq.php?s=&do=search&q=create+poll&titleandtext=1&match=all

[TaiLiu]

https://forums.giantitp.com/faq.php?s=&do=search&q=create+poll&titleandtext=1&match=all
Thanks so much! I appreciate the link. Unfortunately, when I make a new thread, I can't seem to find the "Yes, post a poll with this thread checkbox." Can anyone else find it?

[Kane0]

Thanks so much! I appreciate the link. Unfortunately, when I make a new thread, I can't seem to find the "Yes, post a poll with this thread checkbox." Can anyone else find it?

Me neither, not have I ever seen a poll created by a user here. I suspect it's because CTurbo has mod privileges.

[TaiLiu]

Me neither, not have I ever seen a poll created by a user here. I suspect it's because CTurbo has mod privileges.
Oh, I see. It's a mod thing. Cool. Thanks for clarifying. :smallsmile:

[CTurbo]

I didn't realize that sorry guys.

[Atranen]

For a 2nd level slot you're getting a bonus action attack at range that deals force damage and doesn't eat up your concentration. That's a pretty solid.


There's Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Spirit Shroud and of course Healing Word.

None of those are "every turn" kind of abilities though. Spirit shroud is worse than spirit guardians in pretty much all cases. Shield of faith is concentration. Sanctuary is situationally useful. And healing word, you will only cast every round if things are going poorly. In most combats, clerics only will use those BA options something like 1/4 of the time, in my experience. Which means spiritual weapon is their only way (pre telekinetic) to get a reliable BA.

These other spells do make spiritual weapon worse though -- on the off chance you need one of those BA spells, it misses a round.

[TaiLiu]

I didn't realize that sorry guys.
No worries! It's super cool seeing a poll around. I think it's neat.

[Kane0]

We've wanted them for ages too, not sure why we cant but im sure there is a q&a on it somewhwre

[GooeyChewie]

To illustrate, at 14th level the bonus alone would look like (assuming a Str build with GWM, Str 16 and a +1 weapon):

2d6+2d8+4+10 =30 Plus whatever the action is, which could be a Flame Strike hitting 2 or more creatures etc.

At 1st level that attack would have only been worth 2d6+3 = 10, with the action being worth maybe 4d6 for a Guiding Bolt.

This illustration tells me it would be good to disassociate War Priest from the attack action. Otherwise, the level 14 Cleric is likely better off just casting Flame Strike and ignoring War Priest. I would like for War Domain to still bonk people with weapons even after their spells advance to the point where they are the go-to action option.

[Psyren]

We've wanted them for ages too, not sure why we cant but im sure there is a q&a on it somewhwre

Roland likely has the full background here but IIRC it's a "tragedy of the commons" sort of issue - the mods doing the occasional one is one thing, but there is a tradeoff/diminishing returns between polls and actual discussion, so if everyone could make a poll we'd have fewer actual conversations and a bunch more graphs.

[CTurbo]

I've been told that only mods can create polls, and if a regular user wants a poll, they can start a thread and request a mod add the pole to it.

[CTurbo]

I'm surprised that nearly 1/3 of all votes are for War Cleric to get a dedicated extra attack.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm surprised that nearly 1/3 of all votes are for War Cleric to get a dedicated extra attack.

I voted for that because I happen to strongly dislike bonus action attacks as a general rule. They're so strongly distortionary that it's worth it (IMO) to standardize on "all your normal on-turn attacks come from the Attack action directly".

[Mastikator]

Personally if I wanted to play a divine gish there already is a really awesome option: paladin. I don't think cleric should ever compare to an actual martial or half-martial in terms of weapons proficiency, even one dedicated to war. I would rather a war cleric lean into the clericness of war: IE support warriors by making them more warrior-y. I'd honestly rather they be allowed to cast bless as a bonus action than gain extra attack.

[Amnestic]

I do wonder if the extra attack desires would be mitigated if a divine 'bladetrip' existed.

Or perhaps at that point people would just hope for bladesinger EA instead.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I do wonder if the extra attack desires would be mitigated if a divine 'bladetrip' existed.

Or perhaps at that point people would just hope for bladesinger EA instead.

I'm wondering if the existence of Bladesinger is what's driving a lot of this. When you start comparing subclasses, a Wizard that gets an improved extra attack can be used to justify a lot; that's the problem with power creep.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm wondering if the existence of Bladesinger is what's driving a lot of this. When you start comparing subclasses, a Wizard that gets an improved extra attack can be used to justify a lot; that's the problem with power creep.

Amen to that. Wizards should have been the last to get any weapon-attack-related features. Bladesinger should have really been covered by the EK. Or its own base class as a half-caster.

And then getting the best version of Extra Attack other than the Fighter, including getting a better version of the EK's feature...a couple levels earlier just puts the rotten cherry on the top of the crap cake.

[Amnestic]

I'm wondering if the existence of Bladesinger is what's driving a lot of this. When you start comparing subclasses, a Wizard that gets an improved extra attack can be used to justify a lot; that's the problem with power creep.

You're probably right, if bladesinger had gotten something perhaps more akin to Divine Strike at 6th instead of its two versions of Extra Attack then people probably wouldn't be looking at EA on cleric.

[CTurbo]

I've also wondered about a Divine blade cantrip and of course either existing one could be reskinned as such, but that doesn't really help the War domain at all assuming a Divine bladetrip would be available to all domains.

This is about War lacking in comparison to other Cleric domains moreso than being compared to other full casting classes/subclasses, but of course those comparisons were bound to come up.

I do think The Bladesinger getting an 'improved' extra attack was a big mistake and does make the War Cleric look even worse.

I can kind of understand why the Cleric wasn't granted a domain with a full 2nd attack considering it's defensive capabilities are far greater than any other full caster option especially at low levels. Hexbladelock can come close though as well as a high Dex/Int Wizard.

I think if War was granted a full second attack, it would have to come at the expense of something else. I don't have any ideas though.

[sithlordnergal]

I'm wondering if the existence of Bladesinger is what's driving a lot of this. When you start comparing subclasses, a Wizard that gets an improved extra attack can be used to justify a lot; that's the problem with power creep.

I don't think it is. War Cleric wasn't really that good before Bladesinger, and its position hasn't changed since Bladesinger came out. If you wanted to do a Divine Frontline Fighter you went Paladin. Or you did a Paladin/Cleric multiclass. Valor Bard and Bladelock existed in the PHB, they could have given War Cleric extra attack with ease.

[Corran]

I'm surprised that nearly 1/3 of all votes are for War Cleric to get a dedicated extra attack.
Voted for that too (specifically, what I had in mind was for it to turn into extra attack at level 6). I like weapon wielding clerics, and the fact that cantrips scale better while also using the primary stat, while the weapon attack does not) is putting me off (the differences are very slight, but still). Anyway, I would personally like to have at least one option that does not have to rely on GFB/BB (because they get old fast) where using weapons wont be secondguessed by me. Other casters get it (bards, warlocks, bladesinger), so why not some clerics? On the other hand, I wouldn't mind it staying as it is (maybe untying it from the attack action as people said) if cantrips were to get a big nerf in scaling.

[thoroughlyS]

I'm wondering if the existence of Bladesinger is what's driving a lot of this.
There has been a full caster subclass with extra attack since the PHB: the valor bard. My vote is for giving extra attack to the war cleric, because that just seems like the most sensible way to make gish subclasses (i.e. make them like the paladin and ranger). Honestly, I want every full caster to have a subclass with extra attack, and for pact of the blade to give extra attack instead of the more restrictive thirsting blade.

[Psyren]

There has been a full caster subclass with extra attack since the PHB: the valor bard. My vote is for giving extra attack to the war cleric, because that just seems like the most sensible way to make gish subclasses (i.e. make them like the paladin and ranger). Honestly, I want every full caster to have a subclass with extra attack, and for pact of the blade to give extra attack instead of the more restrictive thirsting blade.

Thirsting Blade is also in the PHB. Sure you won't get Cha to attack like with Hexblade, but you'll still functionally be a 9th-level spellcaster with Extra Attack.

[thoroughlyS]

Thirsting Blade is also in the PHB. Sure you won't get Cha to attack like with Hexblade, but you'll still functionally be a 9th-level spellcaster with Extra Attack.
I don't like thirsting blade, because it doesn't work with unarmed strikes or swapping between multiple weapons. Both minor things, but it's just a little annoying.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There has been a full caster subclass with extra attack since the PHB: the valor bard. My vote is for giving extra attack to the war cleric, because that just seems like the most sensible way to make gish subclasses (i.e. make them like the paladin and ranger). Honestly, I want every full caster to have a subclass with extra attack, and for pact of the blade to give extra attack instead of the more restrictive thirsting blade.

That's a reasonable POV. Though if every full caster get's an Extra Attack option, I'm not sure where that leaves some of the other classes. Sure, Fighters with their 3rd attack (at 11th) and Barbs with the ability to both dish out and absorb damage still have a role, but at some point I'm thinking that all martials need more if the game goes this way. Perhaps a 3rd attack? Or at least something that looks a bit like the Gloomstalker additional attack in round 1 in order to keep some distance?

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's a reasonable POV. Though if every full caster get's an Extra Attack option, I'm not sure where that leaves some of the other classes. Sure, Fighters with their 3rd attack (at 11th) and Barbs with the ability to both dish out and absorb damage still have a role, but at some point I'm thinking that all martials need more if the game goes this way. Perhaps a 3rd attack? Or at least something that looks a bit like the Gloomstalker additional attack in round 1 in order to keep some distance?

If I were rewriting things, no full caster would get Extra Attack. You wanna gish? Take a gish class built for that that gives up substantial casting power (half-caster-ish).

Because otherwise you have a spiral--casters get all the nice things martials get, plus some, so we buff martials, and then the gish contingent complains and casters get those nice things, and around it goes. Power galloping all the time.

In the interim, since that's not likely, confining it to particular subclasses that focus on that without getting tons of extras plus moving some of the full caster goodies into the non-gish subclasses would work. The War cleric is kinda a model there--the base Cleric list isn't super gravy, but subclasses give substantial goodies. So giving up those goodies to get Extra Attack mostly works. Bladesinger is the opposite--the base class has all the goodies and the (other) subclasses usually only have one real feature of any note. So giving up anemic features to get a huge chunk of martial prowess is...less balanced.

[CTurbo]

That's a reasonable POV. Though if every full caster get's an Extra Attack option, I'm not sure where that leaves some of the other classes. Sure, Fighters with their 3rd attack (at 11th) and Barbs with the ability to both dish out and absorb damage still have a role, but at some point I'm thinking that all martials need more if the game goes this way. Perhaps a 3rd attack? Or at least something that looks a bit like the Gloomstalker additional attack in round 1 in order to keep some distance?

I've always wished that the Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, and Ranger got a 3rd attack even if it means giving the Fighter a 5th. I'd like the Rogue base class to have a feature like what the Gloom Stalker gets at 11th level that allows them to re-roll a miss once per turn. Then each full caster could have a dedicated 'gish' subclass that gets 2 full attacks.

This would provide some much needed separation between a basic full caster that can make a single attack from a 'gish' that can make double that, and then you have your true martials that can make three or more.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

If I were rewriting things, no full caster would get Extra Attack. You wanna gish? Take a gish class built for that that gives up substantial casting power (half-caster-ish).

Because otherwise you have a spiral--casters get all the nice things martials get, plus some, so we buff martials, and then the gish contingent complains and casters get those nice things, and around it goes. Power galloping all the time.

In the interim, since that's not likely, confining it to particular subclasses that focus on that without getting tons of extras plus moving some of the full caster goodies into the non-gish subclasses would work. The War cleric is kinda a model there--the base Cleric list isn't super gravy, but subclasses give substantial goodies. So giving up those goodies to get Extra Attack mostly works. Bladesinger is the opposite--the base class has all the goodies and the (other) subclasses usually only have one real feature of any note. So giving up anemic features to get a huge chunk of martial prowess is...less balanced.

This is more where I land. I don't really see the need for any full caster to have extra attack. When I look at Valor Bard, which was I believe the point where all this started with 5e, it seems like you could make a pretty good weapon user if you wanted to spend the resources. Maybe too good.

[Snails]

I think the War Cleric needs a full rethink.

Is a war priest someone who is good at fighting himself? Or someone who is great to have along in a brawl because the fighters fight better?

I would propose allowing the War Cleric to cast Bless as a Bonus Action (or Action). That makes the character generically good at fighting in a simple way.

[CTurbo]

I think the War Cleric needs a full rethink.

Is a war priest someone who is good at fighting himself? Or someone who is great to have along in a brawl because the fighters fight better?

I would propose allowing the War Cleric to cast Bless as a Bonus Action (or Action). That makes the character generically good at fighting in a simple way.

I think the 5e Cleric in general is supposed to be a "War Priest" and for the most point, I think they nailed it. I just think that there should be at least 2 domains that are really meant to be played on the font lines in combat. One that focuses on healing and support(Life) and one the puts the WAR in War Priest lol that focuses more on actually being in melee, but obviously without stepping on the Paladin's toes too much.

I think Life is pretty spot on except I would probably give it better domain spells or at least add more than aren't on the Cleric's list. War is off the mark by quite a bit IMO.

[Psyren]

I don't like thirsting blade, because it doesn't work with unarmed strikes or swapping between multiple weapons. Both minor things, but it's just a little annoying.

It's indeed more limited but honestly, I see that as a feature. Gishes getting extra attack should have worse weapons overall than martials imo. Part of Hexblade's problem is that it removed some of the key restrictions Bladepact had.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think the 5e Cleric in general is supposed to be a "War Priest" and for the most point, I think they nailed it. I just think that there should be at least 2 domains that are really meant to be played on the font lines in combat. One that focuses on healing and support(Life) and one the puts the WAR in War Priest lol that focuses more on actually being in melee, but obviously without stepping on the Paladin's toes too much.

I think Life is pretty spot on except I would probably give it better domain spells or at least add more than aren't on the Cleric's list. War is off the mark by quite a bit IMO.

Hmm, I think you could be a support War Priest with features that allowed others to shine in battle; Bless is already such a good low level spell, so it's hard to compete with that, but something along those lines seems appropriate. And you need to survive yourself, which it already does a good job of.

[Mastikator]

I think for war cleric extra attack should not be the answer because it just turns the war cleric into a gish, and a war cleric should not be a warrior, it should be a commander.

Here are some ideas:

Can cast bless as a bonus action
Can add their wisdom to concentration saving throws during combat
Give temporary hitpoints when they cast healing spells
Replace shield of faith with heroism, when they cast it on someone they also gain the heroism effect while it is active
Their divine strike feature lets them use wisdom instead of strength for attack rolls and damage.

[Kane0]

I think for war cleric extra attack should not be the answer because it just turns the war cleric into a gish, and a war cleric should not be a warrior, it should be a commander.


Let them give the bonus attack to someone else with War Priest?

[TotallyNotEvil]

I've always wished that the Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, and Ranger got a 3rd attack even if it means giving the Fighter a 5th. I'd like the Rogue base class to have a feature like what the Gloom Stalker gets at 11th level that allows them to re-roll a miss once per turn. Then each full caster could have a dedicated 'gish' subclass that gets 2 full attacks.

This would provide some much needed separation between a basic full caster that can make a single attack from a 'gish' that can make double that, and then you have your true martials that can make three or more.

I've thought something along these lines since I clapped eyes at 5E. A lv 6 feature being, by and large, the hallmark of whether someone is good at melee or not makes things really lopsided, in this "you are either in all the way, or you don't even bother" situation we have now.

I'd much rather the War Cleric got the full extra attack. The Wizard has a subclass that gets it, the Bard has two, and even the base Warlock can get it just fine with Thirsting Blade. It's a very simple fix in that, while it might not make it as interesting as the Swords Bard or EA, at least won't leave you feeling like you are losing out by playing Cleric instead of the "right" gishy caster.

I don't see why we can't have the non-Fighter martials get a full third attack at 11th instead of their "kind of, almost an attack" that most get, and the Fighter gets to be special by being the only one getting a fourth one. Way smoother of an overall progression. Casters get one, gishes 2, martials 3, Fighters 4. Everyone gets to be progressively more special at it as their specialty dictates.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've thought something along these lines since I clapped eyes at 5E. A lv 6 feature being, by and large, the hallmark of whether someone is good at melee or not makes things really lopsided, in this "you are either in all the way, or you don't even bother" situation we have now.

I'd much rather the War Cleric got the full extra attack. The wizard has a subclass that gets it, the Bard has two, and even the base Warlock can get it just fine with Thirsting Blade. It's a very simple fix in that, while it might not make it as interesting as the Swords Bard or EA, at least won't leave you feeling like you are losing out by playing cleric instead of the "right" gishy caster.

I don't see why we can't have the non-Fighter martials get a full third attack at 11th instead of their "kind of, almost an attack" that most get, and the Fighter gets to be special by being the only one getting a fourth one. Way smoother of an overall progression.

You'd need to do something about paladins. Three or four attacks (with PAM or another Bonus Action attack) makes them even better at nova.

[TotallyNotEvil]

You'd need to do something about paladins. Three or four attacks (with PAM or another Bonus Action attack) makes them even better at nova.

As I see it, Smite costing spell slots is not that well designed of a class feature, as they get so, so few slots, and it feels terrible when you really want to cast a spell, but you also really want to hold onto that "maybe this isn't the toughest fight in the dungeon/maybe I crit the bad guy". And it's the thing that allows nova-ing.

So I'd be glad to tweak Smite into a less bursty option if we got some actual, real granularity on the Extra Attack/"what is a martial class" department. Everyone but the Fighter being restricted to two attacks makes things far, far too narrow.

Off the top of my head, either make Smites their own pool, or just slap a "can only smite once per turn" restriction there. Or both, both sounds good. The nova aspect that is super problematic is gone, but Pallys get to eat a lot more of their cake without feeling guilty about it.

[CTurbo]

Paladins are definitely over-tuned in 5e so giving them a 3rd attack will definitely be an issue without some other changes. I can see trading Improved Divine Smite and limiting Smites to once per round if not once per turn for a 3rd attack being a good start. Paladin's are strong enough as is that they really don't need a 3rd attack though. It's more the Barb and Monk that really need it the most.

A Paladin as-is will still be a stronger character than a War Cleric with a 2nd attack, but it's much much closer.

[Kane0]

I think Pally is almost the gold standard of a good class that isnt defined by being a full caster

[Theodoxus]

I think Pally is almost the gold standard of a good class that isnt defined by being a full caster

Agreed, however, if one were to houserule a change to EA that matches TotallyNotEvil's idea of graduated attacks, and didn't change anything else about the Paladin, then it would be very strong in comparison.

It does pretty much point to how much finagling you'd need to do, to make sure adding EA to the War Domain doesn't out match other classes and subclasses. Every potential change leads to another... to the point that my original thought stands (mirrored by Mastikator) - War shouldn't be considered a martial subclass, but a commander, or perhaps add 'lord' to the end of War, to harken back to 4E's class, which it should be emulating.

Heck, WotC kinda pulled another Hexblade, but for Clerics, by creating Order, Peace, and Twilight domains, parts of each would have been better combined into the War Domain instead.

[Mastikator]

I think when you're changing a subclass and have to start changing other classes to fix the change you've made, you've fallen through the thin ice you were warned not to walk on.

And one of the things that really sucked about 3.5e is the full-caster gishes who could out-martial the martials. Instead of using bladesingers and hexblades as an excuse to create yet another overpowered gish, maybe uhh.. don't?

[thoroughlyS]

As someone who prefers martials over casters, I agree that it's no fun to make casters who are better at fighting with weapons than martials. That said, I like the benchmark the valor bard and old bladesinger represent. Neither of those is going to outperform a barbarian, fighter, or rogue. And it's just so neat and tidy to give each full caster a subclass with access to extra attack (especially because it'll come one level later than half-casters and martials get it). But I do acknowledge that a cleric with extra attack would be pretty stacked, considering it also gets spiritual weapon and divine strikes/blessed strikes.