Why didn't the gods create two worlds at once?

[Beni-Kujaku]

We all know the Snarl is imprisoned inside the planet and destroys it every few thousands of years, which makes the gods very sad. But the Snarl doesn't seem to be that fast. I mean, it is incredibly fast, able to destroy a world in 27 minutes, but not fast enough that Laurin cannot dodge one attack, or to be able to instantly move and destroy the world in one round.

Is there a reason why the gods didn't try having two planets at once, one as the padlock, and one where mortals actually live? They could destroy and recreate the first planet before the Snarl actually escapes, or create rows and rows of protection while keeping the other world safe longer, maybe long enough to try natural selection even!

I guess the big unknown here is if it's possible to recreate the world fast enough for the Snarl to not find and destroy another planet. We don't really know how long the "interim" period where the Snarl calms down can last. The first one lasted centuries (according to Crayons of Time), but it might have just been gods being overly cautious and being too fearful of the Snarl to try earlier.


So, do you think they ever tried that? If not, why? If yes, why did it fail?

[BaronOfHell]

I am just guessing here, but I imagine the entire sky (stars, galaxies, universe) which can be seen from Earth is all on the same plane of existence, the mortal plane.
It means, even though depicted as such, the Snarl isn't really inside the planet, as much as it is behind the curtains of the mortal plane, meaning rifts potentially could even form inside the sun if it should be.

Alternatively, all the other planets (if they even exists), stars and stuff are merely decorations and not actual places one can travel to.

Or maybe they are different planes altogether?

[Coppercloud]

It was mentioned that in order to fix the rifts, the gods needed the raw threads of reality (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) that form the current world. It stands to reason that there's just not enough of them to create more than one world at a time, or else this wouldn't be an issue.

[Tubercular Ox]

This is such a great idea that I'm sure Rich would invent something to squash it as soon as it became too popular.

Personally I'm going with "Every part of the Snarl's prison is necessary," including the functional civilization. Yes, the civilization also serves the Gods' needs, but they can't keep it on another world for esoteric reasons.

Alternative bet: A second world would weaken the Snarl's prison, which is effectively the same as Coppercloud.

[Peelee]

We all know the Snarl is imprisoned inside the planet and destroys it every few thousands of years, which makes the gods very sad. But the Snarl doesn't seem to be that fast. I mean, it is incredibly fast, able to destroy a world in 27 minutes, but not fast enough that Laurin cannot dodge one attack, or to be able to instantly move and destroy the world in one round.

Is there a reason why the gods didn't try having two planets at once, one as the padlock, and one where mortals actually live? They could destroy and recreate the first planet before the Snarl actually escapes, or create rows and rows of protection while keeping the other world safe longer, maybe long enough to try natural selection even!
Because at that point, why not a million planets as a million padlocks?

There's no real narrative benefit this would give.

[Tubercular Ox]

Because at that point, why not a million planets as a million padlocks?


Point of order, the proposal is a million planets and one padlock. The padlock is sacrificial and regularly remade. The million planets would be long-lived.

But I agree with you.

[Keltest]

Point of order, the proposal is a million planets and one padlock. The padlock is sacrificial and regularly remade. The million planets would be long-lived.

But I agree with you.

I'm not aware that they can be separated like that. The threads of reality are the lock, regardless of the shape they form.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm not aware that they can be separated like that. The threads of reality are the lock, regardless of the shape they form.

I like how this feeds into the fabric metaphor. All the threads are woven together. What would it even mean for there to be a second tapestry somewhere else? If the Snarl is tangled up threads of reality, it's probably trapped in its own tapestry and the Gods could just abandon it for the tapestry without a Snarl. Except they haven't, so there isn't a second tapestry, so no matter how many worlds they build they can't have one that isn't connected to the Snarl because there's only one tapestry.

Or I think too much.

[brian 333]

There is one prime material plane which serves as the prison. Whether there is one planet or millions, one civilization or millions, the rifts are happening here.

If they were happening in the Spindrift Belt, Roy Gravitybelt and the Order of the Rocket would be flying from asteroid to asteroid trying to destroy Lord Xykon the Spelljammer captain as he seeks to wield the ultimate cosmic power of the rifts to conquer Planet X.

Okay, now I have a fanfiction to write. I'll have to make Elan the Damsel In Distress, who is always being captured by Lord Xykon who seeks to have his way with Elan, only to be soothed by Elan's songs allowing Roy to rescue him just after the cliffhanger at the end of each episode.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why didn't the gods create two worlds at once?
Because it wouldn't fit the story the author wanted to tell.

[Fyraltari]

The Snarl destroys all of the Material Plane every time it's released. Whether it escapes by itself a=or the gods blow up the planet pre-emptively to collect the souls of the still-living doesn't change that.

Then the Gods wait for the Snarl to calm down before retrapping it. Having two planets wouldn't change anything. More stuff in the Material just means more stuff for the Snarl to destroy and a longer wait before the next rebuilding.

[hroþila]

Why didn't the gods create two worlds at once?
Because it wouldn't fit the story the author wanted to tell.
Can we not

[KorvinStarmast]

Can we not I am not wrong, but perhaps I should have included this link.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html

Beyond that, the literary conventions of how pantheons work, which informs the cosmology of OotS world, are grounded in stories told for millenia by people who live in a single world, all of which take us back to when metaphysics was a thing and astrophysics wasn't even ideated.

In other words, that's the kind of story that's being told here, a story where there is one world.

I wish I could do like geocities websites used to do and have that bolded text flash on and off in alternating colors.

For the OP: see also this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html), that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), and the other (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html).

See also why the original James Bond stories, by Ian Fleming, did not include a protagonist with three arms.

If you want to respond to that point, though, there are two strips which offer some interesting variations on what the assumptions are

This One (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html)and That One (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html).

But we get a hint that even the deities are not aware of that other world, since They Didn't Make It (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html).

[Peelee]

I
I wish I could do like geocities websites used to do and have that bolded text flash on and off in alternating colors.

Geocities allowed that. Geocities also went the way of the dodo. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

That's one step closer to replicating MySpace, though.

[KorvinStarmast]

Geocities allowed that. Geocities also went the way of the dodo. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. I must admit, they did hurt my eyes on many occasions.

[gbaji]

There is one prime material plane which serves as the prison. Whether there is one planet or millions, one civilization or millions, the rifts are happening here.

If they were happening in the Spindrift Belt, Roy Gravitybelt and the Order of the Rocket would be flying from asteroid to asteroid trying to destroy Lord Xykon the Spelljammer captain as he seeks to wield the ultimate cosmic power of the rifts to conquer Planet X.

Okay, now I have a fanfiction to write. I'll have to make Elan the Damsel In Distress, who is always being captured by Lord Xykon who seeks to have his way with Elan, only to be soothed by Elan's songs allowing Roy to rescue him just after the cliffhanger at the end of each episode.

This is kind of the point right here. The actual creative energy that the gods use to create everything that is the "prime material plane" is made up of the very threads that the snarl is part of. They have learned how to weave those threads such that the resulting creation also serves to hold the snarl itself (or maybe just its ability to do stuff) at bay. But yeah, the snarl is more or less "behind" everything that is created on the prime material plane. You create more planets, and that's just more stuff that is holding the snarl back, any part of which could weaken and become a rift, allowing the snarl back out.

It's just easier to conceptualize this as a single planet, with the snarl held "inside" the planet, and holes appearing on the surface of said planet. What we're really thinking about is more or less a 5th dimensional construct, trapped in a 4 dimensional space, on a 3 dimensional planet, represented in a 2 dimensional format (a web comic). Which is hard to conceptualize, let alone visualize. So... "It's trapped inside the planet" becomes a simple way to model it.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think we can safely say that the gods did not create multiple worlds at once, for REASONS. Important reasons! Totally REAL reasons, trust me!

There. I'm glad that's settled! Now move along... :smallamused:

[Ruck]

Why didn't the gods create two worlds at once?
Because it wouldn't fit the story the author wanted to tell.


I think we can safely say that the gods did not create multiple worlds at once, for REASONS. Important reasons! Totally REAL reasons, trust me!

There. I'm glad that's settled! Now move along... :smallamused:

Honestly, in-universe, "Because they can't" works just fine for me.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honestly, in-universe, "Because they can't" works just fine for me. It works fine for me also. From the crayon strips in Azure City, it was all they could do, initially, to contain the Snarl that their {various negative things} created in the first place.

[urbanwolf]

Maybe they have made mutiple worlds. A space themed one where everygod had its own platelet, or something like "The Little Price". Could be the the prison was weaker, or a high science cord lead to less worship. Maybe it was just boring, but with all the things we know they tried and the fact that there were billions of world graves it is likely they came up with some weird ones. Like cyberpunk Dinosaurs verse Aliens.

[Duiker]

I have two responses:

1) if the Pantheons each could have created their own worlds, then there'd be no Snarl at all.
2) every additional world would mean another opportunity for a Snarl. Two worlds, now you have two Snarls.

I can't decide whether or not those responses contradict each other.

[brian 333]

It just occurred to me that The Snarl is not a creature trapped inside the planet. It is the planet.

The threads from which the world is created are the threads of The Snarl.

Assume a home-made sweater, knitted from a single ball of yarn. The sweater after a while begins to fray, so the knitter(s) pull the thread and the sweater un-knits and becomes a ball of yarn again. This thread can then be re-knitted into another sweater. If left too long ant the frayed spots become holes, the sweater could unravel on its own into a big pile of broken strands of yarn that must be untangled before they can be used.

So, The Snarl is not a distinct entity from the world. It is what a frayed world that falls apart becomes when the gods fight over it. The world is what The Snarl becomes when the yarn of reality is knitted into a pattern.

Order composed of, and imposed upon, Chaos.

[KorvinStarmast]

It just occurred to me that The Snarl is not a creature trapped inside the planet. It is the planet.

The threads from which the world is created are the threads of The Snarl.

Assume a home-made sweater, knitted from a single ball of yarn. The sweater after a while begins to fray, so the knitter(s) pull the thread and the sweater un-knits and becomes a ball of yarn again. This thread can then be re-knitted into another sweater. If left too long ant the frayed spots become holes, the sweater could unravel on its own into a big pile of broken strands of yarn that must be untangled before they can be used.

So, The Snarl is not a distinct entity from the world. It is what a frayed world that falls apart becomes when the gods fight over it. The world is what The Snarl becomes when the yarn of reality is knitted into a pattern.

Order composed of, and imposed upon, Chaos. The sweater ate grandma (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) at the sewing circle while she was knitting it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html), so her friends had to drop their knitting and deal with it.
Non concurrence with this musing.

[Ionathus]

From what Thor says of the Astral/Outer Planes, I get the impression that the "mortal realm" is the only area that the gods can create mortals, and they can't change that framework, so therefore they don't really have a place for a "second world."

I see the mortal realm in OotSverse as a large soup pot (bear with me here). Say you're cooking potato leek soup in a big pot, and every couple thousand years your creepy downstairs neighbor comes upstairs and eats everything in the pot and you have to start over again. You might be tempted to cook chili as well, as a decoy or a safeguard or whatever...but you only own the one pot. You can try to cook two soups, but it's all going to mush together into one homogenous pot. So now you're just making chili-potato-leek soup (sounds kinda yummy, actually) in that single pot again and the whole thing's still in danger.

For whatever metaphysical reason, the gods only have 1 working space to play in, and every time the Snarl gets out, it consumes everything in that space, no matter how many subdivisions.

[KorvinStarmast]

I see the mortal realm in OotSverse as a large soup pot (bear with me here). Say you're cooking potato leek soup in a big pot, and every couple thousand years your creepy downstairs neighbor comes upstairs and eats everything in the pot and you have to start over again. You might be tempted to cook chili as well, as a decoy or a safeguard or whatever...but you only own the one pot. You can try to cook two soups, but it's all going to mush together into one homogenous pot. So now you're just making chili-potato-leek soup (sounds kinda yummy, actually) in that single pot again and the whole thing's still in danger. Now we know what was in Belkar's soup. :smallsmile:

For whatever metaphysical reason, the gods only have 1 working space to play in, and every time the Snarl gets out, it consumes everything in that space, no matter how many subdivisions. Which is an interesting variation on Sysiphus rolling that rock up the hill, only to have it roll back down again ... and ain't it funny that it was the Greekishlooking pantheon that got consumed by the Snarl? :smallconfused:

[brian 333]

The sweater ate grandma (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) at the sewing circle while she was knitting it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html), so her friends had to drop their knitting and deal with it.
Non concurrence with this musing.

Grandma and her friends started arguing over the sweater and things got out of hand. Then the sweater became sentient...

Oh, the Horror!

It was supposed to be warm and fuzzy! Now it's all itchy and not hypoallergenic at all.

[gbaji]

The sweater analogy is a good one. I think what a lot of folks are missing is that the gods aren't really "creating" anything. They are "crafting" the world. Basically, the prime material plane contains within it a big pile of "stuff" (creative energy), that the gods can manipulate and turn into "physical reality". The very first time the gods discovered this plane, and its ability to be shaped into a physcal reality, there were four quiddities of gods, and they used their quiddities to manipulate the raw materials into various shapes, and then wove them into a world. That's what created the snarl though, because they fought over their collective creation.

That's ultimately the core problem with the colors though. The snarl was created with all four, but the gods can now only manipulate this creative energy using just three colors. So anything they create is "weaker" than the snarl itself. Also, the snarl kinda has its own self sustaining reality, while everything else created in the prime material plane can be created/destroyed by the gods (they made it, they can destroy it). I suppose to address the OP, I don't think it's possible for the gods to create one thing "over here" just to enclose the snarl, and the other things "over there" that don't have any snarl connected with them.

Not sure how or why, but it doesn't seem like whatever rules govern creation allows that. And again, I suspect a fair amount of this is that the plane itself is a bit conceptual. One can argue that "space" (meaning like 3 dimensions of space) doesn't exist there until the gods create it first. So it's not like you can build some reality in one corner, and a separate reality somewhere else. The moment you start building anything inside the plane, you are interacting with stuff the snarl is adjacent to. It's all one big conceptual "pile" of raw materials, and the snarl is well, snarled up, within it all.

Woven into the yarn, you might say.

[KorvinStarmast]

Grandma and her friends started arguing over the sweater and things got out of hand. Then the sweater became sentient...

Oh, the Horror! The Arkham Sweater, perhaps. :smalleek:

The sweater analogy is a good one. I think what a lot of folks are missing is that the gods aren't really "creating" anything. They are "crafting" the world. Basically, the prime material plane contains within it a big pile of "stuff" (creative energy), that the gods can manipulate and turn into "physical reality". The very first time the gods discovered this plane, and its ability to be shaped into a physcal reality, there were four quiddities of gods, and they used their quiddities to manipulate the raw materials into various shapes, and then wove them into a world. That's what created the snarl though, because they fought over their collective creation.

That's ultimately the core problem with the colors though. The snarl was created with all four, but the gods can now only manipulate this creative energy using just three colors. So anything they create is "weaker" than the snarl itself. Also, the snarl kinda has its own self sustaining reality, while everything else created in the prime material plane can be created/destroyed by the gods (they made it, they can destroy it). I suppose to address the OP, I don't think it's possible for the gods to create one thing "over here" just to enclose the snarl, and the other things "over there" that don't have any snarl connected with them.

Not sure how or why, but it doesn't seem like whatever rules govern creation allows that. And again, I suspect a fair amount of this is that the plane itself is a bit conceptual. One can argue that "space" (meaning like 3 dimensions of space) doesn't exist there until the gods create it first. So it's not like you can build some reality in one corner, and a separate reality somewhere else. The moment you start building anything inside the plane, you are interacting with stuff the snarl is adjacent to. It's all one big conceptual "pile" of raw materials, and the snarl is well, snarled up, within it all.

Woven into the yarn, you might say. And then there's the blatant visual cue from strip 1190's first three panels. :smallbiggrin:

[StragaSevera]

Ok. We cannot create many _worlds_. But we can create _planes_.
Why didn't gods just relocate all mortals to a real-world-like plane and leave the actual material world barren, to remake when nessesary?
(And no, the doylist answer "because it's better for a story" does not work for me).

[Kish]

How about the answer: The gods are not omnipotent and no matter what form their creation takes, whatever terms you use to describe it, the Snarl will either be inside it (and thus able to break out and eat mortals) or uncontained?

[StragaSevera]

How about the answer: The gods are not omnipotent and no matter what form their creation takes, whatever terms you use to describe it, the Snarl will either be inside it (and thus able to break out and eat mortals) or uncontained?

We know that the Outer Planes are not affected when gods remake world (for example, Durkon wants his mother to be plane-shifted in case of emergency). So, there is a way to save some sentients from Snarl, at least temporarely.

[Peelee]

We know that the Outer Planes are not affected when gods remake world (for example, Durkon wants his mother to be plane-shifted in case of emergency). So, there is a way to save some sentients from Snarl, at least temporarely.

Because souls can only be created on the Material Plane, why not. There, now the prime plane is the only possible place for the world.

[Kish]

We know that the Outer Planes are not affected when gods remake world (for example, Durkon wants his mother to be plane-shifted in case of emergency). So, there is a way to save some sentients from Snarl, at least temporarely.
Very temporarily. High-level adventurers can travel there because they can use magic to survive the generally lethal traits of the outer planes. However, what are you proposing, now? That all the gods leave the Prime Material Plane to the Snarl and agree that their next mortals will universally lack claustrophobia or any need to breathe so that they can set up a realm for them on the Elemental Plane of Earth, or that the gods stick mortals in said Elemental Plane for half an hour while the Snarl rampages and gets recontained instead of taking those mortals to their respective afterlives? One is impractical*, the other complicated and, from the point of view of gods for whom mortals will spend time statistically equal to 100% of their existences in the afterlife anyway, almost pointless.

(This is all assuming the Snarl is unable to affect any plane except the Prime Material Plane, which is implied by their inability to reach the gods' homes without help from the Plan, but not, to my knowledge, stated.)

*I also find myself wondering, if mortals were created to be residents of the Elemental Plane of Earth, would they still go to afterlives at all? Or would they, as Celia will if she ever dies, automatically dissipate into the Plane, meaning that Option 1 would be mass divine suicide by starvation as suddenly the gods would no longer receive any Dedications ever again?

[gbaji]

Ok. We cannot create many _worlds_. But we can create _planes_.
Why didn't gods just relocate all mortals to a real-world-like plane and leave the actual material world barren, to remake when nessesary?
(And no, the doylist answer "because it's better for a story" does not work for me).

Firstly, I don't think the gods can actually create planes. They seem to exist and be a natural feature of the oots universe.

It's kinda tap danced around in the comic (especially with actual statements about folks planeshifting to escape the destruction of the world), but my headcannon is that all "mortal beings" are actually created out of the "stuff" that makes up the PMP. They aren't outsiders or elementals or whatever. They don't exist naturally in the other planes. They can travel there via magic, but they're still creations of the energy/whatever of the PMP.

My cosmological guess is that if the gods destroy the PMP (well, really the structure/pattern/rules of the energies contained within) it also "destroys" anything created using those energies. Not immediately, and not for things physically located elsewhere, but the "creative force" that existss in the PMP and allows for the creation of those mortal beings ceases to exist. Those that already have form and are physically elsewhere will continue (until they die/fade away/whatever), but if I were creating this universe, I'd say that no new creatures of those types could be born. The very process of soul creation, life energy, etc, doesn't exist. I mean, there must be something the gods do during world creation that determines what "humans", "elves", and "dwarves" are and that they exist instead of say sentient snacks.

[brian 333]

Ok. We cannot create many _worlds_. But we can create _planes_.
Why didn't gods just relocate all mortals to a real-world-like plane and leave the actual material world barren, to remake when nessesary?
(And no, the doylist answer "because it's better for a story" does not work for me).

The outer planes are made of ideas. These ideas are insubstantial. Like light, perhaps, of a variety of wavelengths.

The inner planes are made of single, or perhaps two, elements.

Any place that is composed of all of the elements and ideas would be The Prime Material, no matter where you put it.

I theorize that it is only the Prime that can grow new souls. The Elemental planes can grow new bodies, but the being dies and leaves no mortal soul behind. Beings which are created on the outer planes also cease to exist when killed. Neither elemental nor any other outsider can nourish deities or fuel the outer planes after they die: only mortal souls from the Prime can do that.

[StragaSevera]

Because souls can only be created on the Material Plane, why not. There, now the prime plane is the only possible place for the world.
Great, then create them on Material Plane, immediately Plane Shift them ;-)


I theorize that it is only the Prime that can grow new souls.
But what would happen if, for example, two dwarven adventurers go to the Elemental Plane of Earth, fall in love there and have a baby - all while not visiting the Material Plane? Will the baby have no soul?

[Peelee]

Great, then create them on Material Plane, immediately Plane Shift them ;-)

Non-interference once created. :smallamused:

[brian 333]

Great, then create them on Material Plane, immediately Plane Shift them ;-)

That's Durkon's plan for his son's survival.


But what would happen if, for example, two dwarven adventurers go to the Elemental Plane of Earth, fall in love there and have a baby - all while not visiting the Material Plane? Will the baby have no soul?

There are more 'depends' there than in a geriatric care facility.

Assuming that the parents have the ability to conceive in such a hostile environment, the pregnancy may fail due to a lack of proper nutrition because magical sustenance would be required. ("Every time I kill a ground hog it turns into a pile of dirt!")

Assuming a child could be conceived and carried to term it would need 18 years of food imported from the Prime to mature to the point it could begin an adventuring career, and however many more years until it could magically sustain itself.

And all of that depends on if a child could even grow up on another plane which, as we see with Eric, may take much longer, or may even be impossible.

[Peelee]

There are more 'depends' there than in a geriatric care facility.

Actually, why even bother with possibilities? All planes except the Prime act as natural (or supernatural or extraordinary) contraceptives. No makin' babies with souls out there. Only soul-less extraplanar creatures can do it. Boom, done.

[RatElemental]

With the billions of realities the gods have done they probably have done at least one sci-fi setting with multiple planets. But as mentioned, those multiple planets are all part of the same "world" and thus are all subject to the snarl breaking free.



And all of that depends on if a child could even grow up on another plane which, as we see with Eric, may take much longer, or may even be impossible.

I think that has more to do with Eric being dead than being on another plane.

[brian 333]

I think that has more to do with Eric being dead than being on another plane.

Probably correct. However, elementals can create apparently living bodies, while other outsiders require existing souls to create more of their kind. Neither kind can create new souls.

The only place where we find bodies and souls together is the Prime Material Plane, and it is also the only place where new souls appear to be born.

(Yes, Nergall created a negative energy spirit, but how? By tormenting an existing soul, draining it of every memory and feeling until it was a shell, immersing it in negative energy until it was filled with nothing else, then dropping it into Durkon? Or something like that.)

[Ruck]

(Yes, Nergall created a negative energy spirit, but how? By tormenting an existing soul, draining it of every memory and feeling until it was a shell, immersing it in negative energy until it was filled with nothing else, then dropping it into Durkon? Or something like that.)

Don't know, but I don't think negative energy spirits are souls-- or there's any reason to assume the process has to do with existing souls-- and Hel created the vampire spirit that inhabited Durkon's body, not Nergal.

[brian 333]

Don't know, but I don't think negative energy spirits are souls-- or there's any reason to assume the process has to do with existing souls-- and Hel created the vampire spirit that inhabited Durkon's body, not Nergal.

Fair enough. I suppose I put too much emphasis on "Nergal's snake may have sired you," and not enough on "but your dark spirit was birthed in my hall."

Either way, the question remains, how was this birthing arranged? Was the negative energy spirit created as a completely new being? Or was it made from recycled material?

The question is not answerable, so speculate however you like. You can't be wrong!

[Ruck]

Fair enough. I suppose I put too much emphasis on "Nergal's snake may have sired you," and not enough on "but your dark spirit was birthed in my hall."

Yeah, "Nergal's snake" is Malack. Malack turned Durkon. But Hel is in charge of creating vampire spirits in the Northern Pantheon. I believe there's a post by Rich that expands on this.


Either way, the question remains, how was this birthing arranged? Was the negative energy spirit created as a completely new being? Or was it made from recycled material?

I don't have an interesting answer to that one. I mean, where do souls come from?

[Tzardok]

No idea wether it's the same in OOTS' Version of the Great Wheel, but in the "canon" Great Wheel they form on the Positive Energy Plane and then go to other planes to be born.

[StragaSevera]

Non-interference once created.
Free will? Great! Put hundred-meters-tall signs telling people "This reality plane can be destroyed at any second by gods, to get to the Mortal Plane (a custom plane tailored for the survival of mortals) that would not be destroyed, come into this portal". That way the only people who would die when Snarl emerges would be people who choose to do it voluntarely, which is ethical.


Actually, why even bother with possibilities? All planes except the Prime act as natural (or supernatural or extraordinary) contraceptives. No makin' babies with souls out there. Only soul-less extraplanar creatures can do it. Boom, done.
The gods are so weak that they cannot create "contraception-free zones"? Still great! Add portals on the Mortal Plane that lead to Material Plane, so people can travel to the Material Plane, have sex, then come back. That way, in case of emergency destruction of Material Plane, only the small amount of sentients would be destroyed, and most of them would live.

You see, there are solutions for all of these problems if you think hard enough. That's why I personally believe that the gods mostly just don't care about survival of the mortals, rather than unable to do it. We know from the comic that gods don't care for well-being of goblins, why humans/dwarves/elves should be any different?

[OvisCaedo]

And I personally believe that if the gods have been doing this for millions(?) of worlds, the most likely reason for them not trying these methods is that they wouldn't work.

[Kish]

1) I do not think Thor's "I remember everyone who has ever worshiped me" was supposed to be simply insincere expression of feelings he doesn't actually have.
2) It does not appear to me that you're actually engaging with reasons why the gods cannot just somehow expand their realm of influence beyond that the Snarl can affect; rather, you and Peelee are trading back and forth "I can bat away anything you say." (For the most obvious example, you're now proposing, not that the gods hive out a residence for mortals on an Outer Plane, but that the gods can somehow make a plane called the "Mortal Plane" which is like the Prime Material Plane except for not being vulnerable to the Snarl--which is literal godmoding and if the gods could do that the Snarl would never have been a threat to them. I already addressed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25802209&postcount=30) that, and you quoted me but just changed the subject to the Outer Planes, which, as Thor explained, are ideas that were so powerful they became places, and no, "We really hate the Snarl killing our worshipers" doesn't qualify as an idea that powerful; rather, it would probably amount to either "resistance is futile" or "fight the good fight" depending on the tone in which the individual god stated it. And even if it did somehow form a new Outer Plane it's at least as likely to translate to a plane where all worshipers are constantly killed by monsters resembling the Snarl as anything friendlier. Sure, the gods can make a place they call the "Mortal Plane" if they want, and when rifts appear in the middle of it, because all they've done is expand the radius of the Prime Material Plane and give the inhabited part of it a stupid name, they'll have no grounds to be surprised.)

[Tubercular Ox]

You see, there are solutions for all of these problems if you think hard enough. That's why I personally believe that the gods mostly just don't care about survival of the mortals, rather than unable to do it. We know from the comic that gods don't care for well-being of goblins, why humans/dwarves/elves should be any different?

What if the population is part of the Snarl's prison? Just mumble something about people, like the rest of the planet, existing in multiple coterminous dimensions (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html). Now a significant number of them have to stay on the planet or the Snarl is freed. And, because they're a part of the lock, evacuating them unlocks the Snarl after enough of them have left. They have to be cashed out or else some won't make it in time and get eaten anyways.

[brian 333]

Free will? Great! Put hundred-meters-tall signs telling people "This reality plane can be destroyed at any second by gods, to get to the Mortal Plane (a custom plane tailored for the survival of mortals) that would not be destroyed, come into this portal". That way the only people who would die when Snarl emerges would be people who choose to do it voluntarely, which is ethical.


The gods are so weak that they cannot create "contraception-free zones"? Still great! Add portals on the Mortal Plane that lead to Material Plane, so people can travel to the Material Plane, have sex, then come back. That way, in case of emergency destruction of Material Plane, only the small amount of sentients would be destroyed, and most of them would live.

You see, there are solutions for all of these problems if you think hard enough. That's why I personally believe that the gods mostly just don't care about survival of the mortals, rather than unable to do it. We know from the comic that gods don't care for well-being of goblins, why humans/dwarves/elves should be any different?

These solutions rely upon the universe working in a way which accommodates them. For our universe, one need only create antigravity and suddenly travel between stars becomes trivially simple. Does our universe allow antigravity on any but a theoretical level, and is it possible to create a portable power supply with whatever fuel it requires to make it run on a vessel that can house living humans? Ah, there is the problem.

Souls are possibly created on other planes than the prime: we don't know. The conditions required to create them is similarly unknown. But when you plant corn, you don't ask it where it would like to be planted and if it would like to be harvested. You plant it where you will get the best yields and harvest it when it is ready, and the only moral consideration is to grow it in a manner which insures future harvests so your children eat next year and the next, ad infinitum.

[gbaji]

The gods are so weak that they cannot create "contraception-free zones"? Still great! Add portals on the Mortal Plane that lead to Material Plane, so people can travel to the Material Plane, have sex, then come back. That way, in case of emergency destruction of Material Plane, only the small amount of sentients would be destroyed, and most of them would live.

Ok. What then? It takes centuries for the Snarl to calm down to where the gods can create anything in the Prime Material Plans once it breaks free. Not clear how many centuries, but that was the unit used to describe this, so "longer than a mortal lifespan". The last generation is still the last generation using this model. The gods haven't actually bought themselves anything with this. All they've accomplished is to create a lot more complexity, arguably slow down the overall population growth rate of mortals (which reduces the "value" to them for creating the world in the first place), and every single being created still dies. You just buy more of them a single life spans more time at the end. Given that the cost is fewer total mortals that go through the birth/life/death cycle during that worlds existence (I'm going to assume that having to travel to another plane to get pregnant is going to have some impact on overall birth rates), the whole thing is a net negative.

It's already possible for some mortals to escape the destruction of the world via plane shift. But despite this, any of them actually surviving to see the creation of the next world is incredibly rare (we've seen one, and it's not clear if that was just a joke strip). So it's not like this isn't possible. There's just no value to the gods for doing this on a large scale. And sure, we could say that this means that they don't care, I suppose. But adding massive complexity (and significantly negatively impacting all of the mortals that they do create) just to add a few decades to the total period that mortals exist onto the end of a few thousand years, just seems like a massive waste of time and effort.

[Ruck]

No idea wether it's the same in OOTS' Version of the Great Wheel, but in the "canon" Great Wheel they form on the Positive Energy Plane and then go to other planes to be born.

Makes sense to me, and I'd assume the same but from the Negative Energy Plane for vampire spirits.

[Tzardok]

Vampire spirits are probably more "created" instead of "forming from 'natural' processes", but what do I know? Could just as well be that every pantheon in OOTS also has one god with the job of handcrafting souls for their third of the world. Sounds like an exhausting and thankless job.


... If a goblin gets vampirezed, who makes the vampire spirit? The Dark One? Can he even do that or does that fall out of his area of competency? If not, who else? Are goblins maybe immune to vampirism because nobody makes spirits for them?

[Kish]

A hundred gold says that in the rather unlikely event that, in the comic, a goblin is ever subjected to the process that turns a dwarf into a vampire, it will turn that goblin into a vampire.

[Tubercular Ox]

... If a goblin gets vampirezed, who makes the vampire spirit? The Dark One? Can he even do that or does that fall out of his area of competency? If not, who else? Are goblins maybe immune to vampirism because nobody makes spirits for them?

I think Hel, Thor, and Loki quibbling over dwarf souls is the model instead of the exception. Hel got to make Durkon's vampire spirit because she asked for it. If her argument wasn't ironclad, she stomped her foot. If it was ironclad, she still had the option to let someone else do it if it pleased her.

For The Dark One, people are wary of a two-color Snarl. So when something happens that might interest The Dark One, like a goblin being vampirized, there's a little Mexican standoff while everyone waits to see if The Dark One is going to do something about it, and if he doesn't someone sneaks in and makes sure the job is done.

I like this theory because it gives Rich the power to reverse course on any decision about how things work by having a single cutaway panel gag showing two gods arguing.

[hroþila]

Hel got to make Vamp Durkon's spirit because Durkon fell under her purview either as a dwarf, as a northerner, or both. Presumably, Nergal created all vampiric spirits in the western continent. I think the goblinoid vampire is an interesting hypothetical. I would imagine creating that vampire spirit would be the responsibility of either the Dark One or whoever is responsible for vampire spirits in the continent where the goblinoid in question originated from.

[Kish]

Hel is the god of death for the Northern pantheon, so she makes the vampire spirits for the Northern pantheon. Nergal is the god of death for the Western pantheon, so he makes the vampire spirits for the Western pantheon. The Dark One is the god of death for the goblin pantheon (along with everything else), so presumably he makes the vampire spirits for any vampirized goblins--so, certainly not immunity to vampirism, but it wouldn't be at all surprising if a little-known fact of the setting is that a goblinoid who gets turned into a vampire invariably continues acting exactly the same as they did in life, unlike dwarf, lizardfolk, and human vampires.

Now, who in the all-True Neutral pantheon of the Southern Gods makes vampire spirits, that's currently somewhat mysterious; the gods are always referred to with their species names, not as, e.g., "Dog, god of death." (With the answer certainly not being "Southerners are immune to vampirism.")

[Tzardok]

I would disagree with the idea that the Dark One is God of Everything in his pantheon. A pantheon doesn't have to cover everything imaginable in their portfolios, and practically all "I'm the singular god of my people" deities in D&D had limited portfolios. In fact, the only God of Everything deity that ever appeared in 3.x was Taiia, an example monotheist goddess who expilicitly was "the one and only" with no gods beside her (and maybe Brama in 2e in the Hindu pantheon, but nobody worshipped him directly anyway).

We don't know what portofolio the Dark One actually has beyond goblinoids. We can be pretty certain that he's a god of war, and death is close to that and therefore a possibility. But it's not certain.
What I'm pretty sure of is that the Dark One doesn't actually has power over, for example, nature or storms or fertility or peace or light or etc.

[RatElemental]

Ao was kind of a god of everything. He was basically the boss's boss as far as the gods of Faerun were concerned, I believe he even came down and had to fix their mess when they spellplagued it up.

No one worships him though, mostly because he doesn't accept you as a worshiper even if you do, so you end up in the wall.

[Tzardok]

Ao isn't a god at all. He's what D&D calls an overdeity. Another example of that is the Highgod of Dragonlance.

[Lumix19]

Isn't this already the case?

It's explained in 275 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) that the world exists across a number of coterminous planes to prevent the Snarl escaping. The world the heroes are (un)lucky enough to live on is actually the "padlock on the jailhouse door of reality". I interpreted that to mean there are an arbitrary (or infinite?) number of planes with identical planets situated alongside the Prime Material plane.

However, only the planet on the Prime Material plane (as the point of weakness in the Snarl's prison) is actually prone to fraying. Presumably because the padlock is the weakest point in the prison's structure.

Kind of raises the question about whether anyone actually lives on those planets, but I assume so.

Unless my interpretation of that section is completely off.

[Tzardok]

I think that section references those planes that are coterminous to the Material in 3.5: the Shadow, the Astral and the Ethereal. It's probably only there to explain why the Snarl doesn't just shift sideways to escape. I could be completely wrong with that of course.

[Kish]

Isn't this already the case?

It's explained in 275 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) that the world exists across a number of coterminous planes to prevent the Snarl escaping. The world the heroes are (un)lucky enough to live on is actually the "padlock on the jailhouse door of reality". I interpreted that to mean there are an arbitrary (or infinite?) number of planes with identical planets situated alongside the Prime Material plane.

However, only the planet on the Prime Material plane (as the point of weakness in the Snarl's prison) is actually prone to fraying. Presumably because the padlock is the weakest point in the prison's structure.

Kind of raises the question about whether anyone actually lives on those planets, but I assume so.

Unless my interpretation of that section is completely off.
I think it is, yes. That strip references one planet, in multiple coterminous dimensions, so that the Snarl cannot simply tear it apart from within immediately. There's no indication of multiple planets, nor of any planets that are not, as Vaarsuvius put it, "the padlock on the jailhouse door of reality." It doesn't say "the threat the Snarl poses to mortals is wholly arbitrary and only exists because the gods didn't choose to exert a trivial effort to prevent it."

[hroþila]

We do know there are multiple planets in the prime material plane, they are shown at the end of HtPGHS. I wouldn't trust the lore of the Sapphire Guard to be accurate in the fine details.

[gbaji]

Isn't this already the case?

It's explained in 275 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) that the world exists across a number of coterminous planes to prevent the Snarl escaping.


I think that section references those planes that are coterminous to the Material in 3.5: the Shadow, the Astral and the Ethereal. It's probably only there to explain why the Snarl doesn't just shift sideways to escape. I could be completely wrong with that of course.

I agree. I'll also note that the actual phrase is "multiple coterminus dimensions". Not "planes". In game terms, a plane suggests some sort of alternate reality/world/whatever. A dimension, on the other hand, could be some analog to physical dimensions we experience in our world, and/or other dimensions (ethereal, shadow, astral, whatever) that exist in D&D universes. But yeah, dimensions seems to refer to the more standard definition here (different aspects/angles of the reality one is physically in), so it's a stretch to interpret that to mean that there are alternate worlds present in the prime material plane that we just don't know about somewhere.

We do have evidence of another plane/world though. But I don't think it's one that the gods created (since they don't seem to know anything about it). I suspect it will become relevant to the story, but not in a "there are other worlds that are safe from the snarl" kind of way.

[Diachronos]

My guess is that, by the time the gods start weaving together a new world and a new prison for the Snarl, they just don't have enough strength to create two entire worlds. Keep in mind that whatever souls they harvest before the end of one world have to sustain them until the Snarl cools down enough for them to craft a new prison, and creating the prison itself and its mortal inhabitants probably takes a lot of energy (and therefore consumes a lot of soul-power) on top of that.

Sure, if they had enough souls they might be able to do it. But with the worlds they do create and the fact that the gods need souls the same way mortals need food and water, acquiring enough souls to make that happen would probably require a significantly larger world than anything they've ever made before, and doing that might have a whole host of other problems (resources for mortals to survive, the gods' powers getting spread too thin among so many worshipers, increased potential for cracks to form in the Snarl's prison, etc).

[KorvinStarmast]

The Dark One is the god of death for the goblin pantheon (along with everything else), Perhaps he ought to delegate a bit more; task saturation can reduce one's effectiveness. :smallyuk:

@Diachronos: there's no free lunch. :smallsmile:

[Tubercular Ox]

Perhaps he ought to delegate a bit more; task saturation can reduce one's effectiveness. :smallyuk:

I've always been a bit uncomfortable with how having a pantheon jives with worshipping one god. Durkon worships Thor, but Thor's cult includes relationships with Loki and Odin. So does Durkon believe in Loki and Odin without worshipping them? If so, does he believe in the Twelve Gods? If so, is there a verb or adjective to distinguish Durkon's relationship with Odin and Loki from his relationship with the Twelve Gods? Durkon flippities Odin and Loki, but floppities the Twelve Gods, for example.

[Peelee]

I've always been a bit uncomfortable with how having a pantheon jives with worshipping one god. Durkon worships Thor, but Thor's cult includes relationships with Loki and Odin. So does Durkon believe in Loki and Odin without worshipping them? If so, does he believe in the Twelve Gods? If so, is there a verb or adjective to distinguish Durkon's relationship with Odin and Loki from his relationship with the Twelve Gods? Durkon flippities Odin and Loki, but floppities the Twelve Gods, for example.

I don't really understand the confusion here. Pretty much everyone believes in all the gods. They're demonstrably real. Not believing in them is like not believing in trees. The comic even goes into people who don't actively pray to gods with Roy's afterlife interview. It seems pretty cut and dry.

There is an adjective to distinguish Durkon's relationship eith Odin or Lorki from his relationship with the twelve gods. That adjective is "northern". He's a northerner, so anything that falls under the northern gods purview goes to them instead of the Southern or Western gods - eg, he gets turned into a vampire which the Northern god of death makes the vampire being for.

Other than that, his relationship between, say, Odin and Tiger are described as "not a cleric of them".

[Ruck]

I've always been a bit uncomfortable with how having a pantheon jives with worshipping one god. Durkon worships Thor, but Thor's cult includes relationships with Loki and Odin. So does Durkon believe in Loki and Odin without worshipping them? If so, does he believe in the Twelve Gods? If so, is there a verb or adjective to distinguish Durkon's relationship with Odin and Loki from his relationship with the Twelve Gods? Durkon flippities Odin and Loki, but floppities the Twelve Gods, for example.

"Believe in" as opposed to "worshipping" seems to work just fine for the distinction.

It's a world with tangible proof the gods exist. Presumably the large majority of people believe in their existence. Even Roy does, and he's not any kind of worshipper.

[Emberlily]

the fact that the various pantheons have their own political borders and can only exert direct non-clerical-spell influence within those borders, and the fact that the gods are (as mentioned) knowable entities you can theoretically actively talk to or meet and then talk to other people about in replicatable ways, means that there's not really any direct parallels to any earthly religious ideas that I'm aware of

I'm not sure if, say, Durkon "believing in" or not the other gods would be a good choice of words. I feel it's more a matter of like, just the relevance of a knowledge base? if you're very unlikely to ever leave the northern continent, there's little non-academic reason to learn anything about gods that will never have any effect on your continent compared to the ones that command the weather and such that's around you every day. I feel like an analogy might be made with knowledge of the legal code of various countries? Durkon as a lawyer-analogue would be trained in the "laws" of the northern continent but not have any pressing reason to have known anything about those of the south or west.

[Clistenes]

Isn't it implied that the gods have to hide in the Outer Planes every time the Snarl escapes, until it calms down and the can trap it again? It's the reason both the Dark One and Hel are at risk of perishing before the next world is created, they have to wait for a long time and they aren't prepared.

The Snarl probably destroys everything in the Prime Material Plane before it calms, so no second world is possible...

[Psyren]

OP - they can barely agree on one at a time enough to keep reality together and you want them to simultaneously make more than that? The far more likely result of the arguments that would cause would be eleventy more Snarls, not a bunch of perfectly safe and agreeable backups.

[Tubercular Ox]

Okay, so what about an elf who worships the elven god of knowledge? It's been revealed that elves worship the elven gods and some of the other western gods. Those are the gods she grew up with. She goes south to the sandy part of the continent. Her god is gone, they don't worship it there. Gods she grew up with are there, but so are gods she didn't grow up with, and if she asks around there are probably myths associated with the gods that connects them to each other, which she's never heard before, since she comes from a place where some of those gods aren't worshipped.

So some of these gods she can link to her own god through myth and story, and some she can't. She believes in all of them, because belief is objective in this setting. She only worships the elven god of knowledge, but there's this thing in the middle that I don't have a name for where a god participates in her god's cult without being worshipped by that cult.

Are we going to ramp into whether elves are western now? I'd rather just have a word for the relationship a person has with gods that are a part of their gods' mythos, something more than belief but less than worship.

[Emberlily]

there's academic english terms for similar-ish setups: henotheism and monolatry describe two different manifestations of "worshiping one god while believing in many others as well". I don't know if they include any verbs for the various aspects, but it's possible

I'm not sure there's much distinction between, for example, Durkon's lack of worship of Loki vs Durkon's lack of worship of Tiamat, aside from familiarity and the direct literal relationship between the gods themselves. in the religious discussion between Durkon and Malack, the pantheons are described like "families", and I believe during one of the crayon stories there's talk of a god's "clan" to describe a pantheon. but Durkon doesn't see Loki as any more or less real than Tiamat; just more directly relevant to his and his god's interests

[Ruck]

Okay, so what about an elf who worships the elven god of knowledge? It's been revealed that elves worship the elven gods and some of the other western gods. Those are the gods she grew up with. She goes south to the sandy part of the continent. Her god is gone, they don't worship it there.

What do you mean "gone"? The gods don't stop existing if you're out of their usual territory. Thor even got in a little trouble for helping out Durkon during the Battle of Azure City, outside of the territory where he's supposed to interfere.

With that in mind, I'm not sure how to interpret the rest of your post.


Are we going to ramp into whether elves are western now?

There's no "whether"; the elven territories have been firmly established as part of the western continent.

[Peelee]

Okay, so what about an elf who worships the elven god of knowledge? It's been revealed that elves worship the elven gods and some of the other western gods. Those are the gods she grew up with. She goes south to the sandy part of the continent. Her god is gone, they don't worship it there. Gods she grew up with are there, but so are gods she didn't grow up with, and if she asks around there are probably myths associated with the gods that connects them to each other, which she's never heard before, since she comes from a place where some of those gods aren't worshipped.

So some of these gods she can link to her own god through myth and story, and some she can't. She believes in all of them, because belief is objective in this setting. She only worships the elven god of knowledge, but there's this thing in the middle that I don't have a name for where a god participates in her god's cult without being worshipped by that cult.

Are we going to ramp into whether elves are western now? I'd rather just have a word for the relationship a person has with gods that are a part of their gods' mythos, something more than belief but less than worship.

I'm even more confused here. Durkon, who is northern and worships a northern god, has been in the Southern continent and in the Western continent, both without issue as to his deity and his spellcasting (which is dependent on his deity). At no point has there ever been a problem. What, exactly, is the issue here?

[Kish]

I suspect "come under" would fit for the term the ox is looking for. Vaarsuvius comes under the Western gods. Not being an imbecile, they know that the Gods of the South, West, and North all exist, as well as the Dark One. They are not particularly religious. But if they get drained by the High Priest of Hel, Nergal produces the negative energy spirit that inhabits their body, for whatever effect that has (probably negligible as Vaarsuvius, and thus probably Vampire Vaarsuvius as well, is not the religious type).

If "Roy comes under the Northern Gods" doesn't give the ox what he wants then I do not think anything in this story will.

[GreyTraveller]

Well clearly (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) there is some amount of worship spread across the various gods of a pantheon. I think it's probably true that Durkon, for example, has more reverence for Odin or Freya, for example, than he does for Marduk or Rooster.

[Tubercular Ox]

I suspect "come under" would fit for the term the ox is looking for. Vaarsuvius comes under the Western gods. Not being an imbecile, they know that the Gods of the South, West, and North all exist, as well as the Dark One. They are not particularly religious. But if they get drained by the High Priest of Hel, Nergal produces the negative energy spirit that inhabits their body, for whatever effect that has (probably negligible as Vaarsuvius, and thus probably Vampire Vaarsuvius as well, is not the religious type).


Yes, this is exactly what I'm after.


Well clearly (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) there is some amount of worship spread across the various gods of a pantheon.

In the real world I would say that Hel is worshipped as the taker of souls in Thor's religion, or if that were too strong I'd say Hel is believed to be the taker of souls in Thor's religion. But in Ootsworld Hel is not worshipped, so that sentence is out, and belief is defined in a way that includes the Twelve Gods, so that sentence is underspecified. I'm happy to say Hel comes under Thor's religion. Or maybe falls under.

But I want to be clear that Loki coming under Thor's religion has to include the belief that Loki sucks, as is taught by Thor's church to Thor's followers.

[Ruck]

Yes, this is exactly what I'm after.



In the real world I would say that Hel is worshipped as the taker of souls in Thor's religion, or if that were too strong I'd say Hel is believed to be the taker of souls in Thor's religion. But in Ootsworld Hel is not worshipped, so that sentence is out, and belief is defined in a way that includes the Twelve Gods, so that sentence is underspecified. I'm happy to say Hel comes under Thor's religion. Or maybe falls under.

But I want to be clear that Loki coming under Thor's religion has to include the belief that Loki sucks, as is taught by Thor's church to Thor's followers.

I'm a little unclear because "Loki coming under Thor's religion" seems to imply that Thor is at the top of the Northern Pantheon, which is not the case. Loki and Thor are of equal standing in the Northern Pantheon. Odin is head of the Northern Pantheon, but it's still not described as "Odin's religion," either.

[brian 333]

I think I see a misconception here, but I ask forgiveness in advance if I am mistaken.

Thor's religion includes belief in the existence of Loki, whose religion includes belief in Thor. Both include belief in Hel, but since she previously had no clerics she had no one to task with spreading her religion, and the associated belief in her extended family.

None of them claim the worship of the entire pantheon, nor do any of them deny the divinity of the others. The Northern deities have no single religion, they have one for each deity and demigod.

Thor's religion is specific to him and his followers, and sharing a combined belief system benefits all of them by having each deity's followers offer something to each deity in the family, even if only through active opposition.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think I see a misconception here, but I ask forgiveness in advance if I am mistaken.

Thor's religion includes belief in the existence of Loki, whose religion includes belief in Thor. Both include belief in Hel, but since she previously had no clerics she had no one to task with spreading her religion, and the associated belief in her extended family.

None of them claim the worship of the entire pantheon, nor do any of them deny the divinity of the others. The Northern deities have no single religion, they have one for each deity and demigod.

Thor's religion is specific to him and his followers, and sharing a combined belief system benefits all of them by having each deity's followers offer something to each deity in the family, even if only through active opposition.

Yes! And to contrast the negative case: No priest of Thor ever preaches to Sigdi and her friends about the fearful power of Nergal, only Hel. So if a priest of Nergal came to the dwarves, it would be an anonymous evil cleric, which is not on the same level as a priest of Loki, because Thor teaches that Loki sucks and Sigdi would know that.

[brian 333]

Yes! And to contrast the negative case: No priest of Thor ever preaches to Sigdi and her friends about the fearful power of Nergal, only Hel. So if a priest of Nergal came to the dwarves, it would be an anonymous evil cleric, which is not on the same level as a priest of Loki, because Thor teaches that Loki sucks and Sigdi would know that.

Yes, but any cleric of Loki would know that Loki loathes Nergal and his undead for lo, they are icky.

[Tubercular Ox]

Yes, but any cleric of Loki would know that Loki loathes Nergal and his undead for lo, they are icky.

I have been trying to resist using the word "lo" for days.

So if you want to help me again, how would you describe a follower of Thor's relationship with the goddess Hel, and how would you distinguish that relationship from the follower's relationship with Nergal? Dibs on the follower believing in both Hel and Nergal, and in the worshipper not worshipping Hel.

[Psyren]

I have been trying to resist using the word "lo" for days.

So if you want to help me again, how would you describe a follower of Thor's relationship with the goddess Hel, and how would you distinguish that relationship from the follower's relationship with Nergal? Dibs on the follower believing in both Hel and Nergal, and in the worshipper not worshipping Hel.

I think that depends on the cleric in question. Clerical knowledge outside of what they need to know for their own pantheon and its relationships doesn't seem to be that widespread. Durkon for instance, despite being very learned when it came to the Northern pantheon, knew very little (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) about the Western one. And Roy and "Durkon" (Greg) visited clerics all over Tinkertown with only one understanding how vampires actually worked (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html) - a fact which Greg was actually counting on. Even Durkon himself didn't know. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) So I would expect most Northern Clerics to not know much about Nergal until they meet a Western one, and even then most would be dependent on what that cleric tells them about their faith, with the truth of Nergal's wishes only coming out later. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html)

[brian 333]

I have been trying to resist using the word "lo" for days.

So if you want to help me again, how would you describe a follower of Thor's relationship with the goddess Hel, and how would you distinguish that relationship from the follower's relationship with Nergal? Dibs on the follower believing in both Hel and Nergal, and in the worshipper not worshipping Hel.

Followers of Thor believe in Hel's divinity, but they do not worship her, and the only dedication she gets is from those who die of disease or dishonor.

Followers of Thor likely do not know of Nergal, so he gets none of their belief, worship, or devotion.

[Psyren]

Nergal might get some Belief from outside his borders but I imagine that's about it.

[hroþila]

What's wrong with just saying "Loki and Thor belong to the same pantheon"?

[KorvinStarmast]

What's wrong with just saying "Loki and Thor belong to the same pantheon"? Nothing, but overthinking is a GitP and internet forum thing. :smallcool:

[Tubercular Ox]

What's wrong with just saying "Loki and Thor belong to the same pantheon"?

So I had a thought, like, a month ago. "Did V feel homesick when V came to the Western Continent?"

And the voices in my head said, "Why would V feel homesick?"

And I said, "Well, V may still worship the elven god of knowledge (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html), and it's been revealed that the elves worship a mixture of elven and non-elven gods, so the knowledge god's religion may have taught V that the knowledge god had relationships with non-elven gods of the western pantheon, and after adventuring for so long on the Northern and Southern continents, for the first time in a while, V would be seeing the worship of gods that V's religion says are in some sort of relationship with the god that V worships. V might have feelings for those gods similar to how Durkon feels about Loki, Hel, or Odin."

And that's ridiculous. It would be so much easier to say, "V may double-plus-believe in some of the Western gods because V worships the elven god of knowledge."

It wouldn't help at all to say that V's god and the western gods are in the same pantheon, because that doesn't capture why V might feel homesick, or how V might feel about the particular gods being worshipped.

Then I worried over the language so much it almost pushed the actual question out of my mind.

[woweedd]

So I had a thought, like, a month ago. "Did V feel homesick when V came to the Western Continent?"

And the voices in my head said, "Why would V feel homesick?"

And I said, "Well, V may still worship the elven god of knowledge (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html), and it's been revealed that the elves worship a mixture of elven and non-elven gods, so the knowledge god's religion may have taught V that the knowledge god had relationships with non-elven gods of the western pantheon, and after adventuring for so long on the Northern and Southern continents, for the first time in a while, V would be seeing the worship of gods that V's religion says are in some sort of relationship with the god that V worships. V might have feelings for those gods similar to how Durkon feels about Loki, Hel, or Odin."

And that's ridiculous. It would be so much easier to say, "V may double-plus-believe in some of the Western gods because V worships the elven god of knowledge."

It wouldn't help at all to say that V's god and the western gods are in the same pantheon, because that doesn't capture why V might feel homesick, or how V might feel about the particular gods being worshipped.

Then I worried over the language so much it almost pushed the actual question out of my mind.
I doubt V feels much of anything about the local gods. Have they ever struck you as an especially pious person?

[Tubercular Ox]

I doubt V feels much of anything about the local gods. Have they ever struck you as an especially pious person?

I once walked into a temple dedicated to one religion and found an altar to an entity from a completely different religion, a religion that is popular in the part of the world where I grew up but not in the part of the world I was visiting. I am not an especially pious person, but I noticed and I felt something.

But that's just one problem. The other problem is you don't have a word better than double-plus-believes to tell me that double-plus-believing probably doesn't matter to V because V's not pious enough.

[Psyren]

... If a goblin gets vampirezed, who makes the vampire spirit? The Dark One? Can he even do that or does that fall out of his area of competency? If not, who else? Are goblins maybe immune to vampirism because nobody makes spirits for them?

I imagine it's whoever makes goblin wights. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) Probably still Fenris, or its pegged to the reanimator (which would be Rat in Tsukiko's case.)

[Ruck]

The other problem is you don't have a word better than double-plus-believes to tell me that double-plus-believing probably doesn't matter to V because V's not pious enough.

I don't know why it needs to be better, since "double-plus-believing" is an assumption you made as part of a hypothesis, and "V is not especially pious" is an observation based on the evidence from the comic.

[Tzardok]

I imagine it's whoever makes goblin wights. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) Probably still Fenris, or its pegged to the reanimator (which would be Rat in Tsukiko's case.)

We can be pretty sure that wights don't work the same way as vampires:

Nothing that happens with vampires in this comic can be extrapolated to work similarly with other undead. All types of undead work differently, that's why they are different types in the first place. Xykon is still Xykon.
Link (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?p=17327934#post17327934)

[Psyren]

We can be pretty sure that wights don't work the same way as vampires:

Link (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?p=17327934#post17327934)

I'm not talking about liches though, and Hel appears to be the source (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html) of her Wights and Ghasts. So I do still believe some deity makes theirs.

[Tzardok]

I'm not talking about liches though, and Hel appears to be the source (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html) of her Wights and Ghasts. So I do still believe some deity makes theirs.

A) The quote was about undead in general. It states that you can't expect any other undead to work that way.
B) Your linked comic talks about Hel giving clerical power to a wight or ghast. That's about lesser undead becoming clerics, not about Hel making their souls or spirits or consciousnesses or whatever.

[Psyren]

A) The quote was about undead in general. It states that you can't expect any other undead to work that way.
B) Your linked comic talks about Hel giving clerical power to a wight or ghast. That's about lesser undead becoming clerics, not about Hel making their souls or spirits or consciousnesses or whatever.

Eh, I doubt she'd be bestowing clerical power on someone else's creations, but since we don't have a statement on how wights work one way or the other I'll leave it there.

[Tzardok]

Eh, I doubt she'd be bestowing clerical power on someone else's creations, but since we don't have a statement on how wights work one way or the other I'll leave it there.

1. Are we still talking about spirits, or do you mean "Hel wouldn't grant spells to a wight created a necromancer"? If the first, we don't know wether there are wight spirits anyway, and if the second, what does that matter?

2. In general, why does it matter who made the wight? If the wight says "I want to be a cleric of Hel" and takes the class, why should Hel say "I don't want you"? That's kinda like saying "Thor shouldn't bestow clerical power on Durkon unless he hand-crafted him himself".

[RatElemental]

Given that humans exist in all three major regions and are adherents of the Northern, Southern and Western pantheons, I'm thinking that (most) gods are quite happy to take followers of any theological origin. Unless for some reason humans were a committee creation of all the gods or something.

[Precure]

Because then there won't be a story.

[KorvinStarmast]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25796060&postcount=10
Well, there might be, but it would probably be a different story or a different kind of story.

Ao isn't a god at all. He's what D&D calls an overdeity. Another example of that is the Highgod of Dragonlance. AKA a DM. :smallbiggrin:

We do know there are multiple planets in the prime material plane, they are shown at the end of HtPGHS. The only folks who know that are those who purchased that supplement. For the On Line Strip, that isn't there. (But you can argue that this strip hints at it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html)).

[Beni-Kujaku]

AKA a DM. :smallbiggrin:

Not really, Ao is more like WotC. He makes the rules of the universe, but doesn't really care about singular events. The DM is more like the Luminous Being referenced in Faiths and Avatars

[Tzardok]

Do you mean in the Avatar novel series? And wasn't the Luminous Being Ao's boss there?

[Tubercular Ox]

Do you mean in the Avatar novel series? And wasn't the Luminous Being Ao's boss there?

Turtles all the way down, gods all the way up.

[Kish]

Whether Ao or the entity he addresses as Master represents Ed Greenwood, WotC, or the DM, is a matter of interpretation.

(I would favor Ao representing only Ed Greenwood, while his master is one of the others: Ed Greenwood's writing, like Ao, is limited to the Forgotten Realms, while the DM and the game company, like Ao's master, preside over many campaign settings.)

[Tzardok]

I'm of the opinion that trying to map any of the entities in D&D to real world entities and personas is both futile and useless. I mean, isn't everything in the world that isn't a PC the GM?

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm of the opinion that trying to map any of the entities in D&D to real world entities and personas is both futile and useless. I mean, isn't everything in the world that isn't a PC the GM? Yes. :smallsmile: