AL rules level 5 PvP tournament build

[da newt]

Using the current AL player's guide rules (v13) what would you bring to a 1 v 1 level 5 PCs PvP tournament? I expect flying races will probably be omitted, basic arena setting with some cover/terrain, and minimal prefight buffing. They might also nerf conjure animals.

What would you build and what strategy would you employ?

[Oramac]

Do you get rests between fights, or is it 1 v 1 with no rest until only one player remains?

In either case, I would likely bring a Jorasco Physician (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24670442&postcount=496). I would go divination wizard for the rerolls, and make sure I take spells that target as many different saves as possible.

[da newt]

Assume long rest between bouts - full nova is in play.

No marks though (no eberron, strixhaven, or other setting specific stuff).

[KorvinStarmast]

Using the current AL player's guide rules (v13) what would you bring to a 1 v 1 level 5 PCs PvP tournament? I expect flying races will probably be omitted, basic arena setting with some cover/terrain, and minimal prefight buffing. They might also nerf conjure animals.

What would you build and what strategy would you employ? I would probably bring a Stars Druid with Resilient CON, and 18 Wis, and summon 8 wolves to overwhelm the opponent with action economy. But the problem is that it takes a minute to summon the wolves. :smallbiggrin:

Second choice is probably a swashbuckler rogue.

[Keravath]

I would probably bring a Stars Druid with Resilient CON, and 18 Wis, and summon 8 wolves to overwhelm the opponent with action economy. But the problem is that it takes a minute to summon the wolves. :smallbiggrin:

Second choice is probably a swashbuckler rogue.

Just curious but Conjure Animals is just an action to cast, not a minute, and I think that is what you would use to summon the wolves?

I think this is also probably why the OP mentioned that there might be restrictions on summon spells.

P.S. In terms of characters, I'd consider a hexblade warlock with Darkness + Devil's sight since the combination allows for advantage/disadvantage vs most melee opponents while also preventing spells that require the caster to see the target. Whether that would be a level 5 warlock or a level 3 warlock + 2 levels of something else would remain to be seen. If the warlock is relying on eldritch/agonizing blast for single target damage then it can be combined with 2 levels of something else. A similar tactic is possible with a shadow sorcerer - so a 3 shadow sorcerer/2 warlock might also be an option.

[Oramac]

Assume long rest between bouts - full nova is in play.

No marks though (no eberron, strixhaven, or other setting specific stuff).

Ahh. Well that changes the landscape considerably.

Given that, I'd bring one of three builds.

1) Pure paladin. Probably Ancients, but any oath would work. If you later do another tournament at 7th or higher, Conquest all the way.

2) Tempest Sorcerer. Basically, 3 Storm Sorc / 2 Tempest Cleric. If you get lucky with a chromatic orb crit and destructive wrath from a 3rd level slot, it's 80 lightning damage. Plus all the nifty sorc and cleric shenanigans. Honestly, this would be my first choice.

3) Hill Dwarf Life Cleric. Build for just all the freakin hit points and outlast your opponent. It's pretty boring, but could work.

[RogueJK]

Vengeance Paladin with Polearm Master and a high STR, wielding a Spear and Shield with the Dueling fighting style. Go ham with 3x Advantaged attacks per turn (plus Bless if you can pre-buff), Smiting away on each since you're not having to save resources for a subsequent fight. I'd likely hedge my bets with a racial pick like MotM Kobold, to have a CHA-based ranged attack cantrip like Chill Touch on tap if faced with a ranged threat.

or

Moon Druid with Resilient CON and a high WIS. Concentrate on a Summon X or Conjure X spell, turn into something like a Dire Wolf or Giant Spider, and spend your other spell slots on healing yourself. Level 5 is still within the portion of the game where Moon Druids are powerhouses. Your damage output won't match a pure nova build, but with your own Wild Shape attacks and a summoned ally it'll be decent. And just from a HP buffer standpoint, they'd easily have 3x as many HP available as any other character, thanks to not only their own HP but also that of their 2x Wild Shape forms. And that's not even counting the ability to burn spell slots for additional healing, or the added HP sponge of the summoned ally.

[J-H]

Assuming average HP, the max we're likely to face, excluding barbarians, is a Fighter (d10hp) with 16 CON. That's 10+6x4+3x5=49hp. Barbarian has 5-10 more.

Assumptions:
Can't rely on enemy failing saves.
You want good saves for yourself.
HP damage wins.

TN Wood Elf Divine Sorc 5. Dex 16, Wis 12, Cha 16 with the ASI at 4 split between Cha and Wis.
Skills to taste.
AC 16 with Mage Armor, jumps to 21 with Shield.
32hp.
Pre-buffs:
Mirror Image (soaks 3 hits)
Concentration buff:
Protection from Evil/Good/Outsiders if you think the enemy is a summoner, as it gives fey, elementals, etc., disadvantage on attacks.
or
Resistance, to help pass the first save.

If you fail a save, you can add 2d4 to the failed save and possibly change the outcome, once per short rest.
Speed is 35', so you're just a bit faster than those who aren't rogues, barbarians, or monks.

4 sorcery points. Metamagics: Quicken, Empower. Each take 1 sorc point.
3rd level Magic Missile does 5 missiles for between 10 and 25 damage. Use Empower if you roll a 1-2, and hopefully you do 20-25 auto-damage with your first cast. Quicken it, and hit the enemy with a cantrip... Sorcs have a lot, so you can pick Ray of Frost to slow them, Sacred Flame if they don't have good dex saves, Fire Bolt for longer range, or Frostbite if the enemy is an archer (impose disadvantage on next attack roll)
You get 2 3rd level slots, so you can do this twice, for 40-50 Magic Missile damage, plus hopefully 1-2 cantrip hits. Alternatively, save a 3rd level slot for Thunder Step (against melee) or Counterspell (against a caster).

Your worst enemy is probably a fast Bearbarian with a lot of HP and resistance to Magic Missile. In that case, you'll want to manage distance and use Thunder Step to get away to the far side of the arena, and keep your Mirror Images up.

[solidork]

Going all in on Magic Missile will need a plan against people who know Shield.

[J-H]

True. There's Counterspell, but it's expensive in terms of spell slots, and could be Counterspelled in turn.

[JackPhoenix]

My build wouldn't matter, as my strategy would be to bow out of the game, because 5e is not build for PvP at all, and it's a horrible choice of a system for something like that. Which would make me a winner, because in this case, the only winning move is not to play.

[Gignere]

True. There's Counterspell, but it's expensive in terms of spell slots, and could be Counterspelled in turn.

If they CS your MM they can’t CS your CS. Anyway if I was doing 1 v 1 PvP it would be all about the initiative. So Harengon + alert in whatever build is probably the way to go. Range builds much better than melee.

[Elenian]

Diviner Wizard has a pretty good chance of being able to just force through Suggestion or Levitate (against people without flight) or Phantasmal Force - even against the target's best save, you probably only need one of your portents to be a 7 or less, and, if you can target a bad save, it's very possible that you can force a failure even with a 12 or so.

You probably need Alert; depending on the specifics of the arena setup you might want Eldritch Adept (for Distant Spell) to ensure you've got the range to strike turn 1 and help with counterspells. Probably Harengon with Alert ends up being optimal, though Custom Lineage is also possible. Should probably take one attack roll spell (ie Chromatic Orb in case your portents are {20, 19} or something, and of course you need Counterspell.

[stoutstien]

It probably be easier to just play rock paper scissors

[KorvinStarmast]

Just curious but Conjure Animals is just an action to cast, not a minute, and I think that is what you would use to summon the wolves? That would be a brain fart in my case, I was mixing that up with Conjure Elemental.

My build wouldn't matter, as my strategy would be to bow out of the game, because 5e is not build for PvP at all, and it's a horrible choice of a system for something like that. Which would make me a winner, because in this case, the only winning move is not to play. TBH, this.

[da newt]

The lucky feat would cancel out the portent right?

As for the wet socks who would turn their nose up at participating in this affront to the sanctity of D&D, it's just a fun little departure at the local game store as a part of the annual Free RPG Day and all proceeds go to the local food bank. Lighten up Francis!

[stoutstien]

The lucky feat would cancel out the portent right?

As for the wet socks who would turn their nose up at participating in this affront to the sanctity of D&D, it's just a fun little departure at the local game store as a part of the annual Free RPG Day and all proceeds go to the local food bank. Lighten up Francis!

It's not so much as being a wet sock as their are really only three general strategies that would work and it's basically *is* rock paper scissors. Maybe a forth group for "I hope RNG goes my way" wild cards.

[Oramac]

The lucky feat would cancel out the portent right?

How do you mean? You can have both Lucky and Portent available, and use them as you see fit. I don't think it would be at all beneficial to use them at the same time, but I suppose you could.

[solidork]

How do you mean? You can have both Lucky and Portent available, and use them as you see fit. I don't think it would be at all beneficial to use them at the same time, but I suppose you could.

I think they mean as a way to counter an enemy with Portent. I'd say its arguable - you're not actually rolling when they use Portent - advantage and disadvantage dont interact with Portent for that reason.

[Oramac]

How do you mean? You can have both Lucky and Portent available, and use them as you see fit. I don't think it would be at all beneficial to use them at the same time, but I suppose you could.


I think they mean as a way to counter an enemy with Portent. I'd say its arguable - you're not actually rolling when they use Portent - advantage and disadvantage dont interact with Portent for that reason.

I see. That is pretty vague. It's probably going to vary by DM, though personally I'd most likely rule that Lucky cannot counter Portent.

[stoutstien]

I see. That is pretty vague. It's probably going to vary by DM, though personally I'd most likely rule that Lucky cannot counter Portent.

IMO portent sets the final roll so rerolls won't effect it but secondary value can such as BI dice would.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Just curious but Conjure Animals is just an action to cast, not a minute, and I think that is what you would use to summon the wolves?

I think this is also probably why the OP mentioned that there might be restrictions on summon spells.

P.S. In terms of characters, I'd consider a hexblade warlock with Darkness + Devil's sight since the combination allows for advantage/disadvantage vs most melee opponents while also preventing spells that require the caster to see the target. Whether that would be a level 5 warlock or a level 3 warlock + 2 levels of something else would remain to be seen. If the warlock is relying on eldritch/agonizing blast for single target damage then it can be combined with 2 levels of something else. A similar tactic is possible with a shadow sorcerer - so a 3 shadow sorcerer/2 warlock might also be an option.

The darkness trick is definitely a good one; blindfighting might work pretty well too. I don't play AL, so I'm not sure if Oathbreaker is legal, but they get Darkness and could take blindfighting. If you got the enemy where you wanted them, smite away. With PAM you get 3 swings, which are going to add up. Moon Druid is still a problem though.

[Gignere]

The darkness trick is definitely a good one; blindfighting might work pretty well too. I don't play AL, so I'm not sure if Oathbreaker is legal, but they get Darkness and could take blindfighting. If you got the enemy where you wanted them, smite away. With PAM you get 3 swings, which are going to add up. Moon Druid is still a problem though.

Dispel magic would be a hard counter and you’ll be down 1 of 2 spell slots. It’s good against non casters.

[da newt]

Of note, RAW blind fighting gives you blind sight which allows you to perceive creatures within 10' but not SEE them. Unseen Attackers and Targets requires you to SEE. Tremor sense is similarly useless for targeting.

Yes this is dumb/wrong, but it's also RAW.

Devils Sight and casting Darkness is a great combo. As long as you are unseen when casting to prevent counter spell ...

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Dispel magic would be a hard counter and you’ll be down 1 of 2 spell slots. It’s good against non casters.

True, but I think the OP said you could pre-cast. Dispel Magic would use a valuable action while the martial is closing and potentially whaling on a full caster.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Of note, RAW blind fighting gives you blind sight which allows you to perceive creatures within 10' but not SEE them. Unseen Attackers and Targets requires you to SEE. Tremor sense is similarly useless for targeting.

Yes this is dumb/wrong, but it's also RAW.

Devils Sight and casting Darkness is a great combo. As long as you are unseen when casting to prevent counter spell ...

I'd say in this case RAW is not equal to RAI; at least that's the way we rule it.

[da newt]

"I'd say in this case RAW is not equal to RAI; at least that's the way we rule it."

100% agree, but RAW is RAW and AL requires RAW no matter how foolish because as soon as you start introducing rulings it's no longer the same at every table.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

"I'd say in this case RAW is not equal to RAI; at least that's the way we rule it."

100% agree, but RAW is RAW and AL requires RAW no matter how foolish because as soon as you start introducing rulings it's no longer the same at every table.

Your earlier post was actually not, word for word, correct, if that's what you're going for here with this RAW argument. Blind Fighting does not use the word 'perceive', but uses the words, 'effectively SEE', so to my mind this leaves RAW rulings open to either interpretation. Given the use of the word, see, in the description I'm more inclined to side with that interpretation.

[Dalinar]

Anybody going to bring up Stunning Strike? No?

Something like a Kensei Aarakocra (unsure if Aara is legal in AL, I picked it to counter Fly; if no flying species is available, grab Harengon to win initiative more, or just something with extra walk speed if that isn't there either) could lock down relatively squishy opponents until they die, while packing pretty potent kiting (depending on arena size and features) which would help against characters relatively resistant to that strategy.

Diviner probably beats it (but it very much just kinda beats anything, provided Portent goes low enough to force a failed save-or-suck and then it subsequently wins initiative), but a T2 PVP situation is one of the few in which Monk is actually pretty good, because many of the monster tricks that mitigate Stunning Strike (like showing up in greater numbers, or Legendary Resistance, or stun immunity) just don't apply here.

Alert feat is critical to any PVP build; PCs are glass cannons relative to each other, for the most part, and there are a whole lot of builds out there that "just win" if they go first (again, Diviner).

---

Outside of the optimization exercise behind it all, just remember to have fun and not take it too seriously. D&D has never been a balanced game at all, let alone in PVP situations specifically, so becoming overly invested in the end result is probably the only real pitfall here.

[stoutstien]

Anybody going to bring up Stunning Strike? No?

Something like a Kensei Aarakocra (unsure if Aara is legal in AL, I picked it to counter Fly; if no flying species is available, grab Harengon to win initiative more, or just something with extra walk speed if that isn't there either) could lock down relatively squishy opponents until they die, while packing pretty potent kiting (depending on arena size and features) which would help against characters relatively resistant to that strategy.

Diviner probably beats it (but it very much just kinda beats anything, provided Portent goes low enough to force a failed save-or-suck and then it subsequently wins initiative), but a T2 PVP situation is one of the few in which Monk is actually pretty good, because many of the monster tricks that mitigate Stunning Strike (like showing up in greater numbers, or Legendary Resistance, or stun immunity) just don't apply here.

Alert feat is critical to any PVP build; PCs are glass cannons relative to each other, for the most part, and there are a whole lot of builds out there that "just win" if they go first (again, Diviner).

---

Outside of the optimization exercise behind it all, just remember to have fun and not take it too seriously. D&D has never been a balanced game at all, let alone in PVP situations specifically, so becoming overly invested in the end result is probably the only real pitfall here.

SS would fall in the "wild card " grouping at lv 5. You'd spam SS and hope you'd land one with enough ki left over to take advantage of it. With 5 ki total and assuming everyone would have at least a decent con modifier you'd be lucky to get any mileage out of it.

Probably better off with Mercy or kensei +sharpshooter if you want nova or shadow or open hand if you are going to try to go for attrition/ avoidance.

[da newt]

Your earlier post was actually not, word for word, correct, if that's what you're going for here with this RAW argument. Blind Fighting does not use the word 'perceive', but uses the words, 'effectively SEE', so to my mind this leaves RAW rulings open to either interpretation. Given the use of the word, see, in the description I'm more inclined to side with that interpretation.

Could you please provide your source as blindsight absolutely does use the term "perceive" in the PHB pg 183. The blind fighting entry in Tasha's pg 41 does say "you have blindsight within a range of 10'." It then goes on to add 'you can EFFECTIVELY see anything that isn't behind total coverage, even if you're blinded or in darkness." Also you can see invisible creatures unless they successively hide.

Why is there a caveat 'effectively'? Does that mean you can 'see' it or you can only 'effectively' see it?

RAW - can you see it or can you only quasi effectively see it?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Could you please provide your source as blindsight absolutist does use the term "perceive" in the PHB pg 183. The blind fighting entry in Tasha's pg 41 does say "you have blindsight within a range of 10'." It then goes on to add 'you can EFFECTIVELY see anything that isn't behind total coverage, even if you're blinded or in darkness." Also you can see invisible creatures unless they successively hide.

Why is there a caveat 'effectively'? Does that mean you can 'see' it or you can only 'effectively' see it?

RAW - can you see it or can you only quasi effectively see it?

In truth I really couldn't care, and I'd accept whatever ruling a DM wanted to make. I just don't think it's clear cut enough to say definitively that one way is RAW.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Kalashtar Berserk Barbarian with GWM.

[stoutstien]

Kalashtar Berserk Barbarian with GWM.

I don't think kalashtar is AL legal and even then I would think any build that can be canceled out by a handful of first lv spell would be out of the running pretty quick.

[da newt]

Update on rules:

No precasting (except find familiar)
No mounts (except if they are a class feature - steel defender / beast companion)
Starting equipment plus one AL allowed 5th level magic item (+1 shield, weapon, focus) only
No flying PCs
Conjure animals will get you random beasts (you hope for wolves and get giant bats or cows)

So no plate, 1/2 plate, studded leather, breastplate. etc. No spell components of value (how do you cast FF?). The Armorer Artificer is limited to scale mail, barbarians have no armor, hexblades can only have leather armor, etc.

[Amnestic]

Conjure animals will get you random beasts (you hope for wolves and get giant bats or cows)


As long as it's not a CR0 creature or something that only has a swim speed you're still sitting pretty tbh. 8 cows will get the job done.

[Eldariel]

Update on rules:

No precasting (except find familiar)
No mounts (except if they are a class feature - steel defender / beast companion)
Starting equipment plus one AL allowed 5th level magic item (+1 shield, weapon, focus) only
No flying PCs
Conjure animals will get you random beasts (you hope for wolves and get giant bats or cows)

So no plate, 1/2 plate, studded leather, breastplate. etc. No spell components of value (how do you cast FF?). The Armorer Artificer is limited to scale mail, barbarians have no armor, hexblades can only have leather armor, etc.

Cows are stronger than Wolves by a wide margin. Giant Bats are pretty strong too. Honestly, the only bad CR 1/4s are Boars, Axe Beaks & Mastiffs, and even those get enough job done in 9v1. Everything else is more or less busted, especially in PvP. So go Moon Druid 5, pick Shadar-kai (for Sleep immunity, which otherwise counters Wildshape pretty hard), pick up Res: Con or Lucky (depending on if you're more afraid of damage dealers or casters; Lucky is very good vs. casters while Res: Con lets you keep your humanoid form bonuses in Wildshape) and go from there.

While Initiative is huge, remember that it's not the be-all end-all; e.g. a Wizard will be hard-pressed to kill you alone after landing CC so even getting Portented to your Wis-save (which is still reasonable +6) is not that bad. As long as you get to cast Conjure Animals (outside Counterspell range preferably), you'll be fine. If enemy is Counterspell-happy, you can just Heat Metal, Hold Person, or Summon Beast to force them to waste their slots or let you do some stuff and then Conjure Animals if they lose their 3rd level slot for something else.


Lucky is probably better since it works on Initiative too. So:
Shadar-kai Moon Druid 5

8/16/16/8/16/8

Lucky

Pick at least Ice Knife, Thunderwave, Absorb Elements, Summon Beast, Heat Metal, Conjure Animals. Could try miser's Hold Person or Spike Growth too but those are largely not that reliable in PvP. Your cantrips don't matter that much. Abuse Giant Octopus/Rocktopus Wildshape vs. martial types + Restraint combo for minions vs. anything as well as any kinds of blasters (52 HP especially with Shadar-kai resistance is huge), remember that Brown Bear has +3 Con so if you need to roll lots of Con-saves, use that, and Giant Spider has Blindsight and can sling Webs at range for your minions to take advantage of. Dire Wolf also works with minions and is generally reasonable.

Try to resolve Conjure Animals and win with sheer action economy while Wildshape guarantees they cannot burst you down reasonably and Lucky protects your Concentration + Wis-based save-or-lose (note that Incapacitation is the only way to get rid of Concentration aside from just killing you, and all options are either Wis-based [Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, etc.], Con-based [Summon Undead], or Sleep [to which you are immune as per Shadar-kai] so once you get your minions out and Wildshape, you'll be very hard to take down; use minions to prevent enemy from reaching you in melee, remember that you're immune to Hold Person, and so on). Split your conjurations up against anyone with potential Fireball access, and use them to clamp down on melee/ranged types close up. Always conjure them with enough range to charge.


Remember that you can always turn into a badger and dig out to safety should the terrain allow that. And if someone Rope Trick hides, remember that your Conjures last for 1 hour too so if you cast them after his Rope Trick, they'll be able to camp him up. Could take Dispel Magic as insurance there.

[DNDPVP]

If anyone wants to try any of this out, our community literally does this very thing (you'll laugh. It's as if the OP read our ruleset :P). We try and stay as close to RAW as possible and have hundreds of matches played with out ruleset. We are community driven and always looking for others to help us steer the ship.

We host exhibition games, where you play when how and vs who you want.
We also host tournaments and events (Right now we are in the middle of a 2v2 double elimination tournament).

Message me for discord and website links :P

[DruidAlanon]

5th level is an inflection point for Moon druid since melee classes get the 2nd attack but still could be quite good. So, probably straight moon (or even shepherd). You can't multiclass or you'll loose your summons, so a very simple yet powerlfull tactic would be to conjure animals, turn into whatever, from CR1 that the situation calls and good to go. There could be ways to get the web spell to ground flying characters, and then destroy them in a round with the summons. Or counter darnkess with summons with blindsight, and let them do the job for you.

Anyhow, imy experience, in this type of PvPs, Warlocks with the standard darkness+evil's sight combo tend to beat the crap out of everybody. If they opt for ranged attacks, even better (safer) for them.

Also a sorc 3/hexblade 2 could work. Good AC (19-24), good combo with web+eldritch blasts, strong counter to counterspell with subbtle spell, gift for alarcity to help you play 1st, silvery barbs to force rerolls, etc. Quite strong for the level, imho. Not exactly the nova dmg of conjure animals but can hold its ground.

[Eldariel]

Anyhow, imy experience, in this type of PvPs, Warlocks with the standard darkness+evil's sight combo tend to beat the crap out of everybody. If they opt for ranged attacks, even better (safer) for them.

Twilight Cleric (Twilight Sanctuary removes Darkness as does level 3 Moonbeam), Moon Druid (lots of Blindsight forms, Fog Cloud trumps Darkness, can just turn into Giant Badger and let Darkness run out), anyone using Pyrotechnics, Zeal Clerics dropping sufficient AOEs to just dispel it while dealing 48, Sleep-upcasters, Rope Trick (trade/rest it out), etc. tend to natively have really good match-up against Darkness/DS. I've played on a 2v2 level 5 server for a couple of years now and the first tournament had a LOT of Devil's Sight parties but they largely got crushed.

[da newt]

I'm leaning moon druid for summons and big HP sponges / mobility and LUCKY maybe w/ ALERT too. As for race I love the shadar kai but might go w/ Satyr as I fear a save or suck more than damage.

Fog cloud ought to be a cheap darkness counter too.

W/ AL rules you don't have access to any of the setting specific stuff so no silvery barbs or subclasses / races / marks etc. from those.

[Eldariel]

I'm leaning moon druid for summons and big HP sponges / mobility and LUCKY maybe w/ ALERT too. As for race I love the shadar kai but might go w/ Satyr as I fear a save or suck more than damage.

Fog cloud ought to be a cheap darkness counter too.

W/ AL rules you don't have access to any of the setting specific stuff so no silvery barbs or subclasses / races / marks etc. from those.

Sleep immunity is really important for M. Druid. Sleep just no-save ends your Concentration AND Wildshape if your Wildshape total HP is lower than the rolled number in addition to leaving you unconscious. A top tier spell even with maxed HP but absolutely ridiculous with average HP and no precasting.

Also the damage resistance is really good to multiply your Wildshape HP and being able to teleport while in WS (Blessing is not a spell so you can use it) fixes mobility on shapes like Giant Octopus/Rocktopus, which are otherwise incredible but slow and kitable.

Also you are already immune to Hold Person while in WS due to type so that helps. Leaves only Hideous Laughter and Hypnotic Pattern as notable challenges...and with Lucky and +6 Wis you are fine there. Phantasmal Force, etc. doesn't end Concentration so not that dangerous.

[da newt]

Good points. I think I'll also have a bat (wild companion) in my back pocket just in case visibility goes bad ...

[ATHATH]

Doesn't a Mountain Dwarf (or V-Human with Lucky) Div Wiz 5 with Metamagic Adept: Subtle Spell kind of sweep here? Portent lowroll + Subtle Suggestion ("Man, that guy looks tough. I should just surrender to save myself the pain of fighting him.") lets you cheese most MUs if you have a portent lowroll and either go first or survive your first turn with LoS. Subtle Counterspell lets you win even when going second vs. most spellcasters who aren't also packing Subtle Spell. I don't think most martial builds will be able to one-round you, but those that can will probably struggle to pull a first turn kill against Shield + medium armor.

[da newt]

A very potent combo for sure but - 'I surrender' isn't a win by our rules -> 0 hp is the winning condition.

Also, some would rule Lucky counters a portent, you can't counterspell without a caster you can see within range, and with starting equipment only the WIZ has no armor available (although they could use their first turn of combat to cast mage armor, but one action is a high cost for +3 AC).

[da newt]

BTW, I ended up going Satyr Moon Druid w/ Lucky feat and did very well. The one opponent who gave me issues was a Tiefling Hexblade Chain Pact who used thunder step to decimate my animals, plus darkness w/ devil's sight and hellish rebuke - the Investiture of the Chain Master invisible IMP tore me up. I made a few poor strategic decisions in that one, but pulled it out in the end.

[Boverk]

BTW, I ended up going Satyr Moon Druid w/ Lucky feat and did very well. The one opponent who gave me issues was a Tiefling Hexblade Chain Pact who used thunder step to decimate my animals, plus darkness w/ devil's sight and hellish rebuke - the Investiture of the Chain Master invisible IMP tore me up. I made a few poor strategic decisions in that one, but pulled it out in the end.

I read this as Sailor Moon Druid and now I have a new character idea.

[Eldariel]

BTW, I ended up going Satyr Moon Druid w/ Lucky feat and did very well. The one opponent who gave me issues was a Tiefling Hexblade Chain Pact who used thunder step to decimate my animals, plus darkness w/ devil's sight and hellish rebuke - the Investiture of the Chain Master invisible IMP tore me up. I made a few poor strategic decisions in that one, but pulled it out in the end.

I guess you didn't have Sleep cast on you? :D And does "Very well" mean winning the whole thing?

[da newt]

Yes and Yes.

8 person double elimination. The arenas included some cover.

I don't think anyone used Sleep - but it's certainly a great no save low level slot version of dispel magic with an unconscious rider. Our win condition was 0 hp, so you'd still have to finish off a sleeper, but still - I'll be sure to keep it in mind if there is a next go-around.

[Eldariel]

Yes and Yes.

8 person double elimination. The arenas included some cover.

I don't think anyone used Sleep - but it's certainly a great no save low level slot version of dispel magic with an unconscious rider. Our win condition was 0 hp, so you'd still have to finish off a sleeper, but still - I'll be sure to keep it in mind if there is a next go-around.

It also ends Wildshape and lets you essentially line up two rounds of advantageous attacks (including an autocrit) on your unlucky target (unless you have loose earth in which case you can straight-up bury them alive with Mold Earth) plus disarm them of equipment and put them in Minor Illusion box: turn on your strongest Concentration (Sleep is not Conc; Summon Shadowspawn/Conjure Animals/similar is typically the best option that also readies an attack), ready an action to attack with your best ability (though mind that readying a spell such as a cantrip takes your Conc, so typically your best physical attack is the way to go) right after their turn and essentially get two rounds' worth of actions from both, yourself and your minions (and if you miss your attack, you can simply postpone it).

And on your turn after critting the enemy, you can simply Sleep them again if you fear you can't kill them otherwise (thanks to Minor Illusion, you can attack with advantage on the second attack too; make it a box that covers 3/4 of the sides of the enemy square and attack from the last direction with your reaction leaving the illusion intact). It's very unlikely that you fail to kill your enemy if you get them Slept once between the autocrits, advantageous attacks, and chain-Sleeping.

[Keravath]

"I'd say in this case RAW is not equal to RAI; at least that's the way we rule it."

100% agree, but RAW is RAW and AL requires RAW no matter how foolish because as soon as you start introducing rulings it's no longer the same at every table.

"Blind Fighting

You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover, even if you’re blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless the creature successfully hides from you."

The Blind Fighting fighting style specifically states that you can "effectively SEE" anything that isn't behind total cover. It doesn't say "sense". The description of blindsight uses the wording perceive but the Blind Fighting description makes the intent (and RAW) clear by saying that the creature can effectively see at least in the case of this fighting style.

In any cases that are ambiguous in AL, the DM gets to decide how they want to run it but in this case, the wording of Blind Fighting would support the creature being able to SEE the creatures within the blindsight radius. This could also be taken as a clarification of how all Blindsight is supposed to work but that would be at DM discretion.

[da newt]

What is the difference between "EFFECTIVELY SEE" (what blind fighting gets you) and "SEE" (what unseen requires)?

Certainly they must not be equivalent or the word 'effectively' has no meaning. Blind fighting does specifically state you can 'see' invisible creatures, but can only 'effectively see' if you are blinded or in darkness.

from oxford

effectively - actually but not officially or explicitly.
"they were effectively controlled by the people they were supposed to be investigating"


Lastly - I completely agree with the INTENT, but the wording is poor. THESE are the things WotC should be concentrating on improving w/ the next generation of D&D.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Goliath Druid 2 Genielock 3 chain gift of the ever living. It’s a fair amount of HP with some potent bonus action heal and reflex damage reduction.

[diplomancer]

What is the difference between "EFFECTIVELY SEE" (what blind fighting gets you) and "SEE" (what unseen requires)?

Certainly they must not be equivalent or the word 'effectively' has no meaning. Blind fighting does specifically state you can 'see' invisible creatures, but can only 'effectively see' if you are blinded or in darkness.

from oxford

effectively - actually but not officially or explicitly.
"they were effectively controlled by the people they were supposed to be investigating"


Lastly - I completely agree with the INTENT, but the wording is poor. THESE are the things WotC should be concentrating on improving w/ the next generation of D&D.

They couldn't go back and re-write all the spells and abilities that require you to see a target. And it would be very weird to say that someone who has blindfighting can see the unseen. So they did what they could, which is to say "effectively see". Now, what the dictionary says about "effectively"?

1- In an effective way;
2- For all practical purposes;

Tldr: Blindfighting allows you to target unseen creatures.

PS: The first Oxford dictionary definition (according to Google, at least), says: "in such a manner as to achieve a desired result." Even with the definition you've provided, they can actually see the creature, even if not "officially" or "explicitly". Obviously, no one "officially" sees anyone, and, by definition, you can't "explicitly" see the unseen. But with blindfighting you can "actually" see them, which allows you to target them.