Popping my W40K Cherry

[DrunkPrivateer]

So, I need a hobby. I have decided to try out Warhammer 40K. I'll probably try to get down to my local comic book/hobby shop but if I can't I'll have to get stuff online. I have been reading the official website. From what I've been reading I like the sound of the Dark Eldars and the Tyranids. What are peoples recomendations? Also, can a guy like me who's not great with his hands do a halfway-decent job of painting the little buggers? I know the website says so, but then they're in the business of selling them.

[lordsigmund]

If you're starting now and you want to pick one of those two armies go with the tyranids, the dark eldar haven't had updated rules since the latest version of the 40k rules came out and the new codex (army book) wont be out til late 2008/early 2009 iirc.

[Wraith]

If you can write really, really small letters with a pencil, then you can paint 40k miniatures to a good standard. It's as much patience as skill, really :smallsmile:

I would recommend against Dark Eldar, on the grounds that their rulebook is quite old and not due to be revised for a while. That means they're ever-so-slightly incompatible with some of the rules and are at a great disadvantage to other, neweer armies that are better polished.

Basically, they'd be a pain in the neck to learn how to play with, because they're not an easy army to use even before you realise how outdated the Codex is.

Tyranids, on the other hands, are a different story altogether. Take an enormous mob of multi-armed monsters, then run forward in a wave and eat your opponent. The most difficult thing to decide on is whether you use BIG monsters or smaller monsters, because they all look awesome.

So yeah... to learn to play with, Tyranids would be a simpler and much easier to paint choice than Dark Eldar, and probably more entertaining too.

Most people I know would suggest that you learn to play with a generic Space Marines army as an alternative to either of the races you looked at, on the grounds that they are tough, competent and don't have many special rules to make things confusing, which is ideal for newbies. Flexible and forgiving, it's hard to get things so badly wrong that you can't come back from the brink of defeat.

These, however, are people that have the same amount of experience and practice as I, but whom I occasionally annihilate with my own, non-space marine army.
So, don't believe anyone who says there's a "best" army to go for. Always choose the one with the CONCEPT that you like best, not which special rules you want to use, and you'll have far more fun playing. Although PowerGaming is something of an art-form in 40k as well as D&D, such cheap victories are much more hollow and less fulfilling than playing to the spirit of the game and having a narrowly-fought loss.

Hope that helps. :smallbiggrin:

[EDIT: Much Ninja-ing occurring; lordsigmund beat me to it :smalltongue: ]

[DeathQuaker]

If you like close combat monstrosity, go with Tyranids.

If you like speedy shreddiness (but weak bodies), either wait for the new Dark Eldar to come out, or try the Eldar, which are just out.

I highly recommending proxying an army and playing it against your friends before you buy figures. A lot of times an army that looks awesome turns out to not suit one's play style, and then one has spent a lot of time and money on an army that doesn't suit.

Painting requires patience.... or alternately, if you have cash, you can hire someone to paint your army for you. You can also try to buy a painted army on EBay, which can be cost effective.

There are techniques that you can speedily paint things so they will at least look decent.... inking/glazing and drybrushing quickly add detail to a model without taking a lot of time (and helps you get a sense of how to control your brush for different techniques). Tyranids do in particular benefit from these methods, too. If you do a 'net search, you'll find lots of great advice on brush techniques etc. Some places to look include GW's own Web site, a site called BrushThralls (which focuses on painting Warmachine figs, but the methods apply to any minis), the DoctorFaust's.

[Dragor]

Yes, if you're new, Tyranids are the way to go. Not only are their tactics simple, they are incredibly easy to paint to a good standard. I, personally, like Tyranids, even though I don't play them!

It seems to me that you're leaning on the 'Evil' side of things. If so, Chaos just got a new set of rules, so maybe you want to check them out too.

Think long and hard before building up an army, because you may regret it later and fine yourself drooling at other armies' stuff. I originally played Orks, and then switched to Witch Hunters, and I loved it. However, those Orks now lie neglected and I can't EBay them (parents, y'see).

Have fun with your Nids (if that's what you get) and happy devouring.

[SmartAlec]

On top of everything everyone's said about the Dark Eldar, I would like to add that their models look very dated now. They were the first multi-component plastic kit, and GW's modellers managed the feat of making multi-poseable, multi-component plastic models that came out looking like single-piece models, and poor, easily-breakable ones at that.

[lordsigmund]

the 'Evil' side of things.

Methinks that theres no such thing as black or white good or evil in 40k, all forces are one shade of grey or another :)

Except maybe the Tau, optimistic jumped up little children that they are.

[Archonic Energy]

*Greases up a IG Baneblade*

what?

oh you didn't mean like that. :smallredface:

[A Rainy Knight]

I would recommend Space Marines or Tyranids. I have a small little Space Marine force myself, and they're all-around pretty good, and fight in small enough numbers that they're relatively easy to paint. The 'nids fight in really big numbers, one of their main charms, and their troops are comparatively easy to paint. I've never actually played as the 'nids, though.

[YPU]

Methinks that theres no such thing as black or white good or evil in 40k, all forces are one shade of grey or another :)

Except maybe the Tau, optimistic jumped up little children that they are.

Yea right, the tau mentality pretty much boils down to: “join for the greater good or die.”
But indeed 40K races are either dark grey or pitch black.

Nids are easy to paint and can even look good if you take a quite large brush and just start swiping over them just make sure to touch up a few details like eyes. Also they are easier to play, and a few of their options allow you to play relatively large games with a small number of miniatures and still go for the horde style. (mostly this is because of the ‘without numbers’ option, which allows you to ‘respawn’ a unit once.)

[Doglord]

Space marines and tau are easy to paint. Out of your choices tyranids have way more models and combos. The dark eldar codex is ancient.

[Dragor]

Oh, come on, you can NOT say that the Dark Eldar are not evil. They kill, maim and butcher and enjoy it. If there is an 'evil' in the WH40K universe, then the Dark Eldar are that. To me, anyway.

Anyway, this is an argument for another place- to the WH40K thread! :smalltongue:

[Xefas]

I have a Tyranid army, myself. It isn't very large because I stopped buying them after I realized that no one in my area actually played. However, I do feel very confident in the opinion that, were there people around me to play with, I would be owning a good deal of face.

They're pretty easy to paint, and I had a ball with the Hive Tyrant, who just looks like such a badass compared to almost every other model in the game. The only problem is the sheer number of miniatures you'd have to paint to get a good size army. There are only so many termagaunts you can paint in a day without losing it...

So...go Tyranids, I doubt you'll regret it.

[Were-Sandwich]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and suggest you try a few other sci-fi tabeltop games before buying any minatures. Because 40K is:

a) Very expensive compared to other games. Really expensive.

b) (in my opinion. oYou mileage may vary) not that good a game. It has some problems (ok a lot of problems).

c) The whole GW ethos is very...impersonal (inpersonal, unpersonal?). You enter a store, a sales assistant pounces you, asks you what army you collect and drowns you under a sea of enthusiasm as he tries to convince you that spending £40 for 50p worth of plastic is a really good idea. Also, they have this One True Path thing going, where they attempt to convince youth at no other company exists, adn that their models are the only ones you can use, only their paints are the correct colours etc. Its very...offputting. And before someone states (quite correctly) that they are a business, and exist to make money, yes this is true, but there are limits.

I can reccomend from experience Stargrunt II, Dirtside II and Full Thrust by Ground Zero Games (the latter two are free from their site), Chain Reaction by Two Hour Wargames (free from their site). There exists a veritable cornucopia of minatures manufacturers out there, all much more reasonably priced than GW. Irregular Minatures, Eureka Minatures, Ground Zero Games, Laughing Monk Minatures, and Urban Mammoth, off the top of my head, all have much more reasonably priced sci-fi ranges. The only thing GW has on them is plastic unit sets. Also, don't overlook Airfix as a source of ridiculously cheap infantry.

(Note, take this with a pinch of salt, as I really don't like GW, but try finding your local wargaming club, and seeing what they play, so you know you'll ahve someone to paly agaisnt with whatever game you buy. Of course if they all play only GW games then this is all for moot.)

[GolemsVoice]

At the above poster:
Sadly, GW seems to have succeeded with their policy with me, I do not know of much other wargames than Warhammer 40K, so I am in no position to say that any of the things I will mentioned don't hold truth for the games you mentioned.

When you are buying Warhammer 40k, you will not only buy an army (or may not even do so at all) but also a world. This is what's important to me. You might want to read some books, and then decide which characters fit for you, which opponents you liked. Liking an army a lot will help you find the enthusiasm to paint up to 100 miniatures (if you are going for the 'nids, maybe more) if you just don't want to do it at the moment (and those times will come). and to put aside the many defeats you will face at the beginning.

Second, when you play Warhammer, you can be sure you are not alone out there. Many people who take interest in the general things that make up a geek's world, such as most of the population on this forum, have at least some knowlegde of some GW setting, so it might be easier for you to find fellow gamers, opponents and like minded. (And it's not fun if you can't spent an hour making DAKKA DAKKA noises and discussing the specifications of the Leman Russ Subedition 2398AK Hu, 23, K'sharto-scheme, modified according to the Imperial Decree 234-5.)

[Shas aia Toriia]

I agree with TPAM. When you buy an army, you buy your own chunk of a small world. And also, everybody knows WH, just like everybody knows D&D instead of, say, Tunnels and Trolls.

But I reccomend the Nids. Not only are they easier to play (read: SWARM!!), but their codex isn't as old.

However, I think that GW needs to make more "good" aligned armies. In my experience, everybody always plays evil armies, and us good folk get swamped. Good meaning the Imperium, Evil meaning, unfortunately, everything else.

Proud player of the Black Templars for 7 years, here, though. :smallsmile:
NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

[Jakezor]

Methinks that theres no such thing as black or white good or evil in 40k, all forces are one shade of grey or another :)

Except maybe the Tau, optimistic jumped up little children that they are.

Actually, even the Tau are quite grey, see, you basically have two choices, Join the Greater Good, or be eliminated by it.

Heck, even that choice they deny some races (read: Vespids) by using mind controling pheromones.

The fact that they appear so well bleached just makes them more insedious.

I'd say there's a true "Black" though, it's called Chaos.
Then, of corse, in the gray-scale world of 40k, there is another option.
Green. Go Orks!
(just kidding, I'd never play 40k Orks... because I have 8k of fantasy... many that still need paint)

Also, Shas'aia Toriia, Don't forget that there are as many Imperial Armies as Not Imperal armies.

Imperials:
Imperial Guard
Pure Inquisition (though this isnt' an army so much as a way to lose)
Grey Knights
Sisters of Battle
And the flagship Space Marines (in many different flavors: cherry, watermellon, and dog being but a few)
Plus, you can combine them in bizzare ways, IG + Grey knights, =][= + sm, or guard, or sisters... you get the idea.

Also note that two of these armies, SM and Guard, are the most heavily customiziable of any army in 40K what with the docterin/trait system

Not-Imperial:
Toasters (Necrons)
Things that go REND in the night ("nids)
The Bad Boys (chaos)
Twinkies (Eldar)
dark Twinkies (dark eldar)
And green Fungi-men (orks)
Those silly goat-children. (T'au)

Alright, I guess theres *two* more non-imperial army than imperial... But i'm counting all Space Marines as one army even though Space Wolves are as different from, say, Iron Hands, are Eldar are from Dark Eldar.

[Cristo Meyers]

I'll just get this out of the way now:

40K has one major thing going for it: a very large player base. You can walk into almost any FLGS (Friendly Local Gaming Store) and find at least one other person that plays 40K. Very few other games can do that (Confrontation is the only one that comes to mind, though Babylon 5: A Call To Arms comes close) It also has it's own support structure with Games Workshop stores.

However:

We're not kidding when we say it's expensive. It is, easily, one of if not the most expensive tabletop game out there today. Many of the criticisms of the 40K ruleset are, unfortunately, true. It's bulky, cumbersome in many places, and doesn't make any sense in others (i.e.: Frag grenades that don't do damage). I'll only mention the accusations of bad in-game balance and the stories of the 40K society as your mileage may vary (personally, I never had too much of a problem).

If you're sure you want to get into 40K (and more power to you if you are), then here's my advice:

I never played with or against the Tyranids (I was a Space Wolf), but from everything I've heard, they have a simple paint style and play style. Big plus for a beginner. I would definitely take them over the Dark Eldar, an advanced "Finesse" type army if ever there was one.

Find a group that plays in your area and watch a game if you haven't already, participate if they'll let you, even if they aren't playing with Tyranids. Get a feel for the rules as this game will live or die by it's rules. Having an army is no good if you can't stand the way the game works.

If you like the game and want to jump in, look for the big boxes first. They're usually pretty decent deals. Also check out places like Bartertown.com to see if any minis show up that you want.

And as much as Games Workshop will try to make you forget it: don't forget there are other games out there, you just have to look. Starship Troopers by Mongoose and Rezolution by Aberrant come to mind.

At any rate, have fun. It's the whole reason we do what we do.

[Fallen Martyr]

First off, don't let anyone convince you that the Imperium is good. They're just as gray as the rest.

Secondly, Dark Eldar require great finesse and planning to use effectively. And some times you play brilliantly and loose because the codex is ancient. Things may be different after the new codex comes out, but that's not due for a year or so.

[DeathQuaker]

a) Very expensive compared to other games. Really expensive.


This is why I suggested to the OP that he proxies his army (i.e., borrows someone else's models or uses blank bases or other means) and plays awhile before he makes any purchases. It is actually possible to play 40K without the official models; if you have any rules problems with that, all you need are the right size bases.

Getting into 40K doesn't mean you have to go out right away and spend thousands of dollars on an army--or ever, in fact.

Of course, if you want to play on the tournament circuit, you need the official Citadel models all WYSIWYGed up, but that's a whole different ballpark than just being interested in and trying out the game.

Even if you do go out and get your army, there are a bunch of ways to get an army on the cheap. For example: purchase it on EBay, where you can often get stuff for very cheap.

I got most of my army in exchange for painting other people's armies (which I had fun doing). I have about 3,000 points of Sisters of Battle that I personally spent about... oh, $300 on. The rest was gifts and payment for my painting jobs.

I think I've also spent as much if not more on my WarMachine army, and I've played that game less and have far fewer models. (WarMachine is cheaper to get into... $50 for the starter boxset plus dice, rulers, etc.... but building a larger army gets expensive.)



b) (in my opinion. oYou mileage may vary) not that good a game. It has some problems (ok a lot of problems).


Again, that's why you play it with proxy models first. To see if it suits your style.

The game is not perfect by a long shot, but it can still be fun to play with friends. Worth *trying,* IMO.



c) The whole GW ethos is very...impersonal (inpersonal, unpersonal?).

Snipping for length; actually, you're right, most GW stores suck to be in. I agree. It's even worse if you're a girl, where most of the sales clerks ask you if you're "shopping for your boyfriend" or try to sell models to your boobs. I know it sounds like I'm spewing stereotypes, but if you ever wanted to know where that stereotype came from, check out GW stores.

However, you don't ever need to enter a GW store ever in your life to play a GW game. Most local game stores sell GW products and hold their own Warhammer and 40K events. You can order models online.



(Note, take this with a pinch of salt, as I really don't like GW, but try finding your local wargaming club, and seeing what they play, so you know you'll ahve someone to paly agaisnt with whatever game you buy. Of course if they all play only GW games then this is all for moot.)

An important note: I notice your location is "England." The OP's location is "New Orleans."

My understanding wargaming in general is MUCH bigger in the UK than the US, so maybe you guys actually have large numbers of wargaming clubs that aren't Games Workshops based.

It depends on where you are in the US, of course, but most likely, in the US, if there even IS a local wargaming club, it's probably going to be a 40K club. Honestly, I wish it wasn't the case, but I've learned the hard way that pretty much if you want to play wargames and find lots of other people to play with and you live in the States, 40k is the most likely option.

That said, of course if the OP lives in an area where he can find players of other wargames, of course those are worth checking out too (I really like Warmachine even if I don't play it very often).

Were-Sandwich, you have some valid points--playing 40K can be *very* expensive and yes, GW staff are, in general, jerks. But there are fairly easy ways around those things if you like the idea of the game itself.

[sikyon]

Actually, even the Tau are quite grey, see, you basically have two choices, Join the Greater Good, or be eliminated by it.

Heck, even that choice they deny some races (read: Vespids) by using mind controling pheromones.

The fact that they appear so well bleached just makes them more insedious.

I'd say there's a true "Black" though, it's called Chaos.
Then, of corse, in the gray-scale world of 40k, there is another option.
Green. Go Orks!
(just kidding, I'd never play 40k Orks... because I have 8k of fantasy... many that still need paint)


Actually, the only non-evil races are arguably Orks and Tyranids. Orks are pretty innocent, actually, even though they love war. But that doesn't make them evil, because they don't really have any malice. Same goes for nids, except maybe genestealer cults. They make things complicated. Still, they could be evil for not caring, but I'm leaning towards neutral, neither evil or good.

Imperium tries to protect their citizens, but the end justifying the means is not really good and virtous.

Eldar, of all kind, only care about themselves and will kill millions of others just to save one of their own.

Tau have the "greater good" but really, it's just join us or die. Actually, many human colonies that do join them end up being sterilized, for the greater good, to control their "rampant human growth rates."

Chaos is primarily evil, but the servents of chaos were once good. Them being corrupted makes them evil, but in many cases it's not totally their own fault. Especially when people don't appreciate them, and even turn on them. For example, Magnus the Red, primarch of the thousand sons, daemon prince and chosen of the changer of ways, tried to warn the emperor of horus but was instead struck down in return.

Necrons are evil, obviously.

Yeah it's grim and dark. There are no good races, just different kinds of evil.

[Were-Sandwich]

Snipping for length; actually, you're right, most GW stores suck to be in. I agree. It's even worse if you're a girl, where most of the sales clerks ask you if you're "shopping for your boyfriend" or try to sell models to your boobs. I know it sounds like I'm spewing stereotypes, but if you ever wanted to know where that stereotype came from, check out GW stores.

However, you don't ever need to enter a GW store ever in your life to play a GW game. Most local game stores sell GW products and hold their own Warhammer and 40K events. You can order models online.

Yeah, I got most of my models from a local book store that was run by nerds and sold GW models as a sideline.




An important note: I notice your location is "England." The OP's location is "New Orleans."

My understanding wargaming in general is MUCH bigger in the UK than the US, so maybe you guys actually have large numbers of wargaming clubs that aren't Games Workshops based.

It depends on where you are in the US, of course, but most likely, in the US, if there even IS a local wargaming club, it's probably going to be a 40K club. Honestly, I wish it wasn't the case, but I've learned the hard way that pretty much if you want to play wargames and find lots of other people to play with and you live in the States, 40k is the most likely option.



I've had that experience round my area as well, although there are several Old Guard wargamers at my club who help hold back the tide. One of them introduced me to Full Thrust, which is possibly my favourite gamer, evah. Spaceships, pew pew pew.

For all that I've said about 40K and GW, I quite like the 40K 'verse. The only two things I don't like are Chaos, because I just can't justify to myself half the emperors most loyal troops betraying him at the drop of a hat because Horus showed them a few cool magic tricks (I know its more complicated than that, but thats the gist of it, to me), and the Orks, because they just don't belong; they are basically just ported straight from fantasy for a bit of comic relief.

The problem is, the rules don't reflect any of this. Space Marines should be able to totally pwn any other models in combat, but they tone them down for 'balance' (ie, so you have to buy more). Anyone fighting 'nids should be Screwed Royally. Boltguns should do more than Strength 4, AP 5 (Its a frickin' rocket powered grenade that explodes inside you). Ranges are much too short. The turn sequence is screwed up. Stat lines belong in skirmish games etc. Scale.

Also, whilst I don't like GW, I have a vast respect for them. To set up this little monopoly of theirs must have taken some serious busniess skills. Also, whilst ridiculously expensive, their unit sets are both multi-part plastic (my favourite medium) and really well sculpted. So I just buy them off Ebay at a discount, then use them to play other games. I found a Stargrunt II-40K 'conversion' that works really well.

So, I guess GW are a neseccary evil.

[Dragor]

I'm swaying on your side here, Were-Sandwich. I hate my local store. Hate it. The staff are entirely too over-enthusiastic and end up being more of a hazard than a help to my gaming experience.

I like painting more than playing. I've lost quite a lot of games in my time, so I spend most of my time at the painting table. For this I get criticized by the staff for 'not getting up and playing'. Well, excuse me for doing one of the major parts of the hobby.

But I digress. WH40K, while expensive, is brilliant fun and most players will be happy to lend you a hand. Just check that your local store (if you have one) isn't full of A'holes first.

[puppyavenger]

However, I think that GW needs to make more "good" aligned armies. In my experience, everybody always plays evil armies, and us good folk get swamped. Good meaning the Imperium, Evil meaning, unfortunately, everything else.

NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

remorse is a pretty big part of good methinks, also thhe imperium, have a even bigger version of "tau syndrom", that is, 'Your not human either become a slave/weapon/disection lessson or be exterminated as a threat to the galaxy.

[Bryn]

As a suggestion, before buying any models, buy the rulebook and the Codex for the army you're interested in, since you find out a lot more from these books about the background than on the GW site. If you like what you read in the book, then you can start getting models: get two Troops choices and an HQ choice (such as two Genestealer boxes and a Broodlord for a Tyranid army, costing $77 from the US online store*) and then build up over time from there.

Tyranids are a good army, and they give you a good variety of options for different playstyles. Tyranids are extremely powerful in close combat, especially with units such as Genestealers, but they can also be successful at shooting. They can have enormous swarms of hundreds of models, with Tyranid Gaunts being some of the cheapest troops in the game, or they can have small numbers of powerful monstrous creatures. They also have the whole 'mysterious insectoid alien' thing going for them. If you play Starcraft, they are in many ways quite similar to the Zerg, as well as the aliens from the Alien series (or so I am told, having never actually seen those films).

Tyranids have good models, and many of their units are plastic and thus heavily customisable. The Tyranid Carnifex is especially interesting, and certainly looks imposing on the battlefield. In addition, tyranids have plenty of Forge World (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/QUATERMASTERS_STORE_TYRANIDS_13.html) support - be warned, however, that Forge World's amazing models somehow manage to make Games Workshop's exorbitant prices look cheap. (Forge World is a subsidiary of Games Workshop that produces very detailed and large-scale resin models)

Regarding Dark Eldar, I generally agree with what everyone else has said about them, but if you play DE your army will certainly be unique - I know no Dark Eldar players. In any case, they are hedonistic, depraved, and obsessed with torture and pain. The Torturer's Tale (http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkeldar/torturer/) gives quite a lot of information about them.

Book-wise, for some very interesting and detailed information about the Tyranids, Forge World's Imperial Armour IV and the Black Library's Xenology.

[Albub]

remorse is a pretty big part of good methinks, also thhe imperium, have a even bigger version of "tau syndrom", that is, 'Your not human either become a slave/weapon/disection lessson or be exterminated as a threat to the galaxy.

Because they are a threat to the galaxy. Everyone but the Tau have unconditionally blown the crud out of any imperial anything that they see and ask questions later, with the exception of the Eldar, who ask question before anything happens, and then take the most complicated path to blowing the crud out of imperial anything.

oh yeah, I'd say go tyranids for now if you've narrowed it to the two of them, wait on the Dark Eldar until they get their codex next year.

[Jakezor]

Orks are pretty innocent, actually, even though they love war. But that doesn't make them evil, because they don't really have any malice. Same goes for nids, except maybe genestealer cults. They make things complicated.


Orks are "innocent" in the way a sociopath, pyromaniac child with a inferiority complex is innocent. They're creatures governed by their impulses, and those impulses don't happen to be friendly. Evil? well, not really. Good? defiantly not. hence in gray scale, they're the green.

'Nids are really just animals. The Hungry Hungry Hippos of 40k.
Argue what you will about Genestealer cults, they, like all tyranids, are just emulating the creatures their genetic material came from (humans, probably space marines to be more specific)
So I guess on a gray-scale you could call them a "Red".


Because they are a threat to the galaxy. Everyone but the Tau have unconditionally blown the crud out of any imperial anything that they see and ask questions later, with the exception of the Eldar, who ask question before anything happens, and then take the most complicated path to blowing the crud out of imperial anything.

Its also worth noting that, as soon as the Imperial eye was distracted elsewhere (Mecaggre) the Tau snatched up as many planets as they possibly could while the defenses were "down"


But anyway, To the OP, you might want to check out: http://fightingtigersofveda.com/orcboy9.html
which gives "rating" to all the armies of 40k on a variety of categories, such as price, easy of play, model availability, and etcetera.

[Lord_Butters_I]

To avoid mind bending prices, make your own minis. Just get the stats off the internetz and make 2d cutouts of minis yourself.

[Emrylon]

Magnus the Red, primarch of the thousand sons, daemon prince and chosen of the changer of ways, tried to warn the emperor of horus but was instead struck down in return.



hehehe Magnus got owned by Leman Russ....


Anyway I'll agree with what everyone else has said. unfortunatly warhammer is very expensive and you need to know you are going to like it before you buy much.

As with the army choice, have a look at every army and choose the concept you like best don't worry about how strong people say they are because all armies are equal in their own way I would suggest getting an army that has a recently updated codex though as it fits in with the newest addition of the rules more easily