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Iku Rex
2007-12-06, 01:31 AM
I was pondering trap defenses, and it occurred to me: are characters out of combat flat-footed? In other words, are you always flat-footed against traps?

Common sense would suggest that the answer to the first question is "yes", but strictly speaking the flat-footed condition involves combat and initiative rolls. Traps don't require initiative rolls. This matters because if you're flat-footed you can't use immediate actions. (A big deal for some martial adepts, for example.) You'll also lose your Dex modifier to AC.

I'm also wondering if traps with attack rolls strike as invisible attackers if the target is unaware of the trap or the trap is hidden from plain view.

Any clear RAW answers would be appreciated.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-06, 01:37 AM
I would say that one is not generally aware of a trap, and thus you would be caught flat-footed. After all, if you were aware of the trip, would you have set it off? The two exceptions I see to this are when a rogue sets off a trap while attempting to disarm it (the rogue is aware of the trap in this instance), or when intentionally triggering a trap.

chionophile
2007-12-06, 02:10 AM
Common-sense wise, I'd say it's very possible to be not flat footed while you set off a trap. One of the best ways to get rid of a trap (of any kind) is to spring it. If you're aware of a trap as you set it off, it becomes much easier to avoid. This would only be the case for those very dexterous characters who have no ability to disable traps. Or for the ones with a high fort\con who just suck it up and take it, but that's not really relevant.

brian c
2007-12-06, 02:14 AM
I would say that one is not generally aware of a trap, and thus you would be caught flat-footed. After all, if you were aware of the trip, would you have set it off? The two exceptions I see to this are when a rogue sets off a trap while attempting to disarm it (the rogue is aware of the trap in this instance), or when intentionally triggering a trap.

Agreed.

For most traps though, it doesn't matter. The only effect of being flatfooted is that you don't get your Dex to AC. If the trap allows a save, there's no difference; if the trap has an attack roll then it matters. Not a whole lot of traps have attack rolls though, just falling portcullises, crossbow-in-the-wall and that sort of thing

tyckspoon
2007-12-06, 02:15 AM
You could assign an initiative value to the trap and have its potential targets roll initiative when it goes off (you hear something go 'click' under your foot. Throw initiative!) to see if they can spot the source of the danger quickly enough to do something. If they beat the trap's initiative, they aren't flat-footed; if they don't, the trap gets an effective surprise round on whoever it's attacking and the victim is flat-footed.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-06, 02:17 AM
For most traps though, it doesn't matter. The only effect of being flatfooted is that you don't get your Dex to AC. If the trap allows a save, there's no difference; if the trap has an attack roll then it matters. Not a whole lot of traps have attack rolls though, just falling portcullises, crossbow-in-the-wall and that sort of thing

Martial Adepts care. The Diamond Mind discipline, for instance, has a lot of immediate actions that let you replace saving throws with concentration checks.

brian c
2007-12-06, 02:24 AM
Martial Adepts care. The Diamond Mind discipline, for instance, has a lot of immediate actions that let you replace saving throws with concentration checks.

Ah, true, hadn't thought of that. Okay, well in a core game it doesn't matter very much. If you have anyone who can use an immediate action to affect their saving throw, then it can matter to them a lot more.

SofS
2007-12-06, 03:17 AM
Somewhat-related question, then: can you use the Dodge feat or a similar targeted defensive ability against a trap if you know where it is? I should think so, but I could be wrong.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-06, 03:20 AM
I think dodge requries a creature, by RAW.

EDit- Ok, it requires an opponent, which is not technically defined as a creature anywhere, and it makes sense, so Yes, you can declare a trap you are aware of as your dodge 'buddy'.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-06, 03:47 AM
Common sense would suggest that the answer to the first question is "yes", but strictly speaking the flat-footed condition involves combat and initiative rolls. Traps don't require initiative rolls.

The main reason traps don't require initiative rolls is that it would be pointless in most cases.
However, if a trap has an automatic reset after a certain number of rounds it could be necessary to note on which count it resets, at least in combat.


If a trap needs an attack roll to hit, is the attack against your normal AC or flat-footed AC?

Technically speaking, any attack made against you before
you’ve taken your first action in combat, or any attack made by an attacker you can’t see, uses your flat-footed AC. Most trap attacks fall into one or both of those categories, and thus by a strict reading of the rules should treat their target as flat-footed.
Of course, any trap that doesn’t fall into either of those
categories would use your normal AC. A wall scythe trap that activates every round of combat wouldn’t treat its targets as flat-footed once they’d taken an action.



I'm also wondering if traps with attack rolls strike as invisible attackers if the target is unaware of the trap or the trap is hidden from plain view.


I think that they generally would not, unless perhaps they have an aiming function, which most do not have.

Curmudgeon
2007-12-06, 03:48 AM
It would seem to make sense that the trap sense ability would help you avoid being flat-footed against traps. This isn't the case, though the classes that get trap sense (Rogue, Barbarian) also get uncanny dodge, which does help you avoid losing your DEX bonus to AC when a trap springs on you.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-06, 03:51 AM
It would seem to make sense that the trap sense ability would help you avoid being flat-footed against traps. This isn't the case, though the classes that get trap sense (Rogue, Barbarian) also get uncanny dodge, which does help you avoid losing your DEX bonus to AC when a trap springs on you.

Yes, Trap Sense without Uncanny Dodge would be almost pointless, so that is important to remember when homebrewing at least.

Ossian
2007-12-06, 05:33 AM
As for reflex saves, it should count. I would negate the DEX bonus to the save if the target was flat footed, unless he had uncanny dodge.

Also, traps that strike from nowhere and shoot a dart at you should be a bit more effective than a mere 1d6 x2 (IF it crits). I normally augment the threat range depending on the trap, i.e. where it is set and the size/stance of the target. Imagine a halfling was walking in a semi-crouched defensive stance. If the dart trap set there by the ancient azcan engineer was meant to shoot a dart into a man's chest, the halfling wouldn't even have to roll. If the target was a man of avg. height instead, the light crossbow should threaten a crit on a 17-20, or possibly deal some additional "sneak attack" damage, 2 or 3d6 would be ok.

O.

Jack Zander
2007-12-06, 05:38 AM
As for reflex saves, it should count. I would negate the DEX bonus to the save if the target was flat footed, unless he had uncanny dodge.

Also, traps that strike from nowhere and shoot a dart at you should be a bit more effective than a mere 1d6 x2 (IF it crits). I normally augment the threat range depending on the trap, i.e. where it is set and the size/stance of the target. Imagine a halfling was walking in a semi-crouched defensive stance. If the dart trap set there by the ancient azcan engineer was meant to shoot a dart into a man's chest, the halfling wouldn't even have to roll. If the target was a man of avg. height instead, the light crossbow should threaten a crit on a 17-20, or possibly deal some additional "sneak attack" damage, 2 or 3d6 would be ok.

O.

Darts generally don't deal much damage and are meant for poisons. But I see what you mean. Most of those crossbow bolt or arrow traps have a good chance of not killing your average 1st level warrior or commoner even.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-06, 05:41 AM
As for reflex saves, it should count. I would negate the DEX bonus to the save if the target was flat footed, unless he had uncanny dodge.

"Should" as in that is how the rules should have been written or "should" as in your interpretation of the RAW?

RAW, you keep your dexterity modifier to saves even when caught flat-footed. (You probably new that, but I just wanted to avoid any confusion for others who might be reading.:smallsmile: )

Shadowdweller
2007-12-06, 05:47 AM
Any clear RAW answers would be appreciated.
There are no clear answers in the RAW. The Sage has answered the question in the past to the effect that, yes, one is flat-footed and the response may have made its way into the FAQ.

When DMing I personally run things as follows: PCs are considered flat-footed against traps whose effects they have not personally observed.

Saph
2007-12-06, 08:56 AM
For the ToB users, it's worth pointing out that how you answer this question has a massive effect on how useful the Diamond Mind defences are.

If you can't use Moment of Perfect Mind until you've taken your first action in combat (regardless of whether you're in combat or not) then it becomes much much less useful, as lots of things can hit you outside the combat sequence - and if you get hit by something like a Wail of the Banshee trap (which is only CR 10, for some ridiculous reason), it's probably the difference between life and death.

- Saph

Fixer
2007-12-06, 09:01 AM
I was pondering trap defenses, and it occurred to me: are characters out of combat flat-footed? In other words, are you always flat-footed against traps?

Common sense would suggest that the answer to the first question is "yes", but strictly speaking the flat-footed condition involves combat and initiative rolls. Traps don't require initiative rolls. This matters because if you're flat-footed you can't use immediate actions. (A big deal for some martial adepts, for example.) You'll also lose your Dex modifier to AC.

I'm also wondering if traps with attack rolls strike as invisible attackers if the target is unaware of the trap or the trap is hidden from plain view.

Any clear RAW answers would be appreciated.
I have never seen a RAW answer. My interpretation of this is that the traps somehow have a click, whir, or the character notices that something is wrong just in time to be not flat-footed. If the character was COMPLETELY unaware, they wouldn't even be allowed Reflex saving throws against traps.

Character: *steps on a trap-activation rock, which slides down* "Trap!" *dives away*
Party: *Dives for cover AWAY from the character who set off the trap*

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-06, 10:11 AM
I have never seen a RAW answer. My interpretation of this is that the traps somehow have a click, whir, or the character notices that something is wrong just in time to be not flat-footed. If the character was COMPLETELY unaware, they wouldn't even be allowed Reflex saving throws against traps.

Character: *steps on a trap-activation rock, which slides down* "Trap!" *dives away*
Party: *Dives for cover AWAY from the character who set off the trap*

As far as I know, you don't lose your Reflex save when flat-footed. The only thing being flat-footed causes is you lose your Dex (and other related bonuses) to AC.

There is nothing as far as I can tell that involves you needing awareness of an effect in order to get a save against it. Otherwise a single invisible spellcaster could defeat any opponent.

I don't think it really needs to be all that spelled out by RAW. Assuming the party was unaware of the trap, the trap goes. Since it is effectively the start of combat, the trap goes first, either attacking, or forcing a save. Since no PC has acted, they are flat-footed. Which is where having Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense come in handy.

My own method of resolving a trap combat (or combat that is going to draw in nearby monsters) is I resolve the trap attack or save. If the trap has an automatic reset of 1 round, I treat it as the top of the initiative stack. I then have the PCs roll for initiative and they get their actions before the trap goes again. If other critters (or PCs for that matter) join the combat on subsequent rounds, they come in at the top of the stack (before the trap) as normal.

Ossian
2007-12-06, 10:35 AM
"Should" as in that is how the rules should have been written or "should" as in your interpretation of the RAW?
RAW, you keep your dexterity modifier to saves even when caught flat-footed. (You probably new that, but I just wanted to avoid any confusion for others who might be reading.:smallsmile: )

Good point. My take is that I house rule that you lose your DEX bonus to reflex saves when FF. This way, experience still counts (REF saves go up with levels, for some classes better than for other) but if it's a swift explosion, like the equivalent of stepping on a landmine, I'd try to make things tougher for the player. This is because I am taking into consideration that a higher level character is going to have a number of things that will help him more than it's healthy, namely stat boosts, buffing, items, special qualities and so on.

The rule was tailored on Indiana Jones exploring the temple of doom, but it seem to hardly ever be the case. There are way more tanks, jedis, spidermen with precognition reflexes and rings of protection that give you the equivalent of a deflector shield going through such adversities than archeologists in plainclothes.

As for the dart, yeah, it might just be intended to scratch and poison you, but if it's a real crossbow dart, with steel tip and heavy shaft, shot from nowhere at point blank (AND poisoned) it is supposed to stop you or at least to injure you grievously. OK, it's D&D, but still....

The idea would be that players will say "heck...the place mustbe filled with Thor knows which and how many traps, we risk our hides if we even enter level 1..." rather than "Hmmm...ok, I got 40 HP, dex 18 and very high reflex progression. If we get hurt by some of the traps the cleric can still heal us before the final mummy encounter at the bottom of the pyramid. Let's stride in proudly and boldly..."

Iku Rex
2007-12-06, 03:23 PM
[FAQ quote]Ah. Thanks. That's a big help. Google failed me and I never thought to search the FAQ. Of course, the first time I went looking for your quote I searched for "traps" and couldn't find it, so I may not have found it on my own anyway.

I don't think I agree with the FAQ's reasoning though. The rules are

At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. (Combat Chapter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#flatFooted))


A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. (Condition Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted))

Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. (Glossary)

The definitions all involve battles, combat and initiative rolls, and a trap is not a battle. Pretty much every character has been in a battle at some time or another, so "not yet acted during a combat" doesn't work as a purely literal interpretation either. ("What do you mean I'm flat-footed against that trap - my character killed an orc three years ago?!") It has to be a specific combat/battle.

(The FAQ also claims that an "attack made by an attacker you can't see" treats you as flat-footed, which looks an awful lot like the common misconception that loss of Dex modifier to AC means you're flat-footed.)

Anyway, I suppose the FAQ makes sense in some ways. But I do find it a bit puzzling that avoiding traps is so much easier if they suddenly spring while you're busy fighting for your life than if you're moving cautiously through a dungeon.

It also has some odd effects. Casting feather fall is an immediate action (CArc), and so it can't be done while you're flat-footed. The spell is only usable while you're in mid-combat. The Boots of Sidestepping (Dungeonscape) specifically mention avoiding traps, yet they require an immediate action to use. The MIC has several items that are a lot less useful if you can't use immediate actions out of combat. Examples include the Chronocharm of the Celestial Wanderer (reroll spot/listen) and Chronocharm of the Laughing Rogue (reroll disable device).

Swordguy
2007-12-06, 08:51 PM
Would a trap not count as going during a surprise round where all other parties are considered "suprised" (not aware of the other party's [in this case the trap] presence) and thus not eligible to act (and thus being flat-footed)?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-07, 02:45 AM
Ah. Thanks. That's a big help. Google failed me and I never thought to search the FAQ. Of course, the first time I went looking for your quote I searched for "traps" and couldn't find it, so I may not have found it on my own anyway.

I don't think I agree with the FAQ's reasoning though. The rules are

At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. (Combat Chapter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#flatFooted))


A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. (Condition Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted))

Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. (Glossary)

The definitions all involve battles, combat and initiative rolls, and a trap is not a battle. Pretty much every character has been in a battle at some time or another, so "not yet acted during a combat" doesn't work as a purely literal interpretation either. ("What do you mean I'm flat-footed against that trap - my character killed an orc three years ago?!") It has to be a specific combat/battle.

(The FAQ also claims that an "attack made by an attacker you can't see" treats you as flat-footed, which looks an awful lot like the common misconception that loss of Dex modifier to AC means you're flat-footed.)

Anyway, I suppose the FAQ makes sense in some ways. But I do find it a bit puzzling that avoiding traps is so much easier if they suddenly spring while you're busing fighting for your life than if you're moving cautiously through a dungeon.

I agree that the references to combat etc. makes things less clear than they could be, but I still think it is the most reasonable interpretation that a lso makes the most sense.

In regards to springing a trap in the midst of combat you are still struck by an invisible attacker and would lose your dex bonus, although as I tried to say earlier the trap does not get a bonus on attack rolls. (I assumed that was what you referred to earlier, I apologize if it seemed lilke I did nont think you would lose dex)


It also has some odd effects. Casting feather fall is an immediate action (CArc), and so it can't be done while you're flat-footed. The spell is only usable while you're in mid-combat. The Boots of Sidestepping (Dungeonscape) specifically mention avoiding traps, yet they require an immediate action to use. The MIC has several items that are a lot less useful if you can't use immediate actions out of combat. Examples include the Chronocharm of the Celestial Wanderer (reroll spot/listen) and Chronocharm of the Laughing Rogue (reroll disable device).


If you are walking over a cliff you are not flat-footed in regard to that encounter and are thus able to cast Feather Fall.
I don't have MIC here, so I cannot comment on those items, but I would not be surprised if things were not thought through.:smallamused:

Riffington
2007-12-07, 10:39 AM
RAW, my understanding is that you retain your Dex bonus to your reflex save even when dead.
On the other hand, common sense suggests that if you lose your Dex bonus to AC, you should fail all reflex saves.
Personally I do it on a case by case basis.

MrNexx
2007-12-07, 10:48 AM
I would say you can be counted as not flat-footed if you are aware of the trap and triggering it deliberately, and I would allow someone to apply Dodge against it in that case; in this case, triggering the trap would be your combat action, and everyone else is delaying (assuming, of course, the person who triggers it says "Everyone ready?" and doesn't just trigger it when he's ready). If it goes off because you triggered it, then you are flat-footed.

Iku Rex
2007-12-07, 11:07 AM
If you are walking over a cliff you are not flat-footed in regard to that encounter and are thus able to cast Feather Fall.How do you figure? Unless you've "taken your first action in combat" (FAQ) you're flat-footed. Walking of a cliff is not combat. Even if the DM allows it, rolling for initiative as you go over the cliff could be fatal. In fact, now that I think about it, you can't cast spells at all out of combat.

This may seem like a silly attempt at rules-lawyering (and it pretty much is), but if PCs can simply declare themselves to be in an initiative order what's stopping them from doing it all the time?

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 11:25 AM
I agree with the theory that you are flatfooted, unless you're not only aware of the trap, but say that you're "ready to respond to the trap."

We had a cross-plane portal that we had to activate in our last session, using a code phrase. It was an anagram with a missing word, and we took a few guesses until we got it right. An incorrect guess resulted in a disintegrate ray directed at the person who made the guess.

So, we got our ranger/scout/dervish with a Touch AC of somewhere in the 30s while dancing and skirmishing, to start dancing and skirmishing prior to any attempt speak a code phrase.

The ray hit him the first time (Natural 20 on the attack roll), but I had a Protective Ward on him, so he passed his save. The second one we counterspelled. The next 3, he was able to dodge, although one destroyed a table he was using for cover.

So I'd argue that, a trap that catches you suprised will catch you flatfooted. A trap you're ready for, will not.

Riffington
2007-12-07, 11:32 AM
but if PCs can simply declare themselves to be in an initiative order what's stopping them from doing it all the time?

Fatigue? Combat readiness is tiring.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-07, 11:47 AM
The definitions all involve battles, combat and initiative rolls, and a trap is not a battle.
No, but it is an encounter, which is why it has a CR and why the PCs get experience.

Also, Dungeonscape does clarify traps somewhat, and recommends giving traps Initiative modifiers equal to 1/2 their CR.

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 12:04 PM
This may seem like a silly attempt at rules-lawyering (and it pretty much is), but if PCs can simply declare themselves to be in an initiative order what's stopping them from doing it all the time?

A good DM would not allow this. Or he would require constant concentration checks to prevent the players from becoming bored, and letting their guard down.

Draz74
2007-12-07, 12:07 PM
Yes, Trap Sense without Uncanny Dodge would be almost pointless, so that is important to remember when homebrewing at least.

Except that Trap Sense is such a boring and specialized ability that no homebrew class ever gets it. :smalltongue:


Also, Dungeonscape does clarify traps somewhat, and recommends giving traps Initiative modifiers equal to 1/2 their CR.

Hmmm. That grates on my senses a little bit. Initiative is, otherwise, one of the least-scaling rolls in the game, so having it scale with CR seems dangerous. Like, specifically, a 1st-level Rogue probably has a very good chance of beating a CR 1 trap in initiative, and can simply move out of the way of its attack, therefore "auto-making" his Ref save.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-07, 12:21 PM
Hmmm. That grates on my senses a little bit. Initiative is, otherwise, one of the least-scaling rolls in the game, so having it scale with CR seems dangerous. Like, specifically, a 1st-level Rogue probably has a very good chance of beating a CR 1 trap in initiative, and can simply move out of the way of its attack, therefore "auto-making" his Ref save.

But does he know where it's coming from if it hasn't fired yet? Chances are, no, especially if there are multiple potential attack points. Further, traps don't have feats or Dex scores, so really their Initiatives don't scale all that much with CR increase. To top it off, traps are very rarely used as a full encounter and usually run at a much lower CR than the party's ECL.

There are instances, of course, where that is not the case: spell turret on the other side of a lake of lava with short towers for the party to hop from one to the other to get to the turret, for instance.

fendrin
2007-12-07, 01:31 PM
Fax Celestis has it right: treat a trap as a creature and it all falls into place.

The problem is the concept of 'battle'. Instead of thinking in terms of 'battle' and 'non-battle', I think of 'aware of danger' and 'unaware of danger'. It has nothing to do with combat rounds... theoretically, all game time is divided into rounds, it's just a heck of a lot easier to ignore them for many situations.

I personally like the idea of stating traps out as monsters anyway. I treat them as constructs with a move of 0 and automatic 0 dex bonus to AC. that way if someone wants to bash a trap apart instead of disarming it, I have an AC and HP ready. It also provides a reasonable way to establish things like attack bonus, damage, and save DCs.

Theli
2007-12-07, 02:04 PM
RAW, my understanding is that you retain your Dex bonus to your reflex save even when dead.
On the other hand, common sense suggests that if you lose your Dex bonus to AC, you should fail all reflex saves.
Personally I do it on a case by case basis.

I don't know. I see the whole point of reflex saves as reacting to the unexpected. So being quicker should help, even if you weren't immediately aware of what you were reacting to.

Fighteer
2007-12-07, 02:24 PM
RAW, my understanding is that you retain your Dex bonus to your reflex save even when dead.
On the other hand, common sense suggests that if you lose your Dex bonus to AC, you should fail all reflex saves.
Personally I do it on a case by case basis.
A dead creature is an object. Unattended objects don't get saving throws.

Per RAW, creatures may always make a Reflex saving throw, whether they are aware of the effect or not, unless physically restrained or otherwise incapable of movement. Being flat-footed does not penalize saving throws in any way.

Unless you are specifically aware of and prepared for a trap prior to triggering it, logically you must be considered flat-footed when it first goes off.

As for the rules technically preventing immediate actions such as feather fall in response to a non-combat threat such as falling off a cliff, I can't imagine that's the RAI.

Riffington
2007-12-07, 05:50 PM
I don't know. I see the whole point of reflex saves as reacting to the unexpected. So being quicker should help, even if you weren't immediately aware of what you were reacting to.

Yeah, but that sentences is still true if you replace the words "reflex saves" with "adding dex to AC".

Fax Celestis
2007-12-07, 06:00 PM
As for the rules technically preventing immediate actions such as feather fall in response to a non-combat threat such as falling off a cliff, I can't imagine that's the RAI.

Funnily, both feather fall and nerveskitter have been errated to be immediate actions usable even while flat-footed.

Iku Rex
2007-12-07, 06:31 PM
Funnily, both feather fall and nerveskitter have been errated to be immediate actions usable even while flat-footed.Where is this errata on feather fall?

Saph
2007-12-07, 06:46 PM
Hmmm. That grates on my senses a little bit. Initiative is, otherwise, one of the least-scaling rolls in the game, so having it scale with CR seems dangerous. Like, specifically, a 1st-level Rogue probably has a very good chance of beating a CR 1 trap in initiative, and can simply move out of the way of its attack, therefore "auto-making" his Ref save.

This ruling makes Initiative rolls, and traps in general, a LOT more dangerous.

Your 10th-level Warblade gets hit by a Wail of the Banshee trap. If you win initiative, you get to use Moment of Perfect Mind and/or move out the way, and are almost guaranteed to live. If you lose initiative, you get zapped and are almost guaranteed to die. Yeek.

For a spellcaster, I guess that means you need to be packing the nerveskitter spell and a half-dozen 1st-level pearls of power.

- Saph

Fax Celestis
2007-12-07, 07:15 PM
This ruling makes Initiative rolls, and traps in general, a LOT more dangerous.

Your 10th-level Warblade gets hit by a Wail of the Banshee trap. If you win initiative, you get to use Moment of Perfect Mind and/or move out the way, and are almost guaranteed to live. If you lose initiative, you get zapped and are almost guaranteed to die. Yeek.

For a spellcaster, I guess that means you need to be packing the nerveskitter spell and a half-dozen 1st-level pearls of power.

- Saph

The Wail of a Banshee trap is mis-CRed, which makes it a problem with the trap, not with the trap-Initiative issue.

MeklorIlavator
2007-12-07, 07:19 PM
The Wail of a Banshee trap is mis-CRed, which makes it a problem with the trap, not with the trap-Initiative issue.
Very true. My friend once had one that pretty much took out the entire party. Luckily for us, when he saw what happened, he reconnect what had happened, and substituted a much lower level trap.