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Laurellien
2007-12-06, 01:52 AM
My question is this: When you disable or bypass a trap, you get experience points. Do you get the same amount of experience points if you overcome the challenge just by setting the trap off and continuing through?

tyckspoon
2007-12-06, 02:07 AM
Yes. You got through the 'encounter'; it doesn't matter very much how you did it. Setting off the trap and bulling through the effects (or backing away a safe distance and setting it off with a summoned critter/ten-foot pole) is as valid as disarming it, just as talking your way out of a normal encounter wins it just as much as taking some damage in the process of killing all the monsters does.

brian c
2007-12-06, 02:08 AM
I don't know the exact rule for this, but I would say it depends. If you get shot by an arrow or hit by something, I wouldn't award XP for that. If the trap creates some obstacle that you can then bypass, I'd award XP. So most of the time, no.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-06, 02:21 AM
It seems pretty lame to get a reward for blundering into a deathtrap and surviving. Sure, technically your character will learn from the experience, but it doesn't seem heroic enough for XP. It's like getting KO'd by nonlethal damage: Yes, you bypassed the fight, but you also lost. Or seeing a dragon, running away, and coming back for the loot after your party's finished the hard-won fight.

tyckspoon
2007-12-06, 02:30 AM
It seems pretty lame to get a reward for blundering into a deathtrap and surviving. Sure, technically your character will learn from the experience, but it doesn't seem heroic enough for XP. It's like getting KO'd by nonlethal damage: Yes, you bypassed the fight, but you also lost. Or seeing a dragon, running away, and coming back for the loot after your party's finished the hard-won fight.

3.5's trap system is pretty lame in general. I would compare choosing to run through the trap to something more like.. oh, say some enemy caster puts up a Wall of Fire or a Blade Barrier in a bid to stop the party from getting to some MacGuffin. There's a number of things you could do to get to the MacGuffin, and gritting your teeth and sucking up the damage to just run through the interposing threat is a valid choice. Your goal in the situation isn't to dispel the wall (or safely bypass the trap), it's just to get to the other side. Any choice that gets you to the other side has won the situation. Some choices are better than others (ie, dispel the Wall or disarm the trap) but all that achieve the goal of having the party more or less safely on the other side qualify as defeating the encounter.

Townopolis
2007-12-06, 03:02 AM
It depends, of course. In general, I give XP if the PCs make a conscious decision regarding their efforts. For Example:

Goons jump out and knock the party unconscious before they can react: No XP
PCs get ambushed and fight off the ambushers: XP
Goons ambush party and win after several rounds: XP
Rogue springs a trap he didn't notice: No XP
Rogue sees a trap and has the barbarian spring it instead of disarming it: XP
NPC bluffs a PC, PC later finds out: No XP
NPC tries to bluff a PC, PC catches it and calls them on it: XP

However, I wouldn't generally give XP for avoiding the encounter, but that also depends.

Goons ambush PCs, party runs away: No XP
Rogue spots trap, party decides not to head down that hall: No XP
Rogue gets caught sneaking around, flees until the guard looses him: XP

It's more a judgement call than anything.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-06, 04:55 AM
Rogue spots trap, party decides not to head down that hall: No XP
Rogue gets caught sneaking around, flees until the guard looses him: XPThis is the only one I really disagreed with. in the first case, the rogue was successful at his task, saved the party some trouble, and isn't rewarded. In the second case, he survives his own mistake because he's faster, and gets XP for it. That doesn't seem right. Consider that in the first instance, the party is doing the smart thing. If they were idiots and decided to spring the trap anyways, then they would get a better reward than they do for avoiding the spears of their enemies completely.

Jack Zander
2007-12-06, 04:59 AM
RAW says you do. Most DMs say you don't.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-06, 05:02 AM
I say you don't learn anything by not going down the hallway. Where is the learning experience here? You aren't overcoming any obstacles (unless finding another way around is a pain, and it requires significant effort, or finding a secret door, in order to avoid the trapped hallway. In that case I would give xp for the trapped hallway).

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-06, 05:41 AM
Except the rogue got XP for running away. If he had been more skilled in the first place, he wouldn't have been caught. Think about it this way, he is practicing his sneaking. That should get him XP, because it is a class feature that takes skill to use, and per DnD rules, his entire party gets the XP, just like if the barbarian had one-shotted an entire encounter with great cleave. I think they should get more XP from that than from walking into the trap, whether knowingly or unknowingly, because that is the utcome that is most beneficial for the party at the end of the day. If they just walk into a trap for the hell of it, most of my DM's would rule that you get no XP, simply because that is stupid and out-of-character and you should not be rewarded for that.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-06, 06:07 AM
I only award XP encounters that were a challenge. If the barbarian one shots the encounter in one round with great cleave, where is the learning experience? No risk, no reward. You learn best from your mistakes.

If you decide not to go down a corridor because you think it is trapped, you aren't learning anything. If, on the other hand, you have to find another way, perhaps through a secret tunnel, in order to get around the trap, it is a learning experience, and I would assign XP for the avoided traps. If you survive walking down the dead end corridor full of traps, I give XP for that, unless I get the general impression that you are walking into traps for the XP (which is metagaming). I also reward XP for disarmed traps, if there was any chance of setting off the trap in the attempt.

SoD
2007-12-06, 06:10 AM
I would say that if you knew the trap was there, and you intentionally set it off (running down a corridoor you know is trapped, to save the person at the other end) then yes. If you accidentally set it off whilst trying to disarm it...no. You don't get XP for when you make a bad attack roll and accidentally throw your sword away. If you bypass it...yes. If you blunder into it by accident...no.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-06, 06:13 AM
You don't get XP for when you make a bad attack roll and accidentally throw your sword away. If you bypass it...yes. If you blunder into it by accident...no.

Yes, you do, provided that you manage to defeat the encounter anyway. You don't get extra XP for fumbling, but you don't lose any XP either. Learning from your mistakes is a pretty straightforward concept.

Dark Dork
2007-12-06, 06:17 AM
I only award XP encounters that were a challenge. If the barbarian one shots the encounter in one round with great cleave, where is the learning experience? No risk, no reward. You learn best from your mistakes.

If a barbarian could do that, it is likely the EL was too low to give any xp. If the EL was high enough, it would require some really good dice rolls or being in just the right place at just the right time. Creating such a situation would warrent xp. I'd say I'd reward some lucky dice rolls anyway, just cos it's simpler, if you stick to the encounter table, you can't go far wrong.

Shadowdweller
2007-12-06, 06:34 AM
My question is this: When you disable or bypass a trap, you get experience points. Do you get the same amount of experience points if you overcome the challenge just by setting the trap off and continuing through?
You gain experience either way, and any DM who pays a shred of attention to game balance or the ruleset judges it in exactly the same manner. The reason: The relative threat posed by traps scales very rapidly in comparison with CR. One experiences instadeath traps around CR 6 (Slay Living). A Mordenkainen's Disjunction trap would only be CR 10. Think about the relative capabilities of characters at those levels.

Traps are regularly life-threatening, particularly if the PCs are already wounded.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-06, 07:19 AM
So according to some people in this thread, traps are only worth xp if you have a Rogue, Cleric with Find Traps or someone else with trapfinding. Yeah, um that sounds fair.

Traps are always worth xp. Let's face it, the xp from the trap is pretty much garbage compared to the level of death it could present.

Also, here is something you could consider:

Party fights and defeats a troll. The troll was hiding and waiting to ambush the party. The party fails to spot him, get ambushed and survive the encouter after killing the troll.

How is that any different from this:
The party defeats a Ungol Dust trap. The trap was well hidden and was set to go off as soon as it detected someone. The party fails to spot the trap, gets dusted and survives the encounter. However, everyone is now making a couple poison saves or losing 1 CHA Primary and 1d6 CHA +1 (permanent) CHA.

I'll tell you what the difference is: Same xp, but the trap works automatically and has the potential to cause PERMANENT ability drain. Sure, it's a low DC, but Sorcerers have crappy Fort saves. The troll could be lethal, but it can be dealt with in a hundred ways, from Diplomacy to Force of Arms to some save or lose spell effect.

The arguement that the PCs get no xp for just blundering into a trap is preposterous, because that same logic then says they get no xp for blundering into an ambush.

Traps give XP - period.

Saph
2007-12-06, 08:50 AM
So according to some people in this thread, traps are only worth xp if you have a Rogue, Cleric with Find Traps or someone else with trapfinding. Yeah, um that sounds fair.

Traps are always worth xp. Let's face it, the xp from the trap is pretty much garbage compared to the level of death it could present.

Yes.

Traps give XP, full stop. It's ridiculous to say that because the rogue flubbed his Disable Device or Search roll, you should get no XP from the encounter. That's like saying that if your first round of attacks on the monster miss and it hits you with its special ability, then you shouldn't get any XP even if you get past it afterwards.

Honestly, if anything I think you should get more XP from springing a trap and surviving than you should from the skillmonkey character disarming it. Which one are you going to learn more from?

- Saph

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 10:21 AM
You're all wrong! :-P

I would argue that, it's not a matter of no XP vs XP, it's a matter of how much XP.

Do something like ...

1) Discovers trap: 200xp
Does not discover trap, but believes one is there: 50xp
2) Springs Trap, targeting a PC: 50xp
Springs Trap, targeting a rock or animal from bag of tricks: 150xp
Disarms Trap: 500xp
Avoids Trap: 200xp
Causes Monster to Spring Trap: 1000xp
3) Party moves through trap without taking damage: 400xp
Party moves through trap, but takes damage: 100xp
Party avoids trap and goes a different route, but this path was mission critical: 0xp
Party avoids trap and goes a different route, and this path was a distraction from the mission: 200xp

Fiery Diamond
2007-12-06, 10:27 AM
As someone else said, RAW says you do. That said, I think a system similar to Craig1f's would be best. Not necessarily those precise numbers, but something like that.



- Fiery Diamond

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-06, 10:33 AM
Yes.

Traps give XP, full stop. It's ridiculous to say that because the rogue flubbed his Disable Device or Search roll, you should get no XP from the encounter. That's like saying that if your first round of attacks on the monster miss and it hits you with its special ability, then you shouldn't get any XP even if you get past it afterwards.

Honestly, if anything I think you should get more XP from springing a trap and surviving than you should from the skillmonkey character disarming it. Which one are you going to learn more from?

- Saph

I don't know that I would agree with that. I think a skillmonkey disarming the trap, or even better setting a bypass so the party can use it tactically against enemies is worth just as much.


You're all wrong! :-P

I would argue that, it's not a matter of no XP vs XP, it's a matter of how much XP.

Do something like ...

1) Discovers trap: 200xp
Does not discover trap, but believes one is there: 50xp
2) Springs Trap, targeting a PC: 50xp
Springs Trap, targeting a rock or animal from bag of tricks: 150xp
Disarms Trap: 500xp
Avoids Trap: 200xp
Causes Monster to Spring Trap: 1000xp
3) Party moves through trap without taking damage: 400xp
Party moves through trap, but takes damage: 100xp
Party avoids trap and goes a different route, but this path was mission critical: 0xp
Party avoids trap and goes a different route, and this path was a distraction from the mission: 200xp

I definately disagree with this, in almost every way. First, it creates way too much paperwork for the DM unless you hand out xp "video-game" style as you fight/defeat stuff.

As for "does not discover trap but believes on is there" that sounds like someone making his Knowledge (Player) check. If the PC makes a Search check, he has to abide by that. Searching multiple times is fine, but in most cases the PCs are most likely taking 20 through the dungeon anyway. If the player suspects a trap, that is all well and good, but most of the time the character would not be. Example: Player "The DM described this section of corridor but not the last hundred and fifty. There must be a Secret Door or Trap here, even though I took 20!"

Saph
2007-12-06, 11:03 AM
I don't know that I would agree with that. I think a skillmonkey disarming the trap, or even better setting a bypass so the party can use it tactically against enemies is worth just as much.

Why?

I mean, let's look at the two cases.

Case 1:

Rogue: "Hey guys, I think there might be a trap here."
Fighter, Wizard, Cleric: "Okay, search it."
. . . (two minutes pass)
Rogue: "Yup, I'm going to study and disarm it now."
. . . (several more minutes pass. Fighter, wizard, and cleric buff their nails.)
Rogue: "Done."

Case 2:

Rogue: "Hey guys, I think there might be a trap here."
Fighter, Wizard, Cleric: "Okay, search it."
. . . (two minutes pass)
Rogue: "Yup, I'm going to study and disarm it now."
. . . (several more minutes pass. Fighter, wizard, and cleric buff their nails.)
Rogue: "Oops."
BOOM!
*Insert saving thows, skill checks, and spells*
Fighter, Wizard, Cleric: "Ow. Well, at least it's gone. Let's go."

In the first case, the fighter, wizard and cleric did nothing except stand around. In the second, they had to roll saving throws, take damage, and use skills. But according to you, they should get XP for the first and not for the second? Doesn't make any sense to me, and it's very irritating for players. "Okay, so we get LESS xp for surviving something that's MORE dangerous?"

- Saph

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 11:03 AM
As for "does not discover trap but believes on is there" that sounds like someone making his Knowledge (Player) check. If the PC makes a Search check, he has to abide by that. Searching multiple times is fine, but in most cases the PCs are most likely taking 20 through the dungeon anyway. If the player suspects a trap, that is all well and good, but most of the time the character would not be. Example: Player "The DM described this section of corridor but not the last hundred and fifty. There must be a Secret Door or Trap here, even though I took 20!"

Actually it's even worse then that. If you have ever seen Another Gaming Comic (I think that's the one) They have one on Illusions where if you disbelieve something and it is an Illusion you get a saving throw, but if you don't, then you get none. This led to the players claiming their disbelief in everything.

Same here. "I move forward believing there is a trap. I move forward again believing there is another trap." So on and so Forth. You must always believe there is a trap so that when there is one you get XP.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-06, 11:13 AM
Why?

I mean, let's look at the two cases.

Case 1:

Rogue: "Hey guys, I think there might be a trap here."
Fighter, Wizard, Cleric: "Okay, search it."
. . . (two minutes pass)
Rogue: "Yup, I'm going to study and disarm it now."
. . . (several more minutes pass. Fighter, wizard, and cleric buff their nails.)
Rogue: "Done."

Case 2:

Rogue: "Hey guys, I think there might be a trap here."
Fighter, Wizard, Cleric: "Okay, search it."
. . . (two minutes pass)
Rogue: "Yup, I'm going to study and disarm it now."
. . . (several more minutes pass. Fighter, wizard, and cleric buff their nails.)
Rogue: "Oops."
BOOM!
*Insert saving thows, skill checks, and spells*
Fighter, Wizard, Cleric: "Ow. Well, at least it's gone. Let's go."

In the first case, the fighter, wizard and cleric did nothing except stand around. In the second, they had to roll saving throws, take damage, and use skills. But according to you, they should get XP for the first and not for the second? Doesn't make any sense to me, and it's very irritating for players. "Okay, so we get LESS xp for surviving something that's MORE dangerous?"

- Saph

Why would they get less xp for survivng something more dangerous? The fireball trap (assuming thats what it is) is worth just as much if it blows up in the rogues face or not. As for why the other PCs get xp, watching the rogue (or whoever) disarm, they get an idea of hows its done, maybe they will multiclass to rogue one day...

I have never said that there was no xp for the trap, under any circumstance. What I have said is that you get xp for the traps, always.

And honestly, what group of PCs stands around watching the Rogue disarm the trap while within blast radius? Every hides around the corner and waits to see what happesn.. in which case the xp they get is explained by them learning not to be stupid enough to be the one disarming the trap.

I think you either misunderstood me or were talking to someone else. All I said was that disarming the trap is worth just as much as setting it off. Which was in response to your saying that setting the trap off should be worth more than just disarming. I think they are of equal value.

Saph
2007-12-06, 11:19 AM
I think you either misunderstood me or were talking to someone else. All I said was that disarming the trap is worth just as much as setting it off. Which was in response to your saying that setting the trap off should be worth more than just disarming. I think they are of equal value.

Ah, sorry. Got your post mixed up with Craig's.

But I definitely think that if you're tilting it either way, you should get more XP for surviving a trap than from standing around the corner while the out-of-sight rogue disables it.

- Saph

Arakune
2007-12-06, 11:22 AM
Not that my opinion matter, but I like some system to distribute experience:

X points for surviving the mission;
X points for each enemy defeated alone, or X/N based on the number of players managed to defeat the enemy (defeat being either death or run);
X points for roleplay (this one are the most vast, including social relations, plans that worked, successful traps that you disarmed instead of setting of, etc)
X points for completing the quest;

And if you want to be mean, you can say that only experience received from defeated enemies and completing the quest (in the form of material components, ceremonial daggers, horn/skin/teeth, etc) can be used make scrolls or magic items.

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 11:24 AM
I definately disagree with this, in almost every way. First, it creates way too much paperwork for the DM unless you hand out xp "video-game" style as you fight/defeat stuff.

I didn't mean that they need to write it all out, only that after-the-fact, the DM loosely uses that set of guidelines. Or maybe those are the general trap rules, where the trap has a specific XP, and each one of those possible scenarios is a percentage of the overall XP, to be calculated later.

As for the whole "believing there is a trap there", what I mean is, if you KNOW there is a trap there, but a search check doesn't reveal it. For example, a huge scorch mark on the ground, or some residue or evidence that a trap exists, yet no one has a sufficient search check to find it.

If you pull a bat out of a bag of tricks, and let it loose, and a trap hits it, you now "believe a trap is there", but you haven't actually "found it". That is, you still need to search for it to then disarm it. It might not even be a trap, there might be a kobold sitting up in a hiding spot casting magic missile, which is why you "believe" there is a trap, although you haven't successfully "searched" for it.

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 11:28 AM
Ah, sorry. Got your post mixed up with Craig's.

But I definitely think that if you're tilting it either way, you should get more XP for surviving a trap than from standing around the corner while the out-of-sight rogue disables it.

- Saph

I would argue that, playing your role, and letting the rogue play his by letting him disarm it, should provide more experience than saying "yarr, I'm a fighter and can survive anything, I'll just walk right into this trap!"

But I'm not saying one should be 100xp while the 2nd should be 1000xp. I'm saying that maybe surviving the encounter should be worth 500xp, while surviving it without taking damage should be a bonus of 100xp.

Saph
2007-12-06, 11:31 AM
I would argue that, playing your role, and letting the rogue play his by letting him disarm it, should provide more experience than saying "yarr, I'm a fighter and can survive anything, I'll just walk right into this trap!"

Soaking up damage is the fighter's role. :P

They don't give you that d10 hit die because it looks pretty.

- Saph

Sofaking
2007-12-06, 11:34 AM
I would give partial XP depending on how it was bypassed without disarming. If the party cleverly devised a way to get around it, full XP. If they set it off then none. And if they just threw rocks at it and set it off maybe award 1/4 or 1/2 xp.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-06, 11:48 AM
And that's why you get xp for everything, no matter how it is beaten or why.

Using the assumed "archetype party" for 3.5 of a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard and Rogue, everyone gets a share of the xp because the assumtion is that in the course of time, everyone will contribute something. The fighter will go toe to toe with the BBEG and get beaten bloody to stop him from hurting one hair on the heads of the other three because it's his job. The rogue will get his eyebrows blown off by the fireball trap because he has the best chance of surviving it and it's his job. The wizard will buff the party, kill stuff and overcome various obstacles - that's his job. The cleric will heal the party, buff the party and overcome various obstacles - that's his job.

So while it might not make much sense that everyone gets xp for the rogue walking over and disarming the trap while everyone else stands around gawking, the fighter then would have a case to be made that he alone should get the xp for some monster or other, since he stood there and fought it while everyone else just stood around casting or hiding. The wizard then argues that without his fly spell the party would have never reached the Enchanted Fortress of Hredeleshermon the Lesser (tm), so all xp earned inside should go to him. The cleric remembers when the wizard was dropped to 0 hp at 1st level by a stray cat and the cleric saved his life, so all the xp he has earned should go to him. It would be an endless cycle of who gets what and who did what and what the best action is.

The end of the day answer is that D&D is a team game that is meant to be fun and entertaining for all players. Everyone gets an equal share because they are all supposed to be contributing and to keep them from outstripping each other in levels. Traps are worth xp because even if you can logic and reason (weasal) your way around not giving the PCs their (rightful) xp the trap almost always contains the possibility of killing at least one player. At the very least it depletes resources, which is really all you can do to a party of PCs anyway.

Townopolis
2007-12-06, 01:29 PM
It's a matter of context. A group learning of a danger (trap down that hall, ogres in the north pass) and deciding to simply avoid it (don't go down that hall, go south) doesn't warrant XP in my opinion, whereas PCs trying to circumvent the obstacle (sneak past the ogres, search for another passage) does.

In the example of a thief running away, the assumption was that he was trying to avoid a fight. Generally, a solitary rogue squaring off against a CR appropriate guard is screwed in one of my games, excepting when they come up with something clever. In these cases, as in an ambush, the goal is to get away alive. The thief can flee, can duck into a doorway and try to shake the guard in the ensuing chase by using corners to get out of sight, or throw down a thunderstone and jump into a barrel. The thief gets XP for overcoming the challenge of "this guard wants to kill you."

Similarly, a trap is blocking the way to a treasure chest, and you want that gold. Disarming the trap, shoving the barbarian into it, or spider climbing over it (if the trigger is on the floor) are all valid options for defeating the trap.

Just walking into a trap is something I consider akin to getting conked on the back of the head in a dark alleyway and waking up the next morning without your wallet. Yes it was a dangerous situation, yes you survived it, no it wasn't through any actions of your own.

This is mostly for "click-snap" boring traps, the kind where you step on a flagstone and an arrow grows out of your chest. If it's a more interesting sort of trap, one that creates a scenario, XP is probably going to be given even if you just walk into it. Like if you get ambushed and fight off (or try to fight off) your assailants. If you fall into a deep pit, or trigger a rolling boulder trap, you get your XP from getting Bob out of the pit or figuring out how to not get squished.

As for only giving trap XP to groups with trapfinders. I personally consider traps to be sort of "rogue only" content. If I have a trapfinding rogue, there will be click-snap traps for him/her to feel useful around. If no one has trapfinding, what traps there are will be pits and rolling boulders.

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 01:54 PM
And that's why you get xp for everything, no matter how it is beaten or why.

I still believe there are levels of success. For example, in my last campaign, we fought an evil djinn, that attempted to beg for mercy as I started the 2nd attack in my full-round attack. I did not give him mercy, because I knew he would plane shift away on his turn. After the fact, the DM said "yeah, he pretty much would have escaped. You were wise to kill him, and you're getting more XP because of it. If he'd escaped, the enemy would have useful intelligence right now"

Another scenario, we were exploring the underground lab of a wizard that hadn't contacted us since we sent her an item to experiment on a week ago. We ended up in her basement, when we were encountered by a Devil, that was pretending to be an Angelic, Gated creature. It ordered us not to escape, and to just sit tight. If we'd done so, we'd have been jumped by an undead virus in psuedopod form.

The Devil massively outclassed us ... we were level 6, and it could teleport at will, and charm at will. The idea was that it would threaten us. We could run, but one or two of us might die. It could charm us, and then we'd be in trouble.

Fortunately, our duskblade rolled high on the first charm attempt. My barbarian did a grapple-pounce, and ad him pinned in one round. He continually failed his attempt to cast a spell (rolling below a 6 three times in a row) and we killed him.

The DM gave us bonus XP for killing him, rather than simply driving him off or subduing him. If he'd gotten off simply one "teleport", he'd have escaped and attempted to pick us off as we explored further.

This is the same as with traps. If you "defeat" a trap cleanly, you should get more XP, than if you just barge through it.

Craig1f
2007-12-06, 02:05 PM
Also, it depends highly on how important the trap is to the plot.

If the DM is just sort of throwing traps in to make things interesting, and validate the presence of the Rogue in the group, then maybe the XP should be for simply "finishing the encounter".

If the DM is putting in clever traps, that require more than a search and disarm check, then I think you should get XP specifically for the trap.

For example, we were in a dark cave that was very dark. My half-orc was the only one that could see, but his spot score is ****e. Fortunately, I decided to proceed very carefully, and saw the strings that were strewn across the room, attached to bells, designed to alert guards if any prisoners tried to escape (they never expected people to actually raid the cave). In this case, we got lots of bonus XP for raiding the cave without alerting any guards.

This sort of trap was more than a simple search and disable. It took observation and care by the group to avoid.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-06, 02:48 PM
I still believe there are levels of success. For example, in my last campaign, we fought an evil djinn, that attempted to beg for mercy as I started the 2nd attack in my full-round attack. I did not give him mercy, because I knew he would plane shift away on his turn. After the fact, the DM said "yeah, he pretty much would have escaped. You were wise to kill him, and you're getting more XP because of it. If he'd escaped, the enemy would have useful intelligence right now"

Really? YOU knew the Djinn would plane shift? What about your character? Did he make his Knowledge (Planes) check to correctly identify him as a Djinn AND roll high enough to know that Djinn can Planeshift? Or was your character just relying on your Knowledge (Player) roll?


Another scenario, we were exploring the underground lab of a wizard that hadn't contacted us since we sent her an item to experiment on a week ago. We ended up in her basement, when we were encountered by a Devil, that was pretending to be an Angelic, Gated creature. It ordered us not to escape, and to just sit tight. If we'd done so, we'd have been jumped by an undead virus in psuedopod form.

Were there any Bluff rolls? Sense Motive checks? I'm jst saying.. just because you know the DM is lying through his teeth to you... your characters don't...


The Devil massively outclassed us ... we were level 6, and it could teleport at will, and charm at will. The idea was that it would threaten us. We could run, but one or two of us might die. It could charm us, and then we'd be in trouble.

Well, he should have killed you. That's why you don't throw high-powered devils at low-level parties.


Fortunately, our duskblade rolled high on the first charm attempt. My barbarian did a grapple-pounce, and ad him pinned in one round. He continually failed his attempt to cast a spell (rolling below a 6 three times in a row) and we killed him.

The DM gave us bonus XP for killing him, rather than simply driving him off or subduing him. If he'd gotten off simply one "teleport", he'd have escaped and attempted to pick us off as we explored further.

So you lucked out and killed an inappropriate CR creature and the DM is giving you more xp than normal. By the book you should have gotten full xp for driving him off, even without killing him.


This is the same as with traps. If you "defeat" a trap cleanly, you should get more XP, than if you just barge through it.

Why? What is "cleanly"? You get more xp for the Rogue having a bunch of skill boosting equipment and the PCs constantly taking 20? DMs already have a hard enough time eating up PC resources (at least with encounters that appropriate CR :smallwink: )


Also, it depends highly on how important the trap is to the plot.

If the DM is just sort of throwing traps in to make things interesting, and validate the presence of the Rogue in the group, then maybe the XP should be for simply "finishing the encounter".

If the DM is putting in clever traps, that require more than a search and disarm check, then I think you should get XP specifically for the trap.

Such traps are the realm of DM fiat and are, in my opinion, usually a bunch of BS. It's annoying that players just Search and Disable, but it is how it is. Unfortunately you cannot see what your characters see and the DM will never be able to pass that information to you with 100% clarity.


For example, we were in a dark cave that was very dark. My half-orc was the only one that could see, but his spot score is ****e. Fortunately, I decided to proceed very carefully, and saw the strings that were strewn across the room, attached to bells, designed to alert guards if any prisoners tried to escape (they never expected people to actually raid the cave). In this case, we got lots of bonus XP for raiding the cave without alerting any guards.

This sort of trap was more than a simple search and disable. It took observation and care by the group to avoid.

Except, really, it was a Search and Disable. You have no Spot, yet you found the trap (Search); you then avoided the trap -- however, since you could not actively disable it, you bypassed it. Much as you would with a pit-trap.

Your group just removed all of the mechanical aspects of the game and replaced it with semi-moderated storytelling.