Lowest level Wizard that can take over 5th Century Ireland?

[BlueWitch]

What's the lowest level a Wizard can be to take over an Ancient civilization?
Not quite Stone Age, but like, old old.
As in 5th Century.

I'm thinking once he has Dominate Person he can just use it on a King?

Bonus Question:
If you were a 20th Level Wizard, and dropped off in Ancient (5th Century) Ireland, what would you do? (Besides wanting to come back to this time period)

Asking for a friend. :)

[Ramza00]

Are we talking mythical Ireland for this kind of matters.

[Tohron]

A 1st level wizard could to things like hide poison with Prestidigitation, or do subterfuge/assassinations with Mage Hand or Unseen Servant, and trick people with Silent Images and Ghost Sounds. With Precocious Apprentice they could add in Suggestion for significant mind control options. All-in-all, that should be enough for a canny political player to take control if they don't get unlucky. After all, people took control of nations larger than Ireland without any magic whatsoever.

[BlueWitch]

Are we talking mythical Ireland for this kind of matters.

Nah, I mean like in Real Life.

But that could be a bonus question and now I'm interested lol!

So what's the lowest level you think he'd have to be in the Mythological/Folklore Ireland, and then Ancient Civilization Real Life?

[Zanos]

A 1st level casters charm person makes a target that fails their will save "perceive your words and actions in the most favorable way" for an hour. While he certainly isn't a terror in combat, if nobody else in the hypothetical understands magic, he can get away with quite a lot just with charms.

[Vahnavoi]

Even a 1st level Wizard with Charm Person can go a long way. We're talking of a trained scholar who can read and write at a time when those skills alone can land you a high place in court, who can also hypnotize another person to be their friend.

As for the bonus question, a 20th level Wizard has next to nothing they need in 5th century Ireland, or anywhere else on Earth, for that matter. So I would do what such magic-users tend to, conjure a mighty warded tower to guard my body and then astrally project to explore realms beyond mortal comprehension.

[Ramza00]

Nah, I mean like in Real Life.

But that could be a bonus question and now I'm interested lol!

So what's the lowest level you think he'd have to be in the Mythological/Folklore Ireland, and then Ancient Civilization Real Life?

Irish bisexual Hercules says hello (Cú Chulainn) but you can defeat this frenzied berserker via enough geas/quest spells and bestow curse. Until then the one man army who fought a nation to a standstill for all his friends had fallen asleep.

And some of the other myths from that time are 7th to 9th level spell effects.

[Anthrowhale]

Even a rather low level cleric can be pretty impressive.

Something like Cloistered Cleric[Trickery, Pact, Knowledge] would provide a cleric with extensive social and knowledge skills. Combined with the ability to really heal multiple people per day, they could potentially start and drive their own religion then shift that into more general power leading to a decisive edge over basic warlordism.

[Vahnavoi]

For mythological Ireland, the answer depends on which D&D version of the Fair Folk you'll be using. The minimum level can be anywhere from 8th to Epic in that case. Worst case has heads of Seelie and Unseelie Courts statted as deities.

[Mechalich]

5th Century Ireland is a very underdeveloped area. {Scrubbed} the island was divided nebulously between a large number of kingdoms {Scrubbed} centered on ring forts and/or fortified monasteries. As such, 'taking over' Ireland is a matter of serious nation building that would demand the unification of at least five (the so called 'pentarchy' of prehistorical Irish kingdoms) and probably considerably more proto-states into a unified whole, in addition to taking control of {Scrubbed} authorities who controlled a considerable portion of the cultivated land and pasture throughout the highland and were nominally sovereign in their own right and at the same time introducing an infrastructure capable of controlling a territory that had, to that point never represented a unified polity. The total population of the island was, at this time, presumed to be around 500,000 people, but widely dispersed with archeological evidence counting some 45,000 ringforts, each considered to represent a farming homestead.

Conquest, therefore, involves a number of steps at minimum:

Taking control or creation of a resource base.
Production of an army.
Development of the supporting resources to sustain that army.
A means to consistently triumph in battle against local opponents.
A means to integrate conquered territory into the resource base.
Development of an administration capable of managing territory and preventing unrest.
Prevention of enemy unification that would overwhelm defensive resources.


Condensing this, the hypothetical wizard conqueror needs a way to develop an elite force capable of consistently winning against the Iron Age coalitions likely to oppose them, some way of revolutionizing the administration to control the country, and a way to prevent retribution and assassination from derailing them, all in a situation where local resources are extremely limited.

The Upper Bound is 11th level. Planar Binding solves this problem all by itself (though it would seriously reduce the wealth of the island in the process). The question is how far below that one can go. 3rd level spells are probably sufficient to win battles at the scale 5th century Ireland can muster, so long as the wizard participates personally, and to assassinate any opponents (Gaseous Form goes a long way in terms of getting into places) who represent a long term threat. The tricky part is administrative reform, since low-level magic can only do so much. {Scrubbed}

[H_H_F_F]

You know what's interesting? I actually think using low level enchantments would be less viable as a means of overtaking fifth century Ireland than 21st century US.

Today, with charm person, suggestion, etc, you could easily cause a lot of mayhem - but I feel like fifth century people would just say "a witch hexed the king!" Or "I was influenced by magic!"

I mean, ancient people said this sort of stuff in our non-magical world - they'd for sure use the same logic against a real magic user. "It must be magic, cur off the newcomers head" isn't something that's going to happen now.

[Mechalich]

You know what's interesting? I actually think using low level enchantments would be less viable as a means of overtaking fifth century Ireland than 21st century US.

Today, with charm person, suggestion, etc, you could easily cause a lot of mayhem - but I feel like fifth century people would just say "a witch hexed the king!" Or "I was influenced by magic!"

I mean, ancient people said this sort of stuff in our non-magical world - they'd for sure use the same logic against a real magic user. "It must be magic, cur off the newcomers head" isn't something that's going to happen now.

Not really. Historical examples of kings being influenced by 'mystics' abound, but because the king is still king and supporting the king retains all the benefits it did before, a court will support the altered regime anyway even to the point of allowing the mystic manipulator to exert de facto rulership so long as they continue to be rewarded. Now, this can have troubling consequences when the magic in question doesn't actually work -{Scrubbed}

Using magic to take over 5th Century Ireland is, however, arguably much more difficult than taking over 5th Century Rome. {Scrubbed} 5th century Ireland has no unity and therefore the levers of power that a magic-empowered-manipulator needs to take over a state simply don't exist.

[BlueWitch]

Yeah, the more I thought about this, the more I realize Cleric would have been a better route.

Not only would healing back then been useful, but removing poison and diseases too.
If you don't take over, you would at the very least, become a Beloved Icon and probably sought globally should news spread of a healing man.

{Scrubbed}

[RNightstalker]

Yeah, the more I thought about this, the more I realize Cleric would have been a better route.

Not only would healing back then been useful, but removing poison and diseases too.
If you don't take over, you would at the very least, become a Beloved Icon and probably sought globally should news spread of a healing man.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

[BlueWitch]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

[RNightstalker]

Hmm....good point.
That's really depressing actually.
Humans are so mean.

In the interest of not breaking sandbox rules, yeah humans can be awesome and then royally suck in just one more breath...

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: I don't think this topic can be discussed without running afoul of the real-world religion and politics rules. Thread closed.