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Armads
2007-12-06, 05:47 AM
Are clerics really better than fighters at melee? I admit that they are better than fighter, being able to do stuff OTHER than fight, but in a straight up "lets whack at each other" sort of fight, would the cleric actually be better than a weapon focus-using fighter at dealing damage?

I'm assuming both characters are level 10.
The Cleric's buffs consist of Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Favor and Divine Power (persisted). This gives a +3 luck bonus to attack and damage, +6 enhancement to strength and temporary hit points enough to 'equalize' the hp (assuming con mod is the same). For his domains, it'll probably be Planning and Undeath - typical DMM Persist cheese domains.

On the other hand, the fighter has Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery, as well as his Shock Trooper tree. That gives a +4 to attack and a +4 to damage. The fighter'll probably get a belt of strength +4, which means that he has less strength than the cleric.

The cleric has the same attack bonus as the fighter. The fighter has spent all his fighter bonus feats, but the cleric has spent 3 feats outside his domain bonus feats (Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic, Power Attack). The fighter may continue on with his feat selection with Martial Study, followed by Martial Stance, and then changing his weapon to a +1 discipline weapon to take advantage of the higher attack bonus granted. He could also shore up his weak will save with stuff like Endurance and Steadfast Determination. So, they seem pretty equivalent, when it comes down to whacking stuff on the head with a big stick.

Am I missing out on anything?

Nebo_
2007-12-06, 06:05 AM
Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Stone Body... to name a few.

Fighters are better at battlefield control - trippers, lockdown and counter attacking because they have more feats to work with. Clerics are better at bashin' stuff.

Renx
2007-12-06, 06:21 AM
You forgot Extend Spell, which you need if you want to get Persistent Spell. And I don't think you can get Persistent Spell before level 13 (since it's a +6 spell level feat). I know the req isn't listed, but it'd make sense.

Also, the Cleric can heal himself. He's a level away from all the good spells, and as you say, it's generally seen that Clerics start to out-zilla fighters at around lvl 11 ;)

Armads
2007-12-06, 06:23 AM
You forgot Extend Spell, which you need if you want to get Persistent Spell. And I don't think you can get Persistent Spell before level 13 (since it's a +6 spell level feat). I know the req isn't listed, but it'd make sense.

Also, the Cleric can heal himself. He's a level away from all the good spells, and as you say, it's generally seen that Clerics start to out-zilla fighters at around lvl 11 ;)

Planning Domain grants Extend Spell for free. Divine Metamagic lets you cheese your way out of the spell level increase.

EDIT: The reason why I left out Righteous Might is because the size increase may not always be handy, especially when in dungeons.

Renx
2007-12-06, 06:26 AM
Planning Domain grants Extend Spell for free. Divine Metamagic lets you cheese your way out of the spell level increase.

What deity grants Planning domain? O.o

Ossian
2007-12-06, 06:26 AM
It's like wondering wheter a 90lb. nerd with a H&K MP 5 (10mm bullets) is better than bruce lee in a fight. Whoever uses magic, is not buffing, but bluffing. So, yes, clerics beat a lot harder, thanks to their gods.
Perhaps, if the guy with the H&K did not have the time to draw the weapon...

Armads
2007-12-06, 06:27 AM
What deity grants Planning domain? O.o

Ideological Cause :smallbiggrin: Alternatively, some of the CWar deities grant it.

Renx
2007-12-06, 06:28 AM
Perhaps, if the guy with the H&K did not have the time to draw the weapon...

Belt of repelling against normal missiles? ;)

brian c
2007-12-06, 06:44 AM
The fighter may continue on with his feat selection with Martial Study, followed by Martial Stance, and then changing his weapon to a +1 discipline weapon to take advantage of the higher attack bonus granted. He could also shore up his weak will save with stuff like Endurance and Steadfast Determination. So, they seem pretty equivalent, when it comes down to whacking stuff on the head with a big stick.

Am I missing out on anything?

If you bring ToB into the equation, then I think a Fighter could use those bonus feats to really hold his own. If it's just regular fightin' stuff though, the cleric wins. Basically, the Cleric can give himself everything the fighter has and more in terms of raw stats, which more than make up for the Fighter's feats. A Lockdown build could neutralize, but the cleric can get enlarged and negate the Lockdown advantage. Basically, the way for the Fighter to be better is if he gets buffed too, but to do that requires another character (and the best buffs are personal range, so the Fighter can never get them)

kpenguin
2007-12-06, 06:51 AM
So, then the question is whether a cleric with his classic buffs on, personal range or otherwise, is more powerful or an optimized fighter with those buffs spent on him?

brian c
2007-12-06, 06:58 AM
So, then the question is whether a cleric with his classic buffs on, personal range or otherwise, is more powerful or an optimized fighter with those buffs spent on him?

If the fighter can get those same exact buffs somehow, then the fighter wins because of his feats making him better at combat, and better HD; this is assuming the cleric sticks to melee combat, and doesn't use any combat spells at all.

Nebo_
2007-12-06, 06:58 AM
Ossian It's like wondering wheter a 90lb. nerd with a H&K MP 5 (10mm bullets) is better than bruce lee in a fight. Whoever uses magic, is not buffing, but bluffing. So, yes, clerics beat a lot harder, thanks to their gods.
Perhaps, if the guy with the H&K did not have the time to draw the weapon...

The cleric is already buffed - DMM persist, remember. The H&K MP5 is 9mm, not 10mm.

Vael Nir
2007-12-06, 07:18 AM
It really doesn't matter to me, as the cleric is usually not trying to kill the fighter. My fighter wouldn't face this problem personally, his stats and gear are great enough to nearly equal the buffed cleric, have nearly the same AC and a higher AB... it'd really depend on who gets lucky with the dice, because the fight would probably be over in two full attacks (at level 19).

Jack_Simth
2007-12-06, 07:19 AM
(and the best buffs are personal range, so the Fighter can never get them)That's not entirely true -
1) a Ring of Spell Storing technically does not have the restriction that you can't put Personal spells into it - which means a Fighter could, in theory, obtain the spells that way (use Heighten or other metamagic to avoid the caster level drop).
2) Use Magic Device and Scrolls (yes, it's cross-class).

Nebo_
2007-12-06, 07:29 AM
That's not entirely true -
1) a Ring of Spell Storing technically does not have the restriction that you can't put Personal spells into it - which means a Fighter could, in theory, obtain the spells that way (use Heighten or other metamagic to avoid the caster level drop).

How are you targeting the spell into said ring?

nyjastul69
2007-12-06, 07:41 AM
Ideological Cause :smallbiggrin: Alternatively, some of the CWar deities grant it.


What are CWar deities?

Armads
2007-12-06, 07:44 AM
What are CWar deities?

Deities in the Complete Warrior pantheon.



How are you targeting the spell into said ring?

Get a cleric to wear the ring, cast the spell into it, then give it to the fighter.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-06, 08:30 AM
The problem also arises that in using spells to replicate armour and weapon enchancements the cleric has MASSIVELY more cash to throw around, some of which is going to get spent on caster boosts, but with enough left over to give some utility or protection items. Rings of blur or invis, nat armour and protection items, etc... So while the fighter might equal a preped cleric if they're cheesed to the nines, they also need to match their WBL by exceeding the DMG lists and after that the cleric's still a full caster with vastly more utility and healing power.

Saph
2007-12-06, 08:45 AM
I'm assuming both characters are level 10.
The Cleric's buffs consist of Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Favor and Divine Power (persisted). This gives a +3 luck bonus to attack and damage, +6 enhancement to strength and temporary hit points enough to 'equalize' the hp (assuming con mod is the same). For his domains, it'll probably be Planning and Undeath - typical DMM Persist cheese domains.

Bear in mind that unless the DM is completely clueless, you won't be allowed full DMM Persistent cheese, for obvious reasons. So you should probably leave that out of the equation. (If your DM does allow this level of gouda, game balance is going to be so whacked-out that trying to figure out who's 'better' is a joke anyway.) Also, not everyone wants to play a cleric of planning and undeath.

This means that you have to re-cast Divine Favour and Divine Power each fight, which ties you up for one or two rounds.

- Saph

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 09:00 AM
Bear in mind that unless the DM is completely clueless, you won't be allowed full DMM Persistent cheese, for obvious reasons. So you should probably leave that out of the equation. (If your DM does allow this level of gouda, game balance is going to be so whacked-out that trying to figure out who's 'better' is a joke anyway.) Also, not everyone wants to play a cleric of planning and undeath.

DMM Persist is not anywhere near the level of cheese that you can't figure out who is better.

One could just as easily counter that, "If your DM allows (Any Lockdown build/The Shocktrooper feat/any trip build) then game balance is going to be so whacked-out that trying to figure out who's 'better' is a joke anyway."

Creating useful and efficient characters that can defeat higher then normal CR encounters doesn't mean the game stops working. Just like building a true Batman Wizard doesn't mean the game is over.

Renx
2007-12-06, 09:02 AM
That's not entirely true -
1) a Ring of Spell Storing technically does not have the restriction that you can't put Personal spells into it - which means a Fighter could, in theory, obtain the spells that way (use Heighten or other metamagic to avoid the caster level drop).
2) Use Magic Device and Scrolls (yes, it's cross-class).

You can't metamagic into spell storing items or scrolls.

//Edit1: Scratch that, you can metamagic into spell storing items. Just that it takes the modified level, no DMM allowed ;)

greenknight
2007-12-06, 09:06 AM
Once you bring Divine Favor/Divine Power/Righteous Might into the picture, Clerics are probably about as powerful as Fighters. If you're allowing DMM and Polymorph, the buffed Cleric is probably a lot more powerful. However, the real issue is that in addition to being able to match the Fighter's ability in combat, the Cleric can do a lot of other useful stuff. But outside combat, there's not really all that much the Fighter's really useful for.

Saph
2007-12-06, 09:07 AM
DMM Persist is not anywhere near the level of cheese that you can't figure out who is better.

One could just as easily counter that, "If your DM allows (Any Lockdown build/The Shocktrooper feat/any trip build) then game balance is going to be so whacked-out that trying to figure out who's 'better' is a joke anyway."

Yes, you could, but saying it doesn't make it true. DMM Persist cheese is ridiculously overpowered; everyone knows this. Hence assuming that EVERY SINGLE CLERIC is going to have it (which is what the initial post is doing) is going to give results that will bear very little resemblance to an average D&D game.

- Saph

Kioran
2007-12-06, 09:12 AM
Yes, you could, but saying it doesn't make it true. DMM Persist cheese is ridiculously overpowered; everyone knows this. Hence assuming that EVERY SINGLE CLERIC is going to have it (which is what the initial post is doing) is going to give results that will bear very little resemblance to an average D&D game.

- Saph

Shock Trooper/leap attack also is, since it makes most other ways of dealing damage in melee obsolete and does ridiculous damage.........So itīs either a Core discussion (where the Fighter barely keeps the upper hand, mainly becuase he doesnīt need to spend time buffing - but still sucks at anything that does not let him power Full-Attack) or RAW with all splatbooks (where Full caster squash all others in almost all areas).

Nebo_
2007-12-06, 09:13 AM
I think you're overestimating the power of a persistent cleric. Sure, it's powerful, but not nearly on the level that you're talking about.

The John
2007-12-06, 09:19 AM
The cleric should start off by casting spells to lower the threat of the fighter, then buff himself. Blindness/Deafness is always fun, Hold Person, touch attack.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-06, 09:32 AM
The cleric should start off by casting spells to lower the threat of the fighter, then buff himself. Blindness/Deafness is always fun, Hold Person, touch attack.

Yeah, but then it's blindingly obvious who's better, the exercise is in debating whether a cleric that only buffs themselves is superior to a fighter (seeming.y of whatever optimization but there you go). If the full caster whips out all their tricks and their combat superiority and their out of combat usefulness it isn't a very interesting thread.

Irenaeus
2007-12-06, 09:32 AM
The cleric is already buffed - DMM persist, remember. The H&K MP5 is 9mm, not 10mm.

Completely OT: Although I see no reson why the example had to be that specific, Ossian said HK MP5 (10mm), which I expect refers to the MP5/10, which is indeed a 10mm variant. This is used by the FBI HRT and other organizations that deems the 9x19mm round inadequate.

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 09:32 AM
Yes, you could, but saying it doesn't make it true. DMM Persist cheese is ridiculously overpowered; everyone knows this. Hence assuming that EVERY SINGLE CLERIC is going to have it (which is what the initial post is doing) is going to give results that will bear very little resemblance to an average D&D game.

You seriously overstate DMM Persist. Not to mention, isn't Shocktrooper equally assumed for fighters? Yes. That doesn't mean that it is too powerful or that it is always the best option ()You can make a Cleric without DMM persist, just that if you are playing in a high level game with a Shocktrooper build and a Batman then you do so because that's the level of play you are at.

serow
2007-12-06, 09:58 AM
Cleric vs Psywar?

Saph
2007-12-06, 10:11 AM
You seriously overstate DMM Persist. Not to mention, isn't Shocktrooper equally assumed for fighters? Yes. That doesn't mean that it is too powerful.

DMM Persist isn't too powerful because it's assumed, it's too powerful because it's too powerful.

Shocktrooper ubercharger builds that stack multipliers to do obscene amounts of damage on a charge are also pretty much pointless in any normal game, because they reduce every fight to a binary solution set:

1) You charge and hit. You deal eleventy bajillion damage. Monster is dead! Battle over.
2) You don't charge and hit. The main focus of your character is now pointless.

So, honestly, the assumptions for both classes are bad.

- Saph

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 11:41 AM
DMM Persist isn't too powerful because it's assumed, it's too powerful because it's too powerful.

Shocktrooper ubercharger builds that stack multipliers to do obscene amounts of damage on a charge are also pretty much pointless in any normal game, because they reduce every fight to a binary solution set:

1) You charge and hit. You deal eleventy bajillion damage. Monster is dead! Battle over.
2) You don't charge and hit. The main focus of your character is now pointless.

So, honestly, the assumptions for both classes are bad.

DMM Persist and Shocktrooper are not too powerful for all games. Just because they are for some doesn't mean they are for all. And if you can assume one (the way a Fighter has as much damage as a Cleric in melee) then you can assume the other (The way a Cleric always has as much damage as a fighter.)

If you don't Shocktroop then The Cleric does more damage then the fighter anyway.

brian c
2007-12-06, 02:40 PM
Get a cleric to wear the ring, cast the spell into it, then give it to the fighter.

Which goes back to my point: the fighter can't get buffed to the level of the cleric, unless he has help from another spellcaster.

Ramos
2007-12-06, 03:14 PM
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Weapon Mastery 2x, choose a weapon that has 2 damage types.

The above gives a +6 to attack and damage with the chosen weapon and you still have feats to spare.

Chronos
2007-12-06, 03:57 PM
The root of the cleric's superiority is that Righteous Might gives many different advantages at once, which a fighter would have to spend many feats to replicate.

The strength increase gives +2 to hit, balanced by the -1 to hit from size increase. That's a match for Weapon Focus.

The size increase typically increases average weapon damage by +1, with another +3, (if a 2-handed weapon) from the strength boost. That matches Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.

The size increase increases reach (while still allowing attacks to adjacent squares). That matches Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain).

The size increase gives a +4 to grapple, trip, and disarm rolls. That matches Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm.

And you also gain +2 to Con, a net +1 to armor, and 3 points of difficult-to-bypass DR.

Plus, all of these bonuses from Righteous Might stack with bonuses from other sources. So the cleric can, if he wants, spend a feat or two on the same things the fighter spends feats on, to get even better in some area of combat. Sure, he can't spend nearly as many feats as the fighter can, but he doesn't need to, and whatever he does spend feats on is going to get better than the fighter can hope for.

Yes, you do have to cast the Righteous Might. But even without divine metamagic, there are ways to cast it without wasting time in the fight. Many fights, the players can anticipate to some degree, and buff up before hand. And even if you don't have a chance to prepare, you could quicken it with a rod or some other metamagic trick.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-06, 04:19 PM
You can't metamagic into spell storing items or scrolls.

//Edit1: Scratch that, you can metamagic into spell storing items. Just that it takes the modified level, no DMM allowed ;)
As I was responding to a post where the poster had said the fighter can "never get them" (and cutting down to just that aspect) and did not completely contradict the poster (that's "not entirely true" in response to "never") that's okay. A pure-classed Fighter has at least two Core methods by which he can potentially gain access to personal Cleric spells ... if he has help.

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 04:32 PM
Don't forget that the size increase also gives reach, which costs two feat for a fighter. (The Cleric can use reach weapons too.)

AslanCross
2007-12-06, 04:50 PM
What deity grants Planning domain? O.o

The Red Knight from Forgotten Realms grants it.

greenknight
2007-12-06, 06:20 PM
You seriously overstate DMM Persist.

I don't agree (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2826740&postcount=76). Here are the things the Cleric I linked to obtained through DMM Persist cheese:

* Divine Power. This increases the character's BAB by 9 (adding 1 attack per round) and HP by 25 (the Strength bonus is ignored because it's boosted more by another spell).

* Miracle (Bite of the Werebear). This gives +16 Strength, +8 Constitution, +7 Natural Armor, Blind Fight and Power Attack (the Dexterity bonus is boosted more by an item).

* Veil of Undeath. This gives immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death, extra damage from critical hits, nonlethal damage, death from massive damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, damage to physical ability scores, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it is harmless or affects objects. The character also need not breathe, eat, or sleep and is damaged by cure spells and healed by inflict spells.

* Greater Visage of the Diety. The main benefit for this character is the untyped bonuses to ability scores: Strength +4, Dexterity +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence +4, Charisma +2. There are also several other benefits the spell gives such as flight, an untyped natural armor bonus, darkvision, natural attacks, elemental resistances, immunity to poison, DR 10/magic and SR 25, but the character already has most of that from other sources.

That's bad enough, but I've learned more since I made that character and it could be even worse:

* Extended Persistant Spell to make each spell last 48 hours.
* Greater Consumptive Field (Libris Mortis) to get an effective caster level of 37.
* Hunter's Eye (PHB II, obtained via Miracle) to get sneak attack of 1d6 per 3 levels (using other cheese I could cast that with 42 caster levels for 14d6 sneak attack).

I should mention that some of the problem with these spells is that the spells themselves are overpowered, but Persisting them makes it even worse.

deadseashoals
2007-12-06, 06:36 PM
DMM Persist is not anywhere near the level of cheese that you can't figure out who is better.

If free +6 metamagic that allows you to extend the length of a spell by 720-fold is not supercheese, what exactly qualifies as supercheese in your book? Apparently, leap attack shock trooper pounce doesn't either, so I really can't figure out what is too broken. Maybe the Planar Shepherd?

Why don't you try comparing two clerics, one with a wad of cash spent on "cleric-y" items, and one with a wad of cash spent on nightsticks and prayer beads, and check out the power level difference between the two? The difference, I assure you, is staggering.

Frosty
2007-12-06, 06:41 PM
DMM is not broken if you ban items that boost Caster levels, or limit their total bonus to something reasonable...like +4.

deadseashoals
2007-12-06, 06:47 PM
DMM is not broken if you ban items that boost Caster levels, or limit their total bonus to something reasonable...like +4.

Why is that? So you can have dispel magic wars between NPCs and PCs? I assure you that rolling d20+CL against 11+CL, then recalculating every one of your affected statistics repeatedly ad infinitum until you're a simpering weakling does not make for a fun game of D&D, unless you're a masochistic accountant.

Nebo_
2007-12-06, 07:34 PM
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Weapon Mastery 2x, choose a weapon that has 2 damage types.

The above gives a +6 to attack and damage with the chosen weapon and you still have feats to spare.

You can't do that anymore, the errata changed it.



I don't agree. Here are the things the Cleric I linked to obtained through DMM Persist cheese:

* Divine Power. This increases the character's BAB by 9 (adding 1 attack per round) and HP by 25 (the Strength bonus is ignored because it's boosted more by another spell).

* Miracle (Bite of the Werebear). This gives +16 Strength, +8 Constitution, +7 Natural Armor, Blind Fight and Power Attack (the Dexterity bonus is boosted more by an item).

* Veil of Undeath. This gives immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death, extra damage from critical hits, nonlethal damage, death from massive damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, damage to physical ability scores, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it is harmless or affects objects. The character also need not breathe, eat, or sleep and is damaged by cure spells and healed by inflict spells.

* Greater Visage of the Diety. The main benefit for this character is the untyped bonuses to ability scores: Strength +4, Dexterity +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence +4, Charisma +2. There are also several other benefits the spell gives such as flight, an untyped natural armor bonus, darkvision, natural attacks, elemental resistances, immunity to poison, DR 10/magic and SR 25, but the character already has most of that from other sources.

That's bad enough, but I've learned more since I made that character and it could be even worse:

* Extended Persistant Spell to make each spell last 48 hours.
* Greater Consumptive Field (Libris Mortis) to get an effective caster level of 37.
* Hunter's Eye (PHB II, obtained via Miracle) to get sneak attack of 1d6 per 3 levels (using other cheese I could cast that with 42 caster levels for 14d6 sneak attack).

I should mention that some of the problem with these spells is that the spells themselves are overpowered, but Persisting them makes it even worse.

The op said that this contest was ECL 10, so the miracle has no place. You have a list of spells there that the cleric can already cast to make him better at fighting, persistent spell applied to those is just gravy (albeit delicious gravy). I'm not going to deny that DMM persist makes a cleric more powerful than normal, that much is obvious. What I'm saying is that it isn't as game breaking as people are trying to say. I'm playing in two separate games with DMM clerics and they aren't that overpowering. In one of those games, the cleric and the fighter had a friendly duel. The cleric just barely won, and only because he disarmed the fighter.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-06, 07:38 PM
Fighter is a two-level template that grants two bonus feats. Where are you getting a 10th-level fighter from?

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 08:18 PM
I should mention that some of the problem with these spells is that the spells themselves are overpowered, but Persisting them makes it even worse.

Yes many of those spells are overpowered, yes you can also only cast 1 (one) of those spells with a Cleric before ECL 15. I'm not overly concerned about the melee monster Cleric at ECL 15, or ECL 17 (The level you get half those spells).

Yes you are powerful at ECL 17, so is everyone else. And take note of what I actually said. In high powered games DMM Persist is fine. Then look at who I compared it too, Shocktrooper, Batman. Yes I think DMM Persist Clerics will not be overly ridiculous (Though anyone gathering enough people to have a Greater Consumptive Field Cheese would the next day face many enemies who intend to stop him from doing that again.)


Why don't you try comparing two clerics, one with a wad of cash spent on "cleric-y" items, and one with a wad of cash spent on nightsticks and prayer beads, and check out the power level difference between the two? The difference, I assure you, is staggering.

I never claimed there was no power difference. I said that a DMM Persist Cleric is well within the acceptable range of power that a high powered game takes place in.

Chronos
2007-12-06, 09:00 PM
(Though anyone gathering enough people to have a Greater Consumptive Field Cheese would the next day face many enemies who intend to stop him from doing that again.)What if he isn't gathering people? What if he just gathers rats, or chickens, or honeybees to fuel his GCF?

GoC
2007-12-06, 09:24 PM
*snip*

Imagine niether of them are being cheesy (no Shock Trooper or persistant spell) and you'll get the clerics as more powerful.

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 11:22 PM
What if he isn't gathering people? What if he just gathers rats, or chickens, or honeybees to fuel his GCF?

Then an Epic Druid would come for him after casting a few divination spells and asking how he can best maintain natures balance.

Idea Man
2007-12-06, 11:51 PM
So far, it looks like, barring very specific fighter builds and divine metamagic, clerics can be better fighters. They have certain restrictions to balance this power, however.

1. Clerics haven't got nearly the feat selection that fighters do. They may have a trick, or two (probably power attack, etc.), but not as many as a straight fighter. Makes combat pretty basic (high damage + reach).

2. Cleric boost spells don't usually have durations beyond minutes per level. Even extended, that's not a whole lot of time, but convienient if on a tight schedule. With DMM persistent spell, these become practical, daily buffs, but...

3. All magical spells the cleric is supported by are dispellable. It's entirely likely that a targeted dispel magic won't get all of them, but losing any of them reduces his battlefield effectiveness considerably. Being tied up in hand-to-hand, the cleric won't be able to counterspell this, so the wizard (or whoever) will have to either back him up, or hope that it's not neccessary.

4. At ninth level, when these spells are fully available, that amounts to one, maybe two battles at most, where the cleric can apply maximum force, and he's used all of his highest level magic to achieve this. At higher levels, he's much more able to maintain this power level.

Basically, the cleric's power in combat is more easily neutralized by enemy spellcasters, and he has little defense against it personally. He can't match the fighter in power consistently until higher levels, or until he gets DMM, which isn't really a great solution (uses 7 turn attempts, only gets 3 + Cha).

For every 2 extra turning feats, he gets another use? What about your combat feats? Or do you only cast one persistent spell per day? What if it get's dispelled? (Note: these are rhetorical questions; I don't want answers. Feel free to do so, but I already know the answers. Thank you.:smallbiggrin: )

That being said, generally speaking, clerics at higher levels can simply apply so much magical power to combat prowess that they totally outstrip fighters. ToB-enhaced fighters still look good, but magic always wins. At mid-levels, clerics can match the fighter handily, and doubling front line power is good strategy, but unless all the other encounters are low power, the cleric just can't keep up the same way. At low levels, if you want to fight that bad, play a fighter! C'mon!

I have always been a proponent of clerical kick-a** power, ever since I paralyzed the entire party (in 2nd ed.) in two rounds. That was just the tip of the iceberg. :smallamused:

Personal note: I find it amusing that people assume the DM must be insane to allow DMM. The really cool metamagic costs too much to do more than once or twice, and you don't actually have the feat, so you can't use it outside of your turning attempts. The advantage of being able to add this power to your highest level spells does validate the feat spent on it, however.

Frosty
2007-12-06, 11:56 PM
Well stackable night Sticks make DMM stupid. I allow one nightstick to work at a time. I'll allow it to stack with one necklace of +4 turning, but my PCs probably won't be getting both anytime soon.

tyckspoon
2007-12-07, 12:05 AM
For every 2 extra turning feats, he gets another use? What about your combat feats? Or do you only cast one persistent spell per day? What if it get's dispelled? (Note: these are rhetorical questions; I don't want answers. Feel free to do so, but I already know the answers. Thank you.:smallbiggrin: )


Personal note: I find it amusing that people assume the DM must be insane to allow DMM. The really cool metamagic costs too much to do more than once or twice, and you don't actually have the feat, so you can't use it outside of your turning attempts. The advantage of being able to add this power to your highest level spells does validate the feat spent on it, however.

Are you aware of nightsticks? Libris Mortis, an item that grants the Extra Turning feat to its possessor. That's not its wielder, just the possessor, so the cleric can buy or craft as many Extra Turnings as he can jam into his Haversack. Saves him the cost of slotting all his feats into Extra Turning, too. He's got Turn attempts to spare now; Divine Spell Power would complement his daily buffing nicely. The nightsticks are the real engine of DMM (Persist) brokenness, since they allow you to persist almost any spell you want and to recast them persisted if somebody gets lucky and dispels them off you. They're what I would ban or restrict if I was trying to prevent the Persistant Clericzilla. DMM in general is still an effective but not excessively broken option when used on lesser metamagic; DMM (Extend), (Quicken), and (Empower) could all find use without being outright broken... well, Quicken might be.

Idea Man
2007-12-07, 12:23 AM
Ohh, that's what nightsticks do! Libris mortis, eh? Just got it myself, none of my friends have it, so I hadn't seen that one yet. Not expended at use, then? Hold on, let me get my book...

...*running*...

...*sits*...*reading*...

Very not right! Well, in conjunction with DMM, anyway. Hmm, I think, if I had a powergamer at my table using those, I'd hate it as much as pearls of power. :smallmad: Too inexpensive for the value, in my opinion.

I see the problem now. Houseruling seems the easiest fix, if it's neccessary.

deadseashoals
2007-12-07, 03:56 AM
So far, it looks like, barring very specific fighter builds and divine metamagic, clerics can be better fighters. They have certain restrictions to balance this power, however.

1. Clerics haven't got nearly the feat selection that fighters do. They may have a trick, or two (probably power attack, etc.), but not as many as a straight fighter. Makes combat pretty basic (high damage + reach).

2. Cleric boost spells don't usually have durations beyond minutes per level. Even extended, that's not a whole lot of time, but convienient if on a tight schedule. With DMM persistent spell, these become practical, daily buffs, but...

3. All magical spells the cleric is supported by are dispellable. It's entirely likely that a targeted dispel magic won't get all of them, but losing any of them reduces his battlefield effectiveness considerably. Being tied up in hand-to-hand, the cleric won't be able to counterspell this, so the wizard (or whoever) will have to either back him up, or hope that it's not neccessary.

4. At ninth level, when these spells are fully available, that amounts to one, maybe two battles at most, where the cleric can apply maximum force, and he's used all of his highest level magic to achieve this. At higher levels, he's much more able to maintain this power level.

Basically, the cleric's power in combat is more easily neutralized by enemy spellcasters, and he has little defense against it personally. He can't match the fighter in power consistently until higher levels, or until he gets DMM, which isn't really a great solution (uses 7 turn attempts, only gets 3 + Cha).

For every 2 extra turning feats, he gets another use? What about your combat feats? Or do you only cast one persistent spell per day? What if it get's dispelled? (Note: these are rhetorical questions; I don't want answers. Feel free to do so, but I already know the answers. Thank you.:smallbiggrin: )

That being said, generally speaking, clerics at higher levels can simply apply so much magical power to combat prowess that they totally outstrip fighters. ToB-enhaced fighters still look good, but magic always wins. At mid-levels, clerics can match the fighter handily, and doubling front line power is good strategy, but unless all the other encounters are low power, the cleric just can't keep up the same way. At low levels, if you want to fight that bad, play a fighter! C'mon!

I have always been a proponent of clerical kick-a** power, ever since I paralyzed the entire party (in 2nd ed.) in two rounds. That was just the tip of the iceberg. :smallamused:

Personal note: I find it amusing that people assume the DM must be insane to allow DMM. The really cool metamagic costs too much to do more than once or twice, and you don't actually have the feat, so you can't use it outside of your turning attempts. The advantage of being able to add this power to your highest level spells does validate the feat spent on it, however.

The problem with dispel magic is that a cleric can easily get +8 to his caster level when he casts these buffs (Divine Spellpower, prayer beads). As for the things it allows you to do, such as making minute or round spells into daily buffs, and allowing you to blow the cap to use "cool" metamagic feats, both of these things are not really supposed to happen. The metamagic feats are priced according to their power, and giving them away for free* does not make for a balanced game mechanic. And the round and minute buffs are timed at their respective durations because of their power level.

Also, Divine Metamagic can only be used in conjunction with a metamagic feat that you know.

Chronos
2007-12-07, 07:32 PM
Very not right! Well, in conjunction with DMM, anyway.Personally, if I were to make the decision, I would allow Nightsticks, but only allow the turning from them to be used for actual turning. That's the purpose they were designed for, and I think they're probably balanced for that purpose: Given how unreliable actual turning is, I don't think it's unbalancing to let the cleric do it more.

Toliudar
2007-12-07, 07:39 PM
Personally, if I were to make the decision, I would allow Nightsticks, but only allow the turning from them to be used for actual turning. That's the purpose they were designed for, and I think they're probably balanced for that purpose: Given how unreliable actual turning is, I don't think it's unbalancing to let the cleric do it more.

A great idea! Stolen.

the_tick_rules
2007-12-07, 10:52 PM
clerics can be better if properly buffed. but you don't always have enough spells, right spells, time to cast them, opponets can dispel, and spells run out.

Titanium Dragon
2007-12-07, 11:35 PM
Can someone please post a shocktrooper build? I know what it is vaugely, but I'm not really sure how it is broken. I know what the feat does, but that's really all I know. I own pretty much all the books though, so if you just post the feat list I can look 'em up.

tyckspoon
2007-12-07, 11:52 PM
Can someone please post a shocktrooper build? I know what it is vaugely, but I'm not really sure how it is broken. I know what the feat does, but that's really all I know. I own pretty much all the books though, so if you just post the feat list I can look 'em up.

The core is Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper (and pre-requisites for all, of course.) Leap Attack increases the Power Attack multiplier on a charge, Shock Trooper lets you dump the PA penalty to AC instead of to-hit when charging. Charge, Power Attack for full, watch your AC plummet and the enemy disintegrate under a triple-damage Power Attack. Other feats can be added as desired; it's a really simple base.

Titanium Dragon
2007-12-08, 12:26 AM
The core is Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper (and pre-requisites for all, of course.) Leap Attack increases the Power Attack multiplier on a charge, Shock Trooper lets you dump the PA penalty to AC instead of to-hit when charging. Charge, Power Attack for full, watch your AC plummet and the enemy disintegrate under a triple-damage Power Attack. Other feats can be added as desired; it's a really simple base.

Ah, I had forgotten about Leap Attack. That still doesn't seem all that broken though; yeah, you can deal a ton of damage (that's what, damage + level x 3 damage at full attack bonus with a two handed weapon?) but that doesn't seem like it is a viable strategy in every fight. Obviously cleave and great cleave are musts to take out clustered groups of enemies, but it seems like if you can't kill them in that charge, they can easily kill you while your AC is worse than the Wizard (and you're -right there-). Its very narrow in its application.

Arbitrarity
2007-12-08, 12:30 AM
Which is why the other feats, like Elusive Target, or Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike/Combat Reflexes are used to cover your low AC. You hit me, I hit you back for the same I hit originally. Twice. For... 9* level+damage*3

Nebo_
2007-12-08, 12:32 AM
Leap attack is +100%, not x3 damage now...

tyckspoon
2007-12-08, 12:37 AM
Ah, I had forgotten about Leap Attack. That still doesn't seem all that broken though; yeah, you can deal a ton of damage (that's what, damage + level x 3 damage at full attack bonus with a two handed weapon?) but that doesn't seem like it is a viable strategy in every fight. Obviously cleave and great cleave are musts to take out clustered groups of enemies, but it seems like if you can't kill them in that charge, they can easily kill you while your AC is worse than the Wizard (and you're -right there-). Its very narrow in its application.

It's got a lot of room to grow. Feats like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit (Combat Reflexes recommended) let you counter-whomp anybody who tries to take advantage of your lowered AC. Yes, you will be taking damage, but you'll be returning it two or three times over most of the time. Some kind of Pounce (the Complete Champion Barbarian variant is favored here) and other class features, feats, and magic items that increase either damage on a charge or the Power Attack multiplier can ensure that whatever you charge will be very, very dead. Getting extended natural reach along with a reach weapon lets you charge and make your attack from 20+ feet away, along with use control feats like Stand Still or Knock-down to use your AoO's to make sure nothing can get close enough to you to attack.

And, of course, you aren't required to use the Shock Trooper ability. Leap Attack + Power Attack will still put out good damage against anything you would prefer to keep your AC up to fight.

Talic
2007-12-08, 01:18 AM
Which is why the other feats, like Elusive Target, or Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike/Combat Reflexes are used to cover your low AC. You hit me, I hit you back for the same I hit originally. Twice. For... 9* level+damage*3

Well, the advantage of this build is that the pc's using it are rollin' with d10's and d12's for HP, usually bonus rage hp, and such. So they can take a hit.

I've seen it incorporated with the Combat Brute Tactical feat for a followup hit on the second round at good damage. Elusive target works well for negating power attack if you've got a lot of fighter levels. Also, I believe the Ronin PrC has an ability allowing to boost Damage by subtracting AC (not power attack, either). Could be wrong on that one, but it's something to consider for adding to the sheer damage of that build.

Still, at mid-high levels, if you're looking non-core, the cleric even without DMM can use a Rod of quickening, to drop both in the 1st round, and still have a move action left to position with afterwards