Leadership Army.

[Asmotherion]

Thought experiment: What's the best class your Lower Level followers can have? I'm talking mostly about the 1st level followers you get (as you get a LOT of them). For this experiment, we're building an Army, thus please refrain from suggesting Crafting Factories (Unless they are intended to craft something usable as a Weapon, such as, for example, Poisons, Scrolls of Magic Missile or Alchemical Bombs).

My solution so far is giving them a Warlock level; At-Will Eldritch Blast, that is a Ranged Touch Attack and deals 1d6 damage. Also a single Invocation, that's also usable at-Will (See the Unseen seems quite useful, but feel free to suggest any other ).

This could give you a respectable army to command.

The other solution comes from the other Invocation using class, Dragonfire Adept; A Breath Weapon is always a good solution for At-Will damage, possibly even better than Eldritch Blast (especially if they use their 1st level feat on Entangling Exhalation). That said, I favored the Warlock over the Dragonfire Adept as his damage type is Untyped, which is virtually never resisted.

As this is purelly a thought experiment, please consider the DM Allowing you to take your followers into battle, and that he rules favorably on any kind of unclear rules. Go! :)

[InvisibleBison]

I don't think warlocks are that great of a choice. A d6 hit die and only light armor proficiency means they're not all that tough, and eldritch blast only has a range of 60 feet. A 1st level warrior is going to have higher AC, more hit points, longer ranged and more damaging attacks, and fares better in melee combat as well.

The real answer is probably a caster of some sort (probably clerics), but I think crusaders are strong contenders if we want a martial character. A d10 hit die and heavy armor and shield proficiency makes them pretty tough against weapon attacks, their maneuvers give them access to extra damage and self-healing, and they have both Ride as a class skill and proficiency with ranged weapons, allowing them to function as infantry, cavalry, or archers as needed.

[Asmotherion]

I don't think warlocks are that great of a choice. A d6 hit die and only light armor proficiency means they're not all that tough, and eldritch blast only has a range of 60 feet. A 1st level warrior is going to have higher AC, more hit points, longer ranged and more damaging attacks, and fares better in melee combat as well.

The real answer is probably a caster of some sort (probably clerics), but I think crusaders are strong contenders if we want a martial character. A d10 hit die and heavy armor and shield proficiency makes them pretty tough against weapon attacks, their maneuvers give them access to extra damage and self-healing, and they have both Ride as a class skill and proficiency with ranged weapons, allowing them to function as infantry, cavalry, or archers as needed.

Yes, agreed. But factoring in the Untyped Damage and the fact Warlocks target touch AC I think they are a better option in the long run. They die more easy, but can still hit stuff with a higher CR, should they get the chance to get a turn.

I still consider your answear a good option, don't get me wrong.

Could you elaborate on Casters (Clerics) answear? Is it some crafting chain?

The Crusader (and really, any option from ToB) seems like an excelent pick, I like it a lot.

[Malphegor]

By default afaik your Followers can only take npc classes (unless you take 5 levels in Yakuza to let them be Rogues), so I would say probably a spellcasting npc class like Magewright, or even maybe Noble from dragonlance campaign setting…

Actually yeah Noble could be fun. Followers can easily hit the hundreds quickly with decent charisma, items, and extra followers feat, so with the power of each of them being Nobles you can invoke a ton of favours to borrow equipment and information as story enhancers. Can’t be used to negate gameplay but can be used to grease the wheels to make the plot happen smoother.

So for example rather than questing to find the location of the Orb of Evil Evilry and Devilish Devilry, you instead call on the Thinktank of helpful nobles sworn to you to check their rolodexes and see if anyone they know has data or maps or documwnts about the Orb’s last known location, and supply of equipment to handle it safely


Rogues via yakuza are wild though. so many sneak attacks and so many useful skills for a range of things

[ExLibrisMortis]

Assuming you can build your followers like PCs (if not, I second what Malphegor wrote), I'd go with something like this:

Azurin crusader 1
14/13/15/10/12/8
Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces)
Shape Soulmeld (Therapeutic Mantle)
Bonus Essentia
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity

12 hit points, Steely Resolve 5, DR 6/magic, and Martial Spirit heals an additional 2 hit points per successful melee attack, for a total of 4 hp/hit. Martial Spirit healing can be directed towards any ally within 30 feet, so you can pile lots of healing onto a single crusader, should it be required.

(If Martial Spirit counts as a first-level effect for the purpose of Therapeutic Mantle, you heal an extra point per attack, so ask your DM about that one.)
(You can also run warforged crusaders with Adamantine Body, dropping Astral Vambraces. That leaves you with DR 2/adamantine, +4 healing on Martial Spirit, and some nice resistances.)

It's quite possible that more of a mix is best, combining--say--healing crusaders with charging orc barbarians. Throw in a couple of marshals, too.

[InvisibleBison]

Yes, agreed. But factoring in the Untyped Damage and the fact Warlocks target touch AC I think they are a better option in the long run. They die more easy, but can still hit stuff with a higher CR, should they get the chance to get a turn.

I suppose the best choice for your army depends on what sort of threats your army is expected to fight. I was assuming they'd mostly be facing other armies of low-level humanoids; bringing in higher-CR creatures does make targeting touch AC more valuable.


Could you elaborate on Casters (Clerics) answear? Is it some crafting chain?

I didn't put a lot of thought into that aside; casters are generally the best at everything in 3.5, so I assumed they'd prove to be the best at this as well, and I guessed clerics would be the best because they get reasonably good non-magic combat ability and flexible healing options.

[Anthrowhale]

Hengeyokai[Sparrow] Warlocks taking Surrogate Spellcasting. Base AC 24 and +14 to hit on a 1d6 touch attack that can be fired every round all day long. Also 50' flight.

You would want a mixture of invocations.

Eldritch Spear -- some have 250' range.
Darkness -- to obscure enemies.
Devil's sight -- to shoot enemies in the darkness

(and possibly others)

[Darg]

Assuming you can build your followers like PCs (if not, I second what Malphegor wrote), I'd go with something like this:

Azurin crusader 1
14/13/15/10/12/8
Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces)
Shape Soulmeld (Therapeutic Mantle)
Bonus Essentia
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity

12 hit points, Steely Resolve 5, DR 6/magic, and Martial Spirit heals an additional 2 hit points per successful melee attack, for a total of 4 hp/hit. Martial Spirit healing can be directed towards any ally within 30 feet, so you can pile lots of healing onto a single crusader, should it be required.

(If Martial Spirit counts as a first-level effect for the purpose of Therapeutic Mantle, you heal an extra point per attack, so ask your DM about that one.)
(You can also run warforged crusaders with Adamantine Body, dropping Astral Vambraces. That leaves you with DR 2/adamantine, +4 healing on Martial Spirit, and some nice resistances.)

It's quite possible that more of a mix is best, combining--say--healing crusaders with charging orc barbarians. Throw in a couple of marshals, too.

Expanded Soulmeld Capacity requires meldshaper level 1st. Even if we say that shape soulmeld gives meldshaper levels that would qualify, the character would still need to be 2nd level.

[Maat Mons]

An army moves on its stomach, as the saying goes, so Warforged would make for an incredible logistical advantage. Also, disease was historically a huge deal for military forces.

I think Warlock is pretty darn good. One potential issue is with alignments. It’s been a long time since I looked at the Leadership rules, but I seem to remember something about followers needing to have similar alignments to yours. Warlocks have to be Chaotic or Evil, and if you’re the sort of person to refuse to associate with Evil individuals, that leaves you with only CG and CN as possible alignments for your followers. That would be very awkward for a Lawfully-aligned character.

Some questions:
Can the followers have flaws? (With attendant bonus feats, I mean.)
Do you need to find followers of the classes you want? Or can you train Commoners to lose the Commoner level for a good class?
Do you have to pay out of your own pockets for followers’ equipment?
Are you allowed to give followers more gear than their wealth-by-level as NPCs would normally allow for?
Can you cast Mineralize Warrior on your followers?
To what extent are we worried about losing Leadership score because of followers dying in the line of duty?

[Twurps]

If anything goes:
Druids, buffing their animal companion are hard to beat.
Wizards can do something similar when they trade their familiar for an animal companion.

If a mix of followers is possibel: Bards spamming inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration, and marshals spamming several aura's are golden. Put them in the back with a bow, because whatever.
Mix in some decent frontliners (seconding the crusader suggested above), and the casters can buff the crusaders instead of the animal companions. (And crusaders can actually heal the animal companions if they have 'access healing')

[aglondier]

It might well be the case where incoming followers must be npc classes, but there is no reason you can't retrain them into something useful once you have them...

[Bad Wolf]

Actually yeah Noble could be fun. Followers can easily hit the hundreds quickly with decent charisma, items, and extra followers feat, so with the power of each of them being Nobles you can invoke a ton of favours to borrow equipment and information as story enhancers. Can’t be used to negate gameplay but can be used to grease the wheels to make the plot happen smoother.

So for example rather than questing to find the location of the Orb of Evil Evilry and Devilish Devilry, you instead call on the Thinktank of helpful nobles sworn to you to check their rolodexes and see if anyone they know has data or maps or documwnts about the Orb’s last known location, and supply of equipment to handle it safely



At that point, aren't you just role-playing a large mobile kingdom?

[Clause]

About the OP, i have some sugestions for your army:

Ninjas -an invisible army at first round would be strong

Knights - the bonus of the challenge and heavi armors, looks awesome.

And the most powerfull thing:

Human cloistered clerics of Tyr: war domain, forge domain(or law devotion), knowledge devotion, Hand fo tyr feat(take off your off hand and get bonus in dice rolls). Plus armor And cure or aid spells. This gonna be crazy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I didn't put a lot of thought into that aside; casters are generally the best at everything in 3.5, so I assumed they'd prove to be the best at this as well, and I guessed clerics would be the best because they get reasonably good non-magic combat ability and flexible healing options.

Clerics do have some neat options even at level 1. With domains to do things like increase CL for certain spells, many divine feats being completely level-independent and the sheer variety of options available for either you'll have a very versatile and powerful army (relative to their level of course).

Also with Divine Conduit (DrCo) you can have them fuel metamagic for more powerful casters (or yourself).

If you do get to choose your feats there's also Circle Magic (GW) and Cooperative Spell (CArc) to make them punch far above their level.

[Crake]

By default afaik your Followers can only take npc classes (unless you take 5 levels in Yakuza to let them be Rogues), so I would say probably a spellcasting npc class like Magewright, or even maybe Noble from dragonlance campaign setting…

Its actually even more restrictive than this. They can only be commoners, experts, or warriors. Anything else incurs a “level adjustment” as per the ELH. Adept and aristocrats are LA2, PC classes are LA 3, and characters with a prestige class are LA 5.


It might well be the case where incoming followers must be npc classes, but there is no reason you can't retrain them into something useful once you have them...

You could, yeah, but it would still incur the above LA

[Jackaccount]

Pretty sure leadership cohorts are restricted to NPC classes, although there are some prestige classes like Yakuza that can change that (also feats like guild master, although I need to dig into those more).

Maybe go for something like half orc paragon 3, orc paragon 2, orc warlord 5, legendary leader 5, Yakuza 5? You'd have a massive army of raging orc rogues who are immune to fear as long as they see you. This probably isn't too skill efficient however, I just threw it together.

[aglondier]

Its actually even more restrictive than this. They can only be commoners, experts, or warriors. Anything else incurs a “level adjustment” as per the ELH. Adept and aristocrats are LA2, PC classes are LA 3, and characters with a prestige class are LA 5.



You could, yeah, but it would still incur the above LA

Interesting. Not doubting you, but could we get page ref for that?

[InvisibleBison]

Interesting. Not doubting you, but could we get page ref for that?

ELH p. 37.
Though given the content of the first post, I think it's safe to assume that rule isn't in play for the purpose of this thread (which is why I didn't mention it in my initial reply).

[aglondier]

ELH p. 37.
Though given the content of the first post, I think it's safe to assume that rule isn't in play for the purpose of this thread (which is why I didn't mention it in my initial reply).

Is that the 3.0 or 3.5 Epic Level Handbook? Not very familiar with acronyms.

[Fiery Diamond]

By default afaik your Followers can only take npc classes


It might well be the case where incoming followers must be npc classes, but there is no reason you can't retrain them into something useful once you have them...


Its actually even more restrictive than this. They can only be commoners, experts, or warriors. Anything else incurs a “level adjustment” as per the ELH. Adept and aristocrats are LA2, PC classes are LA 3, and characters with a prestige class are LA 5.



You could, yeah, but it would still incur the above LA

Actually, no. That's the 3.0 rules, not the 3.5 rules.

This isn't actually true in 3.5. It was true in 3.0, but the majority of references to this have been removed in 3.5 (compare the 3.5 Epic Leadership to the 3.0 Epic Leadership, and it becomes clear that this removal was intentional). The only remnant that remains in the core rules is the phrase "low-level NPCs" in the description of Followers in the Leadership feat (contrasting cohorts to followers), but "NPC" doesn't mean "has an NPC class," as NPCs with PC classes are still called NPCs.

[InvisibleBison]

Is that the 3.0 or 3.5 Epic Level Handbook? Not very familiar with acronyms.

There's only one version of the Epic Level Handbook. It was published during 3.0, but received an official 3.5 update which only updated the table of example epic cohorts.

[Akal Saris]

Actually, no. That's the 3.0 rules, not the 3.5 rules.

This isn't actually true in 3.5. It was true in 3.0, but the majority of references to this have been removed in 3.5 (compare the 3.5 Epic Leadership to the 3.0 Epic Leadership, and it becomes clear that this removal was intentional). The only remnant that remains in the core rules is the phrase "low-level NPCs" in the description of Followers in the Leadership feat (contrasting cohorts to followers), but "NPC" doesn't mean "has an NPC class," as NPCs with PC classes are still called NPCs.

Interesting - I never noticed the update since 3.0, and none of my players ever questioned me on it when I told them their followers had to take NPC levels. Oops :tongue:

[Gruftzwerg]

My solution so far is giving them a Warlock level; At-Will Eldritch Blast, that is a Ranged Touch Attack and deals 1d6 damage. Also a single Invocation, that's also usable at-Will (See the Unseen seems quite useful, but feel free to suggest any other ).


Imho Summon Swarm overshadows all other options a 1st lvl warlock has.
It's a standard action as invocation and thus much more exploitable then the normal spell version. Since it does it's dmg at the end of turn, you can just recast it every turn to have full control where they are and what they attack.
It automatically does dmg and ignores things like AC.
Also remind you that a batswarm can deal with invisible foes.

And if you want to exploit your followers to the fullest, be a 10th lvl Verminlord and abuse your Hivemind ability with the swarms produced by your followers. Epic spellcasting for free. Do I need to say more here?^^

[Crake]

compare the 3.5 Epic Leadership to the 3.0 Epic Leadership, and it becomes clear that this removal was intentional

Where exactly is the 3.5 epic leadership feat? Its not in the DMG

[Gruftzwerg]

Where exactly is the 3.5 epic leadership feat? Its not in the DMG

It seems to be at least in the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#tableEpicLeadership).

What is missing is this:

OPTIONAL RULE: EXCEPTIONAL FOLLOWERS

Though followers are normally warriors, experts, or commoners, your DM might allow you to have characters of other classes as followers. If you use this optional rule, adept or aristocrat followers count as followers of two levels higher than their actual character level. A follower with any levels in a PC class counts as a follower three levels higher than his character level. A follower with any levels in a prestige class counts as a follower five levels higher than his character level. This reflects the fact that such characters are rarely followers and are much more likely to be unique characters in their own right

For example, a 6th-level commoner, warrior, or expert counts as a 6th-level follower. A 6th-level adept or aristocrat would count as an 8th-level follower. A 6th-level fighter or 3rd-level aristocrat/3rd-level wizard would count as an 9th-level follower. A 5th-level rogue/1st-level assassin would count as an 11th-level follower.

I think that is a general (normal) Leadership change from 3.0 to 3.5

3.5 doesn't force npc into picking npc classes. Like, does any of the advanced monsters in the MM use any of the NPC classes? I don't think so IIRC.
3.5's mindset about npc classes has changed so far that it has become the exception when NPC's don't use the regular classes (except for commoners). I mean is there any splatbook that has NPC classes? (except maybe BoVD depending on your viewpoint of evil PCs).

[AnonJr]

I mean is there any splatbook that has NPC classes? (except maybe BoVD depending on your viewpoint of evil PCs).

Only one that comes to mind is the Eberron Campaign Setting, and that gave the Magewright. Seems like they'd follow the same rules as an Adept?

[Crake]

3.5's mindset about npc classes has changed so far that it has become the exception when NPC's don't use the regular classes (except for commoners). I mean is there any splatbook that has NPC classes? (except maybe BoVD depending on your viewpoint of evil PCs).

I dont think this is the case at all. It seems more a case of some form of bias, where the only npcs you pay attention to are the exceptional ones with PC classes, but leadership followers are explicitly NOT exceptional, they’re just regular people.

[aglondier]

I dont think this is the case at all. It seems more a case of some form of bias, where the only npcs you pay attention to are the exceptional ones with PC classes, but leadership followers are explicitly NOT exceptional, they’re just regular people.

Which means there is nothing preventing you from retraining your npc followers into something useful.

[Crake]

Which means there is nothing preventing you from retraining your npc followers into something useful.

I mean, there is, rebuilding a character is explicitly something that the DM has to create content for, and retraining can only be done on levelup, which followers cannot do since they gain no xp.

[aglondier]

I mean, there is, rebuilding a character is explicitly something that the DM has to create content for, and retraining can only be done on levelup, which followers cannot do since they gain no xp.

Or the DM could say that you can retrain/rebuild your npc class followers as long as you spend the cash and have a suitable trainer lined up. Most DMs I know are happy to let players blow cash on things that won't directly improve their combat ability...

And just remember, if your minimum 7th level player is dragging a bunch of 1st level npcs into a dungeon with him, it doesn't matter what class they are, they're going to die. And when that happens, they will get a Leadership penalty for causing the deaths of previous followers...and have wasted the cash they spent on retraining...

As for the OP, well, my character (dwarf fighter/magus) in my current pathfinder campaign has just gained Leadership. His cohort is a dwarf warpriest. The followers, as they trickle in, are going to fill mostly non-combat roles in my Mercenary Company. Cooks, smiths, armourers, teamsters, admin, etc. The rest will be retrained into Fighters with teamwork feats wielding either shield and waraxe or longhammer. With the right feats and equipment they should be able to punch well above their weight class...even if all they face is basic bandits on caravan guard missions. My cohort will run the day to day business of the Company, leaving my character free to adventure...

[Crake]

Or the DM could say that you can retrain/rebuild your npc class followers as long as you spend the cash and have a suitable trainer lined up. Most DMs I know are happy to let players blow cash on things that won't directly improve their combat ability...

Maybe pathfinder retraining is different, but in 3.5 retraining feats/skills/class features can only be done on levelup, and rebuilding, to change your class levels, requires a whole DM custom built mini-adventure for it. Its not just “have a trainer and pay some money”.

[Maat Mons]

Since you ask, yes, Pathfinder makes it much easier to swap out levels. So easy that, by RAW, it takes at most two weeks to swap a single level (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Class%20Level&Category=Retraining), even if you’re turning a 1st-level commoner into a 1st-level Wizard. I imagine most DMs would houserule that particular exchange to take longer though.

[Crake]

Since you ask, yes, Pathfinder makes it much easier to swap out levels. So easy that, by RAW, it takes at most two weeks to swap a single level (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Class%20Level&Category=Retraining), even if you’re turning a 1st-level commoner into a 1st-level Wizard. I imagine most DMs would houserule that particular exchange to take longer though.

Yeah, I didnt bother looking, since the OP is referring to warlocks and DFA, so I gathered they were playing 3.5

[Curbludgeon]

Since it looks like sources are getting a little jumbled, I'll add a level in Master taken at 7th or later can get a follower pool (all experts, ranks in Profession+Cha=Leadership score).

I've wanted to mix that with a city-mech from Dragonmech, the Orc Warlord class, and the changes in Power of Faerun.
The stub would be something like Mark II Steamborg 2/Meck Jockey4/Barbarian1/Master1/Orc Warlord 3/Mech Symbiote 4/Assimilated 5. Followers would be a mix of Orc and Tik'tok Experts and Coglayers. The cohort should be something magical, but I'd want to make a Coglayer/Cogworm/Gearwright.