The Weave Whisperer, an arcane caster who draws power from being subjected to danger

[NCat]

Hi! While I've had experience homebrewing in 5e, I've always wanted to take a crack at writing for 3.5, as such, this is my first foray into brewing for the edition. I hope you guys like it <:

The linked class is a backport of the first ever class I wrote for 5e, which has been redone as to fit into 3.5's design space whilst keeping the same base concepts.


Here is a link: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ChwlJa4k1_Ij

The mechanics of the class, is that its an arcane caster with a slowed progression (Capping out at 7th levels at level 19), who uses a spell point esque system. The catch to it, is that they have a very small amount of points to start out with at the beginning of each day, but, as "bad" stuff happens to them, they gain tension. For instance, all weave whisperers by default have the ability to have damage they recieve be converted into tension (the spell points) gained, and as they gain levels they learn absorptions, alternative methods to gain tension such as when an enemy casts a spell, or an ally falls below half hitpoints for the first time in a day, or when an ally rolls a 1 on an attack.

Im pretty happy with how it turned out overall, though, of course, there are things I'd definitely like feedback on. Primarily, while I think the amount of tension you gain regularly is pretty alright, I'm unsure whether the amount of tension you gain from absorptions is too high or not. Furthermore, I'd like some feedback on the spell preparation. The class for flavor reasons can ready any spell on the wiz/sorc list, to a maximum combined level equal to their maximum tension, and while mathematically im pretty sure this is alright in terms of how many total spells they can bring in a day (as the variety of total spells is lower than a wizard), I'd still like a once over on that.

With that, thank you very much <: , hopefully the concepts presented here were interesting to read <3

[Beni-Kujaku]

This is very nice! I like the concept, and the implementation is also quite good. I'm always a bit suspicious of classes effectively knowing the whole Sorc/Wiz spell list, but I guess the low amount of spells per day and the delayed progression make up for it.
You might want to cap the number of TP you can gain by losing HP to your max HP, and probably only gain one TP per 2 HP lost. Currently, you can have a WW10/Cleric 1 cutting themselves, then casting lesser Vigor from their cleric side, then using the TP to cast Mage's Lucubration and recover three lesser Vigors. In the end, in 133 rounds (13 minutes), you gain 33-7=26 TP while finishing at full life. Even earlier and faster if you use Divine Readying. It seems a little easy to abuse. HP loss should be the least useful Absorption, to incentivize taking better ones. I'd probably go as far as gaining only one TP for 3 HP lost, one per ability damage, and two per point of ability drain.
The other absorptions are nice, but I'm not sure about them basically giving you informations about the number of HD and BAB of an opponent. Maybe add a luck factor in there, like HD-1d4 TP gained. Also use HD instead of BAB. It's generally not that different for most creatures, and is more streamlined with other methods of absorption.
Same thing with the spells. I'd say you gain 1 TP, or the spell's level if you succesfully identified it using Spellcraft.

Also (not necessary, but could be interesting), you could say that you can't recover TP except in a somewhat dangerous situation (encounter or trap with a CR of at least your ECL-4). That should cover people attacking toads until they get crit fails.
This rule does not count the Cha TP you gain after preparing your spells.

Divine Readying is a very dangerous feat to balance on a class using damage to gain resources. It's no problem if it's 3HP/TP, and is only a very side-issue with 2HP/TP and can only gain TP equal to your max HP, but with 1HP/TP every single Conjuration (Healing) spell becomes infinite TP, or close to it. The easy fix would be to just disallow Conjuration spells, but that's one of the main draw of the cleric spell list in the first place.

You may want to make Tension Expansion scale like Psionic Talent (gain 4 TP the first time, then 6, then 8...). The whisperer's armor is also quite bad, and I would probably make it 2TP/HP rather than 4.

Honestly the feats are really flavorful, varied and on-theme. Congrats!

[NCat]

Thanks very much for reading it <:

Ah, thats a good point on capping it to an amount equal to your daily HP per day. Thats a pretty good way to reign them in that I totally wish I had thought up earlier. Also 100% agree on the hp loss going to a 1:2 rate rather than 1:1. Im 50/50 on it being 1:3 or 1:2, mathematically the amount of tension you gain that way even if reduced down to 1 or zero (Even at 1:1 actually) should be lower than the amount of spellcasting per day other casters can do, though with the absorptions it muddies that math since Im not actually as sure about how strong they are and what you can get away with using them. Though, yeah, bringing them down to 1:2 should probably create a decent enough 'buffer' so as that even if they are better than intended they still give out a safe amount of tension.


The other absorptions are nice, but I'm not sure about them basically giving you informations about the number of HD and BAB of an opponent. Maybe add a luck factor in there, like HD-1d4 TP gained. Also use HD instead of BAB. It's generally not that different for most creatures, and is more streamlined with other methods of absorption.

I honestly agree completely. I went for hitdice since I wanted to have a decent way of scaling them with enemies as you leveled, but I didn't really like it as much then since it did give away information. If I can find a more elegant solution, I'll 100% make the switch. The d4 is actually a pretty good way to decrease the quality of information given, though yeah, I still do wish there was a cleaner way of doing it.

As for the usage of BAB in them, that was I think me trying to make it scale with how dangerous an enemies martial combat skill was? Though, yeah, it is just better to use hit dice there.



Oh yeah, the use of a spellcraft check there is actually pretty smart. Implementing that



Also (not necessary, but could be interesting), you could say that you can't recover TP except in a somewhat dangerous situation (encounter or trap with a CR of at least your ECL-4). That should cover people attacking toads until they get crit fails.

Thats a very straightforward way of going about it Ill also throw in. The way I designed it was to try and make it so on its own it couldn't be cheesed, but yeah I forgot such tools like that could be used to avoid cheese. Added to the absorption rules with a minimum of ECL-4, though I do wonder if this could lead to scenarios where say, the DM throws a horde of low challenge rating monsters at you could cause problems, since they are individually low CR, but collectively still dangerous. Perhaps a less rulesy, more DM ruling dependent "If the DM rules that it isnt dangerous" approach could work? But with that I dont like that because leaving a class feature to "if your DM says so" is poor design in my eyes


It's no problem if it's 3HP/TP, and is only a very side-issue with 2HP/TP and can only gain TP equal to your max HP, but with 1HP/TP every single Conjuration (Healing) spell becomes infinite TP, or close to it.

Ah! theres actually already a built in stop to this, that being in the rules on tension, quote "If by some means a weave whisperer would attempt to cast a spell that restores hitpoints using tension, the spell automatically fails without expending any tension."

So, the feat cannot grant you the ability to cast healing with tension, since nothing lets you cast healing with tension. With that, its mostly just used to grab a handful of off list cleric spells, which I put in to fit a bit with the aesthetic of them doing arcane magic in a kinda divine way (and to let them get the Attonement spell on class)


You may want to make Tension Expansion scale like Psionic Talent (gain 4 TP the first time, then 6, then 8...). The whisperer's armor is also quite bad, and I would probably make it 2TP/HP rather than 4.

Ooh I forgot about Psionic Talent. Implemented.

As for whisperers armor. Yeah... True it kinda sucks. I think I went too hard on trying to be careful with it, but a rate of 2:1 works decently, especially since this is a class where having a large amount of tension already means that you're going to really need it to stay alive.


Thank you very very much for your feedback <3

(heres a link to the version with the implemented updates: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BKED1qFP_lDI)

[Maat Mons]

Some random comments:

Traditionally, in 3rd edition, “2/3rds casters,” as we call them, cap out at 6th level spells.
Having a continuous version of Detect Magic that works more quickly seems a lot like having Arcane Sight.
Traditionally, in 3rd edition, you don’t have one big pool of spells known / prepared / retrieved. Instead, you have a separate pool for each spell levels, a la Sorcerer / Arcanist (PF1e) / Spirit Shaman.
There are several sources of infinite healing in 3rd edition. Fast Healing and Regeneration are the most well-known. Dragon Shaman, Touch of Healing, and Martial Spirit are some others.
Infinite ability damage healing is also a thing with Binder.
Enemy hit dice can scale very rapidly in 3rd edition. For example, a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion is CR 12, but has 40 HD.
Do spells that grant Temporary Hit Points fall under the prohibition against using Tension to cast healing spells?
Do attacks that deal nonlethal damage still grant Tension?
If you have Damage Reduction, are you granted Tension based on the attack’s damage before or after your DR is applied?
The class as a whole trades magical potency (max spell level) for magical endurance (how many times per day you can cast your spells). Whether this is a balanced trade will always depend on the pacing of a given campaign. In a campaign that predominantly has short adventuring days, the normal casters won’t have used up their spells anyway, so Weave Whisperer’s improved endurance will not provide any benefit.
This class might not actually facilitate longer adventuring days at all. If you’re taking damage to fuel your abilities, you may have to stop for the day because the divine caster in your party ran out of spells to heal you with. That means your adventuring day winds up being limited by available spell slots anyway, just not yours.

[NCat]

On those comments:


I am aware, and considered making them 2/3rds at a much earlier stage of writing, though, I ended up going for a 1-7 progression since stopping at 6th level felt a little bit too low for the classes intended gameplay, while going all the way to 8s and 9s also didnt feel right. There is a minor precident in such a casting being a thing with the Factotum who does also progress up to 7th levels, though then again the factotum is quite strange.
I forgot about Arcane Sight, giving the class a built in version of that seems like a far cleaner way to go about it. Ill make that change, and have the scaling be based on range.
That I am aware of, though I went for the basing it off of your tension maximum because design like that where it reuses a trait like that to determine stuff just entertains me. I'd have no problem switching the retrieval from a pool system to a slot esque system instead if people preferred. So yeah, this design tradition break was intentional.
They should be covered at this point by limiting the amount of healing based tension you gain in a day in the newer version so as to avoid infinite spells. Though, yeah that does cut away some of the risk in the class. At the very least from most of those, they're slow-ish, and as such cant be used very actively in combat.
Im personally embarrassed to have forgotten that oops. The binder is my favourite class and I straight up forgot about old naberius. Ill add in the same limit per day as there is to health-based tension gain.
In the design phase I compared using hit dice and CR, and went for hit dice since I felt CR was something that was meant to be much more of a "hidden" stat than hitdice. Would it be better to use challenge rating?
My intent in design was that damage to temp HP wouldn't provide tension, though I think I missed adding that line in.
Yes, nonlethal damage still gives tension. A lose condition of death compared to a lose condition of capture or etc is still the end result of a battle you're trying to win.
True, that is true. Thats just a cost of the way the game is designed and campaigns are run.
Ah, I'll note though that the class's intent isnt solely "longer adventuring days", but instead more a reactive "having enough firepower for the situation" type deal. On a day where your party is really having a rough time, you are able to equally then respond with a lot more fire power to even it out. The concept is less "Cast spells longer" and more "My DM threw a more dangerous scenario than normal at us, luckily as per my class, this actually makes me stronger and more capable of responding"


Thank you for the feedback <:

[Maat Mons]

Another way to scale it would be:
7th: Arcane Sight
13th: Greater Arcane Sight
19th: True Seeing

[NCat]

Another way to scale it would be:
7th: Arcane Sight
13th: Greater Arcane Sight
19th: True Seeing


OOH! Yet better! Ill be doing that

[nonsi]

Traditionally, in 3rd edition, “2/3rds casters,” as we call them, cap out at 6th level spells.



I wouldn't set it in stone. Theme and balance are more important.
For instance, I saw quite a few Witch proposals (I have one as well) that ended up with 7th SL.

[lesser_minion]

I think this is a cool idea, but I do have a couple of minor questions for now:

The class gets heavy armour proficiency, but I didn't see anything that helps with casting arcane spells in armour. Is this intended?
Do tension and energy drain interact? Do you lose tension for gaining a negative level like normal casters, gain it, or some combination of the two?


I'm also not 100% sure about the blanks in the 'special' column. While a single-classed character would get a feat at all of those levels, they're all followed by levels where you gain a bunch of new spells and another class feature.

[NCat]

I think this is a cool idea, bur I do have a couple of minor questions for now:

The class gets heavy armour proficiency, but I didn't see anything that helps with casting arcane spells in armour. Is this intended?
Do tension and energy drain interact? Do you lose tension for gaining a negative level like normal casters, gain it, or some combination of the two?


I'm also not 100% sure about the blanks in the 'special' column. While a single-classed character would get a feat at all of those levels, they're all followed by levels where you gain a bunch of new spells and another class feature.



The heavy armor proficiency lets you play a smite-whisperer, with you casting a couple spells at the start of the day (probably some persistent ones), donning heavy armor, and then using absorptions and building with the aim of utilizing the Arcane Pulse feat. It lets the class play as a caster, but also play as a straightforward hit-em-with-a-stick type build if thats what you prefer. Plus, if you wanna go spell and armor, 3.5e has ways to build into that if thats what you prefer, as well as equipment that can do that too. On a pure, straightforward weave whisperer, it means that armor as an items can be more valuable.
Ooh thats a good point with negative energy. I hadn't considered what to do with it. My thoughts is that it would leave your current amount of tension alone (since, losing levels isnt exactly something that makes your situation less dangerous), but I would have it make you lose Maximum Tension, and in turn also cause you to lose readied spells. Ill add in a note saying that.
I tend to think of feats being equivilent to class features, and the class already has a bunch of features. Most classes tend to have a few blank levels, and I think spacing them out so as that they all fall on feat levels is the best way to go about them, since feats are quite a big part of character building. Though, if leaving blanks is problematic, I wouldn't mind putting a small feature to fill in those levels. Nothing too strong, probably something thematic rather than anything that shifts the power of the class around, but yeah.

[lesser_minion]

The heavy armor proficiency lets you play a smite-whisperer, with you casting a couple spells at the start of the day (probably some persistent ones), donning heavy armor, and then using absorptions and building with the aim of utilizing the Arcane Pulse feat. It lets the class play as a caster, but also play as a straightforward hit-em-with-a-stick type build if thats what you prefer. Plus, if you wanna go spell and armor, 3.5e has ways to build into that if thats what you prefer, as well as equipment that can do that too. On a pure, straightforward weave whisperer, it means that armor as an items can be more valuable.

I don't think it's usual for 3e classes to get proficiency in armour that'd cause them problems, but I mainly asked because it looked like it could've been a 5e-ism that slipped through the net. As long as it's intended, I think it's fine.


Ooh thats a good point with negative energy. I hadn't considered what to do with it. My thoughts is that it would leave your current amount of tension alone (since, losing levels isnt exactly something that makes your situation less dangerous), but I would have it make you lose Maximum Tension, and in turn also cause you to lose readied spells. Ill add in a note saying that.

Yeah, the main reason I asked was that it seemed like there'd be a few different ways to approach it. Since you're using flexible spell preparation, I don't think I like the idea of losing prepared spells to energy drain though -- wizards and clerics don't if you're using the spell point variant, and I'm pretty sure the Arcanist doesn't in Pathfinder either. Since the hp penalty reduces the amount of tension you can get back from damage in a day anyway, it might be simplest to just leave it at that, maybe with a clause that hit points lost to energy drain don't grant tension.


I tend to think of feats being equivilent to class features, and the class already has a bunch of features. Most classes tend to have a few blank levels, and I think spacing them out so as that they all fall on feat levels is the best way to go about them, since feats are quite a big part of character building. Though, if leaving blanks is problematic, I wouldn't mind putting a small feature to fill in those levels. Nothing too strong, probably something thematic rather than anything that shifts the power of the class around, but yeah.


The way you've handled it isn't bad -- lining dead levels up with levels divisible by 3 isn't unusual in 3e homebrew, as far as I'm aware. I only brought it up because the 'dead' levels are all followed by levels that effectively get double class features.

With Eyes of the Magus, it might be worth going with Arcane Sight -> Greater Arcane Sight -> Analyze Dweomer for the progression. Analyze Dweomer seems more fitting for a "you understand magic" ability than True Seeing.

[NCat]

Yeah, the main reason I asked was that it seemed like there'd be a few different ways to approach it. Since you're using flexible spell preparation, I don't think I like the idea of losing prepared spells to energy drain though -- wizards and clerics don't if you're using the spell point variant, and I'm pretty sure the Arcanist doesn't in Pathfinder either. Since the hp penalty reduces the amount of tension you can get back from damage in a day anyway, it might be simplest to just leave it at that, maybe with a clause that hit points lost to energy drain don't grant tension.

True, that makes sense. Ill change it to have that instead. Though I liked the idea of making it reduce maximum tension a little bit, so I think Ill keep that part, and chuck out the losing prepared spells aspect.



The way you've handled it isn't bad -- lining dead levels up with levels divisible by 3 isn't unusual in 3e homebrew, as far as I'm aware. I only brought it up because the 'dead' levels are all followed by levels that effectively get double class features.

The levels you do get double class features (That being spell progression alongside something else) mostly just gives bonus feats, or further progression on eye of the magus. Which, I think is fair enough? Though, I dont remember if classes do give out bonus feats on the same level as regular feats, but if they do, then I'll probably make all of those go down a level, since that way, ignoring character level based feats, you get something at each level of progression, which is probably better in the end due to it working more cleanly progression wise if your character is multiclassed


With Eyes of the Magus, it might be worth going with Arcane Sight -> Greater Arcane Sight -> Analyze Dweomer for the progression. Analyze Dweomer seems more fitting for a "you understand magic" ability than True Seeing.


Thats a spell i've completely overlooked, and is definitely on theme, and I do like this as part of Eyes of the Magus. Though, I like true-sight as a capstone since I saw it as a "You understand magic so much as to be able to use magic both to see, and to be able to see past anything that is magical", as in like, "Oh, theres an illusion, I innately see through it as I can simply see that its magical."

Anayze dweomer feels like clean progression in the matter, but it also feels a bit indistinct from the Greater Arcane Sight? The spells give similiar effects-ish, with the core differences being that Analyze dweomer lets you only look at a single creature a round, in exchange for slightly more information (caster level of spells and their effects on a creature, detailed functions of an item). I think it makes less sense as a final evolution of the ability, and if implemented as like, an inbetween of Greater A.S. and TrueSight? Or maybe as an alternate class feature entirely, that lets you cast analyze dweomer for free for a number of rounds each day or such? Hmm. Thats something to think on a little further


On another note, I liked the idea of shifting out the empty levels. Once empty levels now contain either a bonus feat or eyes of the magus progression. Empty levels on fall upon levels with spell progression instead. I like the way that looks, much cleaner.




Ah, and as a side topic, I was loosely considering maybe writing up a, or a couple, PrC's to go with it? The only one that came to mind was perhaps making one for ex-weave whisperers based off the shadow weave, since if the weave has agents, so too arguably would its shadowy counterpart, but thats just a loose concept that I have little idea where to start with I feel. On the other hand with the topic of multiclassing, the way ive written it, it should be able to be compatible with arcane progressing prestige classes right? In which case, theres not a need for it to have much in the way of PrC's custom built probably, since it can use the plentiful number of Arcane PrCs. Part of me wants to dig through them all to see if theres any neat combinations, but I probably wouldnt do that right this instance, since theres a lot of prcs

[Kalkra]

Glancing over it, I'll mention that Polymorph and similar spells restore hitpoints, and losing that is a big blow to any arcane caster. I might add more as I read the rest of it. Looks cool, though.