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Valairn
2007-12-06, 10:10 AM
I love playing a Gish I always have. (For those of you not in the know, it refers to a multi-class fighter/mage more or less.) I also know a lot of people who love playing gish's. Sometimes I get this sense that it's the holy grail of DnD, but I've always wondered, aside from mechanical strengths, what makes people like gish's so much?

So what about Gish's appeal to you?

rollfrenzy
2007-12-06, 10:27 AM
The blend of magic and sword is awesome.

Although you refer to Mechanical benefits. You are going to get a lot of responses showing you why every gish build out there is crap.

but I agree with you. Gish is fun to play regardless of optimization.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-06, 10:42 AM
rollfrenzy pretty much has it right. It's not mechanically optimal but being that guy who can throw a fireball and then turn around and decapitate someone with a greatsword is just plain cool. Much like Necromancy... but I digress.

Valairn
2007-12-06, 11:12 AM
Certain gish builds are actually mechanically strong, depending on your end goal. Though compared to the normal caster cheese, its not anywhere close to comparable.

I guess a good follow on question would be, what are your favorite gish builds?

Keld Denar
2007-12-06, 11:33 AM
A Gish serves a pretty specific role in a party, and 11/12 times, its not the primary arcane caster. A Gish can make an outstanding tank using spells to suppliment AC and HP. A Gish can make a good damage dealer, using spells such as Wraithstrike and/or Whirling Blade and/or Arcane Strike in conjunction with Power Attack and offensive buffs, then he serves a role similar to Arcane Trickster builds. A Gish can even suppliment support, tossing up spells like Mass Fly, Evards, and Solid Fog that don't have saves. That said, a Gish is seldom batman, and almost always breaks the first rule of optimization (thou shalt not lose caster levels!!!!). The biggest weighting factors in a Gish is trying to balance caster levels (more and better spells) with BAB (for Power Attack damage). Some Gish builds value one more than the other.

As far as Gish builds, I've heard quite a few, from the simple:
Fighter/Wizard/Spellsword/Eldritch Knight
To the complicated and sometimes obscene:
Paladin/Sorc/Swiftblade/Eldritch Knight
Paladin/Bard/Sublime Chord/IotSV
Paladin/Bard/Dragon Disciple

The most important things for a Gish is to pick a couple tricks and stick to them. You CAN'T get 9th level spells with DC40 saves and 20/20 BAB. Its just not possible. You CAN get enough of both to be VERY effective, with a little careful planning.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-06, 11:47 AM
It may sound funny, but I liked gishs since when I first played Final Fantasy Tactics. I like to create my character, and then use the rules to build him mechanically. The classic example is the elf that wields both magic and steel. A cleric that requires a few more battle-oriented abilities (feats) is another example. A guy that can both use his sword and his brain (fighter/rogue). It's all about what you want to make.
My latest character (going into epic) is a knight type, mixing paladin and crusader levels, for divine butt-kickery, and a few swordsage levels to make him more flexible, as he's a more running type, instead of armor-clad (not that I dislike knights in shinning armor, I just wanted to variate this time).

I've been actually wondering about making a monk/sorcerer/paladin, a mystical sage fueled with divine power, using those feats that lets you combine classes' features.

Valairn
2007-12-06, 11:48 AM
My current approach is pretty simple actually, with a little DM fiat to help(God bless the nice ones), Fighter/wizard/Abj. Champ/Eldritch Knight. Its got a really solid BaB with pretty decent spells, optimized version still manages 9th level spells before the blessed "cap" of 20.

-Cor-
2007-12-06, 12:06 PM
And once again we come back to the Duskblade. A neat class, and one I'm playing currently. The Channeling gives even more flavor.

Valairn
2007-12-06, 12:12 PM
The Duskblade is pretty much a gish in a can, it keeps well and you can store it :-D, but I prefer the multi-class variants, just because I'm like that.

Thrawn183
2007-12-06, 12:18 PM
Multi-class variants are stronger if well built, because they get better spells than a duskblade, but I think it's pretty tough to find a better class than a duskblade to start a new player in. Give 'em power attack and improved trip, stick 'em in some decent armor and they get all your standard melee'r fun-ness plus the ability to cast a few spells so they don't get bored. I like to think of the duskblade as training wheels for a player wanting to play a gish.

valadil
2007-12-06, 12:51 PM
I like gish because it fits my power gaming style very nicely. I don't like picking one thing and doing it as best as possible. I'd rather pick 3 things and do them each at 90% efficiency (note that this is 90% of the other players at the table, not 90% of whatever is floating around the wotc optimization boards). My favorite gish was something like wizard -> human paragon -> spell sword -> eldritch knight. Also saw a sorc/pally variant that took longer to mature but was also quite nasty.

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 01:04 PM
I two am a fan of Gishes.

One that I enjoyed was:

Duskblade 3/Wizard 2/SpellSword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Phantom Blade 9

You can mix and match for something like Duskblade 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Spell Sword 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Phantom Blade 6 if you enjoy the +2 stat too much.

Or you can use Ruathar to good effect with:

Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Ruathar 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Phantom Blade 7

For 18th level Wizard casting (Caster level 20), 18 BAB, and a host of special abilities

Deepblue706
2007-12-06, 01:13 PM
Don't know what Phantom Blade is, but a favorite Gish build of mine is:

Fighter 1/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight 7.

CL 18, BAB 17 at 20.

Fighter 1 gets you a bonus feat.
Wizard 5 gets you a bonus feat.
EK 1 gets you a bonus feat.

Not many special abilities, tho - but Abjurant Champion grants enough of those, anyway.

I've also always liked gishes for the same reasons as most others. What's cooler than swords, or magic? Swords AND magic! Having lots of options is what makes D&D fun.

Keld Denar
2007-12-06, 01:16 PM
The Whirling Blade spell from Complete Arcane, I think, reprinted in Spell Compendium, I think, seems to have been designed completely with the Gish in mind. It doesn't have a save, so a Gish needs to not have a high caster stat. It is ranged, but counts as melee. It only hits hostile targets, so it can be cast into close melee. It also allows for brutal spell delivery via Spellsword channeling. Since its on the wiz/sorc list AND the bard list, so its useable is different builds. It's also only a level 2 spell! Some things I've seen done with it:

Spellsword using it with Arcane Strike, Power Attack, and channeling Orb of Cold through it for mega damage. At higher levels, casting Twinned Whirling Blade and/or Quickened Whirling Blades for multiple attacks vs a whole line of targets all at highest BAB.

Paladin/Bard/Silver Dragon Disciple using Power Attack, Divine Might, Bard Song, and DD's inherant stat bonuses for big damage.

Combine it with the Mobile Spellcasting feat from Complete Mage, and a decent movement speed (from Fly) and you can line up most foes on most turns and blast down the line of them.

Another nice Gish trick is to use Quickened Benign Transposition (a 5the level spell) in conjuntion with a fast moving familiar (such as a hawk or raven). The familiar moves up to a target with a double move if needed. Cast Quickened BT to swap places with it. Full Attack!

Yrnes
2007-12-06, 01:19 PM
Right now I'm running a

Fighter 1/ Monk 4/ Sorc 2/ Abj Champ 5/ Eldritch Knight 2

Unarmored "armored" AC in the 50s thanks to the class abilities, spells, feats and gear. Plus evasion and the big reflex save is always a nice change of pace for a melee fighter. I got a couple of 10d6 fireballs in spellstoring gauntlets my character wears, so I actually nuke myself (and sometimes some other PCs:smallbiggrin: ) and hope I make the save as I fun headlong into the battle

weenie
2007-12-06, 01:32 PM
One of the best gish builds I've come across is Duskblade3/wizard4/abjurant champion5/Wizard8.

Take Extra spell(divine power) to get your BaB up to 20(which also takes your wizard caster level to 20 tnx to abjurant champion), and channel all the touch spells you like. Oh, and you get 9th level spells and 2 bonus fets as well. Gotta love it.

Akennedy
2007-12-06, 03:02 PM
I hate to sound ignorant, but... Phantom blade?

AmberVael
2007-12-06, 03:11 PM
I've never heard of Phantom Blade either. After consulting my list of classes, I have to assume it is either homebrew, doesn't exist, or that Kaelik was referring to the Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) class.
Rather odd class, really...

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 03:23 PM
I've never heard of Phantom Blade either. After consulting my list of classes, I have to assume it is either homebrew, doesn't exist, or that Kaelik was referring to the Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) class.
Rather odd class, really...

Yeah, thanks, I meant Knight Phantom. My mistake.

axraelshelm
2007-12-06, 03:26 PM
psychic warrior thats enough

Zincorium
2007-12-06, 04:47 PM
Honestly, I've been itching to try the Swiftblade PrC from wizard's site in an actual game.

Especially with battle sorceror and Abjurant champion. The spells known issue never really hurts when you're only relying on two spells for combat effectiveness.

de-trick
2007-12-06, 05:31 PM
I like battle sorcerer, if you want him in full plate take armored caster 2 times

TheLogman
2007-12-06, 05:41 PM
Havok Mage from the Mini's handbook is fun. He can channel his spells through his melee attacks. Psychic warrior is a fan favorite, although he does more self buffs than Wizard casting. Same with the Cleric. Druid doesn't have the flashy spells of a Wizard, but a Gorilla, Dinosaur, or maybe just a bear that suddenly wraps up your legs/Ice Storms/Flame Strikes you, then beats you senseless is pretty good.

Saph
2007-12-06, 05:44 PM
Gishes can actually be pretty good. They don't have quite the spell power of a wizard or sorcerer, but they usually have significantly better defences - their mixture of classes and PrCs give them slightly better saves and much better HP than a straight caster. They're also a lot more flexible.

Abjurant Champion, from Complete Mage, is the gold standard PrC for gish builds - it's so good that it's hard to find a reason not to use it. Sublime Chord's powerful but very flavour-specific and can't be taken until level 11, which puts it out of range of most games.

My personal favourite is Paladin 2 / Battle Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Spellsword 1 / Battle Sorcerer 8. This gives you 17/20 BAB, puts you only 1 spell level behind a straight-classed Sorcerer and only a few HP behind a straight-classed Paladin, and is playable and fairly effective at every level (the only point at which it's a little weak is levels 4-5, but before and after that you'll be fine). Haven't had the chance to try it out in a game yet, though.

- Saph

Lolth
2007-12-06, 05:53 PM
You make me sad. :(

My main PC on our D&D chat (check it out!) is a Duskblade, and I don't feel like she's training wheels material.

:(

We don't allow ALL the options in the world (no Battle Sorcerers, for example), but a Duskblade is a nice mix.

Frosty
2007-12-06, 05:59 PM
I like Wizard3/Fighter1/Spellsword3/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight8

I think that's the build if I got the Spellsword requirements right. Spellsword gives a bonus feat and will allow you to lower your spell failure chance enough that if you combine with Mithril, you can wear decent armor with 0 ASF.

This build gets 18 or 17 BAB I forgot, and also gives 9th level spells.

weenie
2007-12-06, 06:14 PM
I like Wizard3/Fighter1/Spellsword3/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight8

I think that's the build if I got the Spellsword requirements right. Spellsword gives a bonus feat and will allow you to lower your spell failure chance enough that if you combine with Mithril, you can wear decent armor with 0 ASF.

This build gets 18 or 17 BAB I forgot, and also gives 9th level spells.

Why do you need armor, when you can get better bonuses via abjurant champion?

Frosty
2007-12-06, 06:29 PM
Because having an armor slot is good? I can get things like Fortification.

deadseashoals
2007-12-06, 06:30 PM
Why do you need armor, when you can get better bonuses via abjurant champion?

Abjurant champion doesn't help your armor AC unless you use greater luminous armor.

Gishes are strong sauce! The only way in which they could be considered "weak" is that multiclass gishes have a lot of times in their earlier levels where they're not so great, but once they get to start taking PrC levels, they quickly outshine any nonmagical melee classes by leaps and bounds.

bignate
2007-12-06, 06:34 PM
i must admit that this thread has just taught me what "gish" means but i have been playing them for years. i think that are great.

i think they kinda come from the old RPG video games like the dragon warrior series where the main character could fight really well and cast a good selection of spells.

i am currently playing a one with a build not mentioned on here yet but that i think is really nice, and fairly optimised...

currently: bard 4/ranger 4
goal: bard 16/ranger 4

at 20 this will give me BAB 16 and 6th level bard spells plus i am quite the skill monkey with 6 skillpoints every level plus 2 for human and 13 int and i picked up knack from the PHB2.


another gish build that i thought would be cool but havent got to is:

dwarf, fighter 1/wizard 4/runesmith 5/eldritch knight 10

this one will end ip with BAB 15, 9th level spells and casting in full plate with a shield. not to mention decent hitpoints with a good con.

Saph
2007-12-06, 07:51 PM
i must admit that this thread has just taught me what "gish" means but i have been playing them for years. i think that are great.

i think they kinda come from the old RPG video games like the dragon warrior series where the main character could fight really well and cast a good selection of spells.

The actual word 'gish' comes from the D&D githyanki. When they were introduced (in 1st- or 2nd-edition, I forget which) they were described as having a tradition of multiclassed fighter/wizards, called gish. And somehow or other the nickname caught on. :)

- Saph

Nebo_
2007-12-06, 08:05 PM
I'm currently playing a slithzerakai Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1 and he's one of my favourite characters so far. I considered battle sorcerer, but the benefits don't outweigh losing all of those spells. The strange thing is, I'm the closest thing the party has to healer at the moment since the archivist took an arrow to the brain. False life and healing potions have saved us more times than I'd like to remember.

Vael Nir
2007-12-06, 08:13 PM
Another nice Gish trick is to use Quickened Benign Transposition (a 5the level spell) in conjuntion with a fast moving familiar (such as a hawk or raven). The familiar moves up to a target with a double move if needed. Cast Quickened BT to swap places with it. Full Attack!

Our party gish uses Knight's Move for that. Combat vs. tough fighter types and a Glabrezu they were trying to protect:

Swashbuckler/Tempest (me): I tumble past the fighters... two weapon spring attack!
DM: Okay, roll damage.
*Gish Attacks nearest fighter, does hardly any damage.*

Round 2:

Me: Okay, full attack on the Glabrezu! What was its AC again? *grin*
DM: uh... 30.
Me: Okay, that's... 3 crits with the mainhand and... one hit with the offhand... sooo... *math*... 127 damage.
DM: Uh, okay, he looks like he's going to try and get the hell away from you now...
Gish: My turn! Knight's Move, full attack on the...
DM: It's dead, okay?!

Nebo_
2007-12-06, 08:31 PM
Our party gish uses Knight's Move for that. Combat vs. tough fighter types and a Glabrezu they were trying to protect:


Knight's Move is Cleric 3/ Paladin 2. How is a gish using it?

Kaelik
2007-12-06, 08:34 PM
I like Wizard3/Fighter1/Spellsword3/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight8

I think that's the build if I got the Spellsword requirements right. Spellsword gives a bonus feat and will allow you to lower your spell failure chance enough that if you combine with Mithril, you can wear decent armor with 0 ASF.

This build gets 18 or 17 BAB I forgot, and also gives 9th level spells.

This Build also does not qualify for SpellSword.

Vael Nir
2007-12-06, 09:20 PM
Knight's Move is Cleric 3/ Paladin 2. How is a gish using it?

Combining magic with blade can also be done with divine magic, ay? You're right though, it's not a gish per githzerai definition.

drunkmonk
2007-12-06, 09:41 PM
I normally dont like gish charaters or bards, but...

I recently took a NG Human (with able learner) Bard 4/Fighter 1/ Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Sublime Cord 2 through a game with some guys who also dislike bards. After a couple of sessions, I decided that I was going to play him whenever I could. Even the die hard anti bard guys in the group had to admit he was one of the best all around guys we have seen lately.

DM

Frosty
2007-12-07, 02:15 AM
This Build also does not qualify for SpellSword.

I had the build like a year ago. I forgot the spellsword's exact requirements. Maybe I ha an extra level od Wizard or something.

Kaelik
2007-12-07, 03:03 AM
I had the build like a year ago. I forgot the spellsword's exact requirements. Maybe I ha an extra level od Wizard or something.

You would need another 5 levels of Wizard before it would allow you to qualify for SpellSword.

mabriss lethe
2007-12-07, 03:33 AM
Fighter 1/ Hexblade 9/Suel Archanamach 10 is a fun progression, especially when you opt for the shadow companion replacement feature from the PHB2 instead of a familiar. Take a swipe at battle caster and practiced spellcaster feats, maybe necropolis born or soul of the north to open up spellcasting options before you learn any spells as a Hexblade. You could dip into warlock to pick up baleful utterance or one of the least essense invocations and you wouldn't need optimization. By aiming to cripple with assorted SoS spells instead of hack/slash/kill/fireball, you could have your average foe curled into the fetal position before you ever drew your sword. You don't have to be a supergish at that point, just close in for the kill.

Fun, but not very optimized.

WhiteHarness
2007-12-07, 09:26 AM
Gishes are strong sauce!

I've been trying to wrap my brain around it for several minutes, but I can't figure out what this sentence means. "Strong Sauce???"

Valairn
2007-12-07, 09:45 AM
You know how you put bbq sauce on chicken to make it taste like barbeque. You put strong sauce on a class to make it taste strong :-D. Therefore Gish's are strong because they are made out of strong sauce.

Tokiko Mima
2007-12-07, 10:28 AM
I especially like Gishes in Gestalt games. Then, everyone pretty much gets to be a Gish, unless they go some wierd Ultimate Magus/Druizard direction.

As far as non-gestalt builds, I prefer Tome of Battle, so I'd go with a standard Jade Phoenix Mage for a Gish.

Rogue 2(UA Fighter Feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue))/Wizard 2/Swordsage 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Master of the Nine 5

Only 9th level spell casting (5th level spells max) and BAB 15, but it gets 20 Manuevers from all 9 Disciplines, can have 12 Readied at a time, use 5 Stances, and has an Intitiator level of 18.

Crow
2007-12-07, 01:55 PM
My current "retired" gish is a Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight7, focused on self-buffs, dispelling and counterspelling, and a minor focus on transportation. He doesn't do much blasting at all. Fighter first, mage second.

He came out with a 17BAB/18CL. My favorite tactic is to Dimension Hop in and unleash a full attack (with power attack) in the first round. If it's a spellcaster, I do the same but rather than full attack, I drop an Antimagic Field.

ErrantX
2007-12-08, 12:50 AM
My favorite gish recipe, from bottom to top, is:

Human Fighter 2 / Wizard 5 / Knight Phantom 7 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Spellsword 1

1st - Ftr1, +1 BAB, Fighter Feat, Starting Feat, Human Feat (Ride 4)
2nd- Ftr2, +2 BAB, Fighter Feat
3rd- Wiz1, +0 BAB, Scribe Scroll, Familiar, Feat
4th- Wiz2, +1 BAB, +1 Int
5th- Wiz3, +1 BAB
6th- Wiz4, +2 BAB, Feat
7th- Wiz5, +2 BAB, Bonus Feat (Still Spell)
8th- KP1, +1 BAB, Phantom Steed, Somatic Prowess, +1 Int
9th- KP2, +2 BAB, Feat (Combat Casting)
10th- AC1, +1 BAB, Abjurant Armor, Extend Abjuration
11th- AC2, +2 BAB, Swift Abjuration
12th- AC3, +3 BAB, Feat, +1 Int
13th- AC4, +4 BAB, Arcane Boost
14th- AC5, +5 BAB, Martial Arcanist
15th- KP3, +3 BAB, Feat
16th- KP4, +4 BAB, Aspect of the Phantom, +1 Int
17th- SS1, +1 BAB, Ignore Spellfailure 10%
18th- KP5, +5 BAB, Feat
19th- KP6, +6 BAB
20th- KP7, +7 BAB, Countenance of the Phantom, +1 Int

BAB +17 (+2 Fighter, +2 Wizard, +5 Abjurant Champion, +7 Knight Phantom, +1 Spellsword)
Hit Dice: 7d10, 5d4, 8d8
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +13
Total Feats: 11 Feats (2 Fighter, 1 Human, 7 normal, 1 Metamagic)
Caster Level: 17th Wizard

1st level feats: Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility; 2nd level feat: Combat Expertise, 3rd level feat: Empower Spell; 6th- Spring Attack; 7th level bonus feat: Still Spell (required); 9th feat: Combat Casting (required); 12th level feat: Arcane Strike(CW); 15th level feat: Quicken Spell; 18th level feat: Whirlwind Attack

Key Equipment: Light armor (upgrade to Mithral Breastplate ASAP), Mithral Buckler when available (free shield AC, -5% ASP), good one-handed weapon (not important what, just a good one).

Epic Levels: Finish Knight Phantom, go Eldritch Knight from there on out and take Epic Spellcasting.

Knight Phantom is in Eberron: Five Nations, Abjurant Champion is in Complete Mage, Spellsword and Arcane Strike is in Complete Warrior.

-X

Nebo_
2007-12-08, 12:53 AM
There's no reason to not take a level of spellsword for that build. You will get more BAB than a level of wizard and +2 to two saves.

ErrantX
2007-12-08, 12:58 AM
True, I see what you're getting at, but for this specific build, that 5th level of wizard is best for the bonus feat to spend on Still Spell. This build was designed to be a good even blend, granting some powerful melee options and mixing in powerful spellcasting with a couple of the more useful metamgic feats. Arcane Strike ties it together, and pairs beautifully with Whirlwind Attack. I feel this is a good balance between sword and spell and doesn't favor either overly much. If one wanted to change out some of these feats for a different fighting style, then yes, that 5th of Wizard could be replace with Spellsword and the level 6 feat could be spent for Still Spell instead. Or you could go Spellsword for 17th level in this build and eliminate that dead level (probably the best idea for my specific build) with something useful, though 19th level goes dead. Countenance of the Phantom is useful, but it could live with being pushed to 20.

-X

Nebo_
2007-12-08, 09:12 AM
The build also seems to have 21 levels. Is that intentional?

ErrantX
2007-12-08, 10:18 AM
The build also seems to have 21 levels. Is that intentional?

*recounts* No... looks like 20 to me.

-X

SurlySeraph
2007-12-08, 10:49 AM
I love gishes. Especially divine gishes, like Paladin/Sorcerers. Beyond that, I don't have much to contribute here.

*starts carefully writing down all the suggested class progressions*

F.H. Zebedee
2007-12-08, 09:34 PM
Personally, I like divine "Gishes" and Bard based ones. Mayhaps less potent or surprising, but very fun.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-08, 11:25 PM
Factotum - 1 is nice for some extra skill points, the Factotum class Intelligence based specials using Inspiration Points and getting Martial Weapons proficiency iinstead of Fighter if pursuing Eldritch Knight.

FinalJustice
2007-12-08, 11:31 PM
For those who are into /Sorcerer or Bard Gishes, I saw a cool item in dragon compendium: Gauntlets of heartfelt blows that imbue the wearer's weapon with bonus fire damage equal to his charisma bonus, for the price of 12,000 po. Nasty even for charismatic non-gishes like Paladins, Swashbucklers and whatever. Dashing Swordsman anyone? =D

Valairn
2007-12-10, 12:48 PM
I was working on a build last night, and I came up with this little gem.

Wizard 5 / Crusader 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 4 / Abj. Champ 5 / JPM 5

Take the feat Arcane Disciple(Competition) to grant access to the competition domain, giving you Righteous Might and Divine Power, Abj. Champ 5 makes your caster level equal to your BaB.

Contingent spell grants you Righteous Might and Divine power when you need it. Arcane Strike feat + Smiting Spell + Jade Phoenix mages arcane strike ability, give you the ability to drop a lot of damage dice. Then select the Aura of Chaos stance from Devoted Spirit, turning you into a righteous killing machine with 9th level spells.

Pretty tasty as far as gishes go.

Soepvork
2007-12-11, 05:13 AM
I've been thinking about Paladin (of Tyranny/Slaughter) 2 / Hexblade 2 / Sorceror 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champion 5/ PrC 9 lately.

With the last PrC probably Eldritch Knight or some d8-medium BAB-full caster progression PrC.

What do you guys think?

Nebo_
2007-12-11, 07:10 AM
I've been thinking about Paladin (of Tyranny/Slaughter) 2 / Hexblade 2 / Sorceror 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champion 5/ PrC 9 lately.

With the last PrC probably Eldritch Knight or some d8-medium BAB-full caster progression PrC.

What do you guys think?

It loses too many caster levels. Replace the hexblade with more sorcerer.

Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom or Eldritch Knight 8

Droodle
2007-12-11, 08:10 AM
My favorite Gish build? Cleric 20.:smallbiggrin:

Soepvork
2007-12-11, 09:13 AM
It loses too many caster levels. Replace the hexblade with more sorcerer.

Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom or Eldritch Knight 8

Maybe I should have been more specific, I planned it for a, basically, non-TOB melee-er with some extra tricks up his sleeve rather than pretending to be a near-full caster :).

Basically, the idea was to use Class Features (spells like Greater Luminous Armor and Shield for AC, divine grace and arcane resistance for saves) for defenses, and feats (and some spells) for offense.

Leon
2007-12-11, 09:43 AM
Pure Battle Sorcerers suit me, but anyother mix that allows for the Art of Spell and Melee is good

The Mormegil
2007-12-11, 10:03 AM
Well, my gish PC is far from optimized (I mean, I actually got a level dip into dwarven defensor!!) is here below, but let me tell you, it's fun. I drop over 600 damages in a full attack on a low touch AC opponent (I hit only thanks to our bard with inspire courage +12 BTW) thanks to Wraithstrike (surprised it didn't come up until now...) and Bite of the Weretiger's Power Attack. I'm no caster, but I can cast. :smallwink:

Golden Dwarf Fgt 2 / Battle Sor 4 / AbjCh 5 / SpSw 3 / DwDef 1 / EK 4. Going into epic soon!!!

Anyway, two things:
1) spells for gishes are: Wraithstrike (gotta love it), Bites of something, Shield, Heroics (bonus feats? Now focus yours on spellcasting), Ironguard (metal immune? Geez, you are unbeatable), Indomitability (save you once), Sirine's Grace (Cha to AC, plus some other bonuses, only bards and druids though).

2) my next gish build: cheesy, but quite fine. Based on a twist: Alternative Spell Source + Battle Blessing to cast every spell quickened. It could work, as well as it could not, our DM allowed it (under the effect of a drug, probably, but still)... The PC works anyway, just cut off a Paladin level and take Sublime Chord 2, then substitute Battle Blessing with Arcane Disciple (competition, time, spell, whathaveyou).

Bard 2 Paladin 4 AbCh 4 Spellsword 1 Sublime Chord 1 IotSV 7 Ab Ch +1.

Feats: Battle Blessing, Alternative Spell Source, Melodic Casting, Snowflake Wardance, Combat Casting, Spell Focus, Greater SF, Skill Focus. With two flaws: Words of Creation, Music of the Heart.

Pretty nice, but loses fourth attack. In exchange of IotSV. You could swap it out for EK... but you lose 9th level casting.

Another good build is, using ToB, Bard 2 SwSa 2 Pal 2 AbCh 5 SuCh 1 JPhM 8. No 9th level spellcasting but anyway... 8th level manoeuvres...

Thrawn183
2007-12-11, 05:59 PM
You make me sad. :(

My main PC on our D&D chat (check it out!) is a Duskblade, and I don't feel like she's training wheels material.

:(

We don't allow ALL the options in the world (no Battle Sorcerers, for example), but a Duskblade is a nice mix.

*ahem*, I meant no insult to the class. It is great fun. I love playing Duskblades. What I meant to communicate is that the Duskblade is just as good for starting players as it is for experienced one's. No paging through huge numbers of books to find all the best combinations and such. Like ToB, a Duskblade is pretty decent right from the get-go.

shaggz076
2007-12-12, 11:55 AM
Does anyone remember the old Pool of Radiance game from way back when? It was on PC and Nintendo (The original). I used to love making a Fighter/Mage/Theif on there and trying to beat the game with a single character. Oddly enough I was able to beat the game that way eaiser than with normal parties. Back the Sleep was the bomb too!

Crow
2007-12-28, 04:25 PM
Does anyone remember the old Pool of Radiance game from way back when? It was on PC and Nintendo (The original). I used to love making a Fighter/Mage/Theif on there and trying to beat the game with a single character. Oddly enough I was able to beat the game that way eaiser than with normal parties. Back the Sleep was the bomb too!

I did that in Baldur's Gate, but I had a helluva time with it. Lots of reloads and one-use items being used in that one...

Wordmiser
2007-12-28, 10:05 PM
I have to say that the Font of Inspiration feat has made me lazy build-wise... the Factotum now does everything I want in a character.

Short of that, I'll usually use the Chameleon (which honestly has identical flexability).

As far as Gishes, I love 'em. Since I was introduced to 3.5, I've played little beside Bards, Clerics, Druids, Knight-of-the-Arcane-Order Pallys/Rangers and multiclassed Wizards.

My favorite character [both mechanically and in-character] in a normal game was a Wu Jen/Swiftblade. Maybe it's not as powerful as a Wizard's, but the Wu Jen's spells are distinct. Especially in a group which had never played the class much attention.

I've been wanting to try something along the lines of Bard/Spellsword/Sublime Chord/Spellsword, but I still haven't had the chance. Melee Bards are fun and channeled spells are fun... Combining them could only lead to awesomeness in its purest form.

Once in a gestalt game (20th level... farcically high-powered... player character abilities only came into play three or four times apiece through six sessions... more a game of "Murder Mystery" than anything else) I played a Archivist 20//Duskblade 3/Warblade 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eternal Blade 10... the build struck me as "very cool."

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-28, 10:38 PM
While unfamiliar with the term 'Gish'...I've been a fan of Fighter/Mage since I started playing DnD. In first ed, through our misreading of the rules or the fact that it was possible elves could multiclass F/M and cast in full armor wielding sword and shield without penalty...a wonderous thing. Sure you were behind in levels since you were splitting XP and they weren't, but damnit...it was cool. Screw optimization...doing both rocked. While not the best one could eek out...it was strong enough to never really ever be useless.

2nd and 3rd ed were just as good for making a decent fighter/mage...hell, priests were pretty much F/M with holy magic in 3.0/3.5...

One of the great things about the 'gish' in my opinion is that you can freely prepare any spell and know that even if your spells aren't ideal, you will never be useless in combat since you can just join in the melee. You never 'run dry' cause your melee is pretty much on par with the fighter (if you built right).

While it takes some good rolls to excell at the 'gish'...it isn't the most important thing...most important is to be crafty in using what you have. And as a Fighter and a mage, what you have are pretty much all the options in the game...

Akennedy
2007-12-29, 09:27 AM
In my campaigns, I houserule that you can enter a PrC on the level in which you meet the prereqs, so you can enter PrC's sooner. I do this mainly because very rarely do my campaigns extend beyond level 7 or so. However, this REALLY helps when making a gish, because your power level accelerates at around level 5-ish rather than 6 or 7-ish.

Currently, I'm playing a Dwarf Ftr 1/Wiz 3/Runesmith 1/Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champion 5/Knight Phantom 9. Well, that's my plan anyway. I'm only level 6 now, and starting to get amazing! (Muahahaha!)

But I love gish's. I need to wear armor though. I love the idea of wearing a full plate, swinging a sharpened chunk of metal and throwing a fireball from time to time. Yes, his class levels are insanely optimized, and I will admit I am a bit of a power gamer, but I would say I have to, to keep up on the power-level of my Gaming Group.
Gahh... now I wanna play...