What does Purify Food and Drink do to...

[SangoProduction]

...foods and drinks that require fermentation as part of their typical preparation, like sauerkraut or beer?

Obviously it's D&D magic, so it does what is "expected" for it to do.

But I'm here to ask the totally scientific question of what do you expect it to do.

[SirNibbles]

Sauerkraut is not spoiled, rotten, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated, thus it must be unaffected.

Beer is not food, nor is it water, thus it must be unaffected. You could make the argument that it is poisoned water, in which case the alcohol (poison, supposedly, though the source of that rule eludes me) would be removed.

[Chronos]

It'd halt any further fermentation (at least, until new yeast or whatever spores made their way into it), and it'd render the product fit for human consumption (which it probably already was). So, very little change.

[redking]

Purify spells might rid the fermented product of any spoilage.

As a DM, I'd probably allow a number of effects in addition to the spell description. I'd codify it like this:

1. Transmuting Unsafe Liquids to Water: This spell could feasibly be utilized to turn various potentially unsafe or undesirable liquids into pure water. Examples might include strong alcohols, poisonous liquids, or simply beverages that one finds unpalatable.

2. Removal of Spices or Flavors: One creative use of this spell could be to remove potent flavors, spices, or seasonings from food. It might transform a spicy meal into a mild one or a bitter beverage into a normal one.

3. Removing Allergenic Substances: Theoretically, the spell could be used to eliminate allergenic substances from food or drink, making it safe for individuals with food allergies or sensitivities.

4. Neutralizing Drugs or Toxins: If a consumable has been tainted with a drug or toxin, this spell could potentially render it harmless. This might cover everything from hallucinogens to sedatives to poisons.

[Gruftzwerg]

Sauerkraut is not spoiled, rotten, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated, thus it must be unaffected.

Beer is not food, nor is it water, thus it must be unaffected. You could make the argument that it is poisoned water, in which case the alcohol (poison, supposedly, though the source of that rule eludes me) would be removed.

Wait what?

Try to tell that to a Bavarian where beer is categorized as staple food by law...^^
Some companies still have vending machines with beer there for their employers..

Beer also has the nickname "liquid-bread" here in Germany.

My vote goes to that beer is considered as food for the sake of the discussion! ^^

edit:
barkeeper: "Who ordered the non-alcoholic beer here???"

[Ashtagon]

#3 sounds like a variant on the "destroy nuts" spell.

I mean, nuts are a common allergen after all, and it's not like there's anything BUT nut in them.

Given that gluten and yeast alike are both also common allergens, it's also not clear what it would do to bread. I guess bread gets turned into some kind of potato/rice flour and bicarbonate cake.

[Chronos]

We've had threads before on how different species have different notions of what food is "fit to eat", and the question of whether the Purify Food and Drink spell is based on human standards of edibility, or if it's based on whoever's casting it. If the latter, then a celiac caster would remove gluten with the spell, but most casters wouldn't.

[Tzardok]

Purify Food and Drink is a divine spell, so we've got option three: whatever the god thinks is best. For example, a god that preaches abstinence would cause alcohol to become water, but that's not going to fly for any version of the spell granted by a dwarven deity.

[Satinavian]

...foods and drinks that require fermentation as part of their typical preparation, like sauerkraut or beer?

Obviously it's D&D magic, so it does what is "expected" for it to do.

But I'm here to ask the totally scientific question of what do you expect it to do.
Drawing inspiration from TDE : There are different versions of this spell that reverse such effects or not, depending on the culinary traditions of their culture. One of the most common version in TDE does revert any kind of alcohol and destroys many cheese.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wait what?Alcohol is, in fact, highly toxic. It's yeast urine, and consuming more than small amounts of it (eww) can and possibly will kill you. The "buzz" you get from drinking is your body telling you there's something damaging it, and passing out from too much alcohol is a life-threatening medical emergency. Even small amounts can damage organs, including causing irreversible brain damage.*

Human stupidity, ignorance, and/or greed don't somehow alter the reality of physics, chemistry, or biology.

Purify food and drink would 100% turn any alcoholic beverage into a non-alcoholic one. Maybe into non-alcoholic beer (or mojitos or whatever), or maybe into water. Who knows? It's magic!

Alcohol poisoning is a serious — and sometimes deadly — result of drinking large amounts of alcohol in a short period of time. Drinking too much too quickly can affect breathing, heart rate, body temperature and gag reflex. In some cases, this can lead to a coma and death.
--The Mayo Clinic

Severe complications can result from alcohol poisoning, including:
*Choking. Alcohol may cause vomiting. Because it depresses the gag reflex, this increases the risk of choking on vomit if a person passes out.
*Stopping breathing. Accidentally inhaling vomit into the lungs can lead to a dangerous or fatal interruption of breathing, also known as asphyxiation.
*Severe loss of fluids. Vomiting can result in severe dehydration, which happens when the body doesn't have enough water and other fluids. This can lead to dangerously low blood pressure and a fast heart rate.
*Seizures. The blood sugar level may drop low enough to cause seizures.
*Hypothermia. The body temperature may drop so low that it leads to cardiac arrest.
*Unusual heartbeat. Alcohol poisoning can cause a heartbeat that is not regular. It can even cause the heart to stop.
*Brain damage. Heavy drinking may cause brain damage that can't be reversed.
*Death. Any of the issues above can lead to death.
--The Mayo Clinic

[wilphe]

Purify Food and Drink is a divine spell, so we've got option three: whatever the god thinks is best. For example, a god that preaches abstinence would cause alcohol to become water, but that's not going to fly for any version of the spell granted by a dwarven deity.

"it was inferior human beer, I had to save you from drinking it, it was practically water anyway"

[Tzardok]

"it was inferior human beer, I had to save you from drinking it, it was practically water anyway"

In that case I'd expect the spell to remove the water, not the alcohol.

[SirNibbles]

Wait what?

Try to tell that to a Bavarian where beer is categorized as staple food by law...^^
Some companies still have vending machines with beer there for their employers..

Beer also has the nickname "liquid-bread" here in Germany.

My vote goes to that beer is considered as food for the sake of the discussion! ^^

edit:
barkeeper: "Who ordered the non-alcoholic beer here???"

Bavarian law may say it's food, but Arms and Equipment Guide, page 32 classes it as a drink- at least in the case of ale, so lagers are not covered by the rules at all. Many other sources such as the PHB and DMG do not refer to beer at all, only ale. DMG II does refer to beer, but the only lagers mentioned are villagers.

_

Also, here is a tiny snippet which directly claims that alcohols are poisons:




Like alcoholic drinks, jhuild is technically a poison


Unapproachable East, page 137


I do not know if there is any other source that says 'alcohol is poison'.

_

I'm somewhat inspired to do a guide to alcohol, but I know I don't have the time.

[Biggus]

Bavarian law may say it's food, but Arms and Equipment Guide, page 32 classes it as a drink- at least in the case of ale, so lagers are not covered by the rules at all.
[...]
I do not know if there is any other source that says 'alcohol is poison'.


If you read to the bottom of A&EG p.32 it refers to alcohol poisoning and even provides a mechanism for how it can kill you...

[SirNibbles]

If you read to the bottom of A&EG p.32 it refers to alcohol poisoning and even provides a mechanism for how it can kill you...

The fact that alcohol poisoning exists does not mean that alcohol is poison. Ridiculous pedantry, I know, but I stand behind it.

[loky1109]

You should remember, spell isn't some force of nature, it's a tool. Person who developed it decided what it should do. It could be simple settings (remove any parasites, pathogens, poisons, etc, this may include or not include alcohol), or something more complex (if caster is allergic - remove allergens, if he has some vows - remove things that will break these vows, if caster could eat kopalchen - not remove ptomaine, etc), or even some sort of "manual control" conscious or unconscious (today I want casu marzu, so spell, please, doesn't remove larvae from my cheese as you did yesterday, or, maybe, caster sincerely believes that broccoli is poison... well, spell removes all broccoli from food).

All these are possible options.

[Chronos]

SirNibbles, do you have a pedantic argument for how alcohol isn't a poison, then? If on the one hand, you have lots of evidence of multiple different kinds that say it is a poison, and on the other hand, you just have you saying "Well I'm going to be pedantic", then that's not much of an argument. What is the pedantry you're relying on?

[SirNibbles]

SirNibbles, do you have a pedantic argument for how alcohol isn't a poison, then? If on the one hand, you have lots of evidence of multiple different kinds that say it is a poison, and on the other hand, you just have you saying "Well I'm going to be pedantic", then that's not much of an argument. What is the pedantry you're relying on?

My claim is that alcohol is a poison because it is stated as such in certain sources. I also meant that saying 'alcohol poisoning exists' is not one of these sources because it doesn't say 'alcohol is poison'.