Scrolls, wands, and spells with caster-dependent effects. How do they work?

[H_H_F_F]

There are quite a few spells that have a certain unusual effect if the caster is... something. Many spells have an improved effect if the caster is dragonblooded. Lore of the gods is twice as strong if your deity has the knowledge domain. I'm sure there are plenty more such examples.

How does this work for spell-trigger items? Let's say both the creator and the user of a spell-trigger item are dragonblooded. Does the spell count as being cast by a dragonblooded creature?

If so, what if just the creator fits the bill? Or just the user?

[Saintheart]

You might have a Schrodinger's Cat situation where the item has two different gp values at the same time. An item which can only be used by a given class or alignment gets (at least a recommended) 30% discount on its creation price.

As for me, I'd interpret that absent a magic staff, an item takes on the qualities of the original maker. Magic staffs are the only core magic item that is affected by the current stats or abilities of its wielder. Everything else basically gets its price set on creation. And even then the rule is that staves only access the wielder's ability score and feats to set the staff's DC and (it seems?) caster level. Absent one obscure feat, you can't use metamagic on a spell cast from a staff, for example.

[Crake]

As for me, I'd interpret that absent a magic staff, an item takes on the qualities of the original maker. Magic staffs are the only core magic item that is affected by the current stats or abilities of its wielder. Everything else basically gets its price set on creation. And even then the rule is that staves only access the wielder's ability score and feats to set the staff's DC and (it seems?) caster level. Absent one obscure feat, you can't use metamagic on a spell cast from a staff, for example.

This is the rule for spell completion items (wands and staves in this circumstance), spell COMPLETION items however (like scrolls), use all the stats, and have all the decisions made about the spell done by the one casting from the scroll. In essence, when casting from a scroll, it is as if you yourself cast it at the caster level determined by the scroll

[Asmotherion]

Item price, caster level etc depend on the crafter.

So, if the original crafter was dragonblooded, I'd argue the price would be higher and it would have an extra caster level.

[H_H_F_F]

Item price, caster level etc depend on the crafter.

So, if the original crafter was dragonblooded, I'd argue the price would be higher and it would have an extra caster level.

Ah, but then, if the original crafter of a lore of the gods wand worshipped a god with the knowledge domain, does the wand give +10 instead of +5 while costing the exact same?

[Harrow]

This is going to be, at best, a controversial hot take. At worst, someone will cite a rule that I've somehow missed and I'm completely wrong. But until someone can show me a rule that says otherwise: all that matters is whether the character using the item meets the spell's requirements, because they are the one casting the spell. The rules say you don't use your caster level, but the item's. The rules also say that, except with staves, you use the minimum stat needed to cast the spell to determine save DCs. That's all they specify that you change, so everything else stays the same as the caster, which, I reiterate, is the person using the item.

I know I'm going to get some push-back on this. "You're not casting the spell with a scroll, the person who made it is." Or even "The scroll itself is the one casting the spell." Well, let me ask then, when you cast Scorching Ray from a scroll, whose ranged attack bonus do you use? If you cast Divine Power, whose character level does your BAB become equal to? That one's a bit of a trick question, because it's a "personal" range spell, so do you get a boost at all? If you use a scroll of Celerity, who gets the bonus action, and who is dazed on their next turn?

The answer to all of those seems obvious to me. "The person using the scroll." So, if you've got a scroll of Spiritual Weapon, it follows that it uses your BAB, because the spell says to use the caster's and the magic item rules never contradict that. If you're using Lore of the Gods, the bonus you get is determined by your deity, regardless of whether you're casting it from spell slots or a scroll. A caster level boost would depend on the wording. "Raises your caster level by +1" like an orange ioun stone, would have no effect. "This spell is cast at +1 caster level if cast by X" on the other hand would absolutely work, as long as the person using the scroll met the requirement. I'd even go so far as to say the spell Spell Enhancer would work on a scroll, as it effects "the next spell you cast".

[Asmotherion]

Ah, but then, if the original crafter of a lore of the gods wand worshipped a god with the knowledge domain, does the wand give +10 instead of +5 while costing the exact same?

I honestly have no clue. I suppose it's up to the DM; As a DM I'd price it accordingly though, if it's any help at all...

[smetzger]

This is the rule for spell completion items (wands and staves in this circumstance), spell COMPLETION items however (like scrolls), use all the stats, and have all the decisions made about the spell done by the one casting from the scroll. In essence, when casting from a scroll, it is as if you yourself cast it at the caster level determined by the scroll

uhmmm... that's not how scrolls work. Scrolls have the caster level determined at scribing time...

Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise.

[Crake]

uhmmm... that's not how scrolls work. Scrolls have the caster level determined at scribing time...

Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise.

Did you miss reading the last line of my post?


In essence, when casting from a scroll, it is as if you yourself cast it at the caster level determined by the scroll